One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kcd]

He knows what she does, he knows she bakes cakes. The cake is done.

If you gather context, didn't they (including Oven/Perospero/Katakuri) question how Chiffon would aid? Pudding said she'd make her listen and is holding a gun. With Pudding there and the chefs having known what's transpired, it's only logical he'd (and they) trust the Cake is edible since there's no reason to doubt Pudding's loyalty. Everyone including Katakuri has put their faith in her.

Ironic what's being called dumb really.

If the only person capable of preparing the Cake was Chiffon and no one else, then yes, but that's clearly not the case here. Pudding still tried to shoot Sanji despite failing, she made her sentiments known, and there's really no way to tell she's lying as they can only go by her actions. Only so much one can do when they're not psychic or able to read the thoughts of people.

I think it's not a question of whether one is psychic or not, she clearly had no objection to the assassination plan, you'd think he'll be worried if said person gives you food to eat, the first sensible thing is to think whether the cake has been compromised.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

It's like Robin surviving the massacre carried out by the world government, but then not think they would give her food and not poison it. Oven lacked common sense there, let's be honest and call kettle what it is.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I think it's not a question of whether one is psychic or not, she clearly had no objection to the assassination plan, you'd think he'll be worried if said person gives you food to eat, the first sensible thing is to think whether the cake has been compromised.

Point is what reason is there to doubt Pudding? and you can't provide a valid answer.

It's like Robin surviving the massacre carried out by the world government, but then not think they would give you a food and not poison it. Oven lacked common sense there, let's be honest and call kettle what it is.

That's not the issue here. Did Pudding attempt to assassinate Big Mom?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

This was why Katakuri couldn’t predict what was gonna happen next. Okay bunch of luffys invaded the hall, but Can I keep up with these invaders??

Please link the pages for that. Im actually not sure, but I believe perospero was still talking after all he’ll broke loose, it takes a second to shoot but he was telling them about how they are meat caught in a trap or some shit...
well I’ll honestly count out Vergo and niji. Niji knew Sanji will be pissed, so he could expect him to attack at least. If sanjis speed wasn’t that blinding, then niji should have blocked.

Nope, wrong.

In order to predict the actions of an individual:

1. You need to focus on them like he did Pudding, and foresaw her actions. There were multitudes of Luffy clones around, how should he know which one to focus on?

Secondly, in order to predict the actions of an individual, the individual must be the target of an attack:

1. None of those Luffy-clones were about to attack Katakuri, so there's no way for him to pick out the real Luffy. It's exactly the reason why Sanji was going to dodge the bullet if it came from the priest, and if it came from Katakuri or anyone else, he was the target of their shots.

Nope, Niji shouldn't have blocked, you're doing that thing against...lacking in context. Re-read the arc again or something.

Sanji and Niji were about to fight at the wedding. Judge pulled out a picture of Zeff and Sanji understood the situation. If he went out of line, Zeff would get killed. He had to hold himself back.

Sanji wasn't expected to attack because they knew he wouldn't be reckless enough to do anything silly, otherwise, Zeff would be killed. It's not at all that Sanji was too fast, and in fact, Niji noticed it. He just reacted too late. He would have blocked or evaded if he knew Sanji was going to act so rashly.

As above shows, they had to remind him about Zeff because they didn't expect Sanji to be so rash. And in fact, Niji actually speed-blitzes Sanji. He's surprised Niji is no longer in front of him and surprised he's even behind him too.

If I exercised your rationale (not taking things in context), I'd be claiming that Niji is faster than Sanji when really, take things into context, it's clear that Sanji looked at Ichiji when he brought up Zeff, and by the time he looked back to find Niji, he was gone and behind Sanji. Sanji got distracted. It's not really a case of Niji being too fast for Sanji, and at the same time, it doesn't mean Niji is slow either.

Do yourself a favour, get acquainted with the using of context.

 

[kcd]

Point is what reason is there to doubt Pudding? and you can't provide a valid answer.



That's not the issue here. Did Pudding attempt to assassinate Big Mom?

