Fantasy August vs Irene

[sharkai]

Just like it's rocket science that august can copy people magic it means he can copy and retain it hence why makarov said he know more magic than zeref Obviously he copy magic and keep it. Sorry buddy by ur logic Irene>zeref until he shows it since dragons are highly immune to magic I don't care what u believe. U can't be bias with ur logic and then switch it up to benefit ur argument u have to stay consistent with it.why shouldn't she? if she believe she was the strongest she would have said it. If Irene she was stronger than august then she wouldn't be taken order from august the general of the 12 if anything she would be she at least on par with him. lol Irene was trying way hard than august who was simply toying with gildartz and Cana and also easily beat CS august was way more impressive than Irene. August is the strongest spriggan and was confirmed in the manga.

Yes markarov thought he knew all magic. August kept on claiming that too. But manga made it clear. He just copied them.
And we have no example of him retaining any magic other than the doubtful example of meteor. Midnight can literally sleep and refract cana cards. August not even close. Even though we saw him using midnight own magic to beat him.

Also i dont remember him copying any springgan tier magic. I dont think he used crash on gildarts or cana.

Irene takes order from august? Lol. She only did that once and to save poor august face.

I dont think Irene is necessary stronger than august. But she has a severe advantage over him.

Mp wise they are equal. Unless dragon irene has more mp
Hp wise irene laughs at august cause she is a dragon.
Hax goes to august though.

Over all they might be equal. But august has no real way to beat dragon irene.

Dont forget august was jumping away from cana cards like they were gonna one shot him. That was indeed impressive

If you actually look at the fight
Irene was far more impressive

Speed wise
Brute strength wise
August only look better in hax catagory.

Think about it yourself. You have to give august ability to have him stand a chance against irene. You are saying he has historia. Or ds magic . Both he has never shown.
Otherwise if you go by what was shown. Irene stomps august.

Also note. You wont wont even try to give irene abilities
Like what erza did with historia. Which reminded nienhart of irene. He then went on to say because of that historia wont work on erza. This magic which erza did was apprently irene like. But you think historia will work fine on irene. And of course irene cant turn them into flowers either.
I am sure you believe human irene can easily take dragon irene. Even though that makes no sense.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2017 ---

Since I still have a bit of time before attending to other stuff offline, I'll try to map out various scenarios and conditions in this match, given that what is available to us is rather limited. Pardon the pedantry in my presentation, and I hope to be able to handle this topic in a fair and comprehensive manner.

Before proceeding, I would like to note as a sort of summary that many of the arguments that I've seen so far hinge on competing exception-claims, whether explicitly stated or implicitly supposed. On the one hand there's the claim that the magic that August uses is really really special, or better yet, that August himself is really really special among humans. On the other hand, there's the claim that dragons and their magic are really really special, or better yet, that Irene herself is really really special among dragon slayers turned dragons. Again, the details available to us can be interpreted either way, and those two claims aren't really mutually exclusive. Yet there remains the matter of which claim is given more emphasis and credence to the point of trumping the other claim. Now, I also note that besides metaphysical and logical arguments given the structure of the world partially painted in Fairy Tail, there are certain 'narrative' arguments concerning plot relevance and symbolic effects and visual presentation, things such as rankings and character traits and even the very order of on-panel debuts, that are used to favor one claim over another. But more importantly, we have to admit that, notwithstanding all these nuances, certain people side with certain characters more than others, and these valuations and prejudices and sentiments tend to sway which interpretation is adopted. Now, me liking August's character more than Irene's and my desire to believe that he has maximally mastered his magic regardless of whether or not Irene has maximally mastered her magic does not preclude me from taking a step back to critically examine the situation.

I carefully distinguish between (1) the question about which of the two is superior in which aspect, and (2) the question about who would win in an encounter. I define 'superior' in terms of power, whether quantitative or qualitative. Thus I consider X to be superior to Y in aspect Z if and only if the power of X is greater than the power of Y with respect to aspect Z. By extension, I consider X to be overall superior to Y if and only if, given a certain number of relevant aspects weighted according to impact, there are more and heavier aspects where X is superior to Y. Also, I define 'win' minimally, as something akin to a checkmate in chess, where the king piece is not captured/killed but merely cornered with no means of escape. I'm not sure how battlefield removal or sealing techniques of temporary duration apply given my stipulations, but I'll consider them to be weak 'wins' for that specific encounter, meaning that for example, Irene 'won' weakly against Acnologia via Universe One in a particular round, without necessarily meaning that she can kill him or that she is superior to him in any way. That being said, I'll move on to my main point.

Consider first the ideal scenario where August can copy and retain ALL caster magic as well as negate ALL caster magic within his vicinity and where Irene can enchant ANY item and spell as well as freely switch between human and dragon form, with magic power and overall health being the only internal constraints, and without external factors that might hamper either of them.

With regard to the first question, in this super-optimal setup I consider August to still be superior in terms of magical versatility, whereas Irene retains her superiority in terms of physical attributes, with certain details up for debate as they will be crucial points determining the answer to the second question.

In terms of magic, August should be able to counter caster spells used by Irene, while Irene should be able to disenchant August's spells. One crucial issue is whether enchantment is a sort of technique that can be classified as either caster or holder magic. If so, then August can copy and negate Irene's enchantments even the sage-infused ones unless Irene uses her staff or her gloves as the medium of enchantment, but if not, then Irene may very well be able to enchant August and perhaps to the extent of removing his very magic. Supposing that Irene attempts to tamper with August's very magic reserves, a crucial issue is whether August has a strong enough magical defense to resist magical attacks whether of a caster or a holder sort. If so, then August can repel Irene's attempt without having to resort to copying and negating, but if not, then Irene wins in a cheap yet brilliant maneuver, leaving August at her mercy.

A side issue is whether or not August can use copied enchantment to bypass the restrictions of his copying ability, or alternatively, if August has copied another sort of caster copying magic that can copy holder magic. If so, then he becomes practically immune to all magic save those attacks with magic power exceeding his own.

Now, if Irene shifts to dragon form and taps into sage magic, assuming that enchantment is classifiable as caster or holder magic, then August can still copy and negate caster enchantment although he's not likely to match the scale of Irene's enchantments unless he too copies the sage quality to even things out. In the event of Irene's master enchantments overpowering August's copied enchantments, a crucial issue is whether Irene and August can utilize other techniques while trying to sustain their respective enchantments. If so, then August can use other spells in tandem with copied enchantment and in turn, Irene can disenchant August's spells while simultaneously maintaining her primary enchantment against him. But if not, then Irene's enchantment continues to overpower August's enchantment unless he finds a way out. A possible loophole is if Irene while in dragon form nonetheless uses an item to perform master enchantment, thereby bypassing August's copy and negation abilities and deal directly with August's magical defense, assuming August has not found a loophole of his own.

In terms of physical attributes, while it goes beyond saying that a dragon normally outclasses a human, a crucial issue is whether August's physical defense and endurance can at least stand up to Irene's physical attacks in dragon form, assuming they both refrain from using magic or their supplementary magic attacks somehow cancel each other out. If so, then he can continue fighting despite the injuries, but if not, then Irene wins.

