And I said that statements doesn't equal to facts. I can claim Something but if I cant show proof then my statements is debunked. 7 years Pre time skip LFD NATSU>TOH and Nirvana DF natsu. Fdkm>Tartarus DF so basically fdkm>Current Base natsu>=Tartarus DF>HF natsu>Tenrou LFD>Lfd second origin>nirava DF>=TOH DF
First of all Base Natsu at the beginning of the series and Base Natsu now are not the same.Current Base Natsu is much stronger.Similarly Tartaros DF>TOH DF.But Tartaros DF>Tartaros LFD Natsu.This whole thing has been happening because Natsu is growing stronger.But that doesn't make the form itself weaker
And DF has been stated the best form of a DS at nearly the start of the series
Pretty sure feats suggest Tenrou LFD>any DF up to that point. He mauled Hades in a one sided beat down throughout it's duration..meanwhile a weaker foe in Zero actually held his own against DF Natsu. As for his natural DF..what feats does it even have other than failing miserably against Mard? DF still being hyped after GMG? Base slayer> DF slayers? lol K.
Pretty sure feats suggest Tenrou LFD>any DF up to that point. He mauled Hades in a one sided beat down throughout it's duration..meanwhile a weaker foe in Zero actually held his own against DF Natsu. As for his natural DF..what feats does it even have other than failing miserably against Mard? DF still being hyped after GMG? Base slayer> DF slayers? lol K.
Actually, a better comparison would be LFD Natsu against Tempesta and DF Natsu against Mard Geer. In my opinion, it is pretty obvious that Dragon Force is Natsu's strongest form.
Your comparison is a little less reliable because Natsu was using an external source of power in both scenarios. For Zero, he consumed Jellal's MP. And against Hades, he was being fueled by Laxus' MP. So here are a few things that you would have to consider:
How much magic power did Jellal and Laxus give to Natsu (individually)?
Who is stronger? Jellal or Laxus?
Not to mention, how much stronger is Hades (without heart) compared to Zero? I think the winner is somewhat debatable.
Actually, a better comparison would be LFD Natsu against Tempesta and DF Natsu against Mard Geer. In my opinion, it is pretty obvious that Dragon Force is Natsu's strongest form.
Your comparison is a little less reliable because Natsu was using an external source of power in both scenarios. For Zero, he consumed Jellal's MP. And against Hades, he was being fueled by Laxus' MP. So here are a few things that you would have to consider:
How much magic power did Jellal and Laxus give to Natsu (individually)?
Who is stronger? Jellal or Laxus?
Not to mention, how much stronger is Hades (without heart) compared to Zero? I think the winner is somewhat debatable.
Well, up until the Alvarez Arc, Dragon Force has been Natsu's strongest form.
Now I do agree with you that we can't just assume DF Natsu > FDKM Natsu. So right now, it is inconclusive as to which mode is stronger. However, I do believe DF Natsu will be stronger but note that this is only my prediction.
As for FDKM being Natsu's strongest form, I am actually part of the minority here. I believe E.N.D is Natsu's strongest form as of Chapter 525.
Im playing devils advocate. Tenuou LFD Doesn't equal pre ts Lfd as natsu state that its weaker than it was vs hades. 2. Who stronger hades or mard geer? IMO hades is cause of his heart.
Tenuou LFD Doesn't equal pre ts Lfd as natsu state that its weaker than it was vs hades. 2. Who stronger hades or mard geer? IMO hades is cause of his heart.
Tenrou LFD is stronger than normal LFD due to Laxus' MP. The roar he used on Hades is stronger than the secret art used against Mard Geer imo.
Mard and Hades are probably on the same level so it's pretty close (they would both beat pre-skip Gildarts). Hades has better attack power, Mard has better durability and movement. The heart gives Hades incredible endurance so it's very handy.
Well, FDKM Natsu's best feat was taking down Jacob. Meanwhile, E.N.D completely destroyed Dimaria. Now this is debatable, but I consider Dimaria to be more durable than Jacob. Also, the clash between E.N.D and DeS Gray produced a shockwave which is rarely seen. If I remember correctly, the only other time this happened was when Gildarts and Bluenote fought each other and we know for a fact that they were one of the strongest mages back then.
Portrayal
We saw how apprehensive Dimaria was after seeing E.N.D. On the other hand, Jacob never had that kind of reaction when he saw FDKM Natsu. Not to mention, Invel depicted E.N.D as a very formidable opponent.
Hype
E.N.D was stated to be Zeref's strongest demon. Even if it was only a partial transformation, I still think he is above FDKM Natsu. After all, I put FDKM Natsu around the level of a High-Tier Spriggan at best.
