Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Axiomus]

I will keep my words, so you won't see any arguments from my side. But I have a few questions.

1. If you say Natsu didn't need to use FDKM to defeat Jacob, then why did he use it?
2. Similarly, if FDKM was overkill, why did Jacob survive it?
3. How can you say Gray's Ice Devil's Zeroth: Destruction Fist took several hits to take down Invel, but then say Natsu's FDKM was overkill? Wasn't this also be a situation where it would be considered "overkill"?
4. How is Gray's performance against Invel even comparable to Natsu negating August's attack? Natsu was only able to perform such a feat because he has a counter to heat-based spells. On the other hand, Invel's ice was said to affect all mages even DeS users.

1. Because he wanted to take Jacob out in one hit as opposed in several smaller hits. He also used FDK spells against the Alvarez troops, and I doubt he needed to use them there either. People say Gray could have taken out Ul without using devil slaying magic, if he just tries harder with his ice make spells. I'm making more or less the same argument here.
2. It was overkill because Jacob was already suffering before the blow even landed. Overkill in this context means more power than what was absolutely necessary to defeat your opponent.
3. You can consider Broken Fist to be overkill against Invel, yes. I still consider Demolition Fist to be the stronger attack due to the fact it's a oneshot as opposed to taking several blows. That, and base Natsu's stronger punches can already take out some Spriggan level opponents.
4. Invel's ice was demonic ice. Technically, Invel said Gray's resistance to cold comes from his molding magic, and he never said anything about devil slaying. Also, strictly speaking Invel did freeze Gray. Gray simply broke out of it. I also tend to think villains exaggerate their abilities. Invel also said that ice lock won't become undone until one person dies, and both Gray and Juvia are still alive. Do I believe Invel's ice is absolutely invincible and would freeze anything? No. Also August is a much stronger mage than Invel. If Laxus' nuke would have taken down Ajeel, then August' nuke is definitely a blow capable of taking down a Spriggan. Even with a slayer advantage, negating it is an impressive feat.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 30, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 30, 2016 ---

First of all, welcome back
I don't think Lessio is underrated, we've already seen that his best technique, Transport, can be countered provided you're fast enough to block his hands before he claps.
How is God Serena overrated though? I'm curious on your opinion on that

He's underrated in the sense that he can do basically what Dimaria can with his stealth, and yet he's regarded as the weakest Spriggan by some.
God Serena is overrated in the sense that some assume he's got more magical power than the other Spriggans. I don't believe that to be the case. He's just got a magic better suited for fighting.

 

[M3J]

Idk, ask hiro. He has something planned for him, not me. I think Larcade won't be outright stronger then Acno but rather a perfect counter. Though being a perfect counter still only gets you so far. If he can hold his own enough to enact the "perfect counter" that alone puts him above anyone other then August and Irene among the Spriggan.



Current Gildarts might be able to not get insta one-shotted depending on how fast he is. I still don't know if there would be a legitimate fight though. Gildarts prior to the TS gets the Serena treatment though, unless his injuries post-acno affected his magic power.

That is true, but if he's at a disadvantage but not close to death, he's more close to Gildarts' level than anything as Acnologia actually took its fight with Gildarts somewhat seriously. I don't think he's ever gotten one-shot, but I don't remember much what he said.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Yes, Bloodman is largely haxed base. However, at the end of the day, the only hax that was really going to work against Gajeel was a double suicide.

I'd argue against that, Bradman could have stolen his senses at any point, the only reason why Gajeel lasted so long was because Bradman wasn't using his most hax curses. Besides, towards the end of the fight Bradman sent a thorn straight through his abdomen, he could have done that at any point.

Over Skelter was tanked and escaped, and Gajeel can survive the other curses.

Can Gajeel survive the other curses? As I mentioned above Bradman could have used Thorns at any point, had Bradman used his best curses from the start he would have lolstomped Gajeel, he could have stolen his senses, enhanced his pain and then pierced him with thorns straight away.

As for Over Skelter, tanking it isn't actually that impressive because it's parent branch (Three Seals) appears to be a life draining family. Think about it, the First Seal is MBP's (drains MP and kills), the Second Seal is the skulls (they drain whilst you're trapped) and Over Skelter drains via entrapment (if you can't get out, you'll die).

