Discussion Superior Devil Fruits: things that don't make sense

[Deleted member 169696]

Superior Devil Fruits​

Lately I've been noticing that nearly everyone on this forum seems to misunderstand certain things in regards to how different phenomenons correlate with each other. So I'd like to give my humble elaboration on that. Remember Oda mentioning the superior DF concept?

Some fruits are naturally more powerful than their fruit 'siblings'. I wouldn't find this statement absurd (to an extent), if Oda hadn't explicitly said which fruits are superior. And he says exactly, that Magma Magma Fruit, for instance, is stronger than Flare Flare Fruit. According to Akainu himself, because magma burns hotter! Personally, I find that this is a ridiculously erroneous claim. Why?

1. Even if we assume that magma is hotter than fire, then by burning fire (by which I mean applying force to change the state of a substance that you burn) you will only end up creating plasma or something along the lines. By what logic should a hotter substance cancel the very idea of fire in a way that it makes a Logia user such as Ace tangible? If anything it should be Haki! Or, perhaps...

2. One plausible explanation that I can think of right now, is that magma in and of itself is a matter that would naturally absorb fire. The more fire you apply to magma – the hotter it gets. Hence – superiority.

3. But technically speaking, by no means magma is hotter than fire. I suppose, that an ultra rare Logia fruit should be somewhat strong. So how hot is Ace's/Sabo's fire? Can it, say, melt metal? I believe so. We've seen some characters reaching these feats: Akainu, Kuma. If Akainu's magma can melt metal, then so can Ace's/Sabo's fire.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

Temperatures of most magmas are in the range 700 °C to 1300 °C (or 1300 °F to 2400 °F), but very rare carbonatite magmas may be as cool as 600 °C, and komatiite magmas may have been as hot as 1600 °C.

Whereas fire can reach temperatures up to 3,300 °C (5972 °F) or in more common conditions 1,200–1,700 °C (2192-3092 °F) which is quite comparable to the heat that magma produces and potentially even hotter.

Next up is Ton Ton Fruit vs Kilo Kilo fruit. And again, I have to disagree with Oda. I don't exactly understand how more weight grants superiority. When it comes to these two fruits, I see it this way. More weight = more attack power. Less weight = more defence.

Spoiler

A real life example would be when you try punching a sheet of paper... Or a hair! These fruits don't change the properties of users' bodies in a way that the owners get physically more durable/stronger or something, but they merely grant the ability to alter the weight of a body. At the end of the day it all comes down to user's skill and power. Having a weight of as little as 1 kilo you can move at immense speeds, it will also boost your agility, I reckon.

Having said that, I agree that Ice Ice Fruit is indeed more powerful and versatile than Snow Snow Fruit. And perhaps Baby 5's ability is more profound as compared to Mr. 1's ability, though here I can argue that Mr. 1 would come on top in terms of strength, durability and firmness of his steel body. Plus it has been proven many times that in One Piece world swords are often deemed to be stronger than bullets/bombs etc.

Moving on to the next issue. Magma vs Ice. Akainu vs Aokiji.


Yes, we have totally witnessed that Akainu's magma can indeed melt Aokiji's ice. So these two powers were portrayed as more or less equal to one another. However, just to make things more clear as to how such natural phenomenons actually behave, when faced off in a "battle", I'd like to show you a simple experiment:


See? In reality, magma is absolutely inferior to ice. And we're talking about an even less cold ice than Aokiji's. Your thoughts?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

And he says exactly, that Magma Magma Fruit, for instance, is stronger than Flare Flare Fruit. According to Akainu himself, because magma burns hotter! Personally, I find that this is a ridiculously erroneous claim. Why?

I used to think this way, but there's something wrong. Akainu never stated that his Magma was hotter than Ace's Fire, what Akainu said is that his Magma is superior.

Is it because Magma is hotter? It's to do with the properties of Magma and the Properties of Fire.

Fire is a plasma that can be put out if smothered or cut off from its supply of oxygen. Fire only burns in the presence of oxygen. If you put water on fire, or sand, or something with a water like consistency like mud which Magma is similar too, it will cut off the oxygen supply and render Ace's body back to being normal flesh like Crocodile is when touched by water/blood.

Once Ace's body is back to normal, being that Magma is also hot, Ace is burnt when he's in his normal state. So, it's not a case of burning hotter, but Magma have the exact properties necessary to counter fire and then burn Ace right after his flames are smothered out.

Yes, we have totally witnessed that Akainu's magma can indeed melt Aokiji's ice. So these two powers were portrayed as more or less equal to one another. However, just to make things more clear as to how such natural phenomenons actually behave, when faced off in a "battle", I'd like to show you a simple experiment:

In that experiment, there's 1 flaw. Both the Lava and Ice can't increase their capacities to burn or freeze while Aokiji and Akainu can.

If you look at Akainu, he has scars from being frost bitten meaning he was frozen to the point that his flesh burnt and Aokiji also got burnt too. Their abilities are completely antagonistic. They can naturally hurt each other. Aokiji's ice can freeze magma while Akainu's magma can melt ice too which is why it was stated that they were evenly matched. Neither are superior to the other.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

I used to think this way, but there's something wrong. Akainu never stated that his Magma was hotter than Ace's Fire, what Akainu said is that his Magma is superior.

