Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Brandish μ]

Gray's MP before ch499 was clearly below Spriggan's. It would be below Makarov's. This applies for everyone else in the guild sans Laxus and Gildarts imo.

After Gray awakened darkness, I do believe his MP rose. To Spriggan level? Maybe.

As for durability and MP, it's a general rule that MP and durability are positively correlated. Though you can have people on similar MP levels but much different physicals. As @Axiomus said, there are some people who have magic that will assist their physicals. Someone like DiMaria in Chronos form has more durability because of that form. God Serena is a dragon slayer, Wall is a machine - both have better physicals than Neinhart despite their similar MP level.

My initial impression was that Spriggans should have durability at least as good as Erza or Gray or Natsu. But it seems that was off, someone like Neinhart or Invel seem below Erza/Gray/Natsu tbh. Ajeel is different, he's fairly tanky. Jacob has reasonable durability too imo. Brandish seemed about as durable as Natsu, or maybe a little less. DiMaria without Chronos would be about the same as Brandish.

At the end of the day there is the physicality of the individual to consider. People from Edolas could tank attacks despite no MP being stored in their body at all.

 

[The President]

Jacob really doesn't have that great of durability. He was bruised by a punch from Loke. Also, base Brandish probably has lower durability then the average Spriggan (much like Jacob) and base DiMaria likely has even less then her (although with Chronos she gets average Spriggan durability).

 

[Brandish μ]

Jacob really doesn't have that great of durability. He was bruised by a punch from Loke. Also, base Brandish probably has lower durability then the average Spriggan (much like Jacob) and base DiMaria likely has even less then her (although with Chronos she gets average Spriggan durability).

Jacob's durability is probably better than Invel's, or the same level. Neinharts has to be the lowest. I agree on Brandish/Dimaria.

Agree on Brandish/Dimaria.

My general list would be
God Serena, Wall
Chronos, Ajeel (or Chronos goes up with Wall/GS)
Jacob
Invel Brandish DiMaria
Neinhart

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Nope and neither does Erza, he fought beside both of them in Avatar, and still he acknowledged that he had never felt that much MP before.

How does Natsu not have Spriggan level MP? The Spriggans were surprised by his magic power... You keep using the same argument that they were shocked from Brandish's magic power but this was the beginning of the arc. Now, even Brandish recognizes Natsu's power.

Yeah it does, in fact Gray's MP is likely even lower than Makarov's, since Makarov was still who he was comparing her to, rather than himself. MP doesnt decide fighting capability, you can have lower MP than your opponent and still be the superior warrior as shown by Natsu and Gray.

Highly doubt it. What makes you think Makarov has higher MP than Gray? From being worn out against fighting Alvarez soldiers?

Because im not talking about overall power, overall power would be including Neinhart's historias, in this scenario he is fighting without them and is thus significantly weaker.
Jacob's MP being vastly inferior to Neinhart's is speculation, we dont know what Eileen's enchantment did, could have just granted him a new ability, or increased attack power.

No, he isn't. We're talking about Enhanced Neinhart in this scnenario. He was significantly stronger. His historias didn't affect his attack power or durability. But his enchantment did. He was even able to use a new attack cthat damaged Brandish who has Spriggan level durability.

No, it was specifically stated that Neinhart's magic power was increased.

Spoiler: Neinhart's Power Increased

The Spriggans, for the most part, were stated to be on similar levels in Magic Power. So it is only logical for Neinhart to have a lot more magic power than Jacob after being enchanted.

And if Jacob's durability was canonized as equal to enchanted Neinhart's i would agree that it was an inconsistency, but unless that is explicitly stated some time in the future, then there is no choice but to determine Neinhart's durability as inferior, meaning that there is no such inconsistency, the manga always gets the benefit of the doubt over fan speculation, always.

I've never seen the author of a manga canonized power rankings explicitly. This means we have to use our own logic to deduce these kinds of things.

MP definitely isnt spriggan tier, Gray's comment about Brandish confirms that, she likely doesnt even have more MP than Makarov. She may or may not be a spriggan tier fighter, i am undecided on that so far.

Okay, whatever you say. But Brandish was surprised by Natsu's power just so you know. And Gray/Erza should be on his level in magic power. So if you don't think any of them have Sprigan level MP, you're going against your own logic.

Using a medium tier spell isnt going all out, it is going medium out. Natsu using less effort simply means that Natsu is stronger, there doesnt have to be an inconsistency here.

I don't think you understand what I mean by going all out.

Back in the Tartaros Arc, Jellal used Sema on the Oración Seis while holding back. Hence, they survived. Jellal could have purposely killed them if he wanted to by going all out (like Neinhart).

So? Doesnt mean she cant tell if someone is good, Jacob was also outclassing Natsu with ease.

She can't because she isn't good herself. That is like saying a kid tells you that you're good at fighting. But would a martial arts instructor say the same?

Half the time, Jacob used his magic to hit Natsu (like fading or Stealth). And like I said, Natsu isn't excellent at CQC either. He's average.

Tanked a punch to the gut by Natsu with ease, as well as a combined Lucy kick and FD Claw.

Yeah, and he was also injured by Leo.

Spoiler: Leo Damages Jacob

You realize that Dimaria tanked a punch from DF Wendy without any scratches whatsoever, right? And DF Wendy is stronger than Leo.

Weaker, possibly even weaker than Dimaria in base form

Obviously... I'm talking about compared to Ikusa-Tsunagi. I think it's clear Base Neinharr is the weakest Spriggan.

Speculation, we dont know what the Enchantment did.

If you're going to go by words like Natsu and Gray being surprised of a Spriggan's MP, then you'd also have to acknowledge Brandish's words which implies that the enchantment increased magic power (since MP negates hax).

Spoiler: Brandish's Words

Even Brandish acknowledges Enchanted Neinhart's power here. Why? Because Brandish knows Eileen and that her magic is not something to be taken lightly. Note that this was after she had seen Natsu's power against Jacob and was surprised by it.

Spoiler: Brandish Acknowledges Natsu's Power for the 1st Time

---

Ok just because a character has steam or whatever it is coming off their body doesn't make them a spriggan tier. When August got serious there wasn't any smoke coming off of him. It was the nature of Grays magic being ice, ice has that slow moving steam if you know what I mean. Debunked.

Steam? The only way for steam to appear is if there is heat. Obviously, Gray is a ice mage so that can't be true. And the reason you don't see on August is because he wasn't powering up. Meaning his magic power was not boosted. He already has high MP to begin with.

And someone like Natsu was already praised for his power by a Spriggan. Since Gray is similar to him in MP as shown in E.N.D vs Gray, then there is no reason to believe Gray doesn't have Spriggan level MP.

Let me turn the question around, how can Gray be a spriggan level when he was scared of the presence of Brandish. If someone is equal in power they aren't going to be shocked at their power. Debunked.

Why not? Natsu was just as afraid as Gray. He just didn't express in words. Rather, he had the same expressions as Gray. And if Natsu is Spriggan level (which he is), then so is Gray. They were fighting on par for the most part. Besides, if Natsu and Gray is not Spriggan level, then nobody in Ishgar is Spriggan level.