I'm not saying anti-magic particles are not part of Bloodman's arsenal. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying anyone with magic with an element that can actually harm anti-magic particles (for example, Juvia with her water magic) would not have the disadvantage that Gajeel had for being solely reliant on physical attacks. If that mage was on black iron Gajeel's level in terms of power level, they would have taken Bloodman with ease.

I'm not sure why you think they'd take him out with ease if at all, keep in mind that Bradman's MBP's have a fairly large radius so any CQC fighter would suffer for trying to get so close. Plus if it's at any longer than close range than Bradman can just use Tenchi Kamei or the Sensation curse as they try to close the gap. Against long range fighters he can use the Absorption Curse to mitigate some damage and he can use the Calamity Curse to close the gap.

A quick little thing I'd like to add to this is that Bradman makes the Calamity curse about 10x more dangerous, as he closes the gap the winds spread his MBP's. Just food for thought.

I also make a distinction between power level (amount of MP/curse power) and how hax someone's ability is. Brandish and Dimaria are on the same level. Brandish can just as easily cause Dimaria's head to explode if she decides to act first. Brandish doesn't even need to click her teeth to cast her magic. If hax is all that matters, then Wall >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bloodman. Wall can erase Bradman's particles altogether.

In a direct confrontation then yes, Wahl stomps Bradman. However, in a power ranking thread when two characters are tied the result should come down to (IMO) whoever is more dangerous to more people. In this scenario the result is Bradman as his MBP's are lethal to almost any human mage whereas Wahl's nullifier isn't.

Bloodman may have the absorption curse, but he has to actually think to use it. Gajeel was blitzing Bloodman at a rate where he couldn't even react. If we're talking about abilities they had but didn't use, I might as well argue why Gajeel didn't choose to abuse his ability to hide in shadows for the whole fight.

True, DF/JBI Gajeel was blitzing him but there is one thing I'd like to draw attention to: had that been a regular DF Gajeel he still couldn't touch Bradman. When Gajeel starts attacking Bradman, the latter makes it clear that he only managed to hit him because he altered his magic and that it was because of the MBP's. Therefore, without the MBP's it's likely he wouldn't be able to hit Bradman.

As for ISD Gajeel, Gajeel couldn't draw the battle out, Bradman made it clear that the longer they fought, more bystanders died.

Also, I'm of the opinion that stuff like Macro has limits. Otherwise, we would have seen Mirajane use it against the twins instead of using up all her power in Alegria. Gajeel, especially black iron Gajeel, would have been above that limit.

I'm also of the opinion that Macro has limits, I only mentioned it because it is technically a possibility This being said, that doesn't address the fact that Bradman could have stolen his senses at any time..

Also, to your point about anyone else would have been suffering from the MBP's. That may be true. However, if they had the sense to hold their breath they could probably last as long as Levy. Someone like Laxus, for example, would be able to kill Bloodman within that timeframe.

Levy had to wear a mask and even then, the MBP's still went through her skin. I don't see any reason to suspect why someone could hold their breath for as long as Levy's mask held up, especially since they'd be getting spammed by curses.

Also using Laxus isn't the best example, the guy was hyped to have casually killed a Spriggan and he gave another Spriggan an extreme-diff fight despite the fact that he should already (according to Wahl) have been dead himself. There aren't exactly many other characters that can compete with that sort of endurance.

 

[Axiomus]

For things like sense stealing, I can buy it maybe if Bloodman used it against base Gajeel in the start of the fight. Once Gajeel was in black iron mode, he was smashing Bloodman before the latter could even react. I don't believe Bloodman chose to let himself die. I believe he couldn't keep up with Gajeel to use a curse. Again, Gajeel could have camped in the shadows to avoid thorns. There's a lot of things characters can do to abuse their abilities. That's usually not how they're portrayed to be. Over Skelter was supposedly a curse stronger than the 9 Demon Gate's'. Only thorns is potentially on the same level.

Yes, Gajeel had to eat the particles to be able to hit bloodman. But that's because his element iron limits him to largely an arsenal of physical attacks. A mage with an element that can harm the particles wouldn't need to consume the anti-magic particles to actually be able to hit Bloodman. If that mage was at black iron Gajeel's power level, he would be way stronger than Bloodman. God Serena, for example, wouldn't have this problem as he has water for an element. We know from Juvia vs Keith that water can harm the particles. I actually consider Gajeel's attacks to be stronger than God Serena's.