Is it because Magma is hotter? It's to do with the properties of Magma and the Properties of Fire.

Thank you for your detailed reply. He says it here: "My magma burns even fire". He doesn't mention the properties of magma or anything, just plainly stating "burns even fire". Which lead me to the assumption I made.

Fire is a plasma that can be put out if smothered or cut off from its supply of oxygen. Fire only burns in the presence of oxygen. If you put water on fire, or sand, or something with a water like consistency like mud which Magma is similar too, it will cut off the oxygen supply and render Ace's body back to being normal flesh like Crocodile is when touched by water/blood.

However, Sabo's Fire Fist goes underwater and somehow works, disregarding the lack of oxygen. Though, this example is kinda tricky, because we only see his attack piercing through the layer of water in the anime, but it is not quite obvious in the manga.

Once Ace's body is back to normal, being that Magma is also hot, Ace is burnt when he's in his normal state. So, it's not a case of burning hotter, but Magma have the exact properties necessary to counter fire and then burn Ace right after his flames are smothered out.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm trying to say, it's not the matter of which fruit produces more heat, but the matter of magma being able to absorb fire. But according to Akainu it's not necessarily how he himself sees it. He could have said "magma beats fire", but instead he tells Ace that his magma "can even burn fire". There's something off about this wording, in my opinion.

In that experiment, there's 1 flaw. Both the Lava and Ice can't increase their capacities to burn or freeze while Aokiji and Akainu can.

If you look at Akainu, he has scars from being frost bitten meaning he was frozen to the point that his flesh burnt and Aokiji also got burnt too. Their abilities are completely antagonistic. They can naturally hurt each other. Aokiji's ice can freeze magma while Akainu's magma can melt ice too which is why it was stated that they were evenly matched. Neither are superior to the other.

I totally get it that it works in One Piece. You're right about the quantities/capacities, but still we don't observe the 'bubble effect' that was showcased in the experiment. From what I could see and learn, magma still loses to ice in real life.

And just in case, I'm not complaining, just pointing out some contradictions.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Thank you for your detailed reply. He says it here: "My magma burns even fire". He doesn't mention the properties of magma or anything, just plainly stating "burns even fire". Which lead me to the assumption I made.

Yes but that translation you're using is Mangapanda/Mangareader which is the worst translation. Same people who got bounties wrong and made it look like King Riku was about to marry his grand-daughter. They're not the official translation, this is the official translation from the Viz.

Official is reliable, Mangareader isn't.

However, Sabo's Fire Fist goes underwater and somehow works, disregarding the lack of oxygen. Though, this example is kinda tricky, because we only see his attack piercing through the layer of water in the anime, but it is not quite obvious in the manga.

Not really, if the sun got near water too, it'd probably heat up the water to the point of evaporation, that's all that happens.

Also, unlike this scenario, it's not regarding contact with the body of Sabo, but his flame heating up the water; different context and scenarios. If Sabo had water thrown at him from a Fishman, it'd probably affect him except he evaporated it before it reached him.

Mud or Magma is thick, it smothers fire much more effectively than water. Water douses fire; Mud smothers.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm trying to say, it's not the matter of which fruit produces more heat, but the matter of magma being able to absorb fire. But according to Akainu it's not necessarily how he himself sees it. He could have said "magma beats fire", but instead he tells Ace that his magma "can even burn fire". There's something off about this wording, in my opinion.

That's a bad translation, Mangareader gets so much wrong in translation which is why the VIZ official translation is far more reliable.

I totally get it that it works in One Piece. You're right about the quantities/capacities, but still we don't observe the 'bubble effect' that was showcased in the experiment. From what I could see and learn, magma still loses to ice in real life.

But we never even see them fight? Bubble or not, it's still consistent, I doubt Oda will draw every little detail, but he could. It won't still change the fact that Aokiji was able to get Akainu frost bitten meaning his Magma was Frozen while Aokiji Ice's is melted and thus led to him being burnt. Their abilities are evenly matched.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Yes but that translation you're using is Mangapanda/Mangareader which is the worst translation. Same people who got bounties wrong and made it look like King Riku was about to marry his grand-daughter. They're not the official translation, this is the official translation from the Viz.

Official is reliable, Mangareader isn't.

With all due respect, but in original Japanese release Akainu utilizes the word 焼き (YAKI. Verb stem... plus some grammar form that I couldn't recognize) which stands for grill/bake.

Not really, if the sun got near water too, it'd probably heat up the water to the point of evaporation, that's all that happens.

Also, unlike this scenario, it's not regarding contact with the body of Sabo, but his flame heating up the water; different context and scenarios. If Sabo had water thrown at him from a Fishman, it'd probably affect him except he evaporated it before it reached him.

To be completely fair the whole 'fire doesn't extinguish underwater' thing in OP is ridiculous, but what can you do... Still it contradicts your argument that fire requires oxygen: not in One Piece.

Mud or Magma is thick, it smothers fire much more effectively than water. Water douses fire; Mud smothers.

Erm, I kinda said that already, you don't have to explain.

But we never even see them fight? Bubble or not, it's still consistent, I doubt Oda will draw every little detail, but he could. It won't still change the fact that Aokiji was able to get Akainu frost bitten meaning his Magma was Frozen while Aokiji Ice's is melted and thus led to him being burnt. Their abilities are evenly matched.