I get what you mean, pudding wasn't a part of the assassination crew and has no reason to hurt bigmom, but chiffon is, and she took part in making the cake just like pudding. The point I'm making is that at the very least he should be concerned or worried if the cake was compromised, I get your point he has no reason to be worried but, chiffon's presence alone, from the start to how far they've baked should make him a bit worried, if he had said something like - hey pudding, chiffon was among those that tried to kill bigmom, did you make sure she didn't compromise the cake?, we don't wanna take any chance with bigmom's life.

then I'll say he's not that dumb, atleast he he thinks things through, that's what I think.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I get what you mean, pudding wasn't a part of the assassination crew and has no reason to hurt bigmom, but chiffon is, and she took part in making the cake just like pudding. The point I'm making is that at the very least he should be concerned or worried if the cake was compromised, I get your point he has no reason to be worried but, chiffon's presence alone, from the start to how far they've baked should make him a bit worried, if he had said something like - hey pudding, chiffon was among those that tried to kill bigmom, did you make sure she didn't compromise the cake?, we don't wanna take any chance with bigmom's life.

then I'll say he's not that dumb, atleast he he thinks things through, that's what I think.

Point is, why should he be concerned when Pudding and Chefs who witnessed the crime are there to supervise the creation of this cake?

As far as he knows, Pudding held a gun to her head and forced her into baking the cake. Why should he?

He doesn't need to ask about the cake, he trusts Pudding as does everyone else. The point of trusting is to give the benefit of the doubt. What reason does he have to doubt that Pudding wouldn't take all this into account knowing full well Chiffon is the enemy and as far as she's concerned, she hates Chiffon too?

Even if he asked, do you really think she'd say, do you really think he'd doubt her? Unlikely, he trusts her. If there was no trust, they'd have been in the kitchen regardless of Pudding's orders.

For any organisation to function, there needs to be trust, otherwise, it will crumble. When there's no trust, there's paranoia, how does any organisation function as a unit if everyone was paranoid? Simple answer is, there's no reason for anyone to question Pudding regardless of Chiffon being there. There's a ton of chefs loyal to the BMP and Pudding there to supervise.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Point is what reason is there to doubt Pudding? and you can't provide a valid answer.



That's not the issue here. Did Pudding attempt to assassinate Big Mom?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

Nope, wrong.

In order to predict the actions of an individual:

1. You need to focus on them like he did Pudding, and foresaw her actions. There were multitudes of Luffy clones around, how should he know which one to focus on?

Secondly, in order to predict the actions of an individual, the individual must be the target of an attack:

1. None of those Luffy-clones were about to attack Katakuri, so there's no way for him to pick out the real Luffy. It's exactly the reason why Sanji was going to dodge the bullet if it came from the priest, and if it came from Katakuri or anyone else, he was the target of their shots.

Nope, Niji shouldn't have blocked, you're doing that thing against...lacking in context. Re-read the arc again or something.

Sanji and Niji were about to fight at the wedding. Judge pulled out a picture of Zeff and Sanji understood the situation. If he went out of line, Zeff would get killed. He had to hold himself back.


Sanji wasn't expected to attack because they knew he wouldn't be reckless enough to do anything silly, otherwise, Zeff would be killed. It's not at all that Sanji was too fast, and in fact, Niji noticed it. He just reacted too late. He would have blocked or evaded if he knew Sanji was going to act so rashly.



As above shows, they had to remind him about Zeff because they didn't expect Sanji to be so rash. And in fact, Niji actually speed-blitzes Sanji. He's surprised Niji is no longer in front of him and surprised he's even behind him too.

If I exercised your rationale (not taking things in context), I'd be claiming that Niji is faster than Sanji when really, take things into context, it's clear that Sanji looked at Ichiji when he brought up Zeff, and by the time he looked back to find Niji, he was gone and behind Sanji. Sanji got distracted. It's not really a case of Niji being too fast for Sanji, and at the same time, it doesn't mean Niji is slow either.

Do yourself a favour, get acquainted with the using of context.