The analyses so far compare August's counters against Irene's attacks, but let me now flip the situation. Assuming August has already copied Dragon Slayer magic or has a special magic attack that can harm dragons, a crucial question is whether Irene can completely consume or disenchant the dragon-slaying attributes of some magical spell or item thrown at her. If so, then Irene remains unscathed, but if not, then she is harmed and August can win depending on the damage inflicted.

At any rate, either of them can weakly win if one gets a chance to temporarily seal or remove the other.

The tricky thing is in talking about non-ideal scenarios. Suffice it to say for now that in many cases, one has to assume that August is really really special, or that he has copied some advantageous magic, in order for him to be able to challenge and perhaps overpower dragons, barring the likes of Acnologia and Igneel. Without that crucial premise, Irene wins against normal humans of whatever magic ability even if she's just an average dragon. In addition, if August is deemed really really special, Irene in turn would have to be seen as really really special in order to stand up to him. The question is, given the limited details available to us because Mashima is rushing things and did not exert more effort to flesh out secondary antagonists, to what extent do we presume August to be special, and why?

Of course it is easy to say that those who want the magic king or the dragon queen to be really really special are either character fans or those who take certain statements by certain sources seriously, but what motivates those who deliberately downplay either rather than simply abstaining or strictly suspending judgment?

Remarks will be most appreciated.

Problem is people arent that fair.
They think both august and irene are special. In the sense that august can have a ds without any outside help. Meanwhile irene is special in another way. She is abnormally weak to ds. More so than other dragons.
Think human irene.above dragon irene. But human aconologia beating dragon aconologia wont be even considered.

Thats the problem.
Its basically
hyped up august vs dehyped irene

And obviously hyped up august always beats dehyped irene.

People here believe that while august can copy all magic except entirely obscure ones like universe 1 or dragon control future rouge used. But a move irene hyped so much can be easily stopped by alot weaker mages. In the power thread people were actually talking about how half the springgan could stop it and pretty much almost all the good guys could stop.

I dont use irene enchanting abilities in vs thread because i dont know what irene can do with them. And i dont like giving abilities to people.

But i did make a some senario myself
I will give their abilities and you tell me what you think or who would win
1) august can copy all magic. But cannot retain them. Meaning he has access to only his opponent magic. Vs irene
2) same as above but he cant copy irene magic because he has never shown to copy at irene tier
The above two are base on what august showed. Since august couldn't refract cana cards or gildart metal arm something midnight can do with ease. And nfl because he has never faced a mage of irene level.
3) he can copy and retain all magic except ds magic. But can copy nienhart magic (even though he doesnt even have brandish magic) since i am giving this benefit of doubt to august. I will give one to irene. Historia are ineffective aginst her. Like nienhart said that his historia wont work on erza.
4) august can even retain ds magic. Who is stronger. The final stage of ds the dragon. Or a base dragon slayer a human.
And finally all you can eat benefit of doubts
5) august can retain all magic except dragon irene level. And irene cannot turn back to human.


The first three abnormally favour irene. But they are mostly base on what manga showed.
The last two. August has a chance. And manga hinted at those.

As far as how one should approach this battle. Simple

Feats vs feats.
Only shown abilities and weaknesses are allowed

Hype vs hype
Ability which they might have can be used. Like august historia and ds august. Meanwhile dragon irene is undoubtedly far stronger than human irene. And historia wont work on her just like erza

Dehype vs dehype.
August cant retain copied magic. And he cant copy ds. Irene deus sema is easily stoppable. Her dragon form is one shottable by strong ds

And i think this would be most fair.
And we can protrayal.as well that irene and august are equal or around each other. In other words
One either take 50% of the matches or at most 60% of the matches because of some advantage.

 

[inactive lurker account]

This will be shorter than the first two.

The really big problem that Mashima left us with regard to August is that, on the one hand, the magic king is built up in terms of lore and reputation, but on the other hand, he is made systematically underwhelming in terms of on-panel showings, save for the part where he dealt with Jellal and co. With regard to Irene, Mashima clearly gave more of the spotlight to her but did not clearly state her standing vis-a-vis August. In other words, we are merely teased with certain suggestions and statements of varying credibility.

We really have to radically revisit the way we compare and contrast characters, and this applies not just to August and Irene, but to everyone in every series. For one thing, I carefully distinguish between a hypothetical simulated encounter given some set of conditions, and a simplistic tale-of-the-tape tallying of feats. It is one thing to say that the feats of one trump the feats of the other and thus one beats the other strictly on the basis of past visible performance, but it is another thing altogether to claim that the feats provide the absolute minimum or absolute maximum of what one is capable of. Note that this doesn't yet touch upon the thorny matter of how strict we are supposed to be when assessing power showings and their circumstances. I mean, we see feats, but we don't necessarily get the complete account of their mechanisms. At times we just let parsimony, or rather complacency and convenience, work their magic.

With regard to what we call hype, I have an issue with the term, which I restrict to mean reader effects and responses, and prefer to talk about things like portrayal and potential. Like I mention, August is portrayed very very favorably as far as magic power and versatility are concerned. It seems to me that in order for August to defeat dragons, one has to further assume that (1) his magic potential is that special in line with his magnified portrayal and the corresponding hype generated therein, and that (2) he is close to maximizing his potential, with advantageous consequences in terms of physical stats. Turning to Irene, she is portrayed either in relation to August, or as a dragon-slaying enchantress. It seems to me that in order for Irene to remain on top, one has to further assume that (1) her mastery of enchantment and Dragon Slaying Magic is unparalleled and not easily replicable, and that (2) August's magic power has little to no bearing on his physical stats.

An apparent pattern emerges. The closer August reaches perfection of his capabilities, the more likely he is to defeat anyone who can be harmed by magic but cannot take him down physically. Irene doesn't seem to have that perk, but the discursive advantage in her favor is that the less special a mage of a species inferior to a dragon is, the less like likely that mage can defeat her. This is usually when the other really really special characters, Zeref and Acnologia, are brought into the discussion. For instance, those who think highly of August would nonetheless see Acnologia as too much of a threat, while those who think highly of Irene would nonetheless acknowledge Zeref as the exception. So this boils down to the question of whether August, a side character, can lay claim to exceptional status akin to both main antagonists.

At any rate, we wouldn't be in this predicament if Mashima just used more effort to develop both August and Irene. And I have to say that whichever among them is superior overall, it's clear to me that August as a character and a plot device got the shorter end of the stick despite all the promises and expectations, and for that I am severely disappointed.

I just wish the afterword in the relevant volume will give this matter a bit more closure and clarity... otherwise we'll all just be repeating the same set of stock argumentative responses of overestimation and underestimation

 

[Seven777]

And igneel can do magic too. Is he also a mage?
Then why didnt natsu eat the fire ds?
He is uniquness has nothing to do with his copy ability.

Dragonizing isnt dragon force. Then what is.
Are you seriously saying natus df above future possible natsu dragon form?
Or dragon aconologia weaker than human aconologia.
And erza had no time to note mp. She only noted a dragon and then she was broken.

And we havent seen gildart over power desus sema.
If you starting the argument that
August trumps gildarts magic. And gildart trumps irene magic. Then you starting already with the premise that irene is alot weaker than august. Of course i am not going to accept that.

Its extremely unfair that august cant only copy some obscure magic or magic which even even effects aconologia meanwhile someone far below irene can over come her dues sema. If you give benefit of doubt to only one character like this even
Lucy might take out laxus like this.