You don't have to compete with Laxus' endurance. You just have to compete with Levy's endurance. I'm saying anyone that can fight for as long as Levy can at black-iron Gajeel's level, can probably take out Bloodman provided their magic can actually hit him. I don't see why people can't hold their breath, or even make an actual mask out of clothing (the same way you would do for smoke). Also, the point of being the same power-level as black iron Gajeel is so that you will be the one spamming attacks at Bloodman. If Bloodman is spamming attacks at you, then you're very likely not performing at Gajeel's level:

Spoiler

Wall has etherion and can create a cannon with a 400km range. He's every bit as lethal against a 3rd party. Etherion would have supposedly erased Laxus.

 

[Hermit]

He's underrated in the sense that he can do basically what Dimaria can with his stealth, and yet he's regarded as the weakest Spriggan by some.

Except, Stealth can be countered by any form of Light Magic, such as Regulus, the Three Fairy Magics, Sting's Dragon Slaying Element or Levy's Solid Script:Shine....it simply has far too many weaknesses for me to consider it a hax magic like Age Seal

God Serena is overrated in the sense that some assume he's got more magical power than the other Spriggans. I don't believe that to be the case. He's just got a magic better suited for fighting.

Well, I'm not sure who started that baseless assumption, I just think God Serena has shown the best feats out of all the Spriggan 12 members this arc so he's in the upper half of their rankings...
The magic thing is a weak argument, having more magic than someone doesn't mean you're necessarily stronger, it just means you'll last in a fight longer

 

[Axiomus]

Except, Stealth can be countered by any form of Light Magic, such as Regulus, the Three Fairy Magics, Sting's Dragon Slaying Element or Levy's Solid Script:Shine....it simply has far too many weaknesses for me to consider it a hax magic like Age Seal

Well, I'm not sure who started that baseless assumption, I just think God Serena has shown the best feats out of all the Spriggan 12 members this arc so he's in the upper half of their rankings...
The magic thing is a weak argument, having more magic than someone doesn't mean you're necessarily stronger, it just means you'll last in a fight longer

Stealth can't be detected though. Even if you had light magic, you still won't know where he is unless he tips you off. Jacob can sneak in and cut you up just like Dimaria can. He makes no detectable sound (at least, not detectable to Natsu's DS senses) and can't be traced on a magical radar.

I have all the Spriggans except August, Irene, and Larcade as being more or less on the same level in terms of magical power. Some are more suited for direct combat. Some rely on their hax. I don't think raw power is completely irrelevant though. Raw power is probably what sets Irene and August above the crowd.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

1. Because he wanted to take Jacob out in one hit as opposed in several smaller hits. He also used FDK spells against the Alvarez troops, and I doubt he needed to use them there either. People say Gray could have taken out Ul without using devil slaying magic, if he just tries harder with his ice make spells. I'm making more or less the same argument here.
2. It was overkill because Jacob was already suffering before the blow even landed. Overkill in this context means more power than what was absolutely necessary to defeat your opponent.
3. You can consider Broken Fist to be overkill against Invel, yes. I still consider Demolition Fist to be the stronger attack due to the fact it's a oneshot as opposed to taking several blows. That, and base Natsu's stronger punches can already take out some Spriggan level opponents.
4. Invel's ice was demonic ice. Technically, Invel said Gray's resistance to cold comes from his molding magic, and he never said anything about devil slaying. Also, strictly speaking Invel did freeze Gray. Gray simply broke out of it. I also tend to think villains exaggerate their abilities. Invel also said that ice lock won't become undone until one person dies, and both Gray and Juvia are still alive. Do I believe Invel's ice is absolutely invincible and would freeze anything? No. Also August is a much stronger mage than Invel. If Laxus' nuke would have taken down Ajeel, then August' nuke is definitely a blow capable of taking down a Spriggan. Even with a slayer advantage, negating it is an impressive feat.

Fair enough. Although I disagree with most of your points, I will keep it to myself and not dispute with you.

But just to clarify, Invel was not exaggerating when he said his ice has the capability to freeze anything. In fact, Invel's words were proven true because it still froze Gray... The only reason why Gray was able to break out of it was because he was physically stronger.

As for Ice Lock, Invel was also correct when he said it wouldn't vanish until one of the victims died. The reason why Ice Lock broke was because Gray died. The moment the chains were broken, then Juvia used her Blood Transfusion Magic to revive Gray. I was always against Juvia having such magic and the logic behind it but I won't discuss it here as many seem to disagree.

