Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Seven777]

Ok
Then tell me where did you get racer wasnt serious
I mean the guy just blitz natsu gray and three other fodders, a feat far above tower of heaven arc jellal meteor. Then suddenly slow down for erza sake
She dodged racer when she wasnt looking at him in a non speed armor, thats not far below post ts base jellal feat
She used the souring armor for only a minute, before hot eye did that sneak attack. In that time no one managed to hit anyone. Thats racer plus cobra at the same time.
Base jellal was wrecked by racer plus cobra plus angle
So where are you getting base post ts jellal speed >> pr ts souring armor erza speed

He said he couldnt follow it, how the heck is he gonna block.
Laxus nor jellal got this kind of hype.

You know what else wendy did, stand her ground, something acnologia had trouble doing.
And are you sure wendy came between them, i thought she just put some sort of shield in front of erza

Knowing how fairy tail works, erza with some nakama speech will mostly handle irene

When Lyon was shocked at how Racer suddenly got even faster than he thought Racer was capable, Racer revealed that he didnt need to go full power from the get go against such weaklings.
Erza dodging an attack from Racer doesnt give her feats equivalent to Racer himself.
She used Soaring armor the moment Racer got involved.
I am getting base post ts Jellal speed>>pre ts Soaring armor Erza speed, from the fact that Jellal was actually shown to be moving at the same speed as Racer, rather than just doing a single skillful dodge like Erza did, and from the fact that unlike Erza, Jellal was actually capable of landing a hit on his enemy.

Makarov said he had trouble following it, not that he couldnt.
Dont know why you keep trying to bring Laxus into this. As for their speed hype, moving at the same speed as Racer in base is already a greater feat, as is blitzing Hades.

I assume Wendy cancelled the enchantment with one of her own, plus from the looks of it Eileen used a second enchantment on Acno to destroy his footing so the first could blast him back.
Still impressive though considering her own modest enchantments were able to match an enchantment from a high enchanter like Eileen.
Nah, you can see that Wendy was in front of Erza in the next panel, while in the previous one Wendy was behind with Lucy

 

[sharkai]

When Lyon was shocked at how Racer suddenly got even faster than he thought Racer was capable, Racer revealed that he didnt need to go full power from the get go against such weaklings.
Erza dodging an attack from Racer doesnt give her feats equivalent to Racer himself.
She used Soaring armor the moment Racer got involved.
I am getting base post ts Jellal speed>>pre ts Soaring armor Erza speed, from the fact that Jellal was actually shown to be moving at the same speed as Racer, rather than just doing a single skillful dodge like Erza did, and from the fact that unlike Erza, Jellal was actually capable of landing a hit on his enemy.

Makarov said he had trouble following it, not that he couldnt.
Dont know why you keep trying to bring Laxus into this. As for their speed hype, moving at the same speed as Racer in base is already a greater feat, as is blitzing Hades.

I assume Wendy cancelled the enchantment with one of her own, plus from the looks of it Eileen used a second enchantment on Acno to destroy his footing so the first could blast him back.
Still impressive though considering her own modest enchantments were able to match an enchantment from a high enchanter like Eileen.
Nah, you can see that Wendy was in front of Erza in the next panel, while in the previous one Wendy was behind with Lucy

You are correct
Wendy appeared between them.
No, I was talking about before Irene made her nuke stronger and sent Acnologia flying. Before that when Acno first blocked it, we even see a shot of his calves as he holds his position.
Wendy seems to have blocked the same Nuke with same amount of effort.
Hold on, how would Lyon know how fast racer was against erza, he was already out. And at that time I don't think racer attacked him at all. That happened later right ? When he was fighting with just gray, someone he already blitzed. So it's possible he wasn't using his speed then.

Beside erza isn't the only one who didn't hit, racer along with cobra couldn't hit her either. If he could go faster, then why couldn't he land a hit.

In chapter 367 jellal got up told meredy to stay back, and then both cobra and racer attacked, jellal in short got kicked around. This happened when angel didn't interfere in this exchange at this time. She interfered after he got kicked around. Or before he asked meredy to stay back again
So if no one is holding back and we use this alone
Then at least speed wise
Pre ts Souring armour erza > post ts base jellal

If markarov can't follow, then he has very little chance of blocking it.
If we are going to believe Lyon statement without any questions
We should accept what markarov said as well.

And erza dodged racer when she wasn't even looking at him. So she has that hype too.

I assume you think of jellal and laxus both as top tier speed character. That's where laxus came from


I compare characters by forming some sort of relation between them
Pre ts jellal blitzed natsu
Racer blitzed natsu, gray and three other people
Erza kept up with racer plus cobra

So I go like for speed
Erza > = racer > = jellal.



So I formed a link, using feats as shown in the manga, to show that in speed department they aren't that different.

 

[Seven777]

You are correct
Wendy appeared between them.
No, I was talking about before Irene made her nuke stronger and sent Acnologia flying. Before that when Acno first blocked it, we even see a shot of his calves as he holds his position.
Wendy seems to have blocked the same Nuke with same amount of effort.
Hold on, how would Lyon know how fast racer was against erza, he was already out. And at that time I don't think racer attacked him at all. That happened later right ? When he was fighting with just gray, someone he already blitzed. So it's possible he wasn't using his speed then.

Beside erza isn't the only one who didn't hit, racer along with cobra couldn't hit her either. If he could go faster, then why couldn't he land a hit.

In chapter 367 jellal got up told meredy to stay back, and then both cobra and racer attacked, jellal in short got kicked around. This happened when angel didn't interfere in this exchange at this time. She interfered after he got kicked around. Or before he asked meredy to stay back again
So if no one is holding back and we use this alone
Then at least speed wise
Pre ts Souring armour erza > post ts base jellal

If markarov can't follow, then he has very little chance of blocking it.
If we are going to believe Lyon statement without any questions
We should accept what markarov said as well.

And erza dodged racer when she wasn't even looking at him. So she has that hype too.

I assume you think of jellal and laxus both as top tier speed character. That's where laxus came from


I compare characters by forming some sort of relation between them
Pre ts jellal blitzed natsu
Racer blitzed natsu, gray and three other people
Erza kept up with racer plus cobra

So I go like for speed
Erza > = racer > = jellal.



So I formed a link, using feats as shown in the manga, to show that in speed department they aren't that different.

Difference is that Acno blocked the spell with his body, and thus the ground beneath him gave way from the force, Wendy blocked/canceled(or something along those lines) the spell with another enchantment, so there was no push back.

Because Lyon was there when Racer attacked her, Natsu and Gray. Yep, it happened with the Gray vs Racer fight. I'll admit its not exactly ironclad, but the manga portrayed Racer using a level of speed that had not yet been seen.