Seriously, why are you acting as if we are having an argument? I'm not opposing your opinion. I said that I agree with how things are established in One Piece verse. At least in regards to this particular case. It's just that people often take the example with Akainu and Aokiji at face value while trying to apply real life logic, whereas in real life things won't work the same way. That is all I wanted to convey.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

With all due respect, but in original Japanese release Akainu utilizes the word 焼き (YAKI. Verb stem... plus some grammar form that I couldn't recognize) which stands for grill/bake.

Well, if you can get that translated, it would be great. Still, it won't change the fact that Magma is thick and can smother Fire, not a temperature issue. That's the reason it's superior.

o be completely fair the whole 'fire doesn't extinguish underwater' thing in OP is ridiculous, but what can you do... Still it contradicts your argument that fire requires oxygen: not in One Piece.

Not really, it's more ridiculous that Magma is superior due to temperature. What difference would fire burning at 1000 degrees have against one burning at 900, nothing. It's not like Fire can hurt Fire. Only thing that can be done is smother Fire.

And it's not under water, the Fire came from above. Clearly evaporated the water.

It's not all ridiculous or contradictory. It's no different from the sun evaporating a puddle of water, however, in this case, this explosive fire is exaggerated to having that much kinetic energy and thermal energy to pull off such a feat. Hell, Ace walked into Drum Kingdom and it stopped snowing while he was there, his flames are that hot.

Erm, I kinda said that already, you don't have to explain.

Didn't notice. You said this in your OP:

2. One plausible explanation that I can think of right now, is that magma in and of itself is a matter that would naturally absorb fire. The more fire you apply to magma – the hotter it gets. Hence – superiority.

That has nothing to do with smothering, that's a completely different thing you're stating here. Smothering has nothing to do with temperature.

Seriously, why are you acting as if we are having an argument? I'm not opposing your opinion. I said that I agree with how things are established in One Piece verse. At least in regards to this particular case. It's just that people often take the example with Akainu and Aokiji at face value while trying to apply real life logic, whereas in real life things won't work the same way. That is all I wanted to convey.

I am not sure why you think it's an argument, that's your perception. I'm merely stating what I disagree with you, is anything wrong with that?

Also, real life logic does have application where the thing is relevant or related.

1. Fire burns is real life logic.
2. Electricity electrocutes.
3. Ice Freezes.

Those are scientifically accurate things relevant in real life. Only thing Oda does is exaggerates these effects.

This is a real thing that occurs in real life. It's scientifically accurate.

Another thing scientifically accurate. It's a condition called Carotenemia; this occurs when someone eats an excessive diet of foods with "Beta Carotene" and it turns the skin orange. Can wiki it if you want.

Another thing scientifically accurate. He can increase the range of his electrical frequencies to hear things out of normal range, humans are limited to 20Hz to 20Hkz; Enel increases his range to hear things outside normal range. That's another thing that's consistent with Electricity.

So, yes, Oda does make use of sound and accurate scientific knowledge where it's applicable and it's not just random. That's not to say he doesn't exaggerate things like Blackbeard creating a Black-hole the size of an entire country which should have destroyed the world as it'd do in reality - in essence, he nerfed it. And that's also not to say the world of OP is not magical, but where science can be applied to things that are established with scientific theory and application, he makes use of it.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Well, if you can get that translated, it would be great. Still, it won't change the fact that Magma is thick and can smother Fire, not a temperature issue. That's the reason it's superior.

Imagine this. Flame that has enough heat to melt a rock, leads to rock turning into lava. If you continie to increase the temperature of the flame, then lava will simply get thiner. But fire won't nullify lava whatsoever. This is immensely beneficial to Akainu. I don't get it why you find this logic false. What is smothering exactly then? Shouldn't there be a source to smother, above everything else? Where is Ace's source of fire? It is just fire. He can summon as much fire as he wants. He represents the element. Absorbtion describes it better here, imo.

Not really, it's more ridiculous that Magma is superior due to temperature. What difference would fire burning at 1000 degrees have against one burning at 900, nothing. It's not like Fire can hurt Fire.

Exactly, it is ridiculous. But Akainu says so nonetheless. Hence, my confusion.

And it's not under water, the Fire came from above. Clearly evaporated the water.

It's not all ridiculous or contradictory. It's no different from the sun evaporating a puddle of water, however, in this case, this explosive fire is exaggerated to having that much kinetic energy and thermal energy to pull off such a feat. Hell, Ace walked into Drum Kingdom and it stopped snowing while he was there, his flames are that hot.

Well, Luffy's Red Hawk works just fine even beneath the surface of the ocean. And judging from the panel you can't really tell if the water in the pool was evaporated. It it not clear. To me, at least.

I am not sure why you think it's an argument, that's your perception. I'm merely stating what I disagree with you, is anything wrong with that?

My perception revolves around the observation that you tend to state things that are quite similar to what I am saying, while acting as if your statements are very different. I might be wrong.

Also, real life logic does have application where the thing is relevant or related.