Invel would be able to freeze August. But August would be able to break it. Freezing something doesn't necessarily mean it is absolute and can't be broken.

 

[Nemispelled]

In terms of the actual fighting, Gajeel clearly dominating Bloodman. Saying that Bloodman was on Gajeel's level is like saying Tempesta was on Laxus' level because he did him in with the anti-magic particles. There is a clear difference in how well they fought.

Incorrect, sorry, but I'm not getting off your tail that easily.

Tempesta and Laxus is completely different from Bloodman and Gajeel's case. The reason?

Laxus purposefully absorbed the MBPs. He did not have to, but he chose to in order to save the townspeople.

Laxus could have easily just turned into a lightning bolt and disappear up into the sky, but he didn't... cuz he felt like atoning for his mistakes in the past.

In other words, Laxus sacrificed himself intentionally.


Gajeel on the other hand, was not defending anybody.

Unlike Laxus, the only person Gajeel was responsible for... was himself.

Gajeel was dragged down into hell because he could not beat Bloodman. It's as simple as that.

So comparing Tempesta & Laxus case to Bloodman & Gajeel's case is invalid.

Also, Gajeel never actually died. He would have died had Universe One not intercepted the transport, but even then... The most you can say is that Bloodman forced a stalemate against Gajeel, after getting owned in the actual fighting. Which is probably the most accurate way to describe what happened.

Now you are starting to bs me...

Gajeel would have died if Universe One didn't save him. That's the key point.

Everything about Gajeel "not technically being dead" is irrelevant because he would have been, had Universe One not bailed his ass.


You can make Gajeel sound good all you like, the fact is that Bloodman was not the only one who died.

Bloodman far outclasses Gajeel... The most that you can say is that DF Gajeel stalemates Bloodman, but:

Gajeel was just as dead as Bloodman was.

That's the more accurate statement.

I don't think it's quite fair to use suicide attacks or anything like that as a feat. By that logic we would have to take into account Iced Shell when discussing Gray.

It was Gajeel's own fault for being caught in the suicide attack.

There is no excuse in my honest opinion.


I'm sorry, but the evidence stands as clear as day. Bloodman was not the only one who died. Gajeel was clearly screwed as much as Bloodman was.

 

[Axiomus]

Fair enough. Although I disagree with most of your points, I will keep it to myself and not dispute with you.

But just to clarify, Invel was not exaggerating when he said his ice has the capability to freeze anything. In fact, Invel's words were proven true because it still froze Gray... The only reason why Gray was able to break out of it was because he was physically stronger.

As for Ice Lock, Invel was also correct when he said it wouldn't vanish until one of the victims died. The reason why Ice Lock broke was because Gray died. The moment the chains were broken, then Juvia used her Blood Transfusion Magic to revive Gray. I was always against Juvia having such magic and the logic behind it but I won't discuss it here as many seem to disagree.

Invel would be able to freeze August. But August would be able to break it. Freezing something doesn't necessarily mean it is absolute and can't be broken.

When was it confirmed that Gray died?
Gray using Invel's ice didn't freeze Invel over either.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 1, 2016 ---

Incorrect, sorry, but I'm not getting off your tail that easily.

Tempesta and Laxus is completely different from Bloodman and Gajeel's case. The reason?

Laxus purposefully absorbed the MBPs. He did not have to, but he chose to in order to save the townspeople.

Laxus could have easily just turned into a lightning bolt and disappear up into the sky, but he didn't... cuz he felt like atoning for his mistakes in the past.

In other words, Laxus sacrificed himself intentionally.


Gajeel on the other hand, was not defending anybody.

Unlike Laxus, the only person Gajeel was responsible for... was himself.

Gajeel was dragged down into hell because he could not beat Bloodman. It's as simple as that.

So comparing Tempesta & Laxus case to Bloodman & Gajeel's case is invalid.






Now you are starting to bs me...

Gajeel would have died if Universe One didn't save him. That's the key point.

Everything about Gajeel "not technically being dead" is irrelevant because he would have been, had Universe One not bailed his ass.


You can make Gajeel sound good all you like, the fact is that Bloodman was not the only one who died.

Bloodman far outclasses Gajeel... The most that you can say is that DF Gajeel stalemates Bloodman, but:

Gajeel was just as dead as Bloodman was.

