Ajeel can simply hit Natsu before he burned up the sand. Erza had the means of scattering Ajeel's sand, but hat doesn't mean she could react to every one of his attacks. Invel might be able to freeze Natsu's fire. That doesn't mean Ajeel can't dissolve Invel's ice. Ajeel isn't trying to melt the ice. Ajeel is literally just absorbing the water out of the ice, and this has nothing to do with heat or temperature.
Again, how does Invel have higher attack power than Ajeel? His attacks don't do any more damage. It's not like Natsu is going to blow out sands of death the same way he blew out Ant Lion's pit. Invel froze some of base Natsu's flames. For the amount of flames Natsu generated, do you not think sands of death would bury Natsu and smother out his flames? Even if Natsu gets out of it, wouldn't it have the effect of negating Natsu's flames. Has Invel actually frozen over an area the size of sands of death? Can Invel's ice kill someone in the fashion Ajeel describes his sands of death being capable of?
Bacchus could definitely do what Laxus did. Against a light-weight like Wahl, that is.
Either way, it still stands that Bacchus has done more physical damage than Laxus has with his bare hands.
Okay, so just so we're clear...
Baccus, the person who lost due to injuring his hands because he couldn't stand to hit scaly skin, is going to floor a Spriggan 12 member made out of metal. Lightning resistance or not, Wahl still managed to trade blows with Laxus.
Going soley by feats Laxus is definitely above Jellal. Jellal's fight was plot device followed by him one-shotting a Spriggan whilst Laxus had a long drawn out fight whilst handicapped which allowed him to show a ton more than Jellal could.
Ajeel can simply hit Natsu before he burned up the sand. Erza had the means of scattering Ajeel's sand, but hat doesn't mean she could react to every one of his attacks. Invel might be able to freeze Natsu's fire. That doesn't mean Ajeel can't dissolve Invel's ice. Ajeel isn't trying to melt the ice. Ajeel is literally just absorbing the water out of the ice. That's a magical property of his sand.
Again, how does Invel have higher attack power than Ajeel? Has Invel actually frozen over an area the size of sands of death? It's not like Natsu is going to blow out sands of death the same way he blew out Ant Lion's pit. Invel froze some of base Natsu's flames. For the amount of flames Natsu generated, do you not think sands of death would bury Natsu and smother out his flames? Even if Natsu gets out of it, wouldn't it have the effect of negating Natsu's flames.
Okay, so just so we're clear... Baccus the person who lost due to injuring his hands because he couldn't stand to hit scaly skin...Is going to floor a Spriggan 12 member made out of metal.
As for the first part of your post, we clearly don't agree. So I'll just leave it as that because I don't want to get too off-topic (it's too late for that anyways).
In the second part of your post, I never said Bacchus can beat Wahl...
The reason we got here in the first place is because you said that Wahl has great durability since he was able to tank Laxus' physical attacks.
But actually, Laxus doesn't have significant physical strength and Wahl doesn't have high durability.
The only reason why Wahl was standing as long as he could is because of his immunity to lightning.
But I'll give you the last word. I don't think we are gonna agree and there is no point for me to argue any further.
People are starting to believe that invel is a low tier spriggan now. FDKM Natsu got frozen by invel. Sure, he melted his ice but it took time to do it, so in a 1v1 scenario he would be dead. Remember that ice lock steals rational thoughts away from you. I doubt killing yourself is rational, no wonder they broke it. Current battlefield >> magnolia, he created a blizzard cold enough to freeze throughout the entire battlefield. Invel is severely injured, so a boosted DeS CQC gray beating him is no surprise. He’s using his magic completely differently, not just boosting his ice make. This is believable because invel was caught off guard against gray’s devil slaying magic. He still managed to stop grays tattoo mode sword effortlessly, whilst injured.
FDKM Natsu got frozen ? it's just base Natsu.
He took time to free himself for plot reasons.