Mate, my point was very simple. When you take the exact same amount of ice and lava, the probability of magma cooling before ice melts is very high.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Imagine this. Flame that has enough heat to melt a rock, leads to rock turning into lava. If you continie to increase the temperature of the flame, then lava will simply get thiner. But fire won't nullify lava whatsoever. This is immensely beneficial to Akainu. I don't get it why you find this logic false. What is smothering exactly then? Shouldn't there be a source to smother, above everything else? Where is Ace's source of fire? It is just fire. He can summon as much fire as he wants. He represents the element. Absorbtion describes it better here, imo.

That doesn't work.

Smother means to starve off oxygen.

Put a thick liquid over fire, the fire will stop burning.

Absorption is not at all the case here.

Ace is fire, and if you remove his ability to burn, he's no different to Crocodile when he's attacked with water, no longer a sandman but a someone whose body becomes tangible.

Exactly, it is ridiculous. But Akainu says so nonetheless. Hence, my confusion.

Well, when you find an accurate translation.

Until then, the official simply says superior to Fire, not that it burns Fire. Even if it says, it might say Magma can burn a Fire-man as opposed to Fire.

It's still to do with smothering.

Well, Luffy's Red Hawk works just fine even beneath the surface of the ocean. And judging from the panel you can't really tell if the water in the pool was evaporated. It it not clear. To me, at least.

Different process. Fire can appear under water if the energy to produce it is powerful, it just won't last long, it would be transient.

And again, the fire from Sabo came from above and evaporated the water and a hole was also made inside of the Colosseum which is where the Under-Ground Port..

Spoiler

So, yes, the water was indeed evaporated and a hole made on the foundations of the Colosseum, otherwise, the port would never have been found. The flames were that powerful. Can even see the steam rising from the evaporation.

Spoiler

Mate, my point was very simple. When you take the exact same amount of ice and lava, the probability of magma cooling before ice melts is very high.

The point is you're comparing Magma that can continuously heats itself and produce new Magma and Ice that continues to freeze and reproduce to a lump of ice and puddle of Magma that are no longer active. You're comparing something stale to something that's dynamic and on-going.

Oda is clearly going off the fact that Magma will cool (freeze) and Ice will melt, thus, the reason they're equally matched and using that concept as why they're equally matched and antagonistic both literally and metaphorically.

Also, you are saying something different. Smother and depriving oxygen has nothing to do with Magma absorbing Fire and becoming Hotter as why it's super, that isn't even scientifically accurate. The fact is Magma nullifies Fire by smothering it off oxygen. We're saying completely different things.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

That doesn't work.

Smother means to starve off oxygen.

Put a thick liquid over fire, the fire will stop burning. Absorption is not at all the case here.

Ace is fire, and if you remove his ability to burn, he's no different to Crocodile when he's attacked with water, no longer a sandman but a someone whose body becomes tangible.

Well, when you find an accurate translation. Until then, the official simply says superior to Fire, not that it burns Fire. Even if it says, it might say Magma can burn a Fire-man as opposed to Fire. It's still to do with smothering.

A-ha, so why exactly magma smothers Ace's fiery body, but ordinary things don't? Say bullets, or other solid objects. Also, again, Akainu says this: "you're just fire, but I am magma that can burn fire". I would have shown you the line if only I had that volume... If there's is anyone with good comprehension of Japanese – please lend us a hand.

Different process. Fire can appear under water if the energy to produce it is powerful, it just won't last long, it would be transient.

And again, the fire from Sabo came from above and evaporated the water and a hole was also made inside of the Colosseum which is where the Under-Ground Port..

Spoiler

So, yes, the water was indeed evaporated and a hole made on the foundations of the Colosseum, otherwise, the port would never have been found. The flames were that powerful. Can even see the steam rising from the evaporation.

Spoiler

Ok, now I see it.

The point is you're comparing Magma that can continuously heats itself and produce new Magma and Ice that continues to freeze and reproduce to a lump of ice and puddle of Magma that are no longer active. You're comparing something stale to something that's dynamic and on-going.

Oda is clearly going off the fact that Magma will cool (freeze) and Ice will melt, thus, the reason they're equally matched and using that concept as why they're equally matched and antagonistic both literally and metaphorically.

Listen, I think I stated very-very clearly, that I agree with you on the part that the ability to continuously sustain heat/cold when it comes to Akainu's and Aokiji's respective abilities is a thing. All I'm saying, and it's funny that I have to repeat myself so often in this conversation, is that people say things akin to "oh, magma can easily melt ice – it's a common knowledge, right?" I merely wanted to clarify the situation here, that naturally ice is "stronger" than magma.

Also, you are saying something different. Smother and depriving oxygen has nothing to do with Magma absorbing Fire and becoming Hotter as why it's super, that isn't even scientifically accurate.

Why do you think it's not accurate science-wise? Please, elaborate.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

"you're just fire, but I am magma that can burn fire".

Not the official translation.

This is.

He says even my Magma can burn you. Not that Magma burns Fire. It's impossible to burn Fire. It's like saying you're going to get water wet...

A-ha, so why exactly magma smothers Ace's fiery body, but ordinary things don't?

Because a thick viscous liquid smothers fire and blankets it off oxygen, that much is a fact.

Even Books that fire fighters read make allusions to this.

Source: Book Link

What foam does is form a barrier between fire and oxygen. Magma is the same, it's thick and is somewhat similar to foam, and does the exact same thing.

I merely wanted to clarify the situation here, that naturally ice is "stronger" than magma.