Jacob has amazing durability feats. He took Natsus punches like they were nothing and switched the tables and gave him the work. Natsu knew he was strong which is why he resulted in going all out with Blaze dragon king mode, demolition fist. If Natsu didn't think he was strong he would've finished him off with a normal attack. Debunked.

Base Natsu's casual punches? Nothing impressive here.

You also excluded the part where Jacob was damaged by Leo's punch.

Spoiler: Jacob being Hit by Leo

And you are proving my point without even knowing it. Natsu knew that he needed FDKM + FDK spell to beat Jacob which is why he didn't just end him in Base Form + Casual Attack. This is the inconsistency I'm talking about.

Neinharts durability was low from the start. He went from a scrapper to a stable boy.

Enchanted Neinhart? Absolutely no basis once again. Especially since Neinhart was enhanced in magic power.

 

[Seven777]

How does Natsu not have Spriggan level MP? The Spriggans were surprised by his magic power... You keep using the same argument that they were shocked from Brandish's magic power but this was the beginning of the arc. Now, even Brandish recognizes Natsu's power.



Highly doubt it. What makes you think Makarov has higher MP than Gray? From being worn out against fighting Alvarez soldiers?



No, he isn't. We're talking about Enhanced Neinhart in this scnenario. He was significantly stronger. His historias didn't affect his attack power or durability. But his enchantment did. He was even able to use a new attack cthat damaged Brandish who has Spriggan level durability.

No, it was specifically stated that Neinhart's magic power was increased.

Spoiler: Neinhart's Power Increased

The Spriggans, for the most part, were stated to be on similar levels in Magic Power. So it is only logical for Neinhart to have a lot more magic power than Jacob after being enchanted.



I've never seen the author of a manga canonized power rankings explicitly. This means we have to use our own logic to deduce these kinds of things.



Okay, whatever you say. But Brandish was surprised by Natsu's power just so you know. And Gray/Erza should be on his level in magic power. So if you don't think any of them have Sprigan level MP, you're going against your own logic.



I don't think you understand what I mean by going all out.

Back in the Tartaros Arc, Jellal used Sema on the Oración Seis while holding back. Hence, they survived. Jellal could have purposely killed them if he wanted to by going all out (like Neinhart).



She can't because she isn't good herself. That is like saying a kid tells you that you're good at fighting. But would a martial arts instructor say the same?

Half the time, Jacob used his magic to hit Natsu (like fading or Stealth). And like I said, Natsu isn't excellent at CQC either. He's average.



Yeah, and he was also injured by Leo.

Spoiler: Leo Damages Jacob

You realize that Dimaria tanked a punch from DF Wendy without any scratches whatsoever, right? And DF Wendy is stronger than Leo.



Obviously... I'm talking about compared to Ikusa-Tsunagi. I think it's clear Base Neinharr is the weakest Spriggan.



If you're going to go by words like Natsu and Gray being surprised of a Spriggan's MP, then you'd also have to acknowledge Brandish's words which implies that the enchantment increased magic power (since MP negates hax).

Spoiler: Brandish's Words

Even Brandish acknowledges Enchanted Neinhart's power here. Why? Because Brandish knows Eileen and that her magic is not something to be taken lightly. Note that this was after she had seen Natsu's power against Jacob and was surprised by it.

Spoiler: Brandish Acknowledges Natsu's Power for the 1st Time

---

Steam? The only way for steam to appear is if there is heat. Obviously, Gray is a ice mage so that can't be true. And the reason you don't see on August is because he wasn't powering up. Meaning his magic power was not boosted. He already has high MP to begin with.

And someone like Natsu was already praised for his power by a Spriggan. Since Gray is similar to him in MP as shown in E.N.D vs Gray, then there is no reason to believe Gray doesn't have Spriggan level MP.



Why not? Natsu was just as afraid as Gray. He just didn't express in words. Rather, he had the same expressions as Gray. And if Natsu is Spriggan level (which he is), then so is Gray. They were fighting on par for the most part. Besides, if Natsu and Gray is not Spriggan level, then nobody in Ishgar is Spriggan level.



Base Natsu's casual punches? Nothing impressive here.

You also excluded the part where Jacob was damaged by Leo's punch.

Spoiler: Jacob being Hit by Leo

And you are proving my point without even knowing it. Natsu knew that he needed FDKM + FDK spell to beat Jacob which is why he didn't just end him in Base Form + Casual Attack. This is the inconsistency I'm talking about.



Enchanted Neinhart? Absolutely no basis once again. Especially since Neinhart was enhanced in magic power.

Spriggans were surprised by Natsu's strength, not by his MP, like i said MP doesnt always equal strength, Erza, Gray, Natsu, none have spriggan level MP, they are simply superior fighters. The fact that Brandish was surprised that Natsu could beat Jacob and Neinhart says it all, she couldnt sense great MP coming from him, Natsu simply surpassed her expectation without it, doing what Brandish thought would be impossible with his level of MP.
Gray used Makarov as a comparison to Brandish, implying he was the closest in strength that came to mind at the time, Makarov in terms of MP still sets the bar among Fairy Tail wizards, however this doesnt mean he is the best fighter.

We dont know how enhanced Neinhart was or what was enhanced, all he said was that this new power surpassed his own magic, this does not mean he got an increase in MP. Neinhart's attack was also tanked by Lucy. Neinhart is stronger yes, but we dont know what aspect of his strength has increased, however we can determine from how he was one shot by Natsu that durability wasnt one of the things increased.
MP negates haxx? Since when? Did Mest not haxx Brandish on August? Resistance to hax may simply have been Eileen's magic conflicting with Brandish's, no surprise that Brandish's magic couldnt overcome Eileen's.

Jellal wasnt holding back on the OS, nothing at all implies that he was.

Jacob wasnt injured by Leo, there was no bruise or scuff mark at all, he was simply blinded by his light, the combined Lucy kick and FD Claw was the first visible injury he got, pretty decent.

 

[The President]

Jacob's durability is probably better than Invel's, or the same level. Neinharts has to be the lowest. I agree on Brandish/Dimaria.

Agree on Brandish/Dimaria.

My general list would be
God Serena, Wall
Chronos, Ajeel (or Chronos goes up with Wall/GS)
Jacob
Invel Brandish DiMaria
Neinhart

Yeah I can agree with that. Serena's physical strength and durability impressed me even more then his magic tbh, I reckon thats what he used (along with some basic magic) to destroy the GoI in the first round (lacks in speed though). Wall has the best durability feats with no-selling Laxuses punches IMO. Ajeel and DiMaria (Chronos) go a level below those two with the former taking Jupiter with minimal injuries and the latter no-selling DF Wendy's punch. Then a level below those two would be Jacob and Brandish. Jacob got bruised by Lokes punch so he's not all that, but taking a named attack from current Natsu and Lucy's attack at the same time to the face with only mediocre damage is pretty impressive. Brandish took AM from Lucy with relatively minimal damage (compared to Lucy who took more, and is known to be decently durable herself). Then goes Invel, base DiMaria. The former whom doesn't have much durability feats aside from getting his teeth knocked out with every punch from Gray and the latter getting a big bruise from Wendy's kick. And then Neinhart who has jobber durability.