Natsu can 1 shot Invel just like Neinhart and Jacob
Freezing fire dragon roar isn't impressive either.
Invel has only freezing feats and 0 compact skills. lame Spriggan. The weakest
Personally, I interpret power levels by measuring a character's Attack Power, Defense, Speed, Versatility, Intelligence, and Magic Power. Most of these will be determined by Feats, but I do take Hype and Portrayal into consideration.
In my opinion, Feats > Portrayal > Legitimate Hype. As you can tell, I don't accept illegitimate hype. For me, legitimate hype is when something about a character has been stated multiple times by other characters or when the character themselves make a claim and have some sort of feat to back it up. Illegitimate hype is when a characters says something one time without any basis for it or when there is a contradiction to one's words/actions.
Going back to my criteria, it goes a little something like this: Attack Power & Defense > Speed & Magic Power > Versatility & Intelligence. Note that this is only a general idea and not the exact order.
Also, I factor in Conditions when we are comparing two more characters. This can be effectiveness, environmental, or just due to the nature of a one's magic. Some will be more impactful than others depending on the situation.
This I never understood.
How can you possibly compare two people who never fought each other, never came across the same opponent. How could you compare their attack power or durability or speed?
For example gray long sword did reasonable damage to invel
All goi attacks combined barely fazed Serena at all
Ezra water sword did alot of damage to ajeel
How could you possibly compare these attacks, especially if you are ignoring the hype of them being around each other level
And what if there is no cannon comparison, no feat or hype
Like in gmg
Isd gajeel roar compared to Minerva yade rabda (that yakeeno god magic) compared with maybe jura Mt fugti
Minerva and jura attacks were featless but they had alot of hype
Rouge was very weak, though where shadow rouge was, no one knows
So how would you compare these attacks.
Same way how could you possibly compare speed or any other stat.
Again, I disagree. Why can't both be true? In theory, a power-up should increase a mage's MP while also burning through it more quickly. It wouldn't make sense if it just burns through your MP more quickly.
Here is how I look at it. For Natsu to achieve DF, his body needs high levels of magic power. In the beginning of the series, he achieved this by consuming Etherion, thereby increasing his MP as well. Now, Natsu doesn't need Etherion because he learned how to "will it". But his body still needs a certain amount of MP to activate Dragon Force. So when Natsu enters DF now, what his body essentially does is increase the intake of ethernano, thereby increasing his MP in order to compensate for attack power.
In my opinion, this goes for pretty much every single character who uses a power-up including Mirajane and Erza. When they use Alegria Soul or Nakagami Armor, their bodies are taking in more energy so that they can withstand such power. At the same time though, their MP is also draining at a faster pace.
Well we can agree to disagree. I tend to think that energy can't be made out of nowhere. I'm willing to speculate that a dragons physiology is better at drawing in ethernano than a human's, but it's speculation. The amount of MP in ones' container is their MP, imo. Tenrou LFD Natsu for example was able to consume all of the MP Laxus gave him. Tenrou LFD's total MP in his container would have been around the same as Laxus' before he started fighting (maybe a little more). However Natsu could burn through it quite quickly - performing at a higher level than Laxus. The same goes for ISD Gajeel at the GMG... he was able to stomp an opponent by taking in some of his shadows.
On the DF needing a certain level of MP, I can agree to that, to some extent. Natsu probably got a brief surge of MP thru PoF vs EF Mard. However you only need to be current Wendy level for MP to trigger Dragon Force. She can do so freely.
That doesn't make any sense though... Silver already has more MP than LFD Natsu which is why he is stronger. How would adding Gray and Silver's MP together equal Natsu? I think DeS Gray is being severely underrated. When demonized, he should be able to match DF Natsu (at least in the Tartaros Arc).
I am talking strictly about performance. If everything was about how much MP someone has, then people like Natsu or Gray would just run from a Spriggan. Yet their attitude is "we won't know until we try" << Gray's words when Makarov told him to back off from Ajeel. Natsu or Gray are not packing the MP of a Spriggan, well not at that point of the arc anyway.