Racer did land a hit on her arm, Cobra did land a hit too, a fatal one.
The "fight" you are using as proof of Erza's speed consisted of Erza at first trying and failing to land some hits on Cobra 1v1, dodging Racer and Cobra's simultaneous attack by skillfully jumping into the air, performing a fancy counter attack mid air that hit no one, got hit by Hoteye, got hit by Racer, finished off by Cobra. It is impressive to be sure, but it was portrayed more as a feat of skill, rather than a feat of speed, nothing she did really screamed "speed".

Chapter 367 wasnt when the fight started, at that point Jellal was already getting overwhelmed by their numbers. The fight with Jellal started 365, with Racer trying to surprise Jellal, but Jellal reacted and was shown to be moving at the same speed as Racer dodging multiple attacks, he then blocked an attack from Cobra and threw him at Racer sending them both tumbling, then shrugged off Angel's angels, by this point he had already done more than Erza, he definitely slowed down afterwards, but thats better than being poisoned on the ground like Erza.

As i said, its not that Makarov couldnt follow it, he just had trouble doing so, also, reacting to something right in front of you is easier than following something with your eyes from afar, sorta like baseball, if you've ever played. In a fight no one follows the path of their opponents fist, they see it and react, usually peripheral vision is more than enough.
Lyon made no statement.

Erza didnt keep up with Racer, she dodged a single attack, doesnt put her speed at the same level as his, she couldnt even land a hit on Cobra 1v1, Racer's speed>>Cobra's. So your "character relationships" arent quite accurate.

 

[Axiomus]

@sharkai

What jump?

Acnologia's roar is huge. Natsu is roughly the size of Igneel's hands. Acnologia's roar was the size of Igneel's torso. That's large enough to engulf an entire human sized figure easily. Dodging one of Acnologia's roars would be like dodging a large roar from Laxus, Natsu, or Gajeel. Also, I would not be at all surprised if Acnologia's roars can vary in size. Almost all of the dragon slayers can vary the sizes of their roars. There's no good reason why Acnologia can't roar the size of one of Natsu's FDK roars if he truly wanted to.

Spoiler: Igneel and Natsu

Spoiler: Acnologia's roar against Igneel

Spoiler: Acnologia's roar that finished Igneel

Acnologia's roar would probably be as large as Natsu's largest roars if he used it in his human form. Also, it would be super-easy for Acnologia to simply aim down a little bit and have the roar strike the ground and explode. Alternatively, he can also fly up and nuke the ground. In cases like those, there would be no "dodging". The reason Igneel dodged Acnologia's roar is because they were fighting high above the skies. Had they been fighting on ground-level, Acnologia's roar would have eventually hit something and exploded. This also makes it unlikely for someone to be able to dodge Acnologia's roar. Had Acnologia used that exact roar, indoors, against Kagura, the roar would likely have simply exploded once it hit something solid. The blast would have engulfed the entire building, and then a large portion of the city.

Spoiler: Acnologia's roars when he aims down

My whole point is that it is entirely possible for Acnologia himself to move faster than his own roars. Would that make it somewhat difficult for him to land a clean shot against someone who can move as fast as he can? Sure. However, strictly speaking no-one is on Acnologia's level anymore. The one opponent, Igneel, that can be argued to be Acnologia's equal was able to dodge his roars whilst had a much harder time with him physically. I give Irene credit where credit is due for being able to dodge an explosion of that size, which is impressive in and of itself. But not for being able to outrun Acnologia's physical attacks, which would require her being faster than Acnologia.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Bro it doesn't matter if her first hit didn't push him back. Her first hit actually hurt him. You act like Racer's or Cobra's first attack did crap to Jellal lol.

Happy slow down progressively in the fight. If they were actually one on one on the ground Natsu would've won. Brain already admitted Natsu as the stronger of the two and was going to enlist Natsu into OS over Cobra.

Spoiler

Are you blind? It literally just said Natsu, Laxus, and Gajeel are true DS. You know when you're true DS is when you have motion sickness. Sting literally just said it.

Sting and Rogue didn't kill their Dragons at all. They only had memories of doing it but they actually didn't do it.

Natsu was stronger than Gajeel in an even fight and stronger than Cobra in an even fight. True DS are stronger than regular DS.

Cobra is a true DS now he wasn't in x784 and x791.

Jellal actually blocked Cobra's first move while he just stood in Sorano's and casually bitch slapped it away, that's still not impressive. Both Happy and Natsu were affected and both of them slowed down. If Happy's movement speed is>>>Natsu's he's still going to be faster when they're both poisoned. Brain said that because Cobra lost to Natsu via shouting.....Cobra was still THE STRONGER COMBATANT AND NATSU WON VIA EXPLOITING A WEAKNESS IN COBRA'S MAGIC.

Sting also said they were true dragons slayers because they killed their parent dragons.


STING AND ROUGE THOUGHT THE KILLED THEIR DRAGONS DURING THE GMG WHICH IS WHY THEY SAID THEY WERE TRUE DS AT THE TIME. Natsu was stronger than Gajeel at one point but not by much, whereas Natsu was never stronger than Cobra before Tenrou Island.

 

[Nemispelled]

Alright, so this post will be more of an analysis instead of normal power ranking:

First off, lately in Fairy Tail, I've noticed that the community has started to make up words when describing Gray's power...

To be honest, I really don't know where this term came from, but I would like to address it here to clear stuff up.


I noticed that people have started to distinguish regular old "Gray" from "Darkness Gray" in terms of power. Let me ask you an honest question:

Is there any evidence of this?

As far as I'm concerned, "Gray" and the made up term "Darkness Gray" should be treated as a single persona.

I don't get why people act as if the two are different when they are clearly the same person.


Simply put, whenever we are powerranking/powerscaling Gray, we should look at him as if he is Darkness Gray.

They both possess the same power, the only difference is that we are calling that whole thing "Gray". In fact, that is Gray.


So idk why there are people saying stuff like "Is this Darkness Gray we are talking about?" or "Well, in this case, since this is Darkness Gray..."


Here are a few reasons on why I decided to make this post:


1.) Let's start out with the basics... Has Mashima ever distinguished the difference between "Gray" and "Darkness Gray"??

If Mashima has never attached an epithet or a prefix of "Darkness" in front of Gray's name, then why are we treating them as 2 completely different individuals?

Darkness Gray is not a power-up. It is Gray when he is fighting seriously and putting immense effort into his battles.

You can say that is Gray showing his true power.

But power-up? Give me a break..