I'd also put Bradman at Ajeel level durability since he took a few blows from DF Gajeel before getting completely pulverized. August and Irene are tough to call since they have insane MP but aren't physical fighters in the slightest (akin to Neinhart, except far more MP). August strikes me as having at least the same durability level as Serena and Wall. Irene might be a level below (she seems even more like a support type) with Ajeel and Chronos DiMaria.

 

[EdwardRictofin]

How does Natsu not have Spriggan level MP? The Spriggans were surprised by his magic power... You keep using the same argument that they were shocked from Brandish's magic power but this was the beginning of the arc. Now, even Brandish recognizes Natsu's power.



Highly doubt it. What makes you think Makarov has higher MP than Gray? From being worn out against fighting Alvarez soldiers?



No, he isn't. We're talking about Enhanced Neinhart in this scnenario. He was significantly stronger. His historias didn't affect his attack power or durability. But his enchantment did. He was even able to use a new attack cthat damaged Brandish who has Spriggan level durability.

No, it was specifically stated that Neinhart's magic power was increased.

Spoiler: Neinhart's Power Increased

The Spriggans, for the most part, were stated to be on similar levels in Magic Power. So it is only logical for Neinhart to have a lot more magic power than Jacob after being enchanted.



I've never seen the author of a manga canonized power rankings explicitly. This means we have to use our own logic to deduce these kinds of things.



Okay, whatever you say. But Brandish was surprised by Natsu's power just so you know. And Gray/Erza should be on his level in magic power. So if you don't think any of them have Sprigan level MP, you're going against your own logic.



I don't think you understand what I mean by going all out.

Back in the Tartaros Arc, Jellal used Sema on the Oración Seis while holding back. Hence, they survived. Jellal could have purposely killed them if he wanted to by going all out (like Neinhart).



She can't because she isn't good herself. That is like saying a kid tells you that you're good at fighting. But would a martial arts instructor say the same?

Half the time, Jacob used his magic to hit Natsu (like fading or Stealth). And like I said, Natsu isn't excellent at CQC either. He's average.



Yeah, and he was also injured by Leo.

Spoiler: Leo Damages Jacob

You realize that Dimaria tanked a punch from DF Wendy without any scratches whatsoever, right? And DF Wendy is stronger than Leo.



Obviously... I'm talking about compared to Ikusa-Tsunagi. I think it's clear Base Neinharr is the weakest Spriggan.



If you're going to go by words like Natsu and Gray being surprised of a Spriggan's MP, then you'd also have to acknowledge Brandish's words which implies that the enchantment increased magic power (since MP negates hax).

Spoiler: Brandish's Words

Even Brandish acknowledges Enchanted Neinhart's power here. Why? Because Brandish knows Eileen and that her magic is not something to be taken lightly. Note that this was after she had seen Natsu's power against Jacob and was surprised by it.

Spoiler: Brandish Acknowledges Natsu's Power for the 1st Time

---

Steam? The only way for steam to appear is if there is heat. Obviously, Gray is a ice mage so that can't be true. And the reason you don't see on August is because he wasn't powering up. Meaning his magic power was not boosted. He already has high MP to begin with.

And someone like Natsu was already praised for his power by a Spriggan. Since Gray is similar to him in MP as shown in E.N.D vs Gray, then there is no reason to believe Gray doesn't have Spriggan level MP.



Why not? Natsu was just as afraid as Gray. He just didn't express in words. Rather, he had the same expressions as Gray. And if Natsu is Spriggan level (which he is), then so is Gray. They were fighting on par for the most part. Besides, if Natsu and Gray is not Spriggan level, then nobody in Ishgar is Spriggan level.



Base Natsu's casual punches? Nothing impressive here.

You also excluded the part where Jacob was damaged by Leo's punch.

Spoiler: Jacob being Hit by Leo

And you are proving my point without even knowing it. Natsu knew that he needed FDKM + FDK spell to beat Jacob which is why he didn't just end him in Base Form + Casual Attack. This is the inconsistency I'm talking about.



Enchanted Neinhart? Absolutely no basis once again. Especially since Neinhart was enhanced in magic power.

Enchanted Neinhart has two feats, Brandish's magic not working on him and blowing air.

Jacob wasn't damaged by Leo. That scratch is nothing to Jacob, he took FDK demolition fist and suffered little injuries.

Narsu isn't on spriggan level either. He fought 3 Spriggans with the most convenient plot devices to aid him. Jacob can win the fight in seconds with transport, he can go invisible and slit his throat. Brandish can explode his head or increase the size of his bones. Dimaria can top time and kill him. And before you bring up him beating her, it was END not Natsu. Debunked.

The hell? August was definitely powering up with his black skin form. Have you never seen ice in your entire life? If goes off cold air, visible air.

Jacob had little damage from an all out Natsu. Neinhart looks like he got
ran over by a bus. Debunked.

Also when Brandish was getting attacked by Neinhart, she didn't get cuts like Natsu did.

Brandish has better durability than Natsu.

 

[Arjuna]

If Natsu doesn't have Spriggan level MP then he can't produce attacks with enough fire power to defeat a Spriggan.And Jacob doesn't have bad durability like Neinhart.Infact when he activated FDKM Jacob was burning from it's aura itself.If this not Spriggan level MP then i don't know what it is…

 

[Static]

Enchanted Neinhart has two feats, Brandish's magic not working on him and blowing air.

Jacob wasn't damaged by Leo. That scratch is nothing to Jacob, he took FDK demolition fist and suffered little injuries.

Narsu isn't on spriggan level either. He fought 3 Spriggans with the most convenient plot devices to aid him. Jacob can win the fight in seconds with transport, he can go invisible and slit his throat. Brandish can explode his head or increase the size of his bones. Dimaria can top time and kill him. And before you bring up him beating her, it was END not Natsu. Debunked.

The hell? August was definitely powering up with his black skin form. Have you never seen ice in your entire life? If goes off cold air, visible air.

Jacob had little damage from an all out Natsu. Neinhart looks like he got
ran over by a bus. Debunked.

Also when Brandish was getting attacked by Neinhart, she didn't get cuts like Natsu did.

Brandish has better durability than Natsu.

Enchanted Neinhart has two feats, Brandish's magic not working on him and blowing air.

Jacob wasn't damaged by Leo. That scratch is nothing to Jacob, he took FDK demolition fist and suffered little injuries.

Narsu isn't on spriggan level either. He fought 3 Spriggans with the most convenient plot devices to aid him. Jacob can win the fight in seconds with transport, he can go invisible and slit his throat. Brandish can explode his head or increase the size of his bones. Dimaria can top time and kill him. And before you bring up him beating her, it was END not Natsu. Debunked.