That's the more accurate statement.





It was Gajeel's own fault for being caught in the suicide attack.

There is no excuse in my honest opinion.


I'm sorry, but the evidence stands as clear as day. Bloodman was not the only one who died. Gajeel was clearly screwed as much as Bloodman was.

It's still a valid comparison. Whether or not Laxus was forced to absorb the particles is irrelevant.
The whole point is that Laxus was clearly the superior combatant when compared to Tempesta.
Much in the same way, Gajeel was clearly the superior combatant when compared to Bloodman.
They were done in by abilities that were completely unrelated to their performance in combat.

If Bloodman was on Black Iron Gajeel's level, he would have been able to fight back. You do realize that once Gajeel was in black iron mode, Bradman couldn't land a single attack, block a single attack, or even dodge a single attack? He was, effectively, a punching bag until Gajeel deemed the battle to be over and let his guard down. At which point, Bloodman was already dying and resorted to trying to drag an exhausted base-Gajeel into a portal.

It's Bloodman's own fault for getting ripped apart.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

When was it confirmed that Gray died?
Gray using Invel's ice didn't freeze Invel over either.

The Ice Lock being broken confirms that Gray died. Also, the fact that Juvia had to transfer her blood to Gray supports that as well. If Gray did not die (as a result of losing too much blood), then why would Juvia give him her blood? He wouldn't have needed Juvia's help nor would the chains have been broken.

Gray didn't freeze Invel with his own ice because he didn't use an attack that is meant to freeze his opponent. Ice Devil's Zeroth: Destruction Fist is no different from Ice Make: Hammer except that the former is a lot more potent. Not every ice spell freezes the target.

 

[Axiomus]

The Ice Lock being broken confirms that Gray died. Also, the fact that Juvia had to transfer her blood to Gray supports that as well. If Gray did not die (as a result of losing too much blood), then why would Juvia give him her blood? He wouldn't have needed Juvia's help nor would the chains have been broken.

Gray didn't freeze Invel with his own ice because he didn't use an attack that is meant to freeze his opponent. Ice Devil's Zeroth: Destruction Fist is no different from Ice Make: Hammer except that the former is a lot more potent. Not every ice spell freezes the target.

Does it? Hiro Mashima strictly stated that he wanted to avoid writing situations where people died and are brought back to life. I tend to think Invel was just exaggerating when he said that. Besides, blood transfusions shouldn't be of any use if you're already dead and the heart's already stopped. Gray was dying. That doesn't mean he was dead. It's not like Juvia is going to wait until he was dead to try saving his life. Just like with any serious injury, you want to save the guy before he dies.

Spoiler

Zero Broken Fist uses the same ice as divine raiment. If it is supposed to freeze absolutely anything, it should freeze Invel over.

Spoiler

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Does it? Hiro Mashima strictly stated that he wanted to avoid writing situations where people died and are brought back to life. I tend to think Invel was just exaggerating when he said that. Besides, blood transfusions shouldn't be of any use if you're already dead and the heart's already stopped. Gray was dying. That doesn't mean he was dead. It's not like Juvia is going to wait until he was dead to try saving his life.

Spoiler

Zero Broken Fist uses the same ice as divine raiment. If it is supposed to freeze absolutely anything, it should freeze Invel over.

Spoiler

I don't really know the specifics as to what Hiro Mashima was referring to with this page. Therefore, I can't exactly argue here. At first, I thought he was only talking about permanent deaths. Then I thought that he wanted us to use convenient excuses to explain certain deaths.

However, after re-reading it, it seems like he was talking about the Spriggans as a whole. In fact, the whole page was about the Spriggan characters. Not about Gray. The part you are referencing seems like he was explaining Neinhart's magic. For example, the sentence that says, "Hey! He's supposed to be dead, what's he doin' there?!", doesn't sound like the context in which Gray "died". That is more like a reaction when we saw Neinhart's Historias.

Besides, it makes sense that Gray died which resulted in the failure of Ice Lock. Otherwise, Hiro Mashima would contradict himself and the plot in which Juvia learned Blood Transfusion Magic would prove to be useless. I agree that using real life logic, once the heart stops beating, the person shouldn't be alive. But that is the exact reason why I called this nonsense out in the chapter discussion/prediction thread which was opposed by many others.

