Final August vs Irene

[Invel > Zeref]

Most of the earlier arguments for August has been him having DS Magic. It's nice to see at least someone admits August having DS Magic would be classified as a made up feat considering he's never shown to use it or has confirmed he has it. As for copying her magic he wouldn't be able to do it if she casts from her staff. That's an advantage to Irene.

Another made up feat being used around here is the idea that dragon Irene is immune to non D.S. magic. This claim has no basis other then the fact that relatively weak characters like Tenrou FT and GMG Jura, Kagura and Lyon were unable to damage dragons. If Wendy/Erza can cut through Irene with only a little bit of power than August wins with or without Dragon Slayer magic. In a worse case scenario, he could use crash to disassemble her and destroy the pieces or use meteor+command T shrinking to destroy her from the inside. Furtherore, Zeref proved that non d.s. magic could effect dragons when he reverted Irene from her dragon form.

 

[SirSamuel016]

So we allow to give feats now? If that the case august has copy ds magic since he fought cobra. Cool u just made mater worse For Irene becuase a non ds aka erza was able to put damage on her human form so it means she isn't immune to magic so that would make easier for august will use use all crush magic or copy her magic do counter and destroy her august is a liven OP character. @Jko i didn't forgot about u I will come back to debunk ur arguments love debating with u

What's wrong with speculating on someone's magic? It's been done before so I don't see why it's a problem now. We've seen Wendy and Irene counter each other with same enchantments so it's very likely she can use those lower class enchantments Wendy uses like the speed, defense and attack enchantments to a much higher level. Again, it's not a human form, just an appearance. She still has the scales and durability of a dragon hence why Erza's sword didn't go straight through her head in the fight. She mightn't be immune to magic but she should still resist it decently well thanks to being a dragon.

 

[Enima]

this is assumption even Silver one-shotted Atlas Flame spirit so its really possible for non-Ds magic user to defeat Dragon.. this is like saying Acnologia without Dragon Salying magic is weaker than Irene...

August is the strongest character after Acnologia and even Laxus/Nuke is par with Dragons roar..

Melt--->Laxus/Nuke
FairyLaw/GrimoireLaw---->Dragon Attacks

and no one is stronger than August expect Acnologia... August is definitely apex in the world power (God tier character) and this level is powerful enough to even defeat Dragons..

agree or disagree

Silver didn't one shot Atlas flame, he one shotted atlas flame's spirit.

Well, Happy and Lucy survived melt, so I guess they can tank Dragon level attacks now.

Another made up feat being used around here is the idea that dragon Irene is immune to non D.S. magic. This claim has no basis other then the fact that relatively weak characters like Tenrou FT and GMG Jura, Kagura and Lyon were unable to damage dragons. If Wendy/Erza can cut through Irene with only a little bit of power than August wins with or without Dragon Slayer magic. In a worse case scenario, he could use crash to disassemble her and destroy the pieces or use meteor+command T shrinking to destroy her from the inside. Furtherore, Zeref proved that non d.s. magic could effect dragons when he reverted Irene from her dragon form.

Dragons are not Immune to non DS magic. But trying to hurt a Dragon without DS magic would be like trying to remove a screw without a screwdriver. It's possible to Damage a dragon using normal magic, but it would be extremely hard and ineffective. They created DS magic for a reason. Irene wasn't like "let's create this new type of magic to fight against dragons even though the other normal types of magic work perfectly well against Dragons"

Zeref's magic worked because Irene wasn't resisting it. Kinda like how August got stabbed with a normal knife.

 

[Star Frost]

Another made up feat being used around here is the idea that dragon Irene is immune to non D.S. magic. This claim has no basis other then the fact that relatively weak characters like Tenrou FT and GMG Jura, Kagura and Lyon were unable to damage dragons. If Wendy/Erza can cut through Irene with only a little bit of power than August wins with or without Dragon Slayer magic. In a worse case scenario, he could use crash to disassemble her and destroy the pieces or use meteor+command T shrinking to destroy her from the inside. Furtherore, Zeref proved that non d.s. magic could effect dragons when he reverted Irene from her dragon form.