2.) Since when have we ever referred to an angry Natsu as "Enraged Natsu"?

Plenty of times throughout the manga, Natsu has been pissed at the end of his battles with veins popping out from his face. Then he starts to get "fired up" and proceeds to crush his opponents.

However, I don't see people distinguish the difference between Enraged Natsu and Natsu. They call the whole thing Natsu and use that to powerrank/powerscale him.

People never say "Wait... are we talking about Enraged Natsu or just plain ol' Natsu"

Instead, they say "Damn, I knew Natsu was that strong. Color me impressed..."

In fact, they even say that it is what makes the character Natsu so strong.



3.) Same with Laxus. Back in the "Battle of Fairy Tail Arc", Laxus was beyond pissed and angry when he fought Natsu and Gajeel.

His eyes were completely white and he had veins and stuff all over his face.

But nobody ever said "Hey wait... that's Charged Up Laxus.. not Laxus"

Instead, they treated that as "the Laxus that we know of".. and ever since then, Laxus has always been considered as one of the most powerful mages with those feats backing him up.

Why are we treating Laxus as 1 individual?

He was clearly pissed and not himself, am I wrong?




That's the problem when you start making terms up... you start creating inconsistencies in your arguments...

Like Gray, both Natsu and Laxus have become stronger when they are angry.



Only difference is that we attribute that power to Natsu and Laxus... not as Enraged Natsu and Charged Up Laxus

So to be fair, there is no such thing as Darkness Gray. That is partly the extent of Gray's power. So that is simply Gray.



Mashima never drew Gray differently when he beat up Invel.

There were no new marks on his body and no different hairstyles.

So whether you guys like it or not, it's absurd to say "Gray" and "Darkness Gray".

And from now on, I'm not going to follow the rest of the community here.



Whenever there is a thread about Gray's power:

When I say "Gray"... I'm talking about the Gray who crushed Invel.

 

[Seven777]

Alright, so this post will be more of an analysis instead of normal power ranking:

First off, lately in Fairy Tail, I've noticed that the community has started to make up words when describing Gray's power...

To be honest, I really don't know where this term came from, but I would like to address it here to clear stuff up.


I noticed that people have started to distinguish regular old "Gray" from "Darkness Gray" in terms of power. Let me ask you an honest question:

Is there any evidence of this?

As far as I'm concerned, "Gray" and the made up term "Darkness Gray" should be treated as a single persona.

I don't get why people act as if the two are different when they are clearly the same person.


Simply put, whenever we are powerranking/powerscaling Gray, we should look at him as if he is Darkness Gray.

They both possess the same power, the only difference is that we are calling that whole thing "Gray". In fact, that is Gray.


So idk why there are people saying stuff like "Is this Darkness Gray we are talking about?" or "Well, in this case, since this is Darkness Gray..."


Here are a few reasons on why I decided to make this post:


1.) Let's start out with the basics... Has Mashima ever distinguished the difference between "Gray" and "Darkness Gray"??

If Mashima has never attached an epithet or a prefix of "Darkness" in front of Gray's name, then why are we treating them as 2 completely different individuals?

Darkness Gray is not a power-up. It is Gray when he is fighting seriously and putting immense effort into his battles.

You can say that is Gray showing his true power.

But power-up? Give me a break..



2.) Since when have we ever referred to an angry Natsu as "Enraged Natsu"?

Plenty of times throughout the manga, Natsu has been pissed at the end of his battles with veins popping out from his face. Then he starts to get "fired up" and proceeds to crush his opponents.

However, I don't see people distinguish the difference between Enraged Natsu and Natsu. They call the whole thing Natsu and use that to powerrank/powerscale him.

People never say "Wait... are we talking about Enraged Natsu or just plain ol' Natsu"

Instead, they say "Damn, I knew Natsu was that strong. Color me impressed..."

In fact, they even say that it is what makes the character Natsu so strong.



3.) Same with Laxus. Back in the "Battle of Fairy Tail Arc", nobody ever said "Hey wait... that's Charged Up Laxus.. not Laxus"

Instead, they treated that as "the Laxus that we know of".. and ever since then, Laxus has always been considered as one of the most powerful mages with those feats backing him up.

Why are we treating Laxus as 1 individual?

He was clearly pissed and not himself, am I wrong?




That's the problem when you start making terms up... you start creating inconsistencies in your arguments...

Like Gray, both Natsu and Laxus have become stronger when they are angry.



Only difference is that we attribute that power to Natsu and Laxus... not as Enraged Natsu and Charged Up Laxus

So to be fair, there is no such thing as Darkness Gray. That is partly the extent of Gray's power. So that is simply Gray.



Mashima never drew Gray differently when he beat up Invel.

There were no new marks on his body and no different hairstyles.

So whether you guys like it or not, it's absurd to say "Gray" and "Darkness Gray".

And from now on, I'm not going to follow the rest of the community here.



Whenever there is a thread about Gray's power:

When I say "Gray"... I'm talking about the Gray who crushed Invel.

It's because Invel pretty much outright stated that "Darkness Gray" is a thing entirely different to normal Gray.

Invel stated that "Darkness" is a power in itself, a great power thats locked away in everyones hearts, he then stated that Gray was on the brink of unlocking this great power, and through his monologue we know that Invel intended to use Juvia to force this unlocking.
Invel even went so far as to claim that a Gray with his "Darkness" awakened would be the birth of the Ultimate Warrior to battle END, implying Gray as he was before wasnt anywhere near that level.
So yeah, looking at Gray's unusual jump in performance and his insane actions towards Natsu, its understandable that pretty much everyone attributes the change to the established power and insanity that is the "Darkness" within Gray, the only thing non canon is the fan made name "Darkness Gray" everything else has been pretty well explained in the manga, though it was pretty rushed

 

[Hermit]

But nobody ever said "Hey wait... that's Charged Up Laxus.. not Laxus"

I'm pretty sure it should be "Hey wait...that's @~Charging Lightning~...not Laxus"
But other than that, yeah I agree with you on this bit, this whole 'Darkness Gray' nonsense is just some term fans made in order to downplay Gray and make him sound undeserving of feats he accomplished with his own power.
Also, with Juvia having returned, I'm just waiting for round 2 of Gray vs E.N.D and we'll see Gray keeping up with E.N.D again, I'm waiting to see the excuses that will be thrown around then for Gray doing things with his own power.

 

[Nemispelled]

It's because Invel pretty much outright stated that "Darkness Gray" is a thing entirely different to normal Gray.