Imo END has better durability and endurance than FDK Natsu, and a far greater reserve of energy. However FDK Natsu has the superior offense due to Igneel's special techniques being far more deadly than random nameless fire attacks END was shown to use.
Oh and Hades>>Zero. Zero isnt even on Makarov's level.
Initially, I thought the same. But after taking a closer look at it, I don't think the gap between them is that big. If we're talking about Hades with heart, then yeah, I would agree. But I'm talking about Hades without his heart which makes a big difference. Here is my reasoning:
First of all, Hades was taken down by LFD Natsu.
Note that this attack is just an enhanced version of Crimson Lotus: Exploding Flame Blade which failed to penetrate Genesis Zero.
On the other hand, the attack that DF Natsu used not only penetrated Genesis Zero but defeated Zero himself.
Now, I think we can agree that DF Natsu > LFD Natsu. And timeskip isn't really a factor here because they happened in the same year and the only arc between them was the Edolas Arc. So I don't see any reason to believe that Natsu significantly got stronger in that short period of time.
With that said, the only factors we have to consider are the external sources of power that Natsu received in both scenarios. It's true that LFD Natsu was powered by Laxus in the Tenrou Arc but then DF Natsu was powered by Jellal in the Oración Seis Arc. And in my opinion, Jellal/Laxus are around the same level. As for how much magic power they gave Natsu, I believe that both of them gave up their "leftovers", so the difference should be negligible.
Also, I would like to point out that Zero being inferior to Makarov doesn't really matter because Hades is no better. He even questioned this as he was losing.
The only reason why he seemed impressive when he dominated Makarov in the beginning was because he still had his heart. Honestly, I think Hades is a little overrated. Sure he would beat Zero, but it wouldn't be an easy match.
Initially, I thought the same. But after taking a closer look at it, I don't think the gap between them is that big. If we're talking about Hades with heart, then yeah, I would agree. But I'm talking about Hades without his heart which makes a big difference. Here is my reasoning:
First of all, Hades was taken down by LFD Natsu.
Note that this attack is just an enhanced version of Crimson Lotus: Exploding Flame Blade which failed to penetrate Genesis Zero.
On the other hand, the attack that DF Natsu used not only penetrated Genesis Zero but defeated Zero himself.
Now, I think we can agree that DF Natsu > LFD Natsu. And timeskip isn't really a factor here because they happened in the same year and the only arc between them was the Edolas Arc. So I don't see any reason to believe that Natsu significantly got stronger in that short period of time.
With that said, the only factors we have to consider are the external sources of power that Natsu received in both scenarios. It's true that LFD Natsu was powered by Laxus in the Tenrou Arc but then DF Natsu was powered by Jellal in the Oración Seis Arc. And in my opinion, Jellal/Laxus are around the same level. As for how much magic power they gave Natsu, I believe that both of them gave up their "leftovers", so the difference should be negligible.
Also, I would like to point out that Zero being inferior to Makarov doesn't really matter because Hades is no better. He even questioned this as he was losing.
The only reason why he seemed impressive when he dominated Makarov in the beginning was because he still had his heart. Honestly, I think Hades is a little overrated. Sure he would beat Zero, but it wouldn't be an easy match.
Wait, are you talking about Hades as he was at the very end of his fight with team Natsu, after the Cat squad destroyed his heart? If you are, then i dont know, its hard to say how powerful that version of Hades is. Sure he was defeated, but it took a combination of attacks from Lucy, Wendy, Gray, Erza and LFD Natsu, all with their MP newly restored and enhanced by Tenrou, not to mention all the damage he received previously. its hard to place Hades power level at that time.
As for DF against Zero and LFD against Hades. I have LFD considerable stronger.
The Jellal that gave Natsu his power at that time had just got his ass handed to him by Midnight and even before that he cast that self destruct seal on himself, which was according to Erza, the reason he got his ass kicked so hard to the point where the fight was literally over in an instant.
So the Jellal who gave OS Natsu his power was significantly weaker than he was in his own arc, FAR below Midnight tier, which in turn makes him far below Erza at that time.
While Laxus on the other hand was losing to Hades, but not by much(not yet), he had only sustained a couple of hits so far. He was in far better condition than Jellal was at the time.
Plus after all Natsu experienced in the OS arc and then Edolas i do think his base form became stronger as well.
So yeah, LFD Natsu for me was well above DF at the time.
Cant say about Hades without his heart, but with it i have Hades making short work of Zero. Tbh considering that Zero's Dark Capricio was blocked by Natsu's fist and that Makarov could shrug off Jupiter, i have my doubts about Zero making it past mid diff against someone like Makarov, let alone Hades. Even Bluenote should be able to handle him without too much difficulty.