It's not a fact, it's relative. It depends on their respective temperatures.

Why do you think it's not accurate science-wise? Please, elaborate.

It's nothing to do with thinking, it's fact.

This is what you stated....

magma in and of itself is a matter that would naturally absorb fire. The more fire you apply to magma – the hotter it gets. Hence – superiority.

Magma does not absorb fire. From this statement alone, everything else that follows was inherently wrong. Magma just like Foam, smothers fire, therefore, combustion can no longer take place.

If you know anything about Fire, the only way to put Fire out is to deprive it off a Fuel or Oxygen.

 

[kkck]

I am not entirely sure what the question here is. Overall when it comes to a characters strength you have the following factors:

1.- Martial arts
2.- Physical prowess
3.- Haki
4.- And finally DF

An ideal fighter in OP has mastery over all of those things and manages to synergize them to maximum effect. It is the sum of all of those things that make you a powerful warrior. That said, I do think that the only one of those things you can kinda pass on when it comes to becoming legitimately powerful is DF. A DF will very likely make you stronger however even without that you can become a powerful warrior through sheer skill. That is why you have people like mihawk or garp, who are or were at the top tiers of powers through martial arts, physical prowess and haki alone.

Now, where it gets confusing is in how all of those mix and how you interpret that. Ideally a top tier fighter in OP has all of those however it stands to reason that 2 top tier combatants won't be equal in all of them skillwise. Specially when it comes to DFs since they have their own perks, weaknesses and god knows what else. So you can have someone who gets defeated because his DF had a crippling weakness which could be exploited. However that does not mean the defeated was inferior to his enemy in terms of martial arts, physical capacity or haki. Or in turn you can have someone who is strong almost solely because of his fruit. Imagine part 1 luffy and smoker. Luffy had exactly 0 chance of defeating smoker. His fruit didn't do anything to smoker after all and luffy lacked haki at the time. But it would be unfair to suggest luffy at the time was an inferior martial artist or was physically weaker than smoker.

And then there is another issue when it comes to fruits, what exactly is the line between skill and it's inherent power? Fruits give you abilities but the abilities given by them generally have to be developed and trained. And the manga rarely, if ever, elaborates on which abilities are actually inherent to a DF or are the result of actual skill which was developed over time. Take luffy who has an ability that even oda has made the point was not meant to be too powerful. Through training it however luffy has made it effectively into a WMD. His gear 3 can topple countries at this point. Well, that is a case of someone who specifically developed a fruit from nothing into something astonishingly useful (the fruit itself lacks weaknesses to boot, people bring up knifes or swords but luffy isn't more vulnerable to those than an average joe, if anything he should be slightly less vulnerable than a normal person at least).

Now for some cases where things might get weird: Ceasar, cracker, doflamingo, crocodile, WB/BB, akainu.

Ceasar is clearly someone who lacks martial arts skills, haki and has poor (though above average) physical skills. But he has a fruit which is on all accounts powerful. And he ultimately was not much of a match to luffy. Now, one thing I have been wondering is on how did ceasar's intellect affect his usage of the fruit against what someone like, say, smoker could do with it if he had it. It's the gas gas fruit so we know it encompasses a number of gasses and ceasar himself managed a few. But I wouldn't rule out someone being limited by their own intellect when it comes to generating different gasses. Since ceasar is a scientist with a deep understanding of a variety of fields it's not implausible that he would be able to "create" gasses that other people would otherwise be unable to create. Which is not to say ceasar would be necessarily stronger than the other guy.

Or take doflamingo. His fruit seems insanely broken but it does seem like there are many facets to it. For instance, you have strings that can be broken through physical might (luffy managed to punching through them for instance) however there are other strings which simply can't be broken down at all, basically acting as forces of nature or something. For example, the bird cage which even zoro and an admiral could not break and had to settle for merely stopping. Unless someone wants to make the point that luffy's gear 4 surpasses the combined might of every warrior at dressrosa but I would find that asinine. And then other questions, could anyone who has the fruit create a bird cage? Could anyone that has the fruit be able to control people they are not even looking at? Now, it is possible that the fruit by default allows... programming strings like that but it is also well plausible that there are aspects of the fruit which are entirely skill based or otherwise rely on doflamingo's stamina. Obviously not the bird cage but since different types of strings work under different rules we can't rule it out and I would find it probable that many of doflamingo's abilities depend entirely on his skill. Doflamingo specifically mentioned awakenings in the context of having mastery over a DF which would hint at doflamingo specifically being insanely skilled at his DF ability.

The cracker. The guy has what would at first seem like a bullshit ability, conjuring crackers. However he refers to himself as an artisan when making them which could reasonably hint at his capacity to shape crackers as he wishes as being the result of him mastering that.

With WB/BB we have BB making the point he has trouble controlling the fruit's power meaning there is a fair bit of it which is inherent to it. That said, BB is someone who has relatively strong physical capacity so we can't rule out his ability to create quakes of that magnitude also being the result of that. The question here would be whether if a completely average person who got the fruit would be able to create quakes of the same magnitude as BB/WB from the get go. It is safe to say that the person would have trouble controlling the power though.