Okay so when Sanji kicked Vergo in the face for the second time, Vergo was distracted?? What context are you going to milk now???
After what ichiji said it was obvious Sanji wouldn’t fight anymore. If Sanji wanted to keep fighting he woulda gotten up after niji hit him, or he’d have a good momentum, but he was stopped, and Couldnt offer any resistant. Sanji didn’t count on them doing that. Which is a dumb decision. Yes Sanji didn’t think it through. The fight woulda been at least 2 on 1.
They paralysed him with what they said.
So niji acted like oven (thinking Bege will just tow a nice line) and didn’t think he’d get attacked by Sanji . So seeing an attack coming and not reacting in time means what???
But tbh if I hold your father figure hostage, and I did something that disrespect your value which you would die for .(Sanji coulda died fighting khalifa Cos he didn’t wanna hit her, same against voila, but more like hopelessly in love). In rage you’d still attack me. So Sanji probably knew niji did that to piss him off but he didn’t care. I’ve not said anyone is slow, I’ve just said they’re not as fast as Sanji, from the exchanges we’ve seen. Especially Vergo. Also for the record, it didn’t look like niji even reacted at all.




If there’s no reason to doubt pudding then he should listen to her and stop hitting chiffon when pudding pleaded with him. Plus a reason is that pudding couldn’t shoot Sanji when it was crucia. This was why oVens twin hit her as well.

Also Katakuri got up after Sanji dodged and he saw in the future lots of Luffy will pour out. Not after luffys poured out right? I’m not sure about that sequence. The page you showed was Luffy already out of the cake?? Or was it just Katakuri acting based on the future he saw?? I’m not sure.
Edit: actually nvm I reread the chapter. Luffy wasn’t out of the cake yet so he couldn’t have sense him. Because he was coming from the mirror world. So being confused as to what was going on and not knowing they had brûlée, he couldn’t understand the future he saw.
So he couldn’t predict the next move, because he was confused, but he took the best course of action of protecting the queen.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’d say your picture of Katakuri jumping in front of mama lacked context as you’ve conviniently not looked at why he couldn’t stop what was supposed to happen.

 

[kcd]

Point is, why should he be concerned when Pudding and Chefs who witnessed the crime are there to supervise the creation of this cake?

As far as he knows, Pudding held a gun to her head and forced her into baking the cake. Why should he?

He doesn't need to ask about the cake, he trusts Pudding as does everyone else. The point of trusting is to give the benefit of the doubt. What reason does he have to doubt that Pudding wouldn't take all this into account knowing full well Chiffon is the enemy and as far as she's concerned, she hates Chiffon too?

Even if he asked, do you really think she'd say, do you really think he'd doubt her? Unlikely, he trusts her. If there was no trust, they'd have been in the kitchen regardless of Pudding's orders.

For any organisation to function, there needs to be trust, otherwise, it will crumble. When there's no trust, there's paranoia, how does any organisation function as a unit if everyone was paranoid? Simple answer is, there's no reason for anyone to question Pudding regardless of Chiffon being there. There's a ton of chefs loyal to the BMP and Pudding there to supervise.

It's alright, I'm thinking none of us is willing to change our opinion on oven, I'll wait and see how he reacts now that he's mad, especially around the cake, thank goodness there's no break this week.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It's alright, I'm thinking none of us is willing to change our opinion on oven, I'll wait and see how he reacts now that he's mad, especially around the cake, thank goodness there's no break this week.

Fair, but if they're going to start questioning the integrity of people whom they have no reason to question, then everyone should equally be under scrutiny. If Oven asked Pudding if the Cake was safe to eat, she'd likely say yes it is, it wouldn't serve any purpose other than to question if she's not a traitor. If they're going to go that far, Oven might as well ask Pudding to taste the cake. That's being meticulous right there, and when you're needing to go that far, it means no one is to be trusted.

It then escalates that if people whom should be trusted can't be trusted as they have no history of wrong doing or been complicit in this act of treachery, then why not question Brulee too?

1. Without her, the cake wouldn't have been ruined and there wouldn't have been all those clones.
2. Without her, Luffy wouldn't have been able to escape the mirror world.

What if she's just playing along with the BMP, and really is siding with the SHs like Pudding pretended earlier? It turns into something rather ugly and things will quickly escalate.

No reason to not trust Pudding, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see the next chapter.