Even Hades without his heart would wipe the floor with Zero, he took a massive barrage of Tenrou enhanced Natsu's attacks and then blitzed Natsu. He then took: a sucker punch from Laxus (enhanced by Tenrou), the combined attacks of Gray, Erza, Lucy and Wendy (all being enhanced by the Tenrou Tree) with almost no damage. I really don't think Zero has a chance against Hades even without his heart, I don't even think he has the output to seriously hurt him.
Wait, are you talking about Hades as he was at the very end of his fight with team Natsu, after the Cat squad destroyed his heart? If you are, then i dont know, its hard to say how powerful that version of Hades is. Sure he was defeated, but it took a combination of attacks from Lucy, Wendy, Gray, Erza and LFD Natsu, all with their MP newly restored and enhanced by Tenrou, not to mention all the damage he received previously. its hard to place Hades power level at that time.
As for DF against Zero and LFD against Hades. I have LFD considerable stronger.
The Jellal that gave Natsu his power at that time had just got his ass handed to him by Midnight and even before that he cast that self destruct seal on himself, which was according to Erza, the reason he got his ass kicked so hard to the point where the fight was literally over in an instant.
So the Jellal who gave OS Natsu his power was significantly weaker than he was in his own arc, FAR below Midnight tier, which in turn makes him far below Erza at that time.
While Laxus on the other hand was losing to Hades, but not by much(not yet), he had only sustained a couple of hits so far. He was in far better condition than Jellal was at the time.
Plus after all Natsu experienced in the OS arc and then Edolas i do think his base form became stronger as well.
So yeah, LFD Natsu for me was well above DF at the time.
Cant say about Hades without his heart, but with it i have Hades making short work of Zero. Tbh considering that Zero's Dark Capricio was blocked by Natsu's fist and that Makarov could shrug off Jupiter, i have my doubts about Zero making it past mid diff against someone like Makarov, let alone Hades. Even Bluenote should be able to handle him without too much difficulty.
I guess we'll just have to disagree then. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense that LFD Natsu > DF Natsu. As for the combination of attacks at the end, I don't think that really matters. The others were so far below Hades at the time, that their attacks shouldn't really do that much damage. Actually, I think that Zero being able to hold his own against DF Natsu is a lot more impressive.
As for Jellal, I agree that he was very weakened at the time. But his leftover power still activated Dragon Force and we know that to achieve DF, it isn't easy. The last time Natsu went DF was after he consumed Etherion. So even if Laxus was in better condition, it's possible that the amount of power they gave Natsu was the same. Especially since Jellal couldn't fight after giving Natsu power but Laxus still had the strength to get up and punch Hades.
Anyways, you can have the last word if you wish. Like I said, I think Hades is overrated. With his heart, he is on the level of someone like Mard Geer. But without it, he is much weaker.
Even Hades without his heart would wipe the floor with Zero, he took a massive barrage of Tenrou enhanced Natsu's attacks and then blitzed Natsu. He then took: a sucker punch from Laxus (enhanced by Tenrou), the combined attacks of Gray, Erza, Lucy and Wendy (all being enhanced by the Tenrou Tree) with almost no damage. I really don't think Zero has a chance against Hades even without his heart, I don't even think he has the output to seriously hurt him.
Although I see your point, I don't think Hades can actually wipe the floor with Zero. Zero was able to fight on par with DF Natsu for quite a while. Not to mention, he blocked DF Natsu's Crimson Lotus: Exploding Flame Blade. Hades tanking hits from Laxus and Team Natsu isn't all that impressive to be honest. They were low level attacks. Zero may have weaker durability than Hades, but in a fight, he would block Hades' attacks rather than tanking them. So I still stick to my position that Hades would have a tough time with Zero.
I guess we'll just have to disagree then. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense that LFD Natsu > DF Natsu. As for the combination of attacks at the end, I don't think that really matters. The others were so far below Hades at the time, that their attacks shouldn't really do that much damage. Actually, I think that Zero being able to hold his own against DF Natsu is a lot more impressive.
Those guys may have been far below Hades, but they werent far below Zero. In fact Erza alone should be able to give Zero a decent fight, at least according to Jellal anyway. No way Zero withstands even half of those combined attacks.
As for Jellal, I agree that he was very weakened at the time. But his leftover power still activated Dragon Force and we know that to achieve DF, it isn't easy. The last time Natsu went DF was after he consumed Etherion. So even if Laxus was in better condition, it's possible that the amount of power they gave Natsu was the same. Especially since Jellal couldn't fight after giving Natsu power but Laxus still had the strength to get up and punch Hades.
Natsu just ate a rock of Etherion, and Wendy just sucked it in from the air, i doubt the required power to activate Dragon Force is that high.