And then akainu.... Well, this would go to all logia. It is safe to say any logia would be intangible and be able to generate his element. But could any logia generate their element in the same volumes as we have seen from akainu or aokiji? Or is generating your element tied to your stamina and even your physical capacity? Take crocodile who seemed to have subpar physical capacities compared to people at the new world. He never generated gigantic amounts of sand for instance. Is that because he doesn't have the physical capacity for it? And instead he focused on creating deserts or storms or dehydrating his enemy. Would anyone be able to fight like that? Or would someone who uses the fruit differently fight in the more generic ways we see other logias do (essentially creating a lot of their element and throwing it around)?

In summary, there is a lot of nuance to fighting in the manga and the manga rarely elaborates on it, specially when it comes to which part of what a DF user shows is inherent to a fruit or is something skill related which that user specifically developed. Now, in the case of ace vs akainu we have a few translations. One is the official "My powers are far superior to yours". The others are slightly different but the context is on the ability itself. I don't think the official translation is necessarily the best though, ultimately oficial translators butcher manga almost as often as unofficial ones. This is by cnet :"Akainu: Are you allowing your Logia nature to make you a little too overconfident? / You are mere "fire"... whilst I am "magma", with the power to consume even fire itself!! // My ability is a natural enemy of your own, boy!!!" which is generally about as literal as it gets. That said, I don't think the context is too different on either.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Not the official translation.

He says even my Magma can burn you. Not that Magma burns Fire. It's impossible to burn Fire. It's like saying you're going to get water wet...

お前はただの「火 」わしは「火」を焼き尽くす「マグマ」じゃ!!

This is even more official, because it's Japanese. Akainu quite literally says, that Ace is ordinary fire, while he is magma that burns fire. It might be metaphorical, but we won't know until Oda comes out and says that. Otherwise this particular line is utterly explicit. Google translate it if you want. Here you get the vibe that Akainu's magma is just that hot and 'powerful' overall. So much that it even burns fire. Manga logic. Don't ask me.

Because a thick viscous liquid smothers fire and blankets it off oxygen, that much is a fact. Even Books that fire fighters read make allusions to this.

What foam does is form a barrier between fire and oxygen. Magma is the same, it's thick and is somewhat similar to foam, and does the exact same thing.

I do understand how this works in real life, however you overlook the fact that in case with Ace there is no such thing as 'source' nor is there any fuel. If what you say is applicable within the context of manga physics, then there would be many things able to render Ace's fire useless. Katakuri's mochi or Caribou's mud, for example. Hell, even things like honey or silicone rubber. I highly doubt this could be the case here. It is shown in the manga and even stated by Oda that it has to do with the fact that there are superior Devil Fruits.

It's not a fact, it's relative. It depends on their respective temperatures.

Nearly everything in this world is relative. What is your point?

It's nothing to do with thinking, it's fact. Magma does not absorb fire. From this statement alone, everything else that follows was inherently wrong. Magma just like Foam, smothers fire, therefore, combustion can no longer take place.

But energy absorption is quite factual. Magma absorbs energy from Ace's fire, doesn't it? But unlike many other elements, magma retains it luquid state, it doesn't evaporate like Aokiji's ice, it doesn't burn like wood. Get it? Fire can't damage lava. On the contrary, fire will contribute to lava. Hence —> Akainu's superiority.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

This is even more official, because it's Japanese. Akainu quite literally says, that Ace is ordinary fire, while he is magma that burns fire. It might be metaphorical, but we won't know until Oda comes out and says that. Otherwise this particular line is utterly explicit. Google translate it if you want. Here you get the vibe that Akainu's magma is just that hot and 'powerful' overall. So much that it even burns fire. Manga logic. Don't ask me.

It's nonetheless fact that Magma smothers Fire, that much can't be disputed. It isn't more official because it's Japanese, this is what the VIZ, the people who translate the Manga stated and it states, it is simply superior.

I do understand how this works in real life, however you overlook the fact that in case with Ace there is no such thing as 'source' nor is there any fuel. If what you say is applicable within the context of manga physics, then there would be many things able to render Ace's fire useless. Katakuri's mochi or Caribou's mud, for example. Hell, even things like honey or silicone rubber. I highly doubt this could be the case here. It is shown in the manga and even stated by Oda that it has to do with the fact that there are superior Devil Fruits.

Ace is the source of Fire just like Crocodile is the source of Sand. You do anything to alter the chemistry, it ceases to function.

But energy absorption is quite factual.

Magma doesn't absorb fire much like foam doesn't absorb fire, it smothers it.

Fire can't damage lava. On the contrary, fire will contribute to lava. Hence —> Akainu's superiority.

Wrong, that's not how it works. You cannot burn fire. You can smother it and then burn Ace. That's how it works. It's like saying you're going to get water wetter, it doesn't work like that, that's not science.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

It's nonetheless fact that Magma smothers Fire, that much can't be disputed. It isn't more official because it's Japanese, this is what the VIZ, the people who translate the Manga stated and it states, it is simply superior.

I couldn't care less how they decided to translate that line into English, as long as I can understand Japanese. Why would I even care about the translation if there is Japanese text? Which, if you break it down is tremendously easy to understand and it couldn't be MORE CLEAR what Akainu actually said.

Ace is the source of Fire just like Crocodile is the source of Sand. You do anything to alter the chemistry, it ceases to function.