How does august tie in 3
So basically you belive as long as august can do any magic what so ever he is equal to irene.
Otherwise he straight out beat irene
Basically you have as much hype as possible given to august. And zero to irene.

Figures.



Mine would have been
1) irene. While august might get irene ds. Irene can eat her own ds. Its a stompfest here.
2) irene
3) since he cant copy ds. His only option to harm irene is historia. Which are ineffective against irene (as stated in the point). This also a stomp fest
4) this would normally go to irene as well. Unless you think human irene can defeat dragon irene. Or human aconologia can defeat dragon aconologia. (You basically believe there is no increase in power. Only abnormal high vulnerability to ds magic.)
5) same as 4.

He has only chances of beating irene in 4 or 5. Depending on human aconologia beating dragon aconologia. All other irene beat him in extreme low diff and those are the one which are based on feats shown in the manga. Unless you believe that irene is extremely unique dragon who wont be able to eat or negate her own ds.

What you basically doing
Hype for august
1) He can copy and retain magic. (Not 100% confirm as shown by him not refracting cana cards like a sleeping midnight can do but one doubtful example of him keeping magic. Possible meteor
2) he can copy magic which no human can learn themselve like ds (never shown and 90% chances of being purely wrong)
3) he can retain ds. Basically he is a ds. Who doesnt have dragon or dragon lacrima (pretty much false. As it was never shown)
4) nfl does not apply to august. He is immune to irene magic and can copy her magic too. Even though he has never copied any springgan tier magic. Did he even use crash? He was crashed himself. But dont remember crashing cana or gildart. And he has never shown to be immune to irene tier magic.

Dehype for irene
1) far weaker mages can over power her top tier move (even though over flowing pof was involved)
2) a move that broke nearly all erza bones is completely irrelevant (something that would even wreck august in one hit) also ignore nienhart remembering irene when erza showed some weird power making his historia useless. Thus historia work fine on irene. But not on erza
3) nfl applies to irene. She cant turn people far below her into rats. Because she has never done that to any mage of springgan tier.
3) dragon irene has so weak durability that she is practically one shottable by her human self(even though it was plot force that did that)
4) since dragon is infact not the final stage of ds anymore. She has no increase in her speed or hitting force and power. (Pretty much fcks up most of fairy tail series)

Dont you agree with the points i stated above (hype and dehype). That is what you believe, right?



Human irene has one of the best durability shown in the manga. August might have more. Or they might be around each other. There is absolutely no reason to believe that her dragon form is any less durable compared to other dragons.
Human irene speed is already equal to red form august speed
Would red form august incased in magic be able to keep up with dragon speed? He did try to blitz cana in that way. But i remember you think if someone manages to put up a block. Its not a blitz. So technically august didnt even blitz cana in that form.
And why does irene gain ability to do master enchant in dragon from. Something she cant do in human. What is actually different between these two forms other that physical form. Does her magic change. Does she gain.power or something ?

I dunno, Igneel was never human to begin with, but maybe he is a mage. That aside, Eileen called herself an enchantress or a sorceress or something, so yeah, she's still counted among mages.
Natsu tried negating it, whether that means eating it or something else, he chose to do what'd protect Lucy and the rest, not himself.
Physically Dragons are superior, in terms of MP, no change. As shown by Gildarts still sensing human Acno's arrival despite never meeting his human form.
Yeah, we havent seen Gildarts destroy Deus Sema, its just my opinion that he can cause he should be stronger than Erza.
August didnt trump Gildarts magic, he copied it. The strength of GIldarts MP has nothing to do with Crash, anyone can learn magic, August just cheats.
Its not unfair cause we have already seen someone far below Eileen destroy Deus Sema, assuming others can is not unreasonable.
Assuming August can copy DS magic is barely an assumption, it was pretty much confirmed in his fight with Gildarts.

He ties in 3 cause of Ars Magia.
On top of that you may remember that i've always maintained that Dragons have NO immunity to magic, they are just extremely durable. So August fighting to a draw without DS magic seems perfectly reasonable to me. Neither side has a special advantage, so both are equally matched as hyped.

Haha, so naturally your opinions is that Eileen wins all 5 scenarios? Shouldve known, i had figured you'd at least throw August one victory from hype.
For your hype and dehype points, i agree with all except "Dehype Number 4". Disagree with everything that was in brackets though.

I agree human EIleen durability is good. Dragon Eileen durability is good too, but MUCH weaker than her human durability when faced with DS.
Human Eileen speed is good, however im of the opinion that a dragon's agility is generally low compared to a humans due to their size.
Meteor August couldnt keep up with flying EIleen in a race to the finish, but would fly circles around her in a battle, agility is more important here.
I dunno what Master Enchant is, but it appears to enhanced her enchanting abilities through the "wisdom of a dragon" at least thats what she said.

 

[sharkai]

I dunno, Igneel was never human to begin with, but maybe he is a mage. That aside, Eileen called herself an enchantress or a sorceress or something, so yeah, she's still counted among mages.
Natsu tried negating it, whether that means eating it or something else, he chose to do what'd protect Lucy and the rest, not himself.
Physically Dragons are superior, in terms of MP, no change. As shown by Gildarts still sensing human Acno's arrival despite never meeting his human form.
Yeah, we havent seen Gildarts destroy Deus Sema, its just my opinion that he can cause he should be stronger than Erza.
August didnt trump Gildarts magic, he copied it. The strength of GIldarts MP has nothing to do with Crash, anyone can learn magic, August just cheats.
Its not unfair cause we have already seen someone far below Eileen destroy Deus Sema, assuming others can is not unreasonable.
Assuming August can copy DS magic is barely an assumption, it was pretty much confirmed in his fight with Gildarts.

He ties in 3 cause of Ars Magia.
On top of that you may remember that i've always maintained that Dragons have NO immunity to magic, they are just extremely durable. So August fighting to a draw without DS magic seems perfectly reasonable to me. Neither side has a special advantage, so both are equally matched as hyped.

Haha, so naturally your opinions is that Eileen wins all 5 scenarios? Shouldve known, i had figured you'd at least throw August one victory from hype.
For your hype and dehype points, i agree with all except "Dehype Number 4". Disagree with everything that was in brackets though.

I agree human EIleen durability is good. Dragon Eileen durability is good too, but MUCH weaker than her human durability when faced with DS.
Human Eileen speed is good, however im of the opinion that a dragon's agility is generally low compared to a humans due to their size.
Meteor August couldnt keep up with flying EIleen in a race to the finish, but would fly circles around her in a battle, agility is more important here.
I dunno what Master Enchant is, but it appears to enhanced her enchanting abilities through the "wisdom of a dragon" at least thats what she said.

Those points i made were unfair from the start.
As i said. I made them in such a way that irene stomps in 1 to 3
4 to 5 win is possible for august. But i dont have base dragon slayer above a real dragon
These points have nothing to do with who is the strongest. Rather one with severe advantage.

Ars magic wont work. Irene will be out of town before it does much. Thus rednering august sacrifice pretty much useless

How would one tie if irene is alot more durable than august. And they have same mp.

You think meteor jellal can spun circle around dragon irene. Just because she is huge. Wouldnt that same apply to igneel and aconologia.
Beside his meteor hardly faster than erza on feet. Especially his blitz on cana.