Invel stated that "Darkness" is a power in itself, a great power thats locked away in everyones hearts, he then stated that Gray was on the brink of unlocking this great power, and through his monologue we know that Invel intended to use Juvia to force this unlocking.
Invel even went so far as to claim that a Gray with his "Darkness" awakened would be the birth of the Ultimate Warrior to battle END, implying Gray as he was before wasnt anywhere near that level.
So yeah, looking at Gray's unusual jump in performance and his insane actions towards Natsu, its understandable that pretty much everyone attributes the change to the established power and insanity that is the "Darkness" within Gray, the only thing non canon is the fan made name "Darkness Gray" everything else has been pretty well explained in the manga, though it was pretty rushed

If Darkness is this great power, then how come the bad guys like Tartaros were killed at the hands of FT?

Invel's words are not actual facts... he said that Ice Lock would have full control Gray's and Juvia's minds... but it clearly didn't. He made "gross" miscalculations, he can hardly be considered credible.

And we never had proof that Gray released this "Darkness" that Invel was talking about.

What defines "Darkness"? Fighting an enemy in order to protect your friends?

If that's the case, then all of FT should have released their Darkness long ago.

All Gray did was beat up an enemy like Invel... that can hardly be considered fueled by Darkness.

Last time I checked, it wasn't Darkness when you are fighting evil / the bad guys.


And by the way, Gray didn't even figure out Natsu = END when he was fighting Invel.

So how was Darkness even a factor in this? His insane actions towards Natsu hadn't even begun yet.

This is when Gray found out about Natsu and END:

Spoiler

And by that time, Gray had already long defeated Invel.

So which Gray was that in your opinion:

"Gray" or "Darkness Gray"?

 

[Brandish μ]

@Nemispelled

When people say 'Darkness Gray' they're referring to the power-up he received in battle.

If I am talking about Gray now, he's the same as the person who fought END.

But I don't deny that Gray received a power up.
1) Gray's performance went up dramatically after
2) Invel hyped Gray's potential to use 'darkness'.

For me, it's as simple as Gray receiving a power up. It's my opinion that it's an emotional power up.

And we cannot pretend that darkness is just plucked out of nowhere from fans (especially if Invel himself talked about it 2 chapters before Gray used it). Darkness has been mentioned throughout the manga, I'll show some where it applies for Gray specifically... (I'll leave out Invel's stuff)

---

1) Avatar arc

Spoiler

This is probably the first hint that Gray has the potential for darkness (really it's the only hint). Gray isn't aware of it, nor does her realise the complications of his own DeS magic... and by extention the insanity that comes with hunting devils (look at his face when talks about END). It might be an act as a spy... or not. No real reason to act for that.

Natsu also hints that there are drawbacks to DeS the same chapter...

Spoiler

If you combine that with Invel's words it makes a lot of sense in regards to Gray's power up via darkness.

---

2) GMG arc.

Now this is speculative, but I'm using it as a basis for darkness as a power-up (it is from the manga so it's not plucked out of nowhere). Rogue being the person to receive a power up similar to Gray's (I'll acknowledge it's not the same).

Firstly, Gajeel beat Rogue up easily at first.

Spoiler: Gajeel standing over Rogue

Then Shadow lends power to Rogue

Spoiler: Shadow

Then proceeds to stomp Gajeel

Spoiler

Gajeel is able to beat Shadow Rogue by eating some of the shadows... it's enough MP to perform something like this..

Spoiler

It's a foul magic that Mavis isn't familiar with, but is powerful.

Spoiler

Then we have comments from Shadow about what he is... darkness that lingers in the recess of his heart namely.

Spoiler

So with Shadow and Rogue we get...

• Rogue getting a clear boost from Shadow
• Mavis calling it a possession and foul magic
• Shadow itself stating it's darkness
• Difference with Gray is that Shadow seems to be a entity of it's own, and not just darkness/emotions

But there is also this from Avatar arc too, which might hint that Shadow has left Rogue, and possibly for Gray...

Spoiler: Shadow leaves

---

Tbh, there's more evidence from Invel's fight. Not only does his words hype it, Gray essentially displays a power up. Even if you don't want to take in Invel's words, there is still that marked improvement. If you want to say that it's POF, okay. But 'he went serious' or 'angry' just doesn't cut it imo. If Gray wasn't serious after seeing his friends get frozen, and also experiencing that level of cold, then he was combat stupid in those initial moments (OOC/unlike Gray).

But I think if you add all these bits together, there is more going for 'darkness' than there is opposing it. And do note I am not saying this with certainty, but I am rolling with what's 'most likely'.

 

[Seven777]

If Darkness is this great power, then how come the bad guys like Tartaros were killed at the hands of FT?

Invel's words are not actual facts... he said that Ice Lock would have full control Gray's and Juvia's minds... but it clearly didn't. He made "gross" miscalculations, he can hardly be considered credible.

And we never had proof that Gray released this "Darkness" that Invel was talking about.

What defines "Darkness"? Fighting an enemy in order to protect your friends?

If that's the case, then all of FT should have released their Darkness long ago.

All Gray did was beat up an enemy like Invel... that can hardly be considered fueled by Darkness.

Last time I checked, it wasn't Darkness when you are fighting evil / the bad guys.


And by the way, Gray didn't even figure out Natsu = END when he was fighting Invel.

So how was Darkness even a factor in this? His insane actions towards Natsu hadn't even begun yet.

This is when Gray found out about Natsu and END:

Spoiler

And by that time, Gray had already long defeated Invel.

So which Gray was that in your opinion:

"Gray" or "Darkness Gray"?

Darkness was stated to be tied to Zeref, so the bad guys would need to be using Zeref related magic to use it, besides, people like the members of Tartaros probably started with this "Darkness" unlocked, they were fairly powerful, and they dont seem like the type to train to gain their power. I imagine the "Darkness" boost is sorta like what Jellal got when he was a kid, it changed him from a helpless chained up slave boy, to a powerful murdering monster child.

Mashima wouldnt have felt the need to have Invel go on and on about "Darkness" if there wasnt some truth to his words, as far as im concerned that makes them canon, and the events of the following chapters only back this up

We never had proof Gray unlocked it true, but it is heavily implied that he did, no point even mentioning it if someone isnt getting this "Darkness".

What do you mean what defines "Darkness"? If you want it in Invel's words, Darkness is defined as neither good nor evil, but a great power that lies in the hearts of all humans, it is also related to Zeref's Black Magic, does that answer your question?

Why does it matter when Gray found out END is Natsu? I'm not saying that END caused Gray to go "Dark", i'm saying that Gray's action towards END are clear indication that "Darkness" was taking Gray over, the "transformation" into "Darkness Gray" began when Juvia "killed" herself, and only got worse when Gray found out about END.