Jellal wasnt just weakened, he was weakened to the point where he was leagues below Midnight, to the point where he got oneshotted. He was basically fodder at that point, nowhere near Laxus' or even Erza's level. Imo the mp he gave Natsu couldnt be anywhere close to the amount Laxus gave Natsu.
I guess we'll just have to disagree then. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense that LFD Natsu > DF Natsu. As for the combination of attacks at the end, I don't think that really matters. The others were so far below Hades at the time, that their attacks shouldn't really do that much damage. Actually, I think that Zero being able to hold his own against DF Natsu is a lot more impressive.
As for Jellal, I agree that he was very weakened at the time. But his leftover power still activated Dragon Force and we know that to achieve DF, it isn't easy. The last time Natsu went DF was after he consumed Etherion. So even if Laxus was in better condition, it's possible that the amount of power they gave Natsu was the same. Especially since Jellal couldn't fight after giving Natsu power but Laxus still had the strength to get up and punch Hades.
Anyways, you can have the last word if you wish. Like I said, I think Hades is overrated. With his heart, he is on the level of someone like Mard Geer. But without it, he is much weaker.
Although I see your point, I don't think Hades can actually wipe the floor with Zero. Zero was able to fight on par with DF Natsu for quite a while. Not to mention, he blocked DF Natsu's Crimson Lotus: Exploding Flame Blade. Hades tanking hits from Laxus and Team Natsu isn't all that impressive to be honest. They were low level attacks. Zero may have weaker durability than Hades, but in a fight, he would block Hades' attacks rather than tanking them. So I still stick to my position that Hades would have a tough time with Zero.
Why wouldn't that make sense? remember that DF natsu barely beat zero. Zero was going toe to toe with DF natsu and at one point was winning until their final attack LFD natsu dominated base hades nivervna Df natsu is weaker than tenrou LFD and hades was taken down by a combination attack by team natsu
Dragon Force vs Fire Dragon King mode:
Again I don't see any reason reason why Natsu can't use Fire Dragon King spells while he's in Dragon Force. The largest advantage of FDK mode is arguably the body heat that accompanies it. This is useful against taking down Spriggan 12 members, like Jacob who start to burn up in close proximity. However against someone who can withstand the heat (like Zeref), I would argue the physical transformation of a dragon's body is more useful - which dragon force provides.
Dragon Force vs Lightning-Fire mode:
Even if you say that Tenrou-Arc's lightning mode was more impressive than Oracion-Arc's dragon force, that really only boils down to a difference between Laxus and Jellal's power. When Natsu uses both modes with his own power, dragon force is superior. His performance during the Tartarus arc against Mard Geer confirms this.
Fire Dragon King mode vs END's power:
I don't agree with END mode being stronger than FDK mode. Jacob felt Acnologia's magical presence, and he also saw Acnologia blow a hole through God Serena. He was still willing to go after Acnologia had August not stopped him, so it could very well be that Jacob is more steadfast than Dimaria. I also don't see the presence of a shock-wave from Natsu and Gray' punches being a major indicator of power. The AoE of the resulting collision wasn't as that impressive compared to a similar collision from Erza vs. Knightwalker - which was enough to level a small floating island.
Why wouldn't that make sense? remember that DF natsu barely beat zero. Zero was going toe to toe with DF natsu and at one point was winning until their final attack LFD natsu dominated base hades nivervna did natsu is weaker than tenrou LFD and hades was taken down by a combination attack by team natsu
Well, I guess it depends what you mean by "dominate". LFD Natsu failed to knock out Base Hades (he still got back up). Meanwhile, DF Natsu actually defeated Zero. And like I stated earlier, I don't think the combination attack by Team Natsu was that significant. Capricorn is weak. Wendy's Sky Dragon Wing Attack is not that strong. Gray's Ice Bringer is a low level spell and Erza didn't even use her best attack. Keep in mind that she barely defeated Azuma who is many times weaker than Hades. That is why I said all those attacks did negligible damage.
Well, I guess it depends what you mean by "dominate". LFD Natsu failed to knock out Base Hades (he still got back up). Meanwhile, DF Natsu actually defeated Zero. And like I stated earlier, I don't think the combination attack by Team Natsu was that significant. Capricorn is weak. Wendy's Sky Dragon Wing Attack is not that strong. Gray's Ice Bringer is a low level spell and Erza didn't even use her best attack. Keep in mind that she barely defeated Azuma who is many times weaker than Hades. That is why I said all those attacks did negligible damage.
base hades didn't stand a chance which is why he went on to use his demon eye version. Zero isn't close to hades level so comparing DF natsu to team natsu plus laxus isn't worth debating on. DF natsu didn't dominate zero. Doesn't matter how powerful their attack is the fact of the matter is he tanked combination attack by team natsu