And that is the problem. You are giving so much benefit of doubt to one character. This way august will always win.
Yes august does trump gildart magic. He negates it completely. So yeah i find it completely unfair. While august easily can negate gildart magic. And gildart can over power irene stronger moves

Pof erza is above gildart. By a respectable margin. Plot helped alot here.


Whats wrong with dehype 4. You dont think dragon irene is more powerful than human irene other physical strength. As far as i can see
All things in bracket are normally correct. Like we have no example of august keeping any magic. Other than one obscure example.
And giving him ds ability is really no where in the manga.
Melt was not a ds fire. Otherwise natsu would have ate it. Melt was just heat based spell. Nothing more of it was mention especially not ds magic.
And one shoting with a claw is perfectly reasonable as well. She broke nearly all bones in erza including breaking her sword. Even if we say august is more durable. He is definitely not that more durable.

As i said to someone else
You are not talking about
August vs irene

You are talking about
Hyped up august vs dehyped irene.
Basically it was plot which stoped august from using midnight or brandish magic
But what happened to irene wasnt plot forced at all
In this victor is clear. The one you gave too much hype wins

 

[Seven777]

Those points i made were unfair from the start.
As i said. I made them in such a way that irene stomps in 1 to 3
4 to 5 win is possible for august. But i dont have base dragon slayer above a real dragon
These points have nothing to do with who is the strongest. Rather one with severe advantage.

Ars magic wont work. Irene will be out of town before it does much. Thus rednering august sacrifice pretty much useless

How would one tie if irene is alot more durable than august. And they have same mp.

You think meteor jellal can spun circle around dragon irene. Just because she is huge. Wouldnt that same apply to igneel and aconologia.
Beside his meteor hardly faster than erza on feet. Especially his blitz on cana.


And that is the problem. You are giving so much benefit of doubt to one character. This way august will always win.
Yes august does trump gildart magic. He negates it completely. So yeah i find it completely unfair. While august easily can negate gildart magic. And gildart can over power irene stronger moves

Pof erza is above gildart. By a respectable margin. Plot helped alot here.


Whats wrong with dehype 4. You dont think dragon irene is more powerful than human irene other physical strength. As far as i can see
All things in bracket are normally correct. Like we have no example of august keeping any magic. Other than one obscure example.
And giving him ds ability is really no where in the manga.
Melt was not a ds fire. Otherwise natsu would have ate it. Melt was just heat based spell. Nothing more of it was mention especially not ds magic.
And one shoting with a claw is perfectly reasonable as well. She broke nearly all bones in erza including breaking her sword. Even if we say august is more durable. He is definitely not that more durable.

As i said to someone else
You are not talking about
August vs irene

You are talking about
Hyped up august vs dehyped irene.
Basically it was plot which stoped august from using midnight or brandish magic
But what happened to irene wasnt plot forced at all
In this victor is clear. The one you gave too much hype wins

Did you say that? Well anyway, the only scenario i wouldve said Eileen would stomp is 2, though you made a good point for 1 as well.
Out of town? Eileen gonna drag her melting body out of there? Even Mavis' immortal body was coughing up blood and unable to use magic.
They would tie because Eileen would be limited purely to physical attacks, while August still has access to his spells. The logical thing to do would be to keep his distance with Slow/Meteor and staying one step ahead of her with Telepathy, all the while firing off nukes and lasers and shit.

Igneel/Acno>>>>>>Eileen. But yes, a wizard on par with either of them would be more agile. Even bloody Sting was able to outrun his GMG Dragon and he was far from its equal. While not in flight mode, Dragons just arent that fast.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, i admitted to agreeing with your hype/dehype points, but i never agreed that any of them were actually hype/dehype.
1. Deus Sema isnt hax 2. August's ability to copy/negate has no physical form to destroy 3. August's sole ability>Deus Sema.
Copying/negating is the core of August's strength, everything about him revolves around it. Gildarts being unaffected by that magic would be like overpowering Eileen's Dragon Form without DS advantage, it would be a feat completely beyond destroying Deus Sema.

I think Dragon Eileen is superior to human Eileen as long as she doesnt face DS magic.
August's ability is the "instantaneous copying of magic". Nothiing about that statement implies or suggests he loses it at some point after the fight. If you are going to claim that he does, you have to find the proof.
Melt was clearly shown alongside other instances August copied his opponents magic, Natsu was the only fire wizard present, August knowing DS is canon.
Breaking Erza's bones doesnt mean she can break August's, doesnt even mean she can break God Serena's.

No, its only you that label's it as hype vs dehype because you get upset when someone says August>Eileen. Beside's, i do think what happened to Eileen was plot forced, she shouldnt have entered dragon form, she shouldnt have cast Deus Sema, she shouldnt have turned back into a human from DS magic.

 

[sharkai]

Did you say that? Well anyway, the only scenario i wouldve said Eileen would stomp is 2, though you made a good point for 1 as well.
Out of town? Eileen gonna drag her melting body out of there? Even Mavis' immortal body was coughing up blood and unable to use magic.
They would tie because Eileen would be limited purely to physical attacks, while August still has access to his spells. The logical thing to do would be to keep his distance with Slow/Meteor and staying one step ahead of her with Telepathy, all the while firing off nukes and lasers and shit.

Igneel/Acno>>>>>>Eileen. But yes, a wizard on par with either of them would be more agile. Even bloody Sting was able to outrun his GMG Dragon and he was far from its equal. While not in flight mode, Dragons just arent that fast.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, i admitted to agreeing with your hype/dehype points, but i never agreed that any of them were actually hype/dehype.
1. Deus Sema isnt hax 2. August's ability to copy/negate has no physical form to destroy 3. August's sole ability>Deus Sema.
Copying/negating is the core of August's strength, everything about him revolves around it. Gildarts being unaffected by that magic would be like overpowering Eileen's Dragon Form without DS advantage, it would be a feat completely beyond destroying Deus Sema.

I think Dragon Eileen is superior to human Eileen as long as she doesnt face DS magic.
August's ability is the "instantaneous copying of magic". Nothiing about that statement implies or suggests he loses it at some point after the fight. If you are going to claim that he does, you have to find the proof.
Melt was clearly shown alongside other instances August copied his opponents magic, Natsu was the only fire wizard present, August knowing DS is canon.
Breaking Erza's bones doesnt mean she can break August's, doesnt even mean she can break God Serena's.

No, its only you that label's it as hype vs dehype because you get upset when someone says August>Eileen. Beside's, i do think what happened to Eileen was plot forced, she shouldnt have entered dragon form, she shouldnt have cast Deus Sema, she shouldnt have turned back into a human from DS magic.

Gildart and cana did move. Irene would jump and leave. Her dragon body would fine for awhile.

Irene >>>> jellal
As well. So that doesnt help. August meteor is nothing special.
And if dragons arent fast. Then dragon force shouldnt be fast either.

I have proof. He has never retain any old magic from OS. And used them against gildart and cana.
He never copied a springgan tier magic.

Melt wasnt fire magic. Its heat base . Nothing about it being ds was mentioned at all. This is stark contrast whenever a dragon slayer does magic in their intro. Natsu always notes it. Against laxus. Against cobra.