The hell? August was definitely powering up with his black skin form. Have you never seen ice in your entire life? If goes off cold air, visible air.

Jacob had little damage from an all out Natsu. Neinhart looks like he got
ran over by a bus. Debunked.

Also when Brandish was getting attacked by Neinhart, she didn't get cuts like Natsu did.

Brandish has better durability than Natsu.

Jacob wasn't damaged by Demolition Fist? Dude was literally flinching from BDKM, now imagine once he's hitten by a BDKM punch. And he literally was knocked out by it. Before you bring up the panel in chapter 494 of him having only bandages, do remember he had a full day to heal. And that usually is enough for mages to heal completely.

Not only is he portrayed to be Spriggan level but he has the feats to support it too. Jacob won't defeat Natsu, he'll be flinching from BDKM aura all the time and that'll be enough time for a solid hit from Natsu. Also, why are you not bringing up the ones who Natsu could defeat? He defeated Neinhart, he defeats Ajeel, he defeats Wahl, he defeated Jacob, that's 4 of the twelve. How is he not Spriggan level? Even Brandish was shocked at how strong he was when he two shotted Neinhart.

No, giving off that steam is a proof of releasing high amounts of MP. It's not cold air, Jellal too was releasing it when Neinhart injured Erza. I agree with you on the August part though.

But Brandish got cuts too? Also, keep in mind Natsu went into the brunt of the whirlwind, whereas Brandish didn't.

Ughhh, it's such a pain to type in mobile.

 

[EdwardRictofin]

Jacob wasn't damaged by Demolition Fist? Dude was literally flinching from BDKM, now imagine once he's hitten by a BDKM punch. And he literally was knocked out by it. Before you bring up the panel in chapter 494 of him having only bandages, do remember he had a full day to heal. And that usually is enough for mages to heal completely.

Not only is he portrayed to be Spriggan level but he has the feats to support it too. Jacob won't defeat Natsu, he'll be flinching from BDKM aura all the time and that'll be enough time for a solid hit from Natsu. Also, why are you not bringing up the ones who Natsu could defeat? He defeated Neinhart, he defeats Ajeel, he defeats Wahl, he defeated Jacob, that's 4 of the twelve. How is he not Spriggan level? Even Brandish was shocked at how strong he was when he two shotted Neinhart.

No, giving off that steam is a proof of releasing high amounts of MP. It's not cold air, Jellal too was releasing it when Neinhart injured Erza. I agree with you on the August part though.

But Brandish got cuts too? Also, keep in mind Natsu went into the brunt of the whirlwind, whereas Brandish didn't.

Ughhh, it's such a pain to type in mobile.

Brandish was attacked head on and no blood came out of her like Natsu.

You have to stop with this one sided arguments. Jacob is strong enough to clap his hands or go invisible. Natsu's aura of BDKM is unknown and you can't use the one with Zeref as an anti feat because it wasn't his power.

The flames around his aren't very big.
http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/479/18

Wahl can compete with Laxus in raw power. Natsu is still far below him so he isn't defeating Wahl.

Let me play out fights.
Ajeel uses sandworld and traps Natsu. Yes, FDKM can get rid of the sand but Natsu will be out of that mode long before he gets rid of all the sand. Ajeel was way stronger than Erza and she is still above Natsu proven in the latest chapter.

The only Spriggan Natsu could dream of beating is Neinhart. But let's not forget he can summon Mard Geer the strongest demon, Jackal, Zancrow. Neinhart can also drop Jellal tiers who is also above Natsu with a wave of his hand.

You can't use any of those as anti feats.

Laxus and Erza took a lot longer than a day to fully recover. Defeating Spriggans does not make you on their level. Natsu isn't like that far below them, he's strong enough to compete with them.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Spriggans were surprised by Natsu's strength, not by his MP, like i said MP doesnt always equal strength, Erza, Gray, Natsu, none have spriggan level MP, they are simply superior fighters. The fact that Brandish was surprised that Natsu could beat Jacob and Neinhart says it all, she couldnt sense great MP coming from him, Natsu simply surpassed her expectation without it, doing what Brandish thought would be impossible with his level of MP.
Gray used Makarov as a comparison to Brandish, implying he was the closest in strength that came to mind at the time, Makarov in terms of MP still sets the bar among Fairy Tail wizards, however this doesnt mean he is the best fighter.

For the last time, magic power is related to a character's overall power. The mere fact that Invel and Brandish were both taken aback by Gray and Natsu means that they are indeed Spriggan level in MP.

Spoiler: Invel Shocked by Gray's MP

Spoiler: Brandish Mentioning Natsu's Power

Spoiler: Gray and Natsu Surprised by Brandish's MP

All of their expressions are the same. You are just being selective with the panels that prove your point.

Oh, and Makarov does not set the bar for Fairy Tail Wizards. Since you believe so much in expressions and words, here is proof.

Spoiler: Makarov Mentions Gray and Lucy's MP

Talk about the ignorance.

We dont know how enhanced Neinhart was or what was enhanced, all he said was that this new power surpassed his own magic, this does not mean he got an increase in MP. Neinhart's attack was also tanked by Lucy. Neinhart is stronger yes, but we dont know what aspect of his strength has increased, however we can determine from how he was one shot by Natsu that durability wasnt one of the things increased.
MP negates haxx? Since when? Did Mest not haxx Brandish on August? Resistance to hax may simply have been Eileen's magic conflicting with Brandish's, no surprise that Brandish's magic couldnt overcome Eileen's.

If Neinhart surpassing his own magic doesn't mean he got an increase in MP, then what does it mean? The author doesn't need to put in "magic power" every single time for something so simple. Like I said, durability doesn't have to increase. Magic power alone affects one's durability.

MP negates hax since Brandish's magic didn't work on Neinhart. Simple.

Mest's magic only worked because he caught Brandish off guard since she was paying attention to August. Also, I'm not so sure if I would call Mest's magic "hax".

Eileen didn't know that Neinhart would encounter Brandish. His mission was to find Erza. So I don't see how you can come up with a theory like that.

Jellal wasnt holding back on the OS, nothing at all implies that he was.

I don't see how you can say nothing implies this when Jellal told Oración Seis that he had no intention of killing them and even asked them to join his guild...

Jacob wasnt injured by Leo, there was no bruise or scuff mark at all, he was simply blinded by his light, the combined Lucy kick and FD Claw was the first visible injury he got, pretty decent.

There was... Do I need to point it out to you?

Spoiler: Jacob's Damage

[/IMG]

Oh, I also forgot to mention that this guy was screaming in pain by Natsu's FDKM. So although his durability is not so low, it isn't that impressive either.

---

Enchanted Neinhart has two feats, Brandish's magic not working on him and blowing air.

Nothing here that I didn't already know.

Jacob wasn't damaged by Leo. That scratch is nothing to Jacob, he took FDK demolition fist and suffered little injuries.