 

[Nemispelled]

@Nemispelled

When people say 'Darkness Gray' they're referring to the power-up he received in battle.

If I am talking about Gray now, he's the same as the person who fought END.

But I don't deny that Gray received a power up.
1) Gray's performance went up dramatically after
2) Invel hyped Gray's potential to use 'darkness'.

For me, it's as simple as Gray receiving a power up. It's my opinion that it's an emotional power up.

And we cannot pretend that darkness is just plucked out of nowhere from fans (especially if Invel himself talked about it 2 chapters before Gray used it). Darkness has been mentioned throughout the manga, I'll show some where it applies for Gray specifically... (I'll leave out Invel's stuff)

---

1) Avatar arc

Spoiler

This is probably the first hint that Gray has the potential for darkness (really it's the only hint). Gray isn't aware of it, nor does her realise the complications of his own DeS magic... and by extention the insanity that comes with hunting devils (look at his face when talks about END). It might be an act as a spy... or not. No real reason to act for that.

Natsu also hints that there are drawbacks to DeS the same chapter...

Spoiler

If you combine that with Invel's words it makes a lot of sense in regards to Gray's power up via darkness.

---

2) GMG arc.

Now this is speculative, but I'm using it as a basis for darkness as a power-up (it is from the manga so it's not plucked out of nowhere). Rogue being the person to receive a power up similar to Gray's (I'll acknowledge it's not the same).

Firstly, Gajeel beat Rogue up easily at first.

Spoiler: Gajeel standing over Rogue

Then Shadow lends power to Rogue

Spoiler: Shadow

Then proceeds to stomp Gajeel

Spoiler

Gajeel is able to beat Shadow Rogue by eating some of the shadows... it's enough MP to perform something like this..

Spoiler

It's a foul magic that Mavis isn't familiar with, but is powerful.

Spoiler

Then we have comments from Shadow about what he is... darkness that lingers in the recess of his heart namely.

Spoiler

So with Shadow and Rogue we get...

• Rogue getting a clear boost from Shadow
• Mavis calling it a possession and foul magic
• Shadow itself stating it's darkness
• Difference with Gray is that Shadow seems to be a entity of it's own, and not just darkness/emotions

But there is also this from Avatar arc too, which might hint that Shadow has left Rogue, and possibly for Gray...

Spoiler: Shadow leaves

---

Tbh, there's more evidence from Invel's fight. Not only does his words hype it, Gray essentially displays a power up. Even if you don't want to take in Invel's words, there is still that marked improvement. If you want to say that it's POF, okay. But 'he went serious' or 'angry' just doesn't cut it imo. If Gray wasn't serious after seeing his friends get frozen, and also experiencing that level of cold, then he was combat stupid in those initial moments (OOC/unlike Gray).

But I think if you add all these bits together, there is more going for 'darkness' than there is opposing it. And do note I am not saying this with certainty, but I am rolling with what's 'most likely'.

That's the problem. People say there was a dramatic increase in performance...

But was there really? No.

The battle had hardly started and Gray was just getting warmed up when he caused Invel to bleed via Ice Devil Zeroth Long Sword.

They were like 3 minutes in when Brandish interrupted and distracted Gray and Juvia. Then Invel proceeded to cast Ice Lock and kill off Juvia.


Gray wasn't breathing or sweating during the fight, and didn't pull out any new spells yet. So how was there major improvement?

Natsu and Laxus always have battles that start out slow too. Their attacks don't affect their enemies at the start, but after a chapter or two, they get really pissed and crush their enemies.

Does this mean they also get a power-up? No.


And to be honest, no fights in FT start with the character going their strongest. The battles work their way up to the climax, but unfortunately, that was interrupted in Gray vs. Invel.

There is absolutely no evidence in my opinion that Gray's performance increased drastically.


He just wasn't showing his true power at the beginning, which is what every FT character including Natsu and Laxus does.

Gray's power shouldn't be judged off of that... that'd be absurd.



Now that Erza has returned Gray to his normal state, that means his "darkness" is now gone, right?

So I guess we should all be expecting Gray to be, all of a sudden weaker than when he fought partial END because he lost his darkness?

I highly doubt that. That'd be absurd.


Natsu and Erza have had plenty of emotional power-ups, yet we never distinguished it differently from their normal states. So why are we starting with Gray?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Nov 5, 2016 ---

Darkness was stated to be tied to Zeref, so the bad guys would need to be using Zeref related magic to use it, besides, people like the members of Tartaros probably started with this "Darkness" unlocked, they were fairly powerful, and they dont seem like the type to train to gain their power. I imagine the "Darkness" boost is sorta like what Jellal got when he was a kid, it changed him from a helpless chained up slave boy, to a powerful murdering monster child.

Mashima wouldnt have felt the need to have Invel go on and on about "Darkness" if there wasnt some truth to his words, as far as im concerned that makes them canon, and the events of the following chapters only back this up

We never had proof Gray unlocked it true, but it is heavily implied that he did, no point even mentioning it if someone isnt getting this "Darkness".

What do you mean what defines "Darkness"? If you want it in Invel's words, Darkness is defined as neither good nor evil, but a great power that lies in the hearts of all humans, it is also related to Zeref's Black Magic, does that answer your question?

Why does it matter when Gray found out END is Natsu? I'm not saying that END caused Gray to go "Dark", i'm saying that Gray's action towards END are clear indication that "Darkness" was taking Gray over, the "transformation" into "Darkness Gray" began when Juvia "killed" herself, and only got worse when Gray found out about END.

That's not my question. My question is:

How was Gray considered "Dark" when he fought Invel?

We have absolutely no evidence of that, except that Gray was beating Invel up. And that's supposed to be considered "Darkness" unlocked?

As far as I'm concerned, Darkness Gray has no facts backing it up.


It matters when Gray found out that END is Natsu because you said it was the darkness that caused Gray to go insane towards Natsu.

But by your definition, Darkness is a great power, not feelings right?



So how did we go from Darkness being a "great power" to...

Having "ill-feelings towards a friend"?


The whole END thing happened after Gray defeated Invel.

So, again, how does that affect the way Gray beat up Invel?

How was Gray considered Dark when he fought Invel? Nothing about him shows that he was plagued by Darkness at that time.

He was the Gray of Fairy Tail that we know of... and he was kicking a Spriggan's ass, like everybody else.

Nothing was unlocked in the Gray vs. Invel battle. Invel's words alone are not facts because he admitted he was mistakened at the end of the fight.

Therefore, there is no connection between Darkness Gray, Invel, and Natsu = END.