I understand that the spell Gray used integrated Invel's ice but that doesn't mean it is a freezing spell. Gray can freeze Bickslow's puppets with his ice but he can also crush things with Ice Make: Hammer. It just depends on how he molds his ice. In this case, it doesn't seem like he was trying to freeze Invel. Rather, he wanted to beat him up.

 

[Axiomus]

I don't really know the specifics as to what Hiro Mashima was referring to with this page. Therefore, I can't exactly argue here. At first, I thought he was only talking about permanent deaths. Then I thought that he wanted us to use convenient excuses to explain certain deaths.

However, after re-reading it, it seems like he was talking about the Spriggans as a whole. Not about Gray. The part you are referencing seems like he was explaining Neinhart's magic. For example, the sentence that that says, "Hey! He's supposed to be dead, what's he doin' there?!", doesn't sound like the context in which Gray "died". That is more like a reaction when we saw Neinhart's Historias.

I understand that the spell Gray used integrated Invel's ice but that doesn't mean it is a freezing spell. Gray can freeze Bickslow's puppets with his ice but he can also crush things with Ice Make: Hammer. It just depends on how he molds his ice. In this case, it doesn't seem like he was trying to freeze Invel. Rather, he wanted to beat him up.

For me "nobody who dies comes back to life" is an eternal rule that's as absolute as like, a fairy code. There are some characters that might make people say "Hey! He's supposed to be dead, what's he doin' there!?". In those cases, I ask you to use the convenient excuse that he never actually died. If someone is written as dead within the context of the story, I have written it with the full intent that they will never be alive again.

For me, this sounds like a general statement that applies to any character. The obvious exception being Natsu, as reviving the dead seems to be the theme of the major taboo that Zeref broke. I might be wrong if Juvia turns out to be cursed by Ankhseram. And while its true this is from a few chapters before Gray and Juvia's chapter, I think that unless Hiro did a 180 on his policies...this mentality applies to Gray's situation as well. In that, he wasn't really dead.

I don't get why Juvia's blood transfusion magic would be useless if Gray wasn't already dead. The point of a blood transfusion is to prevent someone from dying from blood loss. I've literally never heard of a blood transfusion being attempted on a dead guy. What would truly be odd is if Juvia waited until Gray was dead.

In any case, I don't see Invel's attack as being in the same league as August's. Negating invel's ice with brute force doesn't seem to be more impressive than negating a nuke from August. It's not like Natsu is lacking in the brute force department either. If Laxus' nuke is potentially lethal to Ajeel, August's nuke should definitely be at least on the same level. Even accounting for Natsu's slayer resistance to fire, that's an impressive feat of defense.

 

[Spirit]

For me, this sounds like a general statement that applies to any character. The obvious exception being Natsu, as reviving the dead seems to be the theme of the major taboo that Zeref broke. I might be wrong if Juvia turns out to be cursed by Ankhseram. And while its true this is from a few chapters before Gray and Juvia's chapter, I think that unless Hiro did a 180 on his policies...this mentality applies to Gray's situation as well. In that, he wasn't really dead.

I don't get why Juvia's blood transfusion magic would be useless if Gray wasn't already dead. The point of a blood transfusion is to prevent someone from dying from blood loss. I've literally never heard of a blood transfusion being attempted on a dead guy. What would truly be odd is if Juvia waited until Gray was dead.

In any case, I don't see Invel's attack as being in the same league as August's. Negating invel's ice with brute force doesn't seem to be more impressive than negating a nuke from August. It's not like Natsu is lacking in the brute force department either. If Laxus' nuke is potentially lethal to Ajeel, August's nuke should definitely be at least on the same level. Even accounting for Natsu's slayer resistance to fire, that's an impressive feat of defense.

Surely Hiro has pulled a 180 on his policies for most the this series?
His power levels are broken and temperamental
He wastes characters
And the one-time-only Powerups get a bit old sometimes

 

[Axiomus]

Surely Hiro has pulled a 180 on his policies for most the this series?
His power levels are broken and temperamental
He wastes characters
And the one-time-only Powerups get a bit old sometimes

Assuming that this isn't Hiro's policy to begin with.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 1, 2016 ---

@XXEliteXXAceXX
Anyways, this is my last word on the subject:
1) I'm more inclined to believe that a villain is bluffing about his powers than I am of believing that Gray actually died, and Juvia has a magic that can bring back dead people.
2) I think any statements about the absolute OPness of a power should be taken with a grain of salt. Two weeks ago, Dimaria's age seal was the end-all-be-all of haxness. Last chapter, we have Natsu walking through Dimaria's age seal. I would be surprised if Zeref, Acnologia, and Irene wouldn't be able to do much the same. Likewise, I have a hard time believe Invel's ice would do much to Acnologia if the latter bites him.
3) The slayer advantage that Natsu has against August is more or less canceled out by August's superiority over Invel when I compare Natsu negating August's nuke to Gray breaking Divine Raiment.