You say that Ace's fire would be nullified should you attach a thick substance to his body. A substance that works in a similar way to foam, that is, that forms a barrier between the fuel (Ace himself, as you say) and the oxygen. First, if there's no access to oxygen in a particular spot on Ace's body, then it doesn't matter what kind of substance you stick to him, as long as the properties are that of a thick element. It makes the Flare Flare Fruit ridiculously weak if that's the truth, which I doubt Oda wanted to be the case.

As I mentioned in my previous post — you dip your fist into jam and you can hit a god dam Logia, no haki required. Oda implies that there are natural enemies to some fruits. Rubber —Lightning. In actuality, the voltage that Enel has shown us to be capable of producing is more than sufficient to have an effect on Luffy, but Oda intentionally simplifies the concept to the extent that no matter how you look at it, in One Piece world – rubber > electricity.

Same is the case with Akainu's manga. Otherwise why would he even bother to point out precisely that magma is a natural enemy of fire? If what is important here is indeed "smothering" as you claim, then there's basically no sense in stating that magma is fire's natural enemy. Because there are dozens and dozens of elements that would form a barrier and cut off the access to oxygen just like magma does.

Magma doesn't absorb fire much like foam doesn't absorb fire, it smothers it.

Perhaps just like any other thing in this world, magma is something that can accumulate heat. If you intend to cavil at every word I use, fine, but I corrected myself already. So why do you only consider the prior wording?

Of course you can't absorb fire in and of itself, but what I meant was that fire radiates heat. The heat emission is the result of fuel burning up. If you throw a god damn rock into a bonfire, then you would expect it to absorb and accumulate the heat that is emitted from the burning fuel. What is it exactly that you find flawed and scientifically incorrect about that?

Wrong, that's not how it works. You cannot burn fire. You can smother it and then burn Ace. That's how it works. It's like saying you're going to get water wetter, it doesn't work like that, that's not science.

You know what else you can't do? You can't bounce off of the air by hitting it with your feet. You can't melt ice with fire or magma that easily. You can't change someone's sex by merely conducting a hormone injection.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You know what else you can't do? You can't bounce off of the air by hitting it with your feet. You can't melt ice with fire or magma that easily. You can't change someone's sex by merely conducting a hormone injection.

Look up the word exaggeration, it seems you're struggling to understand that concept. And if you read what I said carefully, I said where Oda is talking about things related to factually understood scientific topics, he applies them here and exaggerates or tones down their efficacy for the sake of avoiding to make a character completely invincible.

Fact at the end of the day is Fire can only be put out in 2 ways; remove the fuel or deprive it off oxygen, it's not rocket science. Not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.

Magma is essentially a liquid/foamy like substance and it deprives fire off oxygen. This thing about Magma getting hotter because of fire, please, it's nonsense. Even Magma creates outburst of flames, just look at a Volcano erupting, so it is irrelevant.

Put something thick of foamy over fire, it will be put out.

Nothing to it.

It makes the Flare Flare Fruit ridiculously weak if that's the truth, which I doubt Oda wanted to be the case.

No different to how water would put Prometheus out. Does that make it weak? How many people walk around One Piece anticipating they're going to be attacked by Fire? Even if you're able to put out fire, Ace can float and fly around, it requires speed to even hit him. So, it's not as simple as "oh, water or anything liquid-like substance can faze him", there's much more to combat than just identifying a weakness, it's the ability to pull it off. Even if a weakness can be found, it doesn't mean the enemy still can't be burn. Look what happened to Burgess after fighting Sabo? No, water, but he has Haki, yet, he still got beaten to within inches of his life. So, you're throwing the baby out with the bath water here, there's far more factors to consider when fighting someone with such an ability.

It's no different to how water can be used to fight Crocodile, but how many people will walk around carrying tanks of water just "in-case" they come across Crocodile? That's not at all convenient or reasonable. Even if you're able to hit Crocodile due to weakness, does it mean he can no longer dehydrate you to within inches of one's life as he did to Luffy? No. So, it really isn't that straight-forward an equation you're making it out to be.

There are many advantages to being Fire regardless of weakness being exposed:

1. As Fire, one can move in ways that aren't ordinary to the human body and in expected ways meaning they have the advantage of attacking from weird angles.
2. They can fight on ground or in the air.
3. They can still burn the opponent regardless of weakness found.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 18, 2017 ---

I couldn't care less how they decided to translate that line into English, as long as I can understand Japanese. Why would I even care about the translation if there is Japanese text? Which, if you break it down is tremendously easy to understand and it couldn't be MORE CLEAR what Akainu actually said.

So, if you understand it, then why did you make this thread with all the "but fire burns at x-degreees, blah blah blah"?? If it's so simply, what was the purpose of this thread to begin with if the case was, Magma is hotter, therefore??

According to Akainu himself, because magma burns hotter! Personally, I find that this is a ridiculously erroneous claim. Why?

Hell, he didn't even say Magma is hotter or stronger, he said superior. Even if he said Magma can burn fire, the fact at the end of the day is Magma is a liquid and puts out fire.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Look up the word exaggeration, it seems you're struggling to understand that concept. And if you read what I said carefully, I said where Oda is talking about things related to factually understood scientific topics, he applies them here and exaggerates or tones down their efficacy for the sake of avoiding to make a character completely invincible.

Look up the expression "to look down on someone", because that's what you're doing. I'm referring to your tone of course.