 

[Brandish μ]

That's the problem. People say there was a dramatic increase in performance...

But was there really? No.

The battle had hardly started and Gray was just getting warmed up when he caused Invel to bleed via Ice Devil Zeroth Long Sword.

They were like 3 minutes in when Brandish interrupted and distracted Gray and Juvia. Then Invel proceeded to cast Ice Lock and kill off Juvia.


Gray wasn't breathing or sweating during the fight, and didn't pull out any new spells yet. So how was there major improvement?

Natsu and Laxus always have battles that start out slow too. Their attacks don't affect their enemies at the start, but after a chapter or two, they get really pissed and crush their enemies.

Does this mean they also get a power-up? No.


And to be honest, no fights in FT start with the character going their strongest. The battles work their way up to the climax, but unfortunately, that was interrupted in Gray vs. Invel.

There is absolutely no evidence in my opinion that Gray's performance increased drastically.


He just wasn't showing his true power at the beginning, which is what every FT character including Natsu and Laxus does.

Gray's power shouldn't be judged off of that... that'd be absurd.



Now that Erza has returned Gray to his normal state, that means his "darkness" is now gone, right?

So I guess we should all be expecting Gray to be, all of a sudden weaker than when he fought partial END because he lost his darkness?

I highly doubt that. That'd be absurd.


Natsu and Erza have had plenty of emotional power-ups, yet we never distinguished it differently from their normal states. So why are we starting with Gray?

Gray didn't make much headway while demonised, and then went to bashing Invel in base. That has to qualify as a dramatic improvement. Unless you think base and demonised Gray aren't even different in power... not to mention the difference in result.

If Natsu couldn't beat someone in FDKM (at best was equal), but then dropped into Base and beat that person up... I have no doubt the POF/BS/Asspull claims would be going through the roof. Gray has the power up - darkness... it's an emotional power up, and a legit one.

 

[Nemispelled]

Gray didn't make much headway while demonised, and then went to bashing Invel in base. That has to qualify as a dramatic improvement. Unless you think base and demonised Gray aren't even different in power... not to mention the difference in result.

If Natsu couldn't beat someone in FDKM (at best was equal), but then dropped into Base and beat that person up... I have no doubt the POF/BS/Asspull claims would be going through the roof. Gray has the power up - darkness... it's an emotional power up, and a legit one.

Although it's true that Gray went from DeS form to base form, there was also a large difference in effort that Gray put in.

In DeS mode, he maintained a clam expression and casually used old DeS spells (in other words, he was holding back).

In base mode, he was extremely angry and used a new DeS spell, Ice Devil Zeroth Destruction Fist.

The facial expression that Gray showed in base mode and the effort he put in was completely different than the attitude he had in DeS.

That's why there was a large difference in performance, not because of some featless "darkness power-up".


And I don't understand why that is so far-fetched...

When Dimaria was about to stab Lucy's eyes out, Natsu, in base mode, oneshotted Dimaria because he was taken over by anger.

And Gray didn't even oneshot Invel... It took like 6+ hits to just knock Invel to the ground.

So if anything, Natsu is a better example of emotional power-up.

I don't see why Gray has to have "Darkness" attached to his name, when Natsu doesn't.

As far as I'm concerned, Gray was barely warming up in his fight against Invel before it was interrupted. He just put in more effort in the end and showed what his training over the 1-year timeskip could actually do.

There was no drastic increase of performance due to "Darkness" in my opinion.

Several other characters like Laxus and Natsu have had similar cases, yet they are only classified by their original character.

 

[Brandish μ]

Although it's true that Gray went from DeS form to base form, there was also a large difference in effort that Gray put in.

Are you implying Gray was casual when he first took on Invel? Casual... after seeing his friends frozen... sounds silly.

I don't think I've seen anyone go into their best mode and be like 'hey I won't expend much effort'.

Gray should have stayed in base if he wasn't going to try. And I know you didn't say that, but a large difference implies it.

In DeS mode, he maintained a clam expression and casually used old DeS spells (in other words, he was holding back).

His face was serious to me. He wasn't walking through Magnolia. Casually... okay (no). And no, doesn't matter if it's an old spell. What matters is Gray puts power into it. Destruction Fist is probably more powerful, but it's not necessarily a lot more powerful.

In base mode, he was extremely angry and used a new DeS spell, Ice Devil Zeroth Destruction Fist.

He was definitely more angry. And the new DeS spell wasn't totally his own power.

That's why there was a large difference in performance, not because of some featless "darkness power-up".

We we're going to disagree, but I think you're ignoring the differences in performance; relying on facial expressions and an opinion of being casual (fine to think that). I think you have to at least acknowledge that Gray isn't that stupid not to try if his friends are captured, and demonising is at least a noticeable step up in his power - but that didn't stop Base Gray from doing better because he's angry/darkness powered.

Tbh if it's not darkness, it's just straight PoF (legit power as well).

 

[Nemispelled]

Are you implying Gray was casual when he first took on Invel? Casual... after seeing his friends frozen... sounds silly.

I don't think I've seen anyone go into their best mode and be like 'hey I won't expend much effort'.

Gray should have stayed in base if he wasn't going to try. And I know you didn't say that, but a large difference implies it.

None of Team Natsu were in danger at that moment, they were just all frozen solid.

I'm not making it up. Gray showed a lot more effort after Juvia died than when Team Natsu was frozen.

The way Gray's face was drawn and the expressions he showed after Juvia died is completely different than the attitude he showed when he was in DeS mode.

I don't think anybody can say otherwise. By the context, Gray was casual when Team Natsu was frozen. When Juvia died, you saw his true feelings of desperation.


You say that you don't think anybody would go their best mode and "not expend much effort".

But how about Natsu vs. Jacob? Natsu used FDK spell to defeat Jacob. Do you truly believe that he expended a lot of effort there?

Natsu oneshotted Dimaria with an unnamed attack in base mode, he showed a lot more effort there than when he took Jacob out.

Using a certain form or spell (such as FDK spells) doesn't tell you the amount of effort a character puts in.


So if Dimaria > Jacob, then why did Natsu use a weaker spell to take her out compared to Jacob?

It's simple, the situation with Dimaria made him a lot more angrier and desperate.

Yet, nobody has ever distinguished the difference between Natsu and Enraged Natsu.

His face was serious to me. He wasn't walking through Magnolia. Casually... okay (no). And no, doesn't matter if it's an old spell. What matters is Gray puts power into it. Destruction Fist is probably more powerful, but it's not necessarily a lot more powerful.



He was definitely more angry. And the new DeS spell wasn't totally his own power.