Why do you keep on bringing physical form. You know nothing about magic. Hell i doubt even mishma knows much about it.
When information isnt clear. You cant just say this supports your argument. It goes either way. Negating something august does all the time << overpowering irene top tier move. Just like ars magic is above august copy negating abilty

Breaking erza bones means august will be wrecked after it. Even if he is much more durable. Serena will be in pieces. Laxus will be as broken as erza.
Basically your saying something like a punch which ripped laxus in half wont wreck august. Or ko serena.


They are hype and dehype.
August isnt effected by nlf. He can copy springgan tier. Though he has never done so
But irene is apparently

You think dragons are weaker than their human form because of severe disadvantage of ds magic. Something you yourself will laugh at before irene vs erza went down.

You are happy to give august ds abilities from a small clue. Yet at the same time you are ready to ignore half the series which repeatedly showed how strong dragons were. Even now zeref is still talking about strength of a dragon. They are last stage of dragon slayer magic
Dragon > dragon force >> base dragon slayer

You wont even give irene ability which was as much hinted as august copying ds magic. Like historia being useless against irene.

So yes.
You arent treating irene and august equally
You are giving as much as doubt as possible to august
He has all magic. Even ds. And 100 times more durable than erza. O and he can copy irene level magic too. And negated irene level magic too.
All these things he has never shown.
And you are dehyping irene as much as you can
Human irene with ds > dragon irene
Human irene speed > dragon irene speed
All things you cant prove at all

If you do this. I assure you can easily prove
Lucy >> laxus

 

[inactive lurker account]

Having said all that I have said on this matter, I'll try to summarize further.

It seems to me that certain key orientations or tendencies pop up every now and then in this discussion:

1.1) August is exceptional enough, magically and also physically, to take on and even take down dragons, barring anomalies like Acnologia.
1.2) August isn't that exceptional, and so he stands little chance against a dragon.

2.1) Irene is exceptional enough in that even if August were special, she would still be poised to win.
2.2) Irene isn't that exceptional as a dragon, and so she stands to lose depending on how special August turns out to be.

3.1) August and Irene are on par, and this consideration sets the extent to which either one of them is said to be exceptional.
3.2) August and Irene aren't really on par, and the extent to which either one of them is said to be exceptional will determine who is superior overall and who will emerge victorious.

4.1) We don't really know for sure, because what's available to us do not amount to decisive demonstrations.
4.2) We can claim to know more or less about their ranking, because there are certain statements that can be taken as indispensable premises for the story.

Please note if this is a fair enough broad picture, and which side you're on, and why.

Personally I lean towards 1.1 and 2.2 and thus 3.2, although I don't mind tentatively sticking to 3.1 for the sake of the discussion, and careful consideration would make me stand by 4.1 as a matter of principle.

That being said, I feel bad that Mashima did not at least tell us 1) how Irene came to learn and master enchantment, 2) to what extent can enchantment be used on things, 3) what exactly is the nature of August's special magic that's neither light nor dark, and 4) how many forms of magic August copied, and which ones haven't been copied.

 

[Seven777]

Gildart and cana did move. Irene would jump and leave. Her dragon body would fine for awhile.

Irene >>>> jellal
As well. So that doesnt help. August meteor is nothing special.
And if dragons arent fast. Then dragon force shouldnt be fast either.

I have proof. He has never retain any old magic from OS. And used them against gildart and cana.
He never copied a springgan tier magic.

Melt wasnt fire magic. Its heat base . Nothing about it being ds was mentioned at all. This is stark contrast whenever a dragon slayer does magic in their intro. Natsu always notes it. Against laxus. Against cobra.

Why do you keep on bringing physical form. You know nothing about magic. Hell i doubt even mishma knows much about it.
When information isnt clear. You cant just say this supports your argument. It goes either way. Negating something august does all the time << overpowering irene top tier move. Just like ars magic is above august copy negating abilty

Breaking erza bones means august will be wrecked after it. Even if he is much more durable. Serena will be in pieces. Laxus will be as broken as erza.
Basically your saying something like a punch which ripped laxus in half wont wreck august. Or ko serena.


They are hype and dehype.
August isnt effected by nlf. He can copy springgan tier. Though he has never done so
But irene is apparently

You think dragons are weaker than their human form because of severe disadvantage of ds magic. Something you yourself will laugh at before irene vs erza went down.

You are happy to give august ds abilities from a small clue. Yet at the same time you are ready to ignore half the series which repeatedly showed how strong dragons were. Even now zeref is still talking about strength of a dragon. They are last stage of dragon slayer magic
Dragon > dragon force >> base dragon slayer

You wont even give irene ability which was as much hinted as august copying ds magic. Like historia being useless against irene.

So yes.
You arent treating irene and august equally
You are giving as much as doubt as possible to august
He has all magic. Even ds. And 100 times more durable than erza. O and he can copy irene level magic too. And negated irene level magic too.
All these things he has never shown.
And you are dehyping irene as much as you can
Human irene with ds > dragon irene
Human irene speed > dragon irene speed
All things you cant prove at all

If you do this. I assure you can easily prove
Lucy >> laxus

You mean Gildarts and Cana moved from right next to each other to huddled together lol? Cana could literally just lean right and she'd be in Gildart's arms.
Sure, Jellal<<<<<Eileen, but August=Eileen.
Dragon Force wizards are still human sized, they dont gain any dragon weight or size. Sting is faster than a dragon, that should tell you something
Thats not proof or anything close to it, Erza hasnt used Nakagami to cut through any magic since GMG, should i assume its lost that property?
Natsu didnt note Laxus' had dragon slayer magic until Laxus actually used a move with "DS" in its name, he was quite shocked really. Melt is DS.
Because something with a physical form can be broken,
Why? Its exactly what you are doing. August negating magic=Eileen's dragon form, overcoming August's negation is akin to overpowering dragon Eileen.
Serena proved his durability superior by easily tanking GoI while Erza was getting hurt by Azuma/Ikaruga tiers. August maybe gets a bruise per swipe.
August has already copied Gildarts/Jellal tier magic, Gildarts>>most people including spriggans.

So we've made it to the bias accusation section aye? Alright, lets get to it.
Both Eileen and August get affected by nlf, but not by much. Eileen isnt enchanting anyone into mice and August isnt putting anyone to sleep with a wave of his hand, but other than that both can do pretty much anything they want because they are stronger than pretty much everyone. No hype or dehype.
Yes, i would laugh at that before Erza/Eileen, in fact i'd call you an idiot for saying it. But Erza did it, so thats how it is, DS advantage is just that good.
Yes, i am happy to give August DS from that clue. And yes Dragonize>Dragon Force>>Human.
No i'll give Eileen being immune to historia like Erza, tbh i didnt even think of that til you brought it up.
Cant prove? What do you mean? I can prove human Eileen's durability is better than her dragons is when faced with DS. Erza's slashes barely fazed human EIleen, couldnt even break her staff. While 1 DS slash oneshot dragon Eileen. Proof is all there. Wendy shouldnt make that much of a difference.
So yes, i am and always have been treating August and Eileen equally, you are the one who is biased towards one. The fact that you are the only person here, even among hardcore Eileen fans, who bothers with the nonsensical argument that "August doesnt retain copied magic" proves it. No one else even considered the possibility, because its clearly not what the manga portrays. Its clear you are just looking for an excuse to weaken August.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---

Having said all that I have said on this matter, I'll try to summarize further.