I might be underrating Gray... but I'm applying the same degree of assessment with him as I would anyone else. MP is important, but the absolute most important thing is performance, in a battle manga.
Actually, I don't think DF Natsu would wipe the floor with Silver back in Tartaros Arc. LFD Natsu was barely on Etherious Tempesta's level. And DF Natsu was struggling against Mard Geer. So if I were to guess, he would have been near Silver's power level. Even if he was a little stronger, it wouldn't be that noticeable of a difference.
Magic power is actually one of the more important stats when it comes to power ranking. So, personally, I think starting off with MP is not necessarily starting at the wrong end.
I tend to believe DF Natsu can outfight Gildarts for the limited time he had it activated. He can overwhelm Mard, so he could overwhelm Gildarts or Hades. Silver isn't someone who has a chance against Hades or Gildarts.
I agree MP is important... I just think performance is basically the product of all stats. Someone's MP will drive their performance, but MP doesn't decide every battle. However I can understand that line of thinking of yours, and I am not saying it's incorrect (I disagree, that's all).
Natsu can oneshot Invel? Invel can kick Natsu via hax
This Invel downplaying is getting old. Dude is Zeref's right hand man, showed CQC feats, Solid Freezing feats, and casually done it on a Serious Base Natsu. Suggesting he's the weakest is pretty comical considering Neinhart and Jacob have him beat.
Invel is a mid tier spriggan, slightly above or around Ajeel's equal.
Yea, serious Base Natsu, not going all out. I mean you have to pretty damn oblivious/need to buy glasses, if you're suggesting Invel is oneshottable to Base Natsu, amongst other bullshit. Invel can kick Natsu's ass via hax. If he can freeze a serious Base Natsu casually, he can definitely take on Natsu even more, provided he puts blizzard+ a lot more MP in his game.
Yea, serious Base Natsu, not going all out. I mean you have to pretty damn oblivious/need to buy glasses, if you're suggesting Invel is oneshottable to Base Natsu, amongst other bullshit. Invel can kick Natsu's ass via hax. If he can freeze a serious Base Natsu casually, he can definitely take on Natsu even more, provided he puts blizzard+ a lot more MP in his game.
Well no, there is a way for Natsu to one shot Invel in his base form. Get close, punch him in the glasses, shatter the glass, then grind it in. See how well Invel talks when he has molten glass in his eyes...
But yeah Invel ain't Prettyboy, Gray and Natsu are equals when it comes to power so if Gray can't one shot him. Neither will Natsu.
Base Wahl was defeating Minerva while Bradman had to go all out to defeat Rogue. I think its way more likely that Wahl is simply a head above Bradman then Rogue being a head over Minerva (if anything Minerva would be a head over Rogue).
In regards to Wahls durability. Lightning is used to enhanced Laxuses own strength so that he hits harder, I fail to see why immunity to lightning would matter. Its no different then saying that Laxus wouldn't get faster from lightning coat because Wahl is immune to lightning........even if that wasn't the case no-selling physical attack from Laxus is still something impressive, Natsu one-shotted Neinhart like that.
Jellal and Laxus are more or less equals, but in my personal opinion Jellal has always been slightly stronger than Laxus:
-He had an easier time against Jura, who Laxus had to defeat high diff.
-He easily defeated all the Oracion Seis members when it required an Alliance of all the Guilds to defeat them before;keep in mind that Cobra in the GMG had shown no signs of weakening and was keeping up with his Dragon as well as the other Slayers, that also extends to Dragon Slayers like Laxus and Gajeel
-Jellal is incredibly fast, shown as being able to react to an instantaneous attack from Neinhart (Neinhart cast his magical blast as fast as Laxus's nuke against Ajeel), and that's Jellal without using any speed enhancing techniques like Meteor. If he hadn't been so focused on trying to protect Kagura then he would have easily dodged or even countered that attack.