By default, newer spells are generally more powerful than older spells. You must be a troll character like Ichiya for that to be the opposite.

And from the looks of Gray's training over the timeskip, I have no reason not to assume that his newer DeS spells are a lot more powerful than his Tartaros spells.

Just like Natsu, Gray's newer spells drastically increase in terms of power due to the intense training over the 1 year timeskip.

So far, Natsu, Laxus, and Gray have all trained rigorously over the past 1 year, so all of their new spells are a lot stronger.

We we're going to disagree, but I think you're ignoring the differences in performance; relying on facial expressions and an opinion of being casual (fine to think that). I think you have to at least acknowledge that Gray isn't that stupid not to try if his friends are captured, and demonising is at least a noticeable step up in his power - but that didn't stop Base Gray from doing better because he's angry/darkness powered.

Tbh if it's not darkness, it's just straight PoF (legit power as well).

Again, I don't see how the situation with Team Natsu being frozen can compare to Juvia's death. The two are on completely different levels in terms of desperateness.

Their lives weren't in any danger... that was made clear when Invel put his focus on Gray the whole battle instead of trying to shatter them to pieces...

When Juvia (one of his guildmates) died, then Gray was beyond pissed. The effort he put in multiplied by something like 100.

The two situations really aren't comparable, they're totally different.


So in terms of how much effort Gray put in, I stand by my original statement:

In DeS mode, Gray fought casually using old weaker techniques.

In base mode, Gray showed results of his 1-year training and used a lot more stronger and powerful spells.

 

[Seven777]

That's not my question. My question is:

How was Gray considered "Dark" when he fought Invel?

We have absolutely no evidence of that, except that Gray was beating Invel up. And that's supposed to be considered "Darkness" unlocked?

As far as I'm concerned, Darkness Gray has no facts backing it up.


It matters when Gray found out that END is Natsu because you said it was the darkness that caused Gray to go insane towards Natsu.

But by your definition, Darkness is a great power, not feelings right?



So how did we go from Darkness being a "great power" to...

Having "ill-feelings towards a friend"?


The whole END thing happened after Gray defeated Invel.

So, again, how does that affect the way Gray beat up Invel?

How was Gray considered Dark when he fought Invel? Nothing about him shows that he was plagued by Darkness at that time.

He was the Gray of Fairy Tail that we know of... and he was kicking a Spriggan's ass, like everybody else.

Nothing was unlocked in the Gray vs. Invel battle. Invel's words alone are not facts because he admitted he was mistakened at the end of the fight.

Therefore, there is no connection between Darkness Gray, Invel, and Natsu = END.

He was considered Dark because
1)He had a unusual jump in performance against Invel, doing better with punches than Zeroth Longsword.
2)Invel said that if Gray killed Juvia, Gray's Darkness would awaken(Didnt actually kill her, but he definitely felt responsible for her death)
3)No point for Mashima to have Invel go on and on about Darkness if Gray wasnt getting it, especially since he was already on the brink of releasing it.
4) Its been hinted at since GMG arc
5)Darkness was said to bring Gray to the point where he would be the best warrior to fight END, after seeing Gray's fight with END, we can confirm that Gray had indeed become the warrior Invel planned on creating via Darkness.

You are right, insanity towards Natsu is more of a result of DeS magic than "Darkness" got them mixed up.

Just because he was mistaken at the end of the fight, doesnt mean the Darkness does not actually exist, Mashima went through the trouble to explain it, and foreshadow it, so that makes it fact.

Gray being "Darkened" against Invel was made clear by Gray's unnatural, unexplained jump in performance, people attribute this to "Darkness" because it would give meaning to Invel's earlier ranting about it and to Juvia's "death" if Gray wasnt Darkened it would make the entire dialogue with Invel and Juvia's supposed "death" a complete waste of panel time, because that would mean Gray couldve just beaten him quickly in the beginning, but was too stupid to go all out despite all his friends being frozen, and from his point of view, vulnerable.

 

[Nemispelled]

He was considered Dark because
1)He had a unusual jump in performance against Invel, doing better with punches than Zeroth Longsword.
2)Invel said that if Gray killed Juvia, Gray's Darkness would awaken(Didnt actually kill her, but he definitely felt responsible for her death)
3)No point for Mashima to have Invel go on and on about Darkness if Gray wasnt getting it, especially since he was already on the brink of releasing it.
4) Its been hinted at since GMG arc
5)Darkness was said to bring Gray to the point where he would be the best warrior to fight END, after seeing Gray's fight with END, we can confirm that Gray had indeed become the warrior Invel planned on creating via Darkness.

You are right, insanity towards Natsu is more of a result of DeS magic than "Darkness" got them mixed up.

Just because he was mistaken at the end of the fight, doesnt mean the Darkness does not actually exist, Mashima went through the trouble to explain it, and foreshadow it, so that makes it fact.

Gray being "Darkened" against Invel was made clear by Gray's unnatural, unexplained jump in performance, people attribute this to "Darkness" because it would give meaning to Invel's earlier ranting about it and to Juvia's "death" if Gray wasnt Darkened it would make the entire dialogue with Invel and Juvia's supposed "death" a complete waste of panel time, because that would mean Gray couldve just beaten him quickly in the beginning, but was too stupid to go all out despite all his friends being frozen, and from his point of view, vulnerable.

Well, then I guess we disagree. Everything you said is true, except I don't think that it's Darkness.

In my opinion, the whole Darkness thing was more of a hype tool for Gray vs. Natsu (END). It was never actually proven. And it certainly wasn't a power-up imo.

Invel was mistakened because he underestimated Gray. Invel thought he could play with Gray's mind, but that wasn't necessarily the case because Gray still fought to protect the guild.

It was nothing more than a minor plot device.

Just like how Future Rogue foretold that Gray would kill Frosch and cause Rogue to become dark in the present timeline.

But as usual, that wasn't the case in the present timeline because the characters there are stronger than the future timeline.

They "overcame" the prophecy and proved it wrong. That's the way I look at it with Invel predicting Gray having Darkness within him.

I'll concede when we have actual evidence of Darkness Gray, but until then, I stand by Gray just being "Gray".

 

[Brandish μ]

None of Team Natsu were in danger at that moment, they were just all frozen solid.

They were in danger if Invel won. Gray new he had to win, and his base power wasn't cutting it. This makes the most sense.

I'm not making it up. Gray showed a lot more effort after Juvia died than when Team Natsu was frozen.

Gray performed a lot better. The effort shouldn't have gone up... if he went to 100% after Juvia died he would have been in the 90's% before that in ch 498. Otherwise Gray was silly.