It seems to me that certain key orientations or tendencies pop up every now and then in this discussion:

1.1) August is exceptional enough, magically and also physically, to take on and even take down dragons, barring anomalies like Acnologia.
1.2) August isn't that exceptional, and so he stands little chance against a dragon.

2.1) Irene is exceptional enough in that even if August were special, she would still be poised to win.
2.2) Irene isn't that exceptional as a dragon, and so she stands to lose depending on how special August turns out to be.

3.1) August and Irene are on par, and this consideration sets the extent to which either one of them is said to be exceptional.
3.2) August and Irene aren't really on par, and the extent to which either one of them is said to be exceptional will determine who is superior overall and who will emerge victorious.

4.1) We don't really know for sure, because what's available to us do not amount to decisive demonstrations.
4.2) We can claim to know more or less about their ranking, because there are certain statements that can be taken as indispensable premises for the story.

Please note if this is a fair enough broad picture, and which side you're on, and why.

Personally I lean towards 1.1 and 2.2 and thus 3.2, although I don't mind tentatively sticking to 3.1 for the sake of the discussion, and careful consideration would make me stand by 4.1 as a matter of principle.

That being said, I feel bad that Mashima did not at least tell us 1) how Irene came to learn and master enchantment, 2) to what extent can enchantment be used on things, 3) what exactly is the nature of August's special magic that's neither light nor dark, and 4) how many forms of magic August copied, and which ones haven't been copied.

A nice, relatively short summary you got there, been meaning to read your comments but they're pretty long
For me
1.1 - King of Magic is obviously exceptional
2.2 - Eileen is exceptional as a Dragon Slayer, but not as a dragon. Better than GMG nameless dragons though.
3.1 - They're on par, we know they are.
4.2 - Despite being on par, we know August is stronger. He was hyped as the strongest since the beginning, was the general of the 12 and Eileen's superior, fought Gildart's(the guy known as FT's strongest wizard), was the last spriggan to be defeated and said he was the strongest himself. The difference in power is small though.

 

[LaGOAT]

Yes markarov thought he knew all magic. August kept on claiming that too. But manga made it clear. He just copied them.
And we have no example of him retaining any magic other than the doubtful example of meteor. Midnight can literally sleep and refract cana cards. August not even close. Even though we saw him using midnight own magic to beat him.

Also i dont remember him copying any springgan tier magic. I dont think he used crash on gildarts or cana.

Irene takes order from august? Lol. She only did that once and to save poor august face.

I dont think Irene is necessary stronger than august. But she has a severe advantage over him.

Mp wise they are equal. Unless dragon irene has more mp
Hp wise irene laughs at august cause she is a dragon.
Hax goes to august though.

Over all they might be equal. But august has no real way to beat dragon irene.

Dont forget august was jumping away from cana cards like they were gonna one shot him. That was indeed impressive

If you actually look at the fight
Irene was far more impressive

Speed wise
Brute strength wise
August only look better in hax catagory.

Think about it yourself. You have to give august ability to have him stand a chance against irene. You are saying he has historia. Or ds magic . Both he has never shown.
Otherwise if you go by what was shown. Irene stomps august.

Also note. You wont wont even try to give irene abilities
Like what erza did with historia. Which reminded nienhart of irene. He then went on to say because of that historia wont work on erza. This magic which erza did was apprently irene like. But you think historia will work fine on irene. And of course irene cant turn them into flowers either.
I am sure you believe human irene can easily take dragon irene. Even though that makes no sense.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2017 ---

Problem is people arent that fair.
They think both august and irene are special. In the sense that august can have a ds without any outside help. Meanwhile irene is special in another way. She is abnormally weak to ds. More so than other dragons.
Think human irene.above dragon irene. But human aconologia beating dragon aconologia wont be even considered.

Thats the problem.
Its basically
hyped up august vs dehyped irene

And obviously hyped up august always beats dehyped irene.

People here believe that while august can copy all magic except entirely obscure ones like universe 1 or dragon control future rouge used. But a move irene hyped so much can be easily stopped by alot weaker mages. In the power thread people were actually talking about how half the springgan could stop it and pretty much almost all the good guys could stop.

I dont use irene enchanting abilities in vs thread because i dont know what irene can do with them. And i dont like giving abilities to people.

But i did make a some senario myself
I will give their abilities and you tell me what you think or who would win
1) august can copy all magic. But cannot retain them. Meaning he has access to only his opponent magic. Vs irene
2) same as above but he cant copy irene magic because he has never shown to copy at irene tier
The above two are base on what august showed. Since august couldn't refract cana cards or gildart metal arm something midnight can do with ease. And nfl because he has never faced a mage of irene level.
3) he can copy and retain all magic except ds magic. But can copy nienhart magic (even though he doesnt even have brandish magic) since i am giving this benefit of doubt to august. I will give one to irene. Historia are ineffective aginst her. Like nienhart said that his historia wont work on erza.
4) august can even retain ds magic. Who is stronger. The final stage of ds the dragon. Or a base dragon slayer a human.
And finally all you can eat benefit of doubts
5) august can retain all magic except dragon irene level. And irene cannot turn back to human.


The first three abnormally favour irene. But they are mostly base on what manga showed.
The last two. August has a chance. And manga hinted at those.

As far as how one should approach this battle. Simple

Feats vs feats.
Only shown abilities and weaknesses are allowed

Hype vs hype
Ability which they might have can be used. Like august historia and ds august. Meanwhile dragon irene is undoubtedly far stronger than human irene. And historia wont work on her just like erza

Dehype vs dehype.
August cant retain copied magic. And he cant copy ds. Irene deus sema is easily stoppable. Her dragon form is one shottable by strong ds

And i think this would be most fair.
And we can protrayal.as well that irene and august are equal or around each other. In other words
One either take 50% of the matches or at most 60% of the matches because of some advantage.

i wrote a hefty page but something happen so I'm not gonna type again so basically I'm keeping it short. Let's go by ur logic of feats shown if that the case it will be a tie because august will commit suicide to kill Irene using ars Maria. If we go by hype august wins because he can copy ds magic. And one shot her in a dragon form. Yes we can say Irene use the same stare erza use to erase historia. But I can say that august fought CS who one of a member was a DS so he was able to copy and retain the feat. Yes I'm gonna bring zeref in this scenario. Zeref is a human just like august u. Believe that zeref is a tier above Irene? But u also said that a human can't beat a dragon because dragon are highly immune to magic. So why do think that zeref can beat a dragon when he doesn't have the feats? If U feel like zeref can beat dragon Irene who u believe is a tier above her why can't august who u believe that he is equal to Irene can't put damage a dragon Irene? If august can't hurt her neither can zeref

 

[sharkai]

i wrote a hefty page but something happen so I'm not gonna type again so basically I'm keeping it short. Let's go by ur logic of feats shown if that the case it will be a tie because august will commit suicide to kill Irene using ars Maria. If we go by hype august wins because he can copy ds magic. And one shot her in a dragon form. Yes we can say Irene use the same stare erza use to erase historia. But I can say that august fought CS who one of a member was a DS so he was able to copy and retain the feat. Yes I'm gonna bring zeref in this scenario. Zeref is a human just like august u. Believe that zeref is a tier above Irene? But u also said that a human can't beat a dragon because dragon are highly immune to magic. So why do that zeref can beat a dragon when he doesn't have the feats? If U feel like zeref can beat dragon Irene who u believe is a tier above her why can't august who u believe that he is equal to Irene can't put damage a dragon Irene? If august can't hurt her neither can zeref

I do think august can hurt irene without ds. But she will hurt him much more. Cause of reducing august damage ability

Fine. What zeref has shown till now. He gets mid diff by irene.