That's because she is......or you can say more than likely can resist them at a high degreee due to her scales. This was stated and shown so many times which is the reason why Dragon Slaying Magic even exists which can put harm to dragons more effectively than many non DS Magic; hence the reason why Erza been enchanted with DSM by Wendy instead of attacking her with her non DSM meteor blitzing strength. August can be powerful as he like but he won't be hurting Irene that much without any DSM. As for Zeref reverting her to her human form, that's cause she didn't even try to resist.

 

[inactive lurker account]

Things would have been easier for us had Hiro taken the time to elaborate more on what August and Irene can do. The sad thing here is that Hiro really messed up big time with the magic king without giving a more fleshed out background, thus giving people enough alibis to downplay the guy and cut down his inadequately depicted reputation and portrayal. Irene on the other hand gets to ride on the perks of being a dragon and moreover was given more panel time, thus making her case appear more impressive. I simply want to reiterate that the author's decision to treat two supposed peers with utterly scandalous disparity shouldn't be taken against the more marginalized party, in this case August.

In any case, the more difficult matter is in asserting not just what he can copy, but what he has already copied. We are only told via rumors plus a self-attestation that he has mastered 'all sorts' of magic, but how many categories of caster magic would people be willing to assume that he already has? This I believe is one crucial indicator as to whether one overestimates or underestimates August and his magecraft.

A bit off-topic, but it seems their epithets say something about how they are viewed in the empire. Irene, the scarlet despair, seems to be dreaded not just for her power but also for the vicious side of her character. For his part, August the calamity is seen with a mixture of fear and awe, perhaps as a walking bringer of disaster to whoever incurs his wrath. It may be extrapolated that in terms of fighting style, Irene would be more likely to resort to cruel and unusual gimmicks with her enchantments, whereas August prefers to simply cancel and replicate enemy spells unless he is cornered or enraged.

 

[Ebony Maw]

For the record, I'm still undecided, both sides are bringing up good arguments. However...

Mini conversations don't make a time frame since talking in manga has always been wacky. We saw the POV of the Meteor then we saw Erza's and co's perspective. If the fodder only perceive the sight of a shooting star that means they have no real idea what the object was. No one even consider to panic or run away bcs they weren't fast enough to identify the object. Only Erza knew it was an advance version of Jellal's magic as she was the only one fast enough to react.

In atmosphere Deus Sema is just as fast as out atmosphere Deus Sema. There was no slow down in re-entry. Her magic would've still kept applying the pressure as she needed to pin point the exact location to drop the Meteor. It makes no sense to let go of a spell and let it come down by itself. The spell is an enhanced meteor and meteors get their power from the velocity it's going at. She had no reason to let gravity hinder the velocity of that attack and we see the attack is moving the same speed. Meteors do not even reach the melting point of rock upon reentry yet Irene's meteor was vaporizing the entire time (even upon reentry). The Earth's atmosphere wouldn't impact the velocity that meteor was hurled at in the first place. There would be huge sonic booms if the Meteor slow down that suddenly.

I get that mini-convo's can be inconsistent but there's a big problem in assuming Deus Sema didn't slow down: the speed of Deus Sema would make no sense. Think about it, if Deus Sema really retained it's initial speed, then how did anyone manage to react to it? They couldn't have, meaning it must have slowed down. I really don't get how this is a bigger assumption than saying the mini-convo was inconsistent, because if Deus Sema really was that fast in atmosphere it should have smashed into the battlefield pretty much instantly.

You could pretty much sum it up like this: what makes more sense, Deus Sema slowing down upon atmospheric entry, or Erza managing to intercept a meteor that was traveling fast enough to pass planets and enter Earthland's atmosphere within seconds?

August got blitzed by Cana's Cards. I can throw out PIS low showings as well.

How was that a PIS low showing? I was even fair about it and mentioned that she got blindsided. My point was that if DF Wendy can blitz her, then Meteor August should be able to as well. Again though, with that being said, my point about Meteor is that he can use it to evade attacks and confuse her. Especially since Meteor August should be faster than Meteor Jellal.