It wasn't a scratch. It was a bruise. Scratches are generally more spaced out. As for Jacob, he was screaming in pain just from Natsu's aura. So nothing here proves that his durability is great.

Narsu isn't on spriggan level either. He fought 3 Spriggans with the most convenient plot devices to aid him. Jacob can win the fight in seconds with transport, he can go invisible and slit his throat. Brandish can explode his head or increase the size of his bones. Dimaria can top time and kill him. And before you bring up him beating her, it was END not Natsu. Debunked.

Natsu is by far Spriggan level. Of course he had the most convenient plot devices to aid him... That is literally what I'm arguing...

I'm trying to be the most reasonable here. I get criticized by Natsu fans who tell me I discredit him of his feats. Yet, users like you are also saying I'm hyping Natsu to be on a level he is not. Is there no middle ground here?

Let's set the record straight. Personally, I think Natsu is Spriggan level (Medium-High Tier). I just don't believe he is on the level of a Top-Tier Spriggan or Low-Tier Spriggan. Take what you want from this.

By the way, E.N.D is different. He is most definitely Top-Tier.

The hell? August was definitely powering up with his black skin form. Have you never seen ice in your entire life? If goes off cold air, visible air.

The auras are only shown if there is a major increase in MP. August not having any magic power coming off of him probably means he wasn't exactly going all out. Basically, the level he is at now doesn't take a lot of effort on his part.

Okay, call it cold air. I will wait until the anime comes out before I believe you.

Jacob had little damage from an all out Natsu. Neinhart looks like he got
ran over by a bus. Debunked.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. So how is this "debunked"?

Also when Brandish was getting attacked by Neinhart, she didn't get cuts like Natsu did.

Brandish has better durability than Natsu.

I don't see what you're trying to prove here. I never said otherwise.

 

[EdwardRictofin]

For the last time, magic power is related to a character's overall power. The mere fact that Invel and Brandish were both taken aback by Gray and Natsu means that they are indeed Spriggan level in MP.

Spoiler: Invel Shocked by Gray's MP

Spoiler: Brandish Mentioning Natsu's Power

Spoiler: Gray and Natsu Surprised by Brandish's MP

All of their expressions are the same. You are just being selective with the panels that prove your point.

Oh, and Makarov does not set the bar for Fairy Tail Wizards. Since you believe so much in expressions and words, here is proof.

Spoiler: Makarov Mentions Gray and Lucy's MP

Talk about the ignorance.



If Neinhart surpassing his own magic doesn't mean he got an increase in MP, then what does it mean? The author doesn't need to put in "magic power" every single time for something so simple. Like I said, durability doesn't have to increase. Magic power alone affects one's durability.

MP negates hax since Brandish's magic didn't work on Neinhart. Simple.

Mest's magic only worked because he caught Brandish off guard since she was paying attention to August. Also, I'm not so sure if I would call Mest's magic "hax".

Eileen didn't know that Neinhart would encounter Brandish. His mission was to find Erza. So I don't see how you can come up with a theory like that.



I don't see how you can say nothing implies this when Jellal told Oración Seis that he had no intention of killing them and even asked them to join his guild...



There was... Do I need to point it out to you?

Spoiler: Jacob's Damage

[/IMG]

Oh, I also forgot to mention that this guy was screaming in pain by Natsu's FDKM. So although his durability is not so low, it isn't that impressive either.

---

Nothing here that I didn't already know.



It wasn't a scratch. It was a bruise. Scratches are generally more spaced out. As for Jacob, he was screaming in pain just from Natsu's aura. So nothing here proves that his durability is great.



Natsu is by far Spriggan level. Of course he had the most convenient plot devices to aid him... That is literally what I'm arguing...

I'm trying to be the most reasonable here. I get criticized by Natsu fans who tell me I discredit him of his feats. Yet, users like you are also saying I'm hyping Natsu to be on a level he is not. Is there no middle ground here?

Let's set the record straight. Personally, I think Natsu is Spriggan level (Medium-High Tier). I just don't believe he is on the level of a Top-Tier Spriggan or Low-Tier Spriggan. Take what you want from this.

By the way, E.N.D is different. He is most definitely Top-Tier.



The auras are only shown if there is a major increase in MP. August not having any magic power coming off of him probably means he wasn't exactly going all out. Basically, the level he is at now doesn't take a lot of effort on his part.

Okay, call it cold air. I will wait until the anime comes out before I believe you.



This is what I've been trying to say all along. So how is this "debunked"?



I don't see what you're trying to prove here. I never said otherwise.

So you acknowledge the fact he had ass pulls not making him strong enough to counter their hax but still say he's spriggan tier? Honestly I don't know why Neinharts a spriggan, the dude can get one shotted by most mages if they land a hit. But hey, he one shotted Jellal .

For the other post above, Invel was not shocked of his Grays power. He was shocked that even after "killing himself" he came back. Imagine seeing your dog get ran over then a minute later it comes running back to you.

The point of that scratch is pointless. Is Gildarts weak because he was being pounded by the armies blast?
No.

Being able to compete with someone in battle doesn't make them spriggan tier. Gajeel isn't stronger than Gray but he's strong enough to compete with him.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

So you acknowledge the fact he had ass pulls not making him strong enough to counter their hax but still say he's spriggan tier? Honestly I don't know why Neinharts a spriggan, the dude can get one shotted by most mages if they land a hit. But hey, he one shotted Jellal .

For the other post above, Invel was not shocked of his Grays power. He was shocked that even after "killing himself" he came back. Imagine seeing your dog get ran over then a minute later it comes running back to you.

The point of that scratch is pointless. Is Gildarts weak because he was being pounded by the armies blast?
No.

Being able to compete with someone in battle doesn't make them spriggan tier. Gajeel isn't stronger than Gray but he's strong enough to compete with him.

Not quite. Here is what I've been trying to say the past few pages:

• Natsu is on the level of a Medium-High Tier Spriggan.
• He has enough MP (at full power) to negate a Spriggan's hax which would fall under NLF.
• But he shouldn't be able to one-shot any Spriggan in Base Form without the use of PoF or a stronger form like FDKM/DF.

The only person who should be able to one-shot Enchanted Neinhart is someone of August's caliber or higher.

I don't mind people saying Natsu one-shotted a Spriggan. He did. But don't factor this into Power Rankings which measures a character's true power unless you account for PoF and plot (probably the last time I'll use this word for the sake of not going off-topic). Base Neinhart may have poor durability. But Enchanted Neinhart is different.

---

No, Invel was sweating because of Gray's magic power. Had he just turned around with enlarged eyes, I would agree with you.

I wouldn't say Gildarts is weak but that would factor into his durability. Besides, defense is only one aspect of a person's overall power. Stamina/Endurance is just as important in my opinion which people tend to forget.

Yes, it does. Spriggan tier consists of being anywhere from Neinhart's level to August's level. It is a wide spectrum of power. Spriggan level is more specific. Being more or less equal to a Spriggan means you're Spriggan Tier. Basically, overwhelming a Spriggan and defeating them are both considered Spriggan Tier.