 

[kcd]

Fair, but if they're going to start questioning the integrity of people whom they have no reason to question, then everyone should equally be under scrutiny. If Oven asked Pudding if the Cake was safe to eat, she'd likely say yes it is, it wouldn't serve any purpose other than to question if she's not a traitor. If they're going to go that far, Oven might as well ask Pudding to taste the cake. That's being meticulous right there, and when you're needing to go that far, it means no one is to be trusted.

It then escalates that if people whom should be trusted can't be trusted as they have no history of wrong doing or been complicit in this act of treachery, then why not question Brulee too?

1. Without her, the cake wouldn't have been ruined and there wouldn't have been all those clones.
2. Without her, Luffy wouldn't have been able to escape the mirror world.

What if she's just playing along with the BMP, and really is siding with the SHs like Pudding pretended earlier? It turns into something rather ugly and things will quickly escalate.

No reason to not trust Pudding, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see the next chapter.

Still, It's not like all her children loves her, what keeps them in check from going against her is the fear of the consequences, only few have dared or tried it, like Lola, so it won't be surprising if others have their own agendas, anyways, it's good to wait and see as you've said.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Okay so when Sanji kicked Vergo in the face for the second time, Vergo was distracted?? What context are you going to milk now???

Lol, did I say he was distracted for the 2nd kick? You're making up and building up strawmen. I never touched on it.

After what ichiji said it was obvious Sanji wouldn’t fight anymore. If Sanji wanted to keep fighting he woulda gotten up after niji hit him, or he’d have a good momentum, but he was stopped, and Couldnt offer any resistant. Sanji didn’t count on them doing that. Which is a dumb decision. Yes Sanji didn’t think it through. The fight woulda been at least 2 on 1.

Irrelevant.

The point is Niji didn't expect Sanji to attack, thus the reason he got caught. And the reason Sanji had to be reminded about his predicament. Not sure what a 2 on 1 has to do with anything, but okay.

So niji acted like oven (thinking Bege will just tow a nice line) and didn’t think he’d get attacked by Sanji . So seeing an attack coming and not reacting in time means what???

Nope, difference between being nice and being sensible. Hufe distinction pal.

Not attacking someone holding a loved one hostage isn't known as being nice - not sure where you drew that notion from, it's known as being cautious. It's like saying that the police not attacking a criminal with a hostage is being nice, no, they're being sensible and cautious. It'd be rather stupid to attack someone with a hostage 9/10 times. You don't have to be in the Police Academy to know this, it's really just common sense.

But tbh if I hold your father figure hostage, and I did something that disrespect your value which you would die for .(Sanji coulda died fighting khalifa Cos he didn’t wanna hit her, same against voila, but more like hopelessly in love). In rage you’d still attack me. So Sanji probably knew niji did that to piss him off but he didn’t care. I’ve not said anyone is slow, I’ve just said they’re not as fast as Sanji, from the exchanges we’ve seen. Especially Vergo. Also for the record, it didn’t look like niji even reacted at all.

It'd be stupid for anyone to attack someone with a hostage, that isn't debatable really, lol. Falling into rage is a choice, there's this thing called self-control.

Sanji isn't faster than anyone, no one has issues with his speed. And Niji did react. If you paid attention to the imagery devices in the Manga, you'd know the exclamation mark means reacting to something due to surprise. It's riddled across the Manga.

If there’s no reason to doubt pudding then he should listen to her and stop hitting chiffon when pudding pleaded with him. Plus a reason is that pudding couldn’t shoot Sanji when it was crucia. This was why oVens twin hit her as well.

Wrong. Her role was to bake the cake. Oven is 48 years old. He knows what Chiffon does in the Island, they've all lived in WCI their entire lives. Her job was to bake the cake and she's done it. There's a reason Oven didn't barge into the kitchen and drag her out, he let her bake the cake, she's done now, she's not needed, he can do to her as he pleases.