Unfortunately he has not used one ds magic. So august is not a ds

Only one who might get one shotted here is august

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---

You mean Gildarts and Cana moved from right next to each other to huddled together lol? Cana could literally just lean right and she'd be in Gildart's arms.
Sure, Jellal<<<<<Eileen, but August=Eileen.
Dragon Force wizards are still human sized, they dont gain any dragon weight or size. Sting is faster than a dragon, that should tell you something
Thats not proof or anything close to it, Erza hasnt used Nakagami to cut through any magic since GMG, should i assume its lost that property?
Natsu didnt note Laxus' had dragon slayer magic until Laxus actually used a move with "DS" in its name, he was quite shocked really. Melt is DS.
Because something with a physical form can be broken,
Why? Its exactly what you are doing. August negating magic=Eileen's dragon form, overcoming August's negation is akin to overpowering dragon Eileen.
Serena proved his durability superior by easily tanking GoI while Erza was getting hurt by Azuma/Ikaruga tiers. August maybe gets a bruise per swipe.
August has already copied Gildarts/Jellal tier magic, Gildarts>>most people including spriggans.

So we've made it to the bias accusation section aye? Alright, lets get to it.
Both Eileen and August get affected by nlf, but not by much. Eileen isnt enchanting anyone into mice and August isnt putting anyone to sleep with a wave of his hand, but other than that both can do pretty much anything they want because they are stronger than pretty much everyone. No hype or dehype.
Yes, i would laugh at that before Erza/Eileen, in fact i'd call you an idiot for saying it. But Erza did it, so thats how it is, DS advantage is just that good.
Yes, i am happy to give August DS from that clue. And yes Dragonize>Dragon Force>>Human.
No i'll give Eileen being immune to historia like Erza, tbh i didnt even think of that til you brought it up.
Cant prove? What do you mean? I can prove human Eileen's durability is better than her dragons is when faced with DS. Erza's slashes barely fazed human EIleen, couldnt even break her staff. While 1 DS slash oneshot dragon Eileen. Proof is all there. Wendy shouldnt make that much of a difference.
So yes, i am and always have been treating August and Eileen equally, you are the one who is biased towards one. The fact that you are the only person here, even among hardcore Eileen fans, who bothers with the nonsensical argument that "August doesnt retain copied magic" proves it. No one else even considered the possibility, because its clearly not what the manga portrays. Its clear you are just looking for an excuse to weaken August.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---

A nice, relatively short summary you got there, been meaning to read your comments but they're pretty long
For me
1.1 - King of Magic is obviously exceptional
2.2 - Eileen is exceptional as a Dragon Slayer, but not as a dragon. Better than GMG nameless dragons though.
3.1 - They're on par, we know they are.
4.2 - Despite being on par, we know August is stronger. He was hyped as the strongest since the beginning, was the general of the 12 and Eileen's superior, fought Gildart's(the guy known as FT's strongest wizard), was the last spriggan to be defeated and said he was the strongest himself. The difference in power is small though.

Cana <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< dragon irene

Gildart disagrees. When he broke fire
Erza disagrees when she cut aria magic
Natsu disagrees when he burnt zeref magic
False example. August cant copy any one who can over irene dues sema. I am not going to accept bs of august cant just copy aconologia while weak mages like laxus can over power irene deus sema.

August red form mp = human irene mp
Dragon irene would be alot more powerful

Yes serena durability >>>>> laxus durability > extremely injured erza durability (you missed this portrayal apparently )
Though i do agree augst durability is the weakest. Getting damaged by cana cards. Doubt they will even hurt kugura.

August get brused by a swipe! More like His strongest magic with ds will probably only scratch irene.

When sting out runs aconologia i will agree. Otherwise i will just put this bs catagory.

I dont remember august crashing cana. He didnt copy any jellal magic either. So no. And since he has not retained even one copy spell its rnough proof that he cant retain magic.
Basically the same reason you dont think lucy is a dragon slayer.
O not what manga protrays. Thr guy who think human irene could have any chance against dragon irene. Lol


Ds advantage is not great. Why do you love to ignore pof. ( just love how you can so accurately read protrayal)
You dont do this sh!t for red lightening.
So basically invel got tired that why base gray could beat him after even his ds couldnt.
Wahl also probably commit suicide because we already know he can tank laxus punches

Or do only laxus and gray and have right to become stronger mid fight

No you cant. Irene durabilty is no where near dragon irene durabilty. Even when faced with ds. Still a stupid claim.

The first time laxus used his ds. Natsu noticed it
Same with cobra.
And nothing was mentioned at all about august with ds

No you are not treating august and irene equally.
August is one shotting dragon irene. Is not treating them equally. Its just wanking. If you were treating them equally you wouldnt have belive that he had any chance of win in 1 2 3rd scenarios i provided. Yet only time you thought irene could win when august could only do no magic.



To prove dragon irene has now durability to ds. You used erza non pof hits.
Lets work on this.
Laxus normal hits did nothing to wahl. Yet his red lightening killed him. What happened here.
Same happened with erza last slash.
Normal lightening encased punches. Erza nornal slashes
Laxus pof hit. Erza pof hit plus ds
The last two hits of erza were far above her previous. Or are telling me you protrayal completly

Please give example of august retaining any magic. Not obscure one like heat based melt or encasing himself in magic to speed himself.
How fast is he when he tried to blitz cana and gildar . Was he faster than erza when she tried to blitz ajeel

 

[inactive lurker account]

I feel like the discussions have become rather repetitive and acrimonious, without addressing certain basic technical points of argumentation. So I'll list a few questions that people might need to consider carefully.

1) When can one say that absence of evidence is ipso facto evidence of absence? This seems crucial with regard to whether August is able to retain those spells he copies.
2) When can one say that someone has optimal mastery of one's presumed abilities? This seems crucial with regard to whether August has copied almost all forms of magic that he can copy.
3) To what extent can one extrapolate and generalize a particular set of acts done in a particular circumstance and moment? This seems crucial with regard to whether August can copy and negate magic from someone stronger than his strongest on-panel opponent.
4) To what extent do we deem the overall canonical on-panel presentation of the characters to be a sufficient picture of the characters as conceptualized? This seems crucial with regard to whether August has hidden spells and tricks that he simply did not show but may or may not have been hinted or implied.

5) Are we more interested in talking about possible worlds or story realms, textual elements and discursive structures, or reader responses? This seems crucial in whether this match is about August and Irene as based simply on chapter showings and portrayals plus a bit of genre-based hermeneutics that take into account what Fairy Tail is meant to be and how it is consumed by the fandom, or whether this match is about our own partial and partisan fan impressions and customizations of August and Irene, or whether this match is about careful hypothetical reconstructions and simulations of two elements in an partially depicted world, the other details of which we have to fill in as best we can at the risk of ending up talking about wildly different possible worlds.

There is no inconsistency in saying that one imagines and wishes either August or Irene to be superior and the eventual winner, while acknowledging that the text given to us is full of gaps and ambiguities and ambivalences such that either scenario can be argued for without certainty, and also noting that there are many possible models and scenarios based on the conditions one sets and the hypotheses one develops with respect to the world partially depicted in Fairy Tail.