Also, that lowball about Cana's cards is a lowball because August has already been shown to be able to dodge them with ease:

Spoiler

Keep in mind that August dodged those cards despite being blindsided by them. He even dodged them a second time later:

Spoiler

He goes on to dodge them a third time:

Spoiler

Also, even when August got hit by Cana's cards, it was because he had only just escaped Gildarts's grapple:

Spoiler

So yeah, he was never tagged by Cana's cards when he had the chance to dodge them, even when she tried to blindside him.

Irene did not care therefore she was not utilizing her full power.

Fair enough, but there's a massive difference between Erza and Wendy and August.

Just like Acnologia who got tagged by Tenrou FT characters, or couldn't catch a ship for multiple chapters. A Dragon's speed depends on the level of seriousness they are using which Irene thought the girls of nothing more than nuisances.

Errrr... reaction ≠ speed. And Acno getting tagged by Tenrou FT was down to a combination of things, including his large size. On the other hand, Irene was in human when DF Wendy blitzed her. She may not have been serious, but what happened happened, and Meteor August should be far faster than DF Wendy. But as I've mentioned, August being able to blitz isn't the point, it just gives him an easy way to avoid Dragon Claw attacks.

Irene stomped the entirety of Sabertooth, which is way more impressive than stomping 3 featless characters who were below Tenrou level opponents a year ago and Jellal.

Dude, stop with the CS downplay.

Irene herself said that CS were were going to be troublesome in the North. Three "below Tenrou characters" would be outdated AF and would get stomped the second they faced a Spriggan Historia, let alone an actual Spriggan. Irene wouldn't consider them troublesome if they were that outdated.

Hell, even if we go with your CS downplay, August still stomped CS and Jellal. As much as I love Sabertooth (RIP old name) the best mage they have their is Base Sting. He wasn't even S12 level prior to obtaining WSDM. In comparison, Jellal one-shotted a Spriggan with a mid-tier Heavenly Body Magic spell.

Also, where are you getting Irene solo'ing Sabertooth from? The battle up North was off-paneled, we have no idea what happened. If we're sticking to feats only, we shouldn't attribute the victory in the North solely to her.

I guess I'll stick to feats so she could just double her own stats via Enchantments.

When did Irene enchant herself? Genuine question, I can't remember her doing that.

 

[Kiki]

Tbt I am disappointed why August ran out of MP for no apparent reason when casting Ars Magia. I mean, it was already some days after he (along with Serena and Jacob) conquered Bosco. Jacob was headed to Magnolia alone, while August was doing nothing somewhere. After Universe One was cast, he was engaged in two fights: vs CS and vs Gildarts and Cana. Was fighting them that exhausting?

Meanwhile, it turned out that Universe One was being maintained by Irene, and while she's doing that, she extracted Fairy Heart, enchanted one million army, enchanted Neinhart, and fighting Erza&Wendy.

cmiiw

 

[inactive lurker account]

Tbt I am disappointed why August ran out of MP for no apparent reason when casting Ars Magia. I mean, it was already some days after he (along with Serena and Jacob) conquered Bosco. Jacob was headed to Magnolia alone, while August was doing nothing somewhere. After Universe One was cast, he was engaged in two fights: vs CS and vs Gildarts and Cana. Was fighting them that exhausting?

Meanwhile, it turned out that Universe One was being maintained by Irene, and while she's doing that, she extracted Fairy Heart, enchanted one million army, enchanted Neinhart, and fighting Erza&Wendy.

cmiiw

Did he really run out of magic power though? I thought that was just Mavis' interpretation as to why August's suicide spell suddenly stopped. It would really be weird if that is the case, since he's said to have immense magic power. I blame Hiro for setting up vague or ambiguous moments that give us excuses to downplay August, it's getting to the point where I'm starting to suspect if Hiro deliberately ruined his character to make some hidden subversive point...

 

[Star Frost]

Tbt I am disappointed why August ran out of MP for no apparent reason when casting Ars Magia. I mean, it was already some days after he (along with Serena and Jacob) conquered Bosco. Jacob was headed to Magnolia alone, while August was doing nothing somewhere. After Universe One was cast, he was engaged in two fights: vs CS and vs Gildarts and Cana. Was fighting them that exhausting?