Base Natsu flames? Wtf is that even mean? Are you implying his flames get hotter in FDKM mode? Where's your evidence?
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Apparently Natsu can one shot any spriggan with an attack that can be seen from a mile away. Natsu only took out the GOW because it wasn't moving, and he only took out Jacob because they were falling. You can't even do anything if your falling down and you have a person directly above you. Natsu has never shown to be able to run a few meters and launch that attack. And it wouldn't mean jack shit because Invel can freeze it. Natsu is not on the spriggan level, the f****** spoilers literally say Natsu isn't capable of taking on the Spriggan 12. Is that enough proof fur you or is FDKM the strongest thing? Because I'm pretty sure even if Natsu was in the mode, Gildarts would still blitz stomp Natsu in seconds.
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Dimaria would give Brandish the hands. She stops time and chops her head off, her durability sucks aswell. I don't care if Brandish can throw gravel and turn each one into a mountain, it doesn't mean jack shit if time is stopped. What is the celestial king going to do?
Sry but the Natsu hate just reeks out of that post.
First off,
In BDKM, he literally he enters the "Igneel Mode" that means his flames would have the heat of Igneels flames when he roared Acno.
Those are the flames of the fire dragon king. Apparently, Natsus flames get hotter the more magic he has so There is NO way BDKM Flames are just as hot as his base flames.
If you say the flames themselves aren't hotter then the BDKM is a magical power boost.
In that case Natsu's flames get hotter cuz he has more MP.
If you say it isn't a MP boost then the only thing that would make BDKM just SOMEWHAT useful is that his flames get hotter.
So yes, BDKM flames are hotter then base flames.
And for the evidence,
Jacob vs. Natsu fight. In the guild Natsu punched jacob with his base flames and he didn't complain about the heat in the slightest.
When they were punched outside Natsu used BDKM and he literally nearly couldn't even scream cuz of the heat. So here's your evidence.
Also u said that Natsu himdelf wouldn't have beaten Ikutsunagi?
Bull. Utter bull. Please go get some information and don't act out of rage or hate.
Also in the fight with Jacob he wasn't above of Jacob. Where did u get that info? Are we talking about FT? Wich manga are u reading? Tell to care?
Cuz it clearly isn't FT.
Natsu and Jacob were thrown in a straight line. So Natsu was NOT above him.
And I'm sure that Natsu could use demolition fist if he runs a few metres.
Or wait, you say he couldn't? Where's your evidence.
He is clearly on Spriggan level and that's it.
As for the enhanced Nineheart.
I wonder how strong he will be :/
The only thing I'm excited about is what Nineheart can do, and how Gray trashes Invel. The other things don't interest me in the slightest.
This chapter, cuz we already know what'll happen, is the biggest dissapointment since FT's beginning.
I can't really describe how HARD Mashima fucked up. Dead people stay dead. Learn that, you dumbass of an Mangaka.
I really am enraged.
It's a pity. Normally a 100th chapter should be epicness personified. And what does he do? He ruins it. Wow, Gray get's to know END's indentity. And now?
What of it? In chaptwr 500 i would have expected something much more epic. Like END awakening. Or some Acno backstory would've been better than Gray getting some info. It sucks.
I also look somewhat forward to Dimarias future actions. And a bit now what Gray will do but well.
I think my interest in FT is fading. Here I thought FT's maybe last arc would get something special. But in reality, from the overhyped enemies to the "deaths", everything is a more than huge dissapointment.
I mean, like, Mashima is seeing what his fans want, he is seeing that sooo many Fans don't like his course of action. So why the heck does he do that?
Juvias "revival" is really the worst.
Gajeels too. I mean yeah he was dragged into hell, but miss eileen just by coincendce teleports just HIM, a single person, whose body was, as stated by himself, dissipated into anti magic particles, and throws him out of hell, regenerates his body, and let's him live his life.