Fact at the end of the day is Fire can only be put out in 2 ways; remove the fuel or deprive it off oxygen, it's not rocket science. Not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.

It isn't difficult to grasp.

Magma is essentially a liquid/foamy like substance and it deprives fire off oxygen. This thing about Magma getting hotter because of fire, please, it's nonsense. Even
Magma creates outburst of flames, just look at a Volcano erupting, so it is irrelevant.

What exactly is so nonsensical about it? You didn't answer. The fact that lava creates outbursts of flames doesn't mean it cannot absorb heat. In fact, it is exactly what it will do due to the fact that Ace's fire radiates more heat. Naturally, the heat will travel from a hotter object to a cooler one.

Put something thick of foamy over fire, it will be put out.

Yes, that works.

No different to how water would put Prometheus out. Does that make it weak? How many people walk around One Piece anticipating they're going to be attacked by Fire? Even if you're able to put out fire, Ace can float and fly around, it requires speed to even hit him. So, it's not as simple as "oh, water or anything liquid-like substance can faze him", there's much more to combat than just identifying a weakness, it's the ability to pull it off. Even if a weakness can be found, it doesn't mean the enemy still can't be burn. Look what happened to Burgess after fighting Sabo? No, water, but he has Haki, yet, he still got beaten to within inches of his life. So, you're throwing the baby out with the bath water here, there's far more factors to consider when fighting someone with such an ability.

Valid point.

It's no different to how water can be used to fight Crocodile, but how many people will walk around carrying tanks of water just "in-case" they come across Crocodile? That's not at all convenient or reasonable. Even if you're able to hit Crocodile due to weakness, does it mean he can no longer dehydrate you to within inches of one's life as he did to Luffy? No. So, it really isn't that straight-forward an equation you're making it out to be.

Valid point.

So, if you understand it, then why did you make this thread with all the "but fire burns at x-degreees, blah blah blah"?? If it's so simply, what was the purpose of this thread to begin with if the case was, Magma is hotter, therefore??

That's the whole purpose of having forums like mangahelpers, when you're free to create topics, claim your ideas and discuss them with fellow forum members. I had my own comprehension of things and I simply wanted to share my humble understanding.

No need to get cocky and turn on the mockery mode. You can talk normally, as an adult.

Plus, I said it is clear what Akainu says there, but it is not clear how "burning fire" works in One Piece. It could very well be just smothering...

Hell, he didn't even say Magma is hotter or stronger, he said superior. Even if he said Magma can burn fire, the fact at the end of the day is Magma is a liquid and puts out fire.

He said "my magma burns your fire". Then he says that his ability is superior and it is the same in Japanese. He also mentions that his element is what you'd call a natural enemy of Ace's element.

My problem to begin with, was that this whole conversation that took place between Akainu and Ace gave me an impression, that Akainu's DF is superior not because it allows him to manipulate a foam-like element (property-wise), but rather because his element is so hot/powerful that it can burn/damage fire or something. He didn't say his magma is hotter, but for some reason I felt that it was implied.

To me that explanation (or my personal interpretation of it) sounded a bit off, so I tried to seek for better reasons for Magma Magma Fruit to be naturally more powerful than Flare Flare Fruit. And I ended up assuming that it has something to do with the fact that heat travels from hotter objects to cooler ones, making it impossible for Ace to hurt Akainu, because heating up magma will serve no purpose in a fight. Therefore, I suggested, that the actual reason Akainu stated what he had stated was in substance that his natural superiority is the consequence of the above-mentioned physical law.

I wanted to point out the contradiction that in my opinion took place. I had a strong image imprinted in my mind, as if what Akainu implied was that his magma is hotter or something.

Having said that, I don't necessarily wish to continue the "dispute". I only tried to answer your question that you decided to ask with unconcealed indignation for some reason...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Your problem here is you don't understand that liquid quenches fire.

Apparently, flowing Lava is not in essence, a liquid.

If you don't comprehend that, then, this is a pointless discussion.

It's not a matter of looking down, I'm just stating facts and you're merely trying to meander your way around a fact to come up with some pseudo-explanation that makes 0 sense.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Your problem here is you don't understand that liquid quenches fire.

Apparently, flowing Lava is not in essence, a liquid.

If you don't comprehend that, then, this is a pointless discussion.

It's not a matter of looking down, I'm just stating facts and you're merely trying to meander your way around a fact to come up with some pseudo-explanation that makes 0 sense.

Apparently, you're a total douche. Because I even admitted several times through the course of my latest post that you make valid points and that the mechanism behind Akainu's superiority could very well be that lava smothers fire, as you were saying.

But you're still on with this impudent behavior of yours. Apparently they don't teach manners in whatever country you live in. Pseudo-explanation that makes 0 sense — is your attempt to justify your arrogant manner to communicate with people.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Apparently they don't teach manners in whatever country you live in.

Actually, the country we live in (UK) is mighty popular due to our 'please', 'thank you' and 'sorry/pardon' for almost every scenario.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Actually, the country we live in (UK) is mighty popular due to our 'please', 'thank you' and 'sorry/pardon' for almost every scenario.

Ironically enough, I was the one making use of such expressions. But regardless of that, I didn't mean to offend anyone. Perhaps I could say it differently.