Now being on August's level is totally different from being on Neinhart's level. Natsu is easily passed Neinhart's level. But he should be nowhere near August's level without transforming into E.N.D.

 

[M3J]

No. Igneel power was not enough to make a dent in Zerefs body. Now END and Gray are fighting and it doesn't look like Gray or Natsu are up to par with that strength. Not even close.

Where did you get this from? Zeref was getting wounded and feeling pain from Natsu's attacks, and there's a chance Igneel's power would have killed or really damaged Zeref if Happy didn't hold Natsu back.

Doubt 99% of the characters would be up to par with Igneel's strength. Even the most powerful dragon/dragon slayer had a hard time beating Igneel.

 

[Seven777]

For the last time, magic power is related to a character's overall power. The mere fact that Invel and Brandish were both taken aback by Gray and Natsu means that they are indeed Spriggan level in MP.

Spoiler: Invel Shocked by Gray's MP

Spoiler: Brandish Mentioning Natsu's Power

Spoiler: Gray and Natsu Surprised by Brandish's MP

All of their expressions are the same. You are just being selective with the panels that prove your point.

Oh, and Makarov does not set the bar for Fairy Tail Wizards. Since you believe so much in expressions and words, here is proof.

Spoiler: Makarov Mentions Gray and Lucy's MP

Talk about the ignorance.



If Neinhart surpassing his own magic doesn't mean he got an increase in MP, then what does it mean? The author doesn't need to put in "magic power" every single time for something so simple. Like I said, durability doesn't have to increase. Magic power alone affects one's durability.

MP negates hax since Brandish's magic didn't work on Neinhart. Simple.

Mest's magic only worked because he caught Brandish off guard since she was paying attention to August. Also, I'm not so sure if I would call Mest's magic "hax".

Eileen didn't know that Neinhart would encounter Brandish. His mission was to find Erza. So I don't see how you can come up with a theory like that.



I don't see how you can say nothing implies this when Jellal told Oración Seis that he had no intention of killing them and even asked them to join his guild...



There was... Do I need to point it out to you?

Spoiler: Jacob's Damage

[/IMG]

Oh, I also forgot to mention that this guy was screaming in pain by Natsu's FDKM. So although his durability is not so low, it isn't that impressive either.

---

Nothing here that I didn't already know.



It wasn't a scratch. It was a bruise. Scratches are generally more spaced out. As for Jacob, he was screaming in pain just from Natsu's aura. So nothing here proves that his durability is great.



Natsu is by far Spriggan level. Of course he had the most convenient plot devices to aid him... That is literally what I'm arguing...

I'm trying to be the most reasonable here. I get criticized by Natsu fans who tell me I discredit him of his feats. Yet, users like you are also saying I'm hyping Natsu to be on a level he is not. Is there no middle ground here?

Let's set the record straight. Personally, I think Natsu is Spriggan level (Medium-High Tier). I just don't believe he is on the level of a Top-Tier Spriggan or Low-Tier Spriggan. Take what you want from this.

By the way, E.N.D is different. He is most definitely Top-Tier.



The auras are only shown if there is a major increase in MP. August not having any magic power coming off of him probably means he wasn't exactly going all out. Basically, the level he is at now doesn't take a lot of effort on his part.

Okay, call it cold air. I will wait until the anime comes out before I believe you.



This is what I've been trying to say all along. So how is this "debunked"?



I don't see what you're trying to prove here. I never said otherwise.

You're wrong, you can be strong without spriggan level MP, MP affects strength, but it isnt everything.
Not selective of the panels im using, your panels just prove my point even more.
Invel was shocked Gray wasnt dead, not by his MP.
Brandish acknowledged Natsu as strong, said nothing about MP, which just proves my point, she said it herself, she misjudged him, the MP she could sense from him wasnt at a level that could beat a spriggan, however she can now see that even without it he is strong.

Your panel about Makarov proves one thing, that Gray and Lucy are stronger than when they were at Tartaros, not that the two of them have more MP than him. You are the ignorant one if you think Lucy has more MP than Makarov, even Mira was implied to have less.

Neinhart said that Eileen's enchanting techniques surpass his own magic, which they do, thats what it means.
Still dont get why you think Neinhart gets more magic power, Eileen isnt unlocking 2nd origin or anything, she is just enchanting him, do Natsu and Gajeel get more MP when Wendy enchants them? Did the Berserkers get more MP when Eileen enchanted them? Nothings states or even implies that getting enchanted increases MP.
Except we dont know that Neinhart got more MP or that MP negates haxx.
Mest can alter memories, the only magic more hax is Age Seal and Macro.
What theory did i come up with?

Not intending to kill doesnt mean not going all out, otherwise Fairy Tail would be holding back almost all the time, was Laxus holding back against Jura cause he didnt want Jura dead? Was Erza holding back against Minerva? Was Natsu holding back against Laxus? Jellal not wanting the OS dead simply means he isnt gonna kill them after he defeated them, not that he wasnt giving the fight his all.

That was Jacob's stubble dude... not an injury, and even if it was, is such a tiny scratch supposed to prove something? Natsu got scuffed by Baqel, Gajeel got scuffed by that other Azir squad guy, Gray got scratched up by a weakness bot, fodder blasts from Zeref's army scratched Natsu, even freaking Mirajane had scratches all over her body from that bloody Elfman robot.
Lucy is far more powerful than any of those fodders that scratched up Natsu,Gray, Gajeel, Mirajane, do they have shit durability?
Lucy is at least as powerful as DF Wendy, likely even stronger, which means that Loke, Lucy's strongest spirit hitting Jacob, is equivalent to DF Wendy using her strongest attack, a Dragon Slayer Secret Art, Jacob tanking that with barely any/no damage is very impressive, even a combined FD Claw and Regulus Lucy kick barely did anything.

 

[Hermit]

Also, base Brandish probably has lower durability then the average Spriggan (much like Jacob) and base DiMaria likely has even less then her (although with Chronos she gets average Spriggan durability).

Not entirely, base Brandish was able to tank attacks like Aqua Metria plus enchanted Neinhart's magical onslaught, you're selling her durability short here.
Base Dimaria took on attacks from a Dragon Slayer in Dragon Force with no injuries at all, her durability is honestly up there when it comes to the Spriggan 12

 

[Static]

Brandish was attacked head on and no blood came out of her like Natsu.

You have to stop with this one sided arguments. Jacob is strong enough to clap his hands or go invisible. Natsu's aura of BDKM is unknown and you can't use the one with Zeref as an anti feat because it wasn't his power.

The flames around his aren't very big.
http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/479/18

Wahl can compete with Laxus in raw power. Natsu is still far below him so he isn't defeating Wahl.

Let me play out fights.
Ajeel uses sandworld and traps Natsu. Yes, FDKM can get rid of the sand but Natsu will be out of that mode long before he gets rid of all the sand. Ajeel was way stronger than Erza and she is still above Natsu proven in the latest chapter.