Meanwhile, it turned out that Universe One was being maintained by Irene, and while she's doing that, she extracted Fairy Heart, enchanted one million army, enchanted Neinhart, and fighting Erza&Wendy.

cmiiw

He didn't ran out of MP, he just stopped the spell from killing everyone due to seeing Mavis being affected which got him to commit suicide.

 

[inactive lurker account]

Let me think of an interesting scenario. Assuming that enchantment is classifiable as either caster or holder, what sort of item can Irene in dragon form wield to channel her master-level enchantments so that they won't be copied by August? Can her limbs or tail hold on to a large staff, for instance, or does she have to enchant some natural feature and turn it into a remote-controlled wand by which she'd channel her other enchantments?

 

[Jko]

For the record, I'm still undecided, both sides are bringing up good arguments. However...

I get that mini-convo's can be inconsistent but there's a big problem in assuming Deus Sema didn't slow down: the speed of Deus Sema would make no sense. Think about it, if Deus Sema really retained it's initial speed, then how did anyone manage to react to it? They couldn't have, meaning it must have slowed down. I really don't get how this is a bigger assumption than saying the mini-convo was inconsistent, because if Deus Sema really was that fast in atmosphere it should have smashed into the battlefield pretty much instantly. You could pretty much sum it up like this: what makes more sense, Deus Sema slowing down upon atmospheric entry, or Erza managing to intercept a meteor that was traveling fast enough to pass planets and enter Earthland's atmosphere within seconds?

Only Erza reacted to the Meteor. No one else did. That meteor was going to destroy an entire battlefield that included multiple mountains in it. The radius of the spell was going to be island+ lowball. Regular meteors impact radius are nowhere near that level of destruction. Irene's meteor had to retain its speed in order to be that destructive. Mini convo? Literally a dude just commented on a shooting star. That's not a conversation. Like I said the Meteor did not loose speed. There would be sonic booms if the Meteor speed dropped drastically. Erza intercepted the meteor. She didn't have to be super fast to catch a meteor that was heading towards her. And Erza is also a fast character so she would be able to react to that level of speed.

How was that a PIS low showing? I was even fair about it and mentioned that she got blindsided. My point was that if DF Wendy can blitz her, then Meteor August should be able to as well. Again though, with that being said, my point about Meteor is that he can use it to evade attacks and confuse her. Especially since Meteor August should be faster than Meteor Jellal.

Also, that lowball about Cana's cards is a lowball because August has already been shown to be able to dodge them with ease:

Spoiler

Keep in mind that August dodged those cards despite being blindsided by them. He even dodged them a second time later:

Spoiler

He goes on to dodge them a third time:

Spoiler

Also, even when August got hit by Cana's cards, it was because he had only just escaped Gildarts's grapple:

Spoiler

So yeah, he was never tagged by Cana's cards when he had the chance to dodge them, even when she tried to blindside him.

Bcs Irene has already shown to dodge Erza who had double stats with ease.

Spoiler

She dodged and attack from Acno as well. So it's double standards to use August feats to say he can dodge Cana's Cards despite being tagged yet you completely disregard Irene's feats that show her clown Erza in speed, and dodge Acno's attacks.

Gildarts grabbed August's staff not August so he had an easy opportunity to dodge those cards. Gild didn't hinder his movements in the slightest.

Fair enough, but there's a massive difference between Erza and Wendy and August.

There's a massive difference between Gild and Cana, and Irene.

Errrr... reaction ≠ speed. And Acno getting tagged by Tenrou FT was down to a combination of things, including his large size. On the other hand, Irene was in human when DF Wendy blitzed her. She may not have been serious, but what happened happened, and Meteor August should be far faster than DF Wendy. But as I've mentioned, August being able to blitz isn't the point, it just gives him an easy way to avoid Dragon Claw attacks.

Wrong. Acno let them hit him. Acno gets scaled to Dragons that can cross a super continent within seconds. Size is nothing as his speed and reaction craps on any Tenrou characters. Dragon Irene should be far faster than Cana's Cards as well.

Dude, stop with the CS downplay.

Irene herself said that CS were were going to be troublesome in the North. Three "below Tenrou characters" would be outdated AF and would get stomped the second they faced a Spriggan Historia, let alone an actual Spriggan. Irene wouldn't consider them troublesome if they were that outdated.