 

[Spirit]

Assuming that this isn't Hiro's policy to begin with.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 1, 2016 ---

@XXEliteXXAceXX
Anyways, this is my last word on the subject:
1) I'm more inclined to believe that a villain is bluffing about his powers than I am of believing that Gray actually died, and Juvia has a magic that can bring back dead people.
2) I think any statements about the absolute OPness of a power should be taken with a grain of salt. Two weeks ago, Dimaria's age seal was the end-all-be-all of haxness. Last chapter, we have Natsu walking through Dimaria's age seal. I would be surprised if Zeref, Acnologia, and Irene wouldn't be able to do much the same.
3) The slayer advantage that Natsu has against August is more or less canceled out by August's superiority over Invel when I compare Natsu negating August's nuke to Gray breaking Divine Raiment.

True. He's notoriously trollish, maybe he gets it from Kubo?
Villains tend to overhype themselves. That's the way it's always been

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

For me, this sounds like a general statement that applies to any character. The obvious exception being Natsu, as reviving the dead seems to be the theme of the major taboo that Zeref broke. I might be wrong if Juvia turns out to be cursed by Ankhseram. And while its true this is from a few chapters before Gray and Juvia's chapter, I think that unless Hiro did a 180 on his policies...this mentality applies to Gray's situation as well. In that, he wasn't really dead.

I don't get why Juvia's blood transfusion magic would be useless if Gray wasn't already dead. The point of a blood transfusion is to prevent someone from dying from blood loss. I've literally never heard of a blood transfusion being attempted on a dead guy. What would truly be odd is if Juvia waited until Gray was dead.

In any case, I don't see Invel's attack as being in the same league as August's. Negating invel's ice with brute force doesn't seem to be more impressive than negating a nuke from August. It's not like Natsu is lacking in the brute force department either. If Laxus' nuke is potentially lethal to Ajeel, August's nuke should definitely be at least on the same level. Even accounting for Natsu's slayer resistance to fire, that's an impressive feat of defense.

That logic wouldn't make sense though. Gray could just as easily prevent himself from dying (due to blood loss) by sealing his wounds with ice. There had to be some reason why he couldn't do that which is because he was unconscious, presumably dead.

Spoiler

Giving him more blood won't be of any use since he already had enough blood in his body. Besides, Juvia giving him blood was supposed to mean she was giving "life" to him. In the real world, this wouldn't be possible. But in the manga, it makes a lot more sense than Juvia giving Gray more blood because he was running out of blood... He could have just stopped the bleeding himself.

@XXEliteXXAceXX
Anyways, this is my last word on the subject:
1) I'm more inclined to believe that a villain is bluffing about his powers than I am of believing that Gray actually died, and Juvia has a magic that can bring back dead people.
2) I think any statements about the absolute OPness of a power should be taken with a grain of salt. Two weeks ago, Dimaria's age seal was the end-all-be-all of haxness. Last chapter, we have Natsu walking through Dimaria's age seal. I would be surprised if Zeref, Acnologia, and Irene wouldn't be able to do much the same. Likewise, I have a hard time believe Invel's ice would do much to Acnologia if the latter bites him.
3) The slayer advantage that Natsu has against August is more or less canceled out by August's superiority over Invel when I compare Natsu negating August's nuke to Gray breaking Divine Raiment.

1. I don't see why Invel would bluff two times though... I take his words as they have suggested to have been proven.

2. E.N.D walking though Age Seal is understandable because E.N.D > Dimaria, in my opinion. I actually believe Invel could freeze a part of Acnologia's body. But it will be broken immediately.

3. Fair enough.

 

[Axiomus]

That logic wouldn't make sense though. Gray could just as easily prevent himself from dying (due to blood loss) by sealing his wounds with ice. There had to be some reason why he couldn't do that which is because he was unconscious, presumably dead.