The only Spriggan Natsu could dream of beating is Neinhart. But let's not forget he can summon Mard Geer the strongest demon, Jackal, Zancrow. Neinhart can also drop Jellal tiers who is also above Natsu with a wave of his hand.

You can't use any of those as anti feats.

Laxus and Erza took a lot longer than a day to fully recover. Defeating Spriggans does not make you on their level. Natsu isn't like that far below them, he's strong enough to compete with them.

1) Like I said, Natsu went straight into the attack and took the brunt of it hence the higher number of scratches. However, I admit Brandish has good durability as well.

2) It's not unknown. Jacob was screaming in pain from the BDKM aura and it even evaporated an entire lake or at least a lot of it. Going invisible means nothing as he can still get affected by attacks and so he will get affected by the BDKM aura.

I'll get back to this later. Kinda busy atm.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 17, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 17, 2016 ---

3) Wahl was on par with a severely weakened Laxus. Can you explain what feats of Wahl are on par with Natsu's?

4) Natsu doesn't have to burn away all the Sand World. He can simply just burn away the sand around his area and that'll leave Ajeel open when he comes for Natsu. And I'm pretty sure in a straight up, face-to-face fight Natsu can beat Ajeel.
Also, please mark those spoilers, the chapter hasn't come out yet

5) Those Historias you stated are not comparable to Natsu anymore. Mard Geer is GOI level whereas Natsu is a Spriggan tier. Jackal and Zancrow are either WS tier or even lower. Natsu one-shots them like he oneshotted Bluenote. Also, who is the Jellal tier character you speak of?

 

[The President]

Not entirely, base Brandish was able to tank attacks like Aqua Metria plus enchanted Neinhart's magical onslaught, you're selling her durability short here.

She didn't entirely tank AM but like I said, I took that into account. She most certainly didn't tank Neinharts magic attack, she was damaged by it but endured it long enough for Natsu to one-shot him.

Base Dimaria took on attacks from a Dragon Slayer in Dragon Force with no injuries at all, her durability is honestly up there when it comes to the Spriggan 12

No she didn't, she took one physical attack from DF Wendy (who is trash physically, which has been shown time and time again) got sent flying and was injured in base. Shes definitely not up there, with Chronos shes around Ajeels level of durability and below Serena and Wahls level. Without it she's fairly low on the totem poll. When it comes to physical attacks (her magic attacks are a different matter) quite frankly I don't see Wendy doing much to even someone like Bluenote. I'm giving her chronos a lot of benefit of the doubt to even put it at the same level as someone who took Jupiter with minimal injuries.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

You're wrong, you can be strong without spriggan level MP, MP affects strength, but it isnt everything.
Not selective of the panels im using, your panels just prove my point even more.
Invel was shocked Gray wasnt dead, not by his MP.
Brandish acknowledged Natsu as strong, said nothing about MP, which just proves my point, she said it herself, she misjudged him, the MP she could sense from him wasnt at a level that could beat a spriggan, however she can now see that even without it he is strong.

I never denied this. In fact, I already said that MP isn't equal to attack power. But the point here is that Natsu and Gray have shown to have Spriggan level MP.

Invel was shocked by Gray's MP... Why would he be sweating if he was just surprised by Gray being alive? Enlarged eyes alone already depicts this.

No. Brandish couldn't sense much of Natsu's MP in base form. But when he powers-up or uses PoF, that leads to a major increase in magic power. That is why she misjudged him. When I say Natsu and Gray have Spriggan level MP, I'm referring to their overall power including their strongest forms (not just base).

Your panel about Makarov proves one thing, that Gray and Lucy are stronger than when they were at Tartaros, not that the two of them have more MP than him. You are the ignorant one if you think Lucy has more MP than Makarov, even Mira was implied to have less.

Where was it implied that Mirajane has less MP than Makarov?

And no, I think Lucy has more MP than Makarov at this point. Makarov may have more attack power but he definitely isn't going to outlast Lucy considering he hasn't trained at all during the timeskip. This was shown when Makarov was barely able to survive against the Berserkers.

Neinhart said that Eileen's enchanting techniques surpass his own magic, which they do, thats what it means.
Still dont get why you think Neinhart gets more magic power, Eileen isnt unlocking 2nd origin or anything, she is just enchanting him, do Natsu and Gajeel get more MP when Wendy enchants them? Did the Berserkers get more MP when Eileen enchanted them? Nothings states or even implies that getting enchanted increases MP.
Except we dont know that Neinhart got more MP or that MP negates haxx.
Mest can alter memories, the only magic more hax is Age Seal and Macro.
What theory did i come up with?

The text never said anything about Eileen's enchanting techniques. It specifically stated that Neinhart himself surpassed his own magic.

The statement clearly indicates that he got a power increase from Eileen. If that isn't an obvious statement or indication to you, then this will go nowhere. As for Wendy, she doesn't increase her targets' MP. Instead, she makes them more powerful (attack) and durable (defense). The Berserkers, on the other hand, got upgraded combat abilities and an increase in power.

Altering memories is actually not that "hax". It would be on the same level as Mystogan's Sleep Magic. Age Seal and Macro are on a whole different level.

We know Neinhart got more MP and it is only reasonable that MP negates hax or the situation with Brandish/Neinhart wouldn't make sense.

You said that hax was negated because Eileen's magic conflicts with Brandish... That isn't the case because then you'd be implying two things. Either Eileen's magic conflicts with everyone or specifically Brandish. It cannot be "everyone" because then Zeref would only need Eileen to beat Acnologia. And it also cannot be "Brandish" because Eileen didn't know Neinhart was going to encounter her. So your explanation is far-fetched.

Not intending to kill doesnt mean not going all out, otherwise Fairy Tail would be holding back almost all the time, was Laxus holding back against Jura cause he didnt want Jura dead? Was Erza holding back against Minerva? Was Natsu holding back against Laxus? Jellal not wanting the OS dead simply means he isnt gonna kill them after he defeated them, not that he wasnt giving the fight his all.

I don't think you understand my point. Laxus doesn't have the power to kill Jura. Erza didn't have the power to kill Minerva. And Natsu's power was never enough to kill Laxus. Jellal, on the other hand, did. He specifically told Midnight that he wasn't going to kill him because he wanted to give them another chance to become good again. It is only logical that if this was Jellal's intent to begin with, he wouldn't hold back.

To reinforce this idea, there were fodders that survived Natsu's attack in the GMG after the timeskip. This means Natsu is at the power he currently is in right now. Are you going to tell me that Natsu wasn't holding back here and that those fodders were just strong opponents?

That was Jacob's stubble dude... not an injury, and even if it was, is such a tiny scratch supposed to prove something? Natsu got scuffed by Baqel, Gajeel got scuffed by that other Azir squad guy, Gray got scratched up by a weakness bot, fodder blasts from Zeref's army scratched Natsu, even freaking Mirajane had scratches all over her body from that bloody Elfman robot.
Lucy is far more powerful than any of those fodders that scratched up Natsu,Gray, Gajeel, Mirajane, do they have shit durability?
Lucy is at least as powerful as DF Wendy, likely even stronger, which means that Loke, Lucy's strongest spirit hitting Jacob, is equivalent to DF Wendy using her strongest attack, a Dragon Slayer Secret Art, Jacob tanking that with barely any/no damage is very impressive, even a combined FD Claw and Regulus Lucy kick barely did anything.