Hell, even if we go with your CS downplay, August still stomped CS and Jellal. As much as I love Sabertooth (RIP old name) the best mage they have their is Base Sting. He wasn't even S12 level prior to obtaining WSDM. In comparison, Jellal one-shotted a Spriggan with a mid-tier Heavenly Body Magic spell.

How the hell am I downplaying featless character?

They were so troublesome that Irene sent Heine and Juliet after them lol. Her statement was already contradicted by her actions. If they were so troublesome why didn't she send a S12 after them rather than her two lackeys?

Jellal is not better than all of Sabertooth. Honestly wondering how OS are so over hype to be honest. Meredy literally got her butt whooped by Zancrow in this arc and she had way more time to train than them. She was also stronger than them before the timeskip as well so add a seven year training gap she should've been exponentially stronger than them. So if she is still getting whooped by Tenrou lvl opponents I don't see OS having any exponential increase in their power either. They have shown anything in this arc to say they have gotten that powerful either.

Also, where are you getting Irene solo'ing Sabertooth from? The battle up North was off-paneled, we have no idea what happened. If we're sticking to feats only, we shouldn't attribute the victory in the North solely to her.

Sting, and Rogue never fought Bradman (while he was alive). We know this bcs Bradman was surprised by a Levy using Holy magic and Rogue's shadows affecting him. Minerva also show no insight on his power. Yukino, Rogue, and Sting didn't have the slightest flue who Larcade was. Considering the main core of Sabertooth were fighting within each others vicinity I doubt Orga, Minerva, or Rufus fought them either as Sting, Rogue, and Yukino would've noticed them fighting them. That means Irene was the one who soloed Sabertooth. Cruxification was kind of her thing as well.

Also you say stick to feats yet you're trying to buff OS' power like they did something this arc to say they were more powerful than they were in the OS arc?

When did Irene enchant herself? Genuine question, I can't remember her doing that.

She enchanted her eyes twice before and she's a master enchanter which means she would be able to pull enchants that an average enchanter like Wendy could pull. She also shown to know Deus spells as well which are the buff spells.

 

[Raven]

Irene is really weak against Dragon slaying magic but August don't have the means to use this magic or copy them however i can believe he can still negate the attacks of Irene. He is the general of the spriggans because he is simply the strongest.

I won't vote for him because he don't deserve to be in the finals. Natsu should have won he literally defeated a god and burned his magic, There is no reason to believe that Natsu can't give August the same treatment. It doesn't matter anyway Natsu is the strongest in the manga ( Canon ).

 

[Kiki]

Did he really run out of magic power though? I thought that was just Mavis' interpretation as to why August's suicide spell suddenly stopped. It would really be weird if that is the case, since he's said to have immense magic power. I blame Hiro for setting up vague or ambiguous moments that give us excuses to downplay August, it's getting to the point where I'm starting to suspect if Hiro deliberately ruined his character to make some hidden subversive point...

He didn't ran out of MP, he just stopped the spell from killing everyone due to seeing Mavis being affected which got him to commit suicide.

Idk, but prior to seeing Mavis, August already said Ars Magia is a suicidal spell. See Brandish's post

 

[inactive lurker account]

Idk, but prior to seeing Mavis, August already said Ars Magia is a suicidal spell. See Brandish's post

The way I interpret the mechanisms of Ars Magia is, it involves the irrevocable sacrifice of the caster, and that it takes time for the spell to cover the intended scope unless the spell is abruptly withdrawn. What we don't know is how much minimum magic power is required to even activate the spell... on that note, it's rather fascinating how he was even able to learn that spell. Could Zeref have taught it to him, but then since Zeref is immortal how can he sacrifice himself? In any case it's rather disappointing that he resorted to that move at the end, when he could have just ignored Gildarts and Cana, or use some random spell just to take them down without necessarily taking them out permanently.

The other consequence of that suicide spell is that we'll never get to know how much physical and magical damage August can take before he can be taken down. Irene at least has dragon slayer magic as a natural weakness, but in August's case we can only either downplay the guy by appealing to his human physical constitution, or optimize him by appealing to how much of an anomaly he is. Our only indirect indicator is his fearful expression when Acnologia killed God Serena...