And the worst thing is, she stated the teleportations were randomly, so WHY THE FUCK did it get gajeel?
Oh man, the more I write, the more I get enraged.
I really like the characters don't misunderstand me. But he should pull the stick out of his ass and let the dead stay dead.
Sry but the Natsu hate just reeks out of that post.
First off,
In BDKM, he literally he enters the "Igneel Mode" that means his flames would have the heat of Igneels flames when he roared Acno.
Those are the flames of the fire dragon king. Apparently, Natsus flames get hotter the more magic he has so There is NO way BDKM Flames are just as hot as his base flames.
If you say the flames themselves aren't hotter then the BDKM is a magical power boost.
In that case Natsu's flames get hotter cuz he has more MP.
If you say it isn't a MP boost then the only thing that would make BDKM just SOMEWHAT useful is that his flames get hotter.
So yes, BDKM flames are hotter then base flames.
And for the evidence,
Jacob vs. Natsu fight. In the guild Natsu punched jacob with his base flames and he didn't complain about the heat in the slightest.
When they were punched outside Natsu used BDKM and he literally nearly couldn't even scream cuz of the heat. So here's your evidence.
Also u said that Natsu himdelf wouldn't have beaten Ikutsunagi?
Bull. Utter bull. Please go get some information and don't act out of rage or hate.
Also in the fight with Jacob he wasn't above of Jacob. Where did u get that info? Are we talking about FT? Wich manga are u reading? Tell to care?
Cuz it clearly isn't FT.
Natsu and Jacob were thrown in a straight line. So Natsu was NOT above him.
And I'm sure that Natsu could use demolition fist if he runs a few metres.
Or wait, you say he couldn't? Where's your evidence.
He is clearly on Spriggan level and that's it.
As for the enhanced Nineheart.
I wonder how strong he will be :/
The only thing I'm excited about is what Nineheart can do, and how Gray trashes Invel. The other things don't interest me in the slightest.
This chapter, cuz we already know what'll happen, is the biggest dissapointment since FT's beginning.
I can't really describe how HARD Mashima fucked up. Dead people stay dead. Learn that, you dumbass of an Mangaka.
I really am enraged.
It's a pity. Normally a 100th chapter should be epicness personified. And what does he do? He ruins it. Wow, Gray get's to know END's indentity. And now?
What of it? In chaptwr 500 i would have expected something much more epic. Like END awakening. Or some Acno backstory would've been better than Gray getting some info. It sucks.
I also look somewhat forward to Dimarias future actions. And a bit now what Gray will do but well.
I think my interest in FT is fading. Here I thought FT's maybe last arc would get something special. But in reality, from the overhyped enemies to the "deaths", everything is a more than huge dissapointment.
I mean, like, Mashima is seeing what his fans want, he is seeing that sooo many Fans don't like his course of action. So why the heck does he do that?
Juvias "revival" is really the worst.
Gajeels too. I mean yeah he was dragged into hell, but miss eileen just by coincendce teleports just HIM, a single person, whose body was, as stated by himself, dissipated into anti magic particles, and throws him out of hell, regenerates his body, and let's him live his life.
And the worst thing is, she stated the teleportations were randomly, so WHY THE FUCK did it get gajeel?
Oh man, the more I write, the more I get enraged.
I really like the characters don't misunderstand me. But he should pull the stick out of his ass and let the dead stay dead.
Well no @Labi, BDKM flames are just as hot as his regular flames. As they too a red flames, if they were truly hotter flames there would have been a noticeable difference in the color of the flames. But no, they're all red flames. I mean don't you know how much science goes into FT brah?
All serious though, I doubt Natsu's gonna truly fight Gray if it comes to it. Gray has his crazy rage to push him to kill Natsu, Natsu however would be in a bind. As he would have no true psychological reason to go all out.