No, it wasn't. Look at the picture again. It's drawn differently. You can clearly see a circular shape where the punch landed. And by the way, this wasn't just a scratch. It was a bruise. As for your examples, those were scratches (or debris).

I never said anybody has poor durability so you're twisting my words here. My only point is that feats like those do reflect a character's durability.

No, Lucy is only as powerful as DF Wendy if you add up the power of all her spirits or account for her strongest attacks like Urano Metria and Aqua Metria. If you think Leo = DF Wendy, then that would mean Lucy is way stronger than DF Wendy (especially with Aquarius) which is not the case.

Regulus Lucy Kick is weak and Fire Dragon Claw is the most casual attack Natsu has in his arsenal.

 

[Seven777]

I never denied this. In fact, I already said that MP isn't equal to attack power. But the point here is that Natsu and Gray have shown to have Spriggan level MP.

Invel was shocked by Gray's MP... Why would he be sweating if he was just surprised by Gray being alive? Enlarged eyes alone already depicts this.

No. Brandish couldn't sense much of Natsu's MP in base form. But when he powers-up or uses PoF, that leads to a major increase in magic power. That is why she misjudged him. When I say Natsu and Gray have Spriggan level MP, I'm referring to their overall power including their strongest forms (not just base).



Where was it implied that Mirajane has less MP than Makarov?

And no, I think Lucy has more MP than Makarov at this point. Makarov may have more attack power but he definitely isn't going to outlast Lucy considering he hasn't trained at all during the timeskip. This was shown when Makarov was barely able to survive against the Berserkers.



The text never said anything about Eileen's enchanting techniques. It specifically stated that Neinhart himself surpassed his own magic.

The statement clearly indicates that he got a power increase from Eileen. If that isn't an obvious statement or indication to you, then this will go nowhere. As for Wendy, she doesn't increase her targets' MP. Instead, she makes them more powerful (attack) and durable (defense). The Berserkers, on the other hand, got upgraded combat abilities and an increase in power.

Altering memories is actually not that "hax". It would be on the same level as Mystogan's Sleep Magic. Age Seal and Macro are on a whole different level.

We know Neinhart got more MP and it is only reasonable that MP negates hax or the situation with Brandish/Neinhart wouldn't make sense.

You said that hax was negated because Eileen's magic conflicts with Brandish... That isn't the case because then you'd be implying two things. Either Eileen's magic conflicts with everyone or specifically Brandish. It cannot be "everyone" because then Zeref would only need Eileen to beat Acnologia. And it also cannot be "Brandish" because Eileen didn't know Neinhart was going to encounter her. So your explanation is far-fetched.



I don't think you understand my point. Laxus doesn't have the power to kill Jura. Erza didn't have the power to kill Minerva. And Natsu's power was never enough to kill Laxus. Jellal, on the other hand, did. He specifically told Midnight that he wasn't going to kill him because he wanted to give them another chance to become good again. It is only logical that if this was Jellal's intent to begin with, he wouldn't hold back.

To reinforce this idea, there were fodders that survived Natsu's attack in the GMG after the timeskip. This means Natsu is at the power he currently is in right now. Are you going to tell me that Natsu wasn't holding back here and that those fodders were just strong opponents?



No, it wasn't. Look at the picture again. It's drawn differently. You can clearly see a circular shape where the punch landed. And by the way, this wasn't just a scratch. It was a bruise. As for your examples, those were scratches (or debris).

I never said anybody has poor durability so you're twisting my words here. My only point is that feats like those do reflect a character's durability.

No, Lucy is only as powerful as DF Wendy if you add up the power of all her spirits or account for her strongest attacks like Urano Metria and Aqua Metria. If you think Leo = DF Wendy, then that would mean Lucy is way stronger than DF Wendy (especially with Aquarius) which is not the case.

Regulus Lucy Kick is weak and Fire Dragon Claw is the most casual attack Natsu has in his arsenal.

Why? Cause Gray had a bit of MP coming off him? Was just cause he was angry, Makarov can do that too...

Spoiler: Makarov angry at Hades

Means nothing but Gray was pissed, his MP is still below Makarov's.

Uh.... no.... wasnt shocked by Gray's MP, Invel himself explains why he was shocked, i didnt just pull that explanation out of my ass.

Spoiler: Invel surprised Gray is alive

Clear as day, "cant believe you still breathe" he says, eyes wide while sweating, doesnt say anything like "i cant believe your MP is so high".
The fact that she couldnt sense anything from him from the start tells us that his MP isnt on that level, a power up increases the strength of the users magic by using more of it, doesnt increase the amount he had initially, as shown by wizards tiring faster while transformed, instead of slower

Juliet and Heine said they would save the best for last i.e Makarov, and then went after Mirajane first
Lucy could possible outlast Makarov....maybe... doubt it, however not because she has more MP or even close to the amount Makarov has but cause shes young and fit.
Makarov still sets the bar for MP, as shown when Gray compared him to Brandish after saying "I've never felt this much MP before" and then "It might even be greater than gramps'"

It did say about Eileen's enchanting techniques

Spoiler: Eileens enchanting techniques

Says it clearly "you're bearing witness to Lady Eileen's formidable enchantment techniques. This unrivaled power exceeds even the limits of my own magic!"
Well, to be more accurate my "theory" is that EIleen's magic conflicts with everyone who has less magic than her, in other words Brandish hax cant affect Neinhart cause Neinhart is already under the influence of Eileen's stronger hax, if Eileen put less effort into the enchantment then maybe Brandish could do something, but that doesnt seem to be the case.

Jellal only said he wouldnt kill them after they were already defeated, so... yeah. And it turns out Jellal isnt capable of "killing" the OS either if we go by your logic, because absolutely nothing implies he was holding back. Just look at his face after the fight, he fought, far, FAR, harder than he did against Neinhart, this is what it looks like to go all out.

Spoiler: Jellal trashed

Seriously trying to tell me the guy in that image didnt have an all out brawl? Come on man.

Oh, you never said Jacob had poor durability? Ok then, so he just has as much durability as Natsu, Gajeel, Mira and Gray who also got scratched by fodder attacks, fair enough, i can agree to that.
Lucy with Loke= DF Wendy, sure, maybe not Shattering Light Skydrill level, but certainly more than regular punches and kicks, Loke is her strongest spirit. Lucy doesnt have Aquarius anymore.
Regulus Lucy kick being weak is pure speculation, in fact it is probably about as powerful as Aqua Metria considering that Aquarius and Leo were her two strongest spirits, so logically Leo Dress=Aquarius Dress.
Fire Dragon Claw isnt Natsu's most casual spell, Fire Dragon Iron Fist is, and look who that K.O'd