Oh, and I should point out in addition that two of August's 'spectacular' spells, Ars Magia and the generic 'melt' heat spell, were horribly interrupted before they can achieve their full effect

 

[Reebi]

@Reebi SOLID POINT.
If this Deus Sema theory is correct, August can't negate it.
To be honest Deus Sema is bad imo, since even Erza with broken bones could destroy it. But it would require August to actually do something to dodge or destroy it, leaving Irene time to try and hit him with a claw swipe in dragon form.

Hum, Irene won't have an army or a sword at her disposal. I'm assuming they are only two in the tournament, with no army around, and i don't think Irene starts with a sword nearby or with her.
I don't think a sword would help anyway, August can use Midnight's thingy.

If she can create warriors from swords that Mira had trouble with, I'm sure she can enchant some rocks into soldiers.

 

[inactive lurker account]

How about we try to envision their match-up not just as a duel between master mages, but also as a military battle, with August and Irene as 'generals', and their spells and enchantments as 'soldiers'? It would be way cooler if instead of just unleashing brute magic force, they also try to use tactics and strategies, stratagems and ruses, in order to outwit one another...

The crucial question to be answered in this scenario is which 'army' has greater maneuverability, the way Irene can manipulate her enchantments, or the way August can reload and switch his arsenal of spells, assuming that he doesn't just copy enchantment and we'd see both of them conjure up enchanted soldiers and play an RTS game out of it, haha

Making this even more amusing is if both decide to engage in staff melee combat while simulataneously directing their 'troops' of spells and enchantments against one another. They're so versatile in their own right, they don't even need to kill one another at this point, a symbolic 'checkmate' would suffice, if say one runs out of magic power before the other

ADDENDUM: I just want to point out that this exhibition scenario that I'm proposing would look more like a war than pretty much the entire final arc

 

[BluePegasus]

At this point it would be such a mess if Irene actually ends up winning this..

I mean come on, how many more proof do you guys want to accept that August is the strongest mage out there? There's even a chapter all about him called 'The Strongest Wizard', literally. Aside of that big source of evidence, August's magic power alone has shown to affect nature on a huge scale, something Irene never managed to pull off.

Spoiler

Being a High Enchanter truly is impressive, I won't deny that, but in the end Enchantment is still a Caster Magic like Crash which means August can master and nullify it. Irene's atmospheric enchantments, including Deus Sema, will factually do nothing against him. The only thing that can challenge August here is her dragon form, yet Irene has shown to be the weakest dragon in the whole Fairy Tail universe.

Now all of you can say things like "August won't be able to damage her without Dragon Slayer Magic" which is 1). Proven wrong by Silver affecting residual dragon power with Ice Devil Slayer Magic and 2). Sheer sophism because August is logically able to use eight types of Dragon Slayer Magic which are, obviously, God Serena's. There are many ways to clarify that:
- It's explicitly stated that Copy Magic works on every form of Caster Magic out there, and Dragon Slayer Magic has been referred to a Caster-Type Lost Magic since the beginning of the series and;
- August literally watched God Serena's whole spell diversity show-off against the Gods Of Ishgar back the other day, and seemed to be more than familiar with his capabilities.

Spoiler

So can we conclude that August is capable of using Dragon Slayer Magic? Uh, yeah, it's rather obvious. He's capable of using at least 3 different types of it.

For now, is there anybody out there that can give some solid arguments why God Serena's spells are less powerful than a with some Dragon Slayer Magic-enchanted sword? I wonder.

 

[Enima]

Aside of that big source of evidence, August's magic power alone has shown to affect nature on a huge scale, something Irene never managed to pull off.

Yeah, universe one only affected a single continent. Nothing big.....

 

[BluePegasus]

Yeah, universe one only affected a single continent. Nothing big.....

That's not someone's "magic power" dude, that's a spell.

 

[Enima]

That's not someone's "magic power" dude, that's a spell.

Isn't August casting a spell as well?. I don't think MP affects stuff unless it's cast as a spell. Even Acnologia's MP didn't really trigger anything.