Spoiler

Giving him more blood won't be of any use since he already had enough blood in his body. Besidse, Juvia giving him blood was supposed to mean she was giving "life" to him. In the real world, this wouldn't be possible. But in the manga, it makes a lot more sense than Juvia giving Gray more blood because he was running out of blood... He could have just stopped the bleeding himself.

I know I said last words, but this can easily be explained by the fact that Gray was injured. When you're injured, you don't always think straight.

 

[Nemispelled]

It's still a valid comparison. Whether or not Laxus was forced to absorb the particles is irrelevant.
The whole point is that Laxus was clearly the superior combatant when compared to Tempesta.
Much in the same way, Gajeel was clearly the superior combatant when compared to Bloodman.
They were done in by abilities that were completely unrelated to their performance in combat.

Alright, well, we'll just disagree there. Really, in a battle, it comes down to the final result.

If both Bloodman and Gajeel die, then it is a stalemate, regardless of what happened during the fight.

And since both Bloodman and Gajeel technically died, then we can't deny those feats, now can we?

DF Gajeel may be stronger than Bloodman, I'm not denying that.

Where I dispute is when you said "Bloodman is the only one that died", which is completely false in my opinion because we do have proof of Gajeel being dead if it weren't for Irene's Universe One.

If Bloodman was on Black Iron Gajeel's level, he would have been able to fight back. You do realize that once Gajeel was in black iron mode, Bradman couldn't land a single attack, block a single attack, or even dodge a single attack? He was, effectively, a punching bag until Gajeel deemed the battle to be over and let his guard down. At which point, Bloodman was already dying and resorted to trying to drag an exhausted base-Gajeel into a portal.

It's Bloodman's own fault for getting ripped apart.

Read your last sentence again. I'll quote it for you:

"At which point, Bloodman was already dying and resorted to trying to drag an exhausted base-Gajeel into a portal."


Bloodman was the person that exhausted Gajeel... so he deserves the credit of killing Gajeel.

It's not like an "exhausted Gajeel" was handed to Bloodman on a silver platter... Bloodman was the one responsible for exhausting and killing Gajeel.

In other words, he earned it.

Regardless, Bloodman dragging Gajeel down to hell is a feat in itself. And because Gajeel was supposed to die as a result, then there should be no reason why Bloodman should be denied of that feat.


It may be Bloodman's own fault for getting ripped apart...

But it is also Gajeel's fault for getting caught and dragged down into the portal leading to hell.

 

[Brandish μ]

I would not place Gray over Natsu due to the fact he has a higher durability and speed.

Gray survived after putting a blade through his body and acted like that ever happened. He not only showcased his durability but speed too. When he used his devil slaying mode, he completely blitzed Invel, had he kept going, the fight would've be one sided in Grays favor.

If you don't remember but Gray can mold ice on the same level as Invel' divine ice, which can freeze anything instantly it comes to contact with.

Natsu taking out 2 spriggan 12 members doesn't make him the stronger. You have to realize that Jacob was made into a joke, Happy stopped transport. Then Makarov was the only one to move him and Natsu had to use an all out attack to take him out.

Neinhart on the other hand has low durability. So Natsu taking him out in one blow isn't anything special.

In regards to Gray's endurance/resilience, there has to be some element of Juvia's magic at play. Basically, Gray went from near death to fine. Even his wound looked closed/healed. Gray had no part in that, so I can't really say he's doing it on his own. I acknowledge that it could be a great endurance feat, but I'm aware at least that Juvia had a massive hand in Gray's survival... there really is no 2 ways about this.

Gray re-molded Invel's ice, but whether or not Gray has kept this demonic ice is yet to be seen. It does seem convenient enough of a power-up Gray could get though so he probs can still use it, and he's a slayer - we've seen Natsu and Gajeel be able to take on magic types. Freezing can be broken from, I don't really rate it highly.

Sure taking out 2 of the 12 doesn't make him stronger by default, but when balancing feats Natsu > Gray is basically a no-brainer for me. This doesn't mean Gray can't catch up, but right now he's not equal to Natsu. In my opinion...
FDKM Natsu > Base Gray (emotional power) ~ Base Natsu > Black Marks Gray (ch 498) > Base Gray (pre ch499).

Invel's durability probably isn't much above Neinhart's tbh. Jacob > Invel > Neinhart for durability I think is about right.