Well no @Labi, BDKM flames are just as hot as his regular flames. As they too a red flames, if they were truly hotter flames there would have been a noticeable difference in the color of the flames. But no, they're all red flames. I mean don't you know how much science goes into FT brah?
All serious though, I doubt Natsu's gonna truly fight Gray if it comes to it. Gray has his crazy rage to push him to kill Natsu, Natsu however would be in a bind. As he would have no true psychological reason to go all out.
No ,even for the same color , there are different ranges of temperatures...And , for the same color . even humidity affects heat - index........Besides we still did not have the colored chapter / anime adaption of IGNNEEL powered flames of NATSU....We had seen IGNEEL's flames....They had the slight different color....
Also in the flame itself , there are different regions where colors differ / even if they do not differ , they have different temperature ranges.......
Example is Igneel's flame ......it is similar to the "Combustion of the rocket fuel science "........
Also do watch the last episode of FT ....Natsu's flames were a bit different than usual........
IF HIRO would apply FT logic , then it is based on MP. Natsu's MP has increased which can make his flames even hotter..........
Basically , the Flames which NATSU uses are ranged from "Candle light flame" to "Flash bulb flame" based on a KELVIN TEMPERATURE SCALE..
Even for yellow to red or dark-yellow flame , there are 13 different ranges of temperature..
So ,even with the same color , he can have a hotter flame......But his flame has changed color....The proof in the last chapter & will get on IGNEEL powered flame when anime is adapted.
Moreover , psychological or not, NATSU will fight GRAY seriously if he decides to challenge him.
In hindsight was Bradman really tough? His main thing was the makeup of his body which was a huge advantage. Also when it comes to Natsu's flames I think I agree with lakkhan.
Anyway, I don't get this whole "Invel is the weakest" thing especially when Neinhart and Jacob exist.
He was fighting Gray- another skilled Ice User. If it was anyone else his showing would have been a lot more impressive and even then he still basically won when Ice Lock was cast on Gray and is only still in the running since FT gets friendship hacks. Invel's power may not be all that visually impressive but he's definitely getting downplayed a lot.
He's not weak.Gray is just stupid strong.
More importantly, I want Anco to come back and wreck some other people now. How long can a dragon be lost?! He can fly.
Yes, Natsu's flames get hotter in FDK mode. He can evaporate a lake and cause a Spriggan pain. Base Natsu's flames are tolerable to even Lucy tiers. So yes, there is a huge difference. Invel wouldn't be able to freeze FDK flames at all imo, at least not without considerable effort.
FDK spells cover enough AoE anyways that dodging is pretty much impractical. It's not like demolition fist is slow either. If he can land an iron fist, and he can, he can land a demolition fist. Natsu literally oneshots another Spriggan in the spoilers. He's taken down 2 Spriggans now, and he still isn't a Spriggan level. >.>
Well Natsu wasn't in FDKM when he was frozen, he was still in base. But I agree with you, Invel is being downplayed enormously. He hasn't even been defeated yet and people are already making assumptions about his power level.
Um no, he wasn't. He used a FDK spell, sure, but he wasn't actually in the mode. We've only seen FDKM twice, during the Zeref fight and at the end of the Jacob fight.
FDKM Natsu got frozen ? it's just base Natsu.
He took time to free himself for plot reasons.
Natsu can 1 shot Invel just like Neinhart and Jacob
Freezing fire dragon roar isn't impressive either.
Invel has only freezing feats and 0 compact skills. lame Spriggan. The weakest
He entered the battlefield in FDKM mode, and managed to set the earth ablaze but invel still froze those flames with nothing but temperature. Setting the earth ablaze were feats only shown by FDKM natsu. Sure it was for plot reasons but it still happened. Plus, even if he wasn't in FDKM mode, FDKM natsu couldn't hold his own against a historia of god Serena.
Um no, he wasn't. He used a FDK spell, sure, but he wasn't actually in the mode. We've only seen FDKM twice, during the Zeref fight and at the end of the Jacob fight.