I hope this helps clear up some issues.

 

[Seven777]

I do think august can hurt irene without ds. But she will hurt him much more. Cause of reducing august damage ability

Fine. What zeref has shown till now. He gets mid diff by irene.

Unfortunately he has not used one ds magic. So august is not a ds

Only one who might get one shotted here is august

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---

Cana <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< dragon irene

Gildart disagrees. When he broke fire
Erza disagrees when she cut aria magic
Natsu disagrees when he burnt zeref magic
False example. August cant copy any one who can over irene dues sema. I am not going to accept bs of august cant just copy aconologia while weak mages like laxus can over power irene deus sema.

August red form mp = human irene mp
Dragon irene would be alot more powerful

Yes serena durability >>>>> laxus durability > extremely injured erza durability (you missed this portrayal apparently )
Though i do agree augst durability is the weakest. Getting damaged by cana cards. Doubt they will even hurt kugura.

August get brused by a swipe! More like His strongest magic with ds will probably only scratch irene.

When sting out runs aconologia i will agree. Otherwise i will just put this bs catagory.

I dont remember august crashing cana. He didnt copy any jellal magic either. So no. And since he has not retained even one copy spell its rnough proof that he cant retain magic.
Basically the same reason you dont think lucy is a dragon slayer.
O not what manga protrays. Thr guy who think human irene could have any chance against dragon irene. Lol


Ds advantage is not great. Why do you love to ignore pof. ( just love how you can so accurately read protrayal)
You dont do this sh!t for red lightening.
So basically invel got tired that why base gray could beat him after even his ds couldnt.
Wahl also probably commit suicide because we already know he can tank laxus punches

Or do only laxus and gray and have right to become stronger mid fight

No you cant. Irene durabilty is no where near dragon irene durabilty. Even when faced with ds. Still a stupid claim.

The first time laxus used his ds. Natsu noticed it
Same with cobra.
And nothing was mentioned at all about august with ds

No you are not treating august and irene equally.
August is one shotting dragon irene. Is not treating them equally. Its just wanking. If you were treating them equally you wouldnt have belive that he had any chance of win in 1 2 3rd scenarios i provided. Yet only time you thought irene could win when august could only do no magic.



To prove dragon irene has now durability to ds. You used erza non pof hits.
Lets work on this.
Laxus normal hits did nothing to wahl. Yet his red lightening killed him. What happened here.
Same happened with erza last slash.
Normal lightening encased punches. Erza nornal slashes
Laxus pof hit. Erza pof hit plus ds
The last two hits of erza were far above her previous. Or are telling me you protrayal completly

Please give example of august retaining any magic. Not obscure one like heat based melt or encasing himself in magic to speed himself.
How fast is he when he tried to blitz cana and gildar . Was he faster than erza when she tried to blitz ajeel

Damn thats a long one, think this'll be my last comment for now. So i'll try to keep it short.

Busting Deus Sema doesnt mean you can do shit to dragon form, as stated by Eileen, no reason to believe it means you can do shit to copy/negation either.
August was barely even damaged by Kana's Cards combined with Gildart's attack, his durability is beyond everyone bar Zeref, Mavis and Dragon EIleen.
Sting outran a dragon leagues above him, that alone suggests August could outrun Eileen on foot since unlike Sting he's is Eileen equal.
Sting isnt outrunning the absolute strongest being in FT.
Oneshotting Eileen with DS advantage isnt wank, because a character far below August has already done it.
August was stated to copy magic, nowhere was it implied that he lost anything over time. His wide array of non-copied magic including Meteor confirms it.
August was faster than Erza when she blitzed Azir, because Gildarts is prob faster than Erza.

 

[Arjuna]

Even if Melt is a Fire DS Magic(Even though i am not 100% sure) will it do anything to Dragon Irene.Irene in her Dragon form has shown ability to breathe fire,so she may very well be a Fire Dragon.

 

[Seven777]

Even if Melt is a Fire DS Magic(Even though i am not 100% sure) will it do anything to Dragon Irene.Irene in her Dragon form has shown ability to breathe fire,so she may very well be a Fire Dragon.

Even if Melt is edible, the fact that he has it means he can copy DS magic. Which means he probably has access to God Serena's magic and 100% has access to Cobra's, since he fought and negated Cobra.

 

[Demon Hunter]

August can copy magic before he is even hit by it.

why do you think he took no damage when Cana used Fairy Glitter??? he already learned it and nullified it.

and why is this still going on lol.

if August has DS magic then he wins.

if not then he loses.

I'm gonna vote tie because I'm not biased.

 

[EmptySoul]

I honestly have no idea where August being a DS came from.
Can someone explain to me where ppl claim that Melt was a fire ds spell he copied off of Natsu got it from?
Natsu didnt even use a single spell in Augusts presence so how the fk did August copy his fire ds magic?
Melt is a simple heat based spell

It wasnt stated anywhere at all that August can copy DS magic cause if he could im sure Mashima wouldve mentioned it since DS magic is rather important to the plot and all

 

[Star Frost]

I honestly have no idea where August being a DS came from.
Can someone explain to me where ppl claim that Melt was a fire ds spell he copied off of Natsu got it from?
Natsu didnt even use a single spell in Augusts presence so how the fk did August copy his fire ds magic?
Melt is a simple heat based spell

It wasnt stated anywhere at all that August can copy DS magic cause if he could im sure Mashima wouldve mentioned it since DS magic is rather important to the plot and all

I guess it's an assumption some made and I don't think it's Natsu's Magic when he claimed it's a heat based move which may imply that it's not fire especially considering it don't even look like fire but a heat pillar of light and therefore show that's not Natsu's Magic.

 

[LaGOAT]

I honestly have no idea where August being a DS came from.
Can someone explain to me where ppl claim that Melt was a fire ds spell he copied off of Natsu got it from?
Natsu didnt even use a single spell in Augusts presence so how the fk did August copy his fire ds magic?
Melt is a simple heat based spell

It wasnt stated anywhere at all that August can copy DS magic cause if he could im sure Mashima wouldve mentioned it since DS magic is rather important to the plot and all

just like how anco couldn't sense Irene was a DS becuase of plot

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2017 ---

@sharkai nah at best it's a tie august can use ars magic if other option doesn't work. Irene isn't oneshotting august she couldn't oneshot erza

 

[EmptySoul]

just like how anco couldn't sense Irene was a DS because of plot

I dont know what ur trying to say but Irene was stated to be a DS whether acno sensed her or not and she also had a whole backstory abt that

August on the other hand,No panels,No statements,Nothing abt him being a DS
Clearly Mashima didnt and wasnt planning to make him one.

 

[LaGOAT]

I dont know what ur trying to say but Irene was stated to be a DS whether acno sensed her or not and she also had a whole backstory abt that

August on the other hand,No panels,No statements,Nothing abt him being a DS
Clearly Mashima didnt and wasnt planning to make him one.

What I'm trying to get at is DS is important to the manga but why couldn't anco sense that Irene was a DS? So anco wouldn't sense that august could use DS magic either buuuut I will agree since august didn't show it or becuase of plot but overall it's because plot that hiro didn't want anco to oneshot Irene early in the game