The way Gray's face was drawn and the expressions he showed after Juvia died is completely different than the attitude he showed when he was in DeS mode.

I don't think anybody can say otherwise. By the context, Gray was casual when Team Natsu was frozen. When Juvia died, you saw his true feelings of desperation.

I'm not denying that facial expressions mean nothing - they do portray the events, but the actions and magic one uses will always triumph. Tbh if you're saying that Gray needs someone to die before he 'actually gets serious' then you're basically telling me that Gray is not battle-hardened and is partly responsible for Juvia's 'death'.

You say that you don't think anybody would go their best mode and "not expend much effort".

But how about Natsu vs. Jacob? Natsu used FDK spell to defeat Jacob. Do you truly believe that he expended a lot of effort there?

He went pretty much as close to full without going into Dragon Force. Basically Natsu used a lot more effort to defeat Jacob than he did Neinhart.

If you're equating effort as 'using all the power they have' then we are just using the word differently (and I don't disagree with how you're using it). To me if someone is using their best magic they're applying a lot/best effort.

Natsu oneshotted Dimaria with an unnamed attack in base mode, he showed a lot more effort there than when he took Jacob out.

Care to tell me exactly what Natsu did to DiMaria? Namely how he beat her.

Yet, nobody has ever distinguished the difference between Natsu and Enraged Natsu.

No, because darkness =/= angry/enraged to some people. They're talking about darkness, and what that means in the manga. Not angry.

By default, newer spells are generally more powerful than older spells. You must be a troll character like Ichiya for that to be the opposite.

And from the looks of Gray's training over the timeskip, I have no reason not to assume that his newer DeS spells are a lot more powerful than his Tartaros spells.

Just like Natsu, Gray's newer spells drastically increase in terms of power due to the intense training over the 1 year timeskip.

So far, Natsu, Laxus, and Gray have all trained rigorously over the past 1 year, so all of their new spells are a lot stronger.

I agree with that thinking that newer spells are stronger in a general sense. And hey don't knock Ichiya.

Gray is overall much stronger than Tartarus. There is literally no way a Tartarus spell from Gray's should be stronger... unless he's barely trying at all.

Yea they all got stronger. Natsu trained the most rigorously, Laxus apparently trained a lot, Gray trained for 6 months. Tbh the improvements matched their training 'hype' with these 3 characters... Natsu > Laxus > Gray for improvement.

So in terms of how much effort Gray put in, I stand by my original statement:

In DeS mode, Gray fought casually using old weaker techniques.

In base mode, Gray showed results of his 1-year training and used a lot more stronger and powerful spells.

Base > Demonised by the looks

 

[Nemispelled]

They were in danger if Invel won. Gray new he had to win, and his base power wasn't cutting it. This makes the most sense.

Yeah, danger if Invel won. Gray was nowhere near worried that Invel would win because he knows that he was holding back. That makes the most sense.

Gray was just getting warmed up, so he still had plenty of new moves and the "trump card" to try out.

So why would he be anywhere near worried there?

Gray performed a lot better. The effort shouldn't have gone up... if he went to 100% after Juvia died he would have been in the 90's% before that in ch 498. Otherwise Gray was silly.

I don't really get this statement to be honest...

I'm not denying that facial expressions mean nothing - they do portray the events, but the actions and magic one uses will always triumph. Tbh if you're saying that Gray needs someone to die before he 'actually gets serious' then you're basically telling me that Gray is not battle-hardened and is partly responsible for Juvia's 'death'.

Again, the reason why Gray did not get serious because he didn't need to be.

You keep on assuming that Gray was trying, but you can't assume that.

By context, Mashima showed Gray was just getting warmed up. Therefore, he had no reason to be worried that Invel "might" win.

Gray is a lot stronger than you think... he can fight on par with Partial END... no way he is going to lose to Invel, even if he has to push over 50% of his full power.


And btw, it wasn't Gray who was responsible for Juvia's death.

It was all f***ing Brandish's fault!! (Not you @Brandish, dw, )


Nah but really... how can you blame Gray when:

1.) Brandish distracted Gray by grabbing Lucy, Happy and Natsu.

2.) Brandish didn't take Juvia along as well


Like c'mon, the blame was clearly on Brandish there... no excuses...




You blame Gray for not being "serious" when his friends were frozen, but let's see if you would blame Natsu:

During the fight with Jacob, Jacob held all FT members "hostage" via Transport, and he could've killed all of them instantly at any moment.

Instead of going full power FDKM, Natsu was fighting in base mode casually and then got taken down.

Spoiler

Please, you can't tell me that was being serious.

If anything, we should be talking about why Natsu didn't go full powered FDKM against Jacob from the beginning instead of talking about Gray who was actually fighting Invel.

He went pretty much as close to full without going into Dragon Force. Basically Natsu used a lot more effort to defeat Jacob than he did Neinhart.

Dude, don't tell me you actually believe in that...

If Natsu was going close to full power with his FDK spell against Jacob without going into Dragon Force, then I would officially say:

Gildartz = Laxus = Gray = DF Gajeel = Erza >>>>>>> Natsu


You and I both know that Natsu wasn't going anywhere near full power against Jacob. I'm not a Natsu fan and even I know that.

Care to tell me exactly what Natsu did to DiMaria? Namely how he beat her.

Oneshot her with an unnamed attack in base mode?

That's as factual and close to the truth as I can get.

And why did he use base spells against Dimaria, but FDK spells against Jacob?

Oh wait, because he was angry and desperate to save Lucy... <--- Same case with Gray

No, because darkness =/= angry/enraged to some people. They're talking about darkness, and what that means in the manga. Not angry.

I'm not equating angry to darkness. I'm saying that Natsu also has an emotional power up via Enraged Mode.

For Gray, it's Darkness, but for Natsu, it's Rage.

I agree with that thinking that newer spells are stronger in a general sense. And hey don't knock Ichiya.

Gray is overall much stronger than Tartarus. There is literally no way a Tartarus spell from Gray's should be stronger... unless he's barely trying at all.

Yea they all got stronger. Natsu trained the most rigorously, Laxus apparently trained a lot, Gray trained for 6 months. Tbh the improvements matched their training 'hype' with these 3 characters... Natsu > Laxus > Gray for improvement.

I agree with everything here except Laxus training more than Gray...

Gray had a motivation over the 1-year to train, just like Natsu...

Gray wanted to fulfill his father's dying wish and defeat END... he has to train more than Laxus.

And even if I'm being nice and assuming that he didn't, the most we can say is that Laxus and Gray trained equally.

There is no way I'm going to believe Laxus trained more when he joined Blue Pegasus while Gray was training to take down END.