Also Katakuri got up after Sanji dodged and he saw in the future lots of Luffy will pour out. Not after luffys poured out right? I’m not sure about that sequence. The page you showed was Luffy already out of the cake?? Or was it just Katakuri acting based on the future he saw?? I’m not sure.
Edit: actually nvm I reread the chapter. Luffy wasn’t out of the cake yet so he couldn’t have sense him. Because he was coming from the mirror world. So being confused as to what was going on and not knowing they had brûlée, he couldn’t understand the future he saw.
So he couldn’t predict the next move, because he was confused, but he took the best course of action of protecting the queen.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’d say your picture of Katakuri jumping in front of mama lacked context as you’ve conviniently not looked at why he couldn’t stop what was supposed to happen.

I'll correct you for being wrong. If you need every single panel put up for you, then this Manga is far too complicated for you.

Not sure how it's convenient when the point made was about the short comings of Observation, regardless of why he couldn't, the point is Observation Haki has limitations if even the best CoO user we've witnessed to date can't deal with everything as seen.

Katakuri couldn't stop the Cake, that much is a given, but he also couldn't identify the real Luffy until he identified himself whcih is the point being made. Learn the meaning of convenience, it's only dishonestly convenient if my point being made and the image are distorting a point that is fallacious, and I wasn't, lol. Ironically, you're being the dishonest one here by making false accusations, how convenient.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

Still, It's not like all her children loves her, what keeps them in check from going against her is the fear of the consequences, only few have dared or tried it, like Lola, so it won't be surprising if others have their own agendas, anyways, it's good to wait and see as you've said.

Only Lola has and she didn't do so out of vindictiveness, she has no idea her mother is upset because she's naive and it's this credulity that had her tell Nami to inform Big Mom of her well-being. We saw Pudding even ask Lola if Big Mom would kill her for leaving, and Lola told her it was absurd because they're family. Lola's not the sharpest tool in the box if even her younger sister saw that this would be viewed as betrayal and result in a death sentence.

If your argument is that her children don't love her, they should be suspicious, then everyone of her children should be suspects at this point. Surely, that wouldn't exclude Oven, Katakuri, MontD'or, etc. I wonder how the crew functions if everyone is suspicious of the other.

While Big Mom rules by fear, the children are going far beyond the call of duty. They have shown some level of care towards the other and even pride in each other, even sympathy and expressed some level of empathy for the death of a sibling. They may not love Big Mom, they may just respect her ambition and MontD'or has even spoken highly and proudly of the crew. This doesn't look entirely like pure fear, they act like they have a stake in her success, and in a sense, they do because they inherit her dynasty eventually. Perhaps, fear is the case for the civilians, but not the siblings to the extent you're painting it out to be.

Nonetheless, whatever reason they have to trust Daifuku, Brulee, Oven or Katakuri, it's the same reason to trust Pudding. There's really no reason for any suspicion as she's not gone out of line like Chiffon has.

 

[Enima]

He isn't fast enough to react to vergo's attack..

This is what I said...

Bullshit. Read the chapter, and see if he did not evade all attacks.

I did..

The only attack that touch Sanji broke his shin.

But you proved my point...

I never once thought Vergo was completely overpowering Sanji.

Of course! It's would be stupid if Vergo managed to completely overpower Sanji in such a short amount of time. Vergo isn't a top tier fighter. But! he did manage to break Sanji's bone within that short amount of time. And even Sanji seemed to think that the fight wouldn't have ended well for him.

Spoiler

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

This is what I said...

I did..

But you proved my point...

Of course! It's would be stupid if Vergo managed to completely overpower Sanji in such a short amount of time. Vergo isn't a top tier fighter. But! he did manage to break Sanji's bone within that short amount of time. And even Sanji seemed to think that the fight wouldn't have ended well for him.

Spoiler

So how is Vergo faster when he didn’t land one attack after the one sanji blocked, that broke his shin?? Explain to me. especially to a guy who’s shin just cracked??
This is fuckery tbh. It’s like talking to a wall. If I can run a hundred meters faster than you with a broken leg, if my legs are fine, will you be miraculously faster than me??? No.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

Lol, did I say he was distracted for the 2nd kick? You're making up and building up strawmen. I never touched on it.

Exactly, you conveniently ignore things that don’t go your way. Even though Sanji didn’t use soru against Vergo, he landed a second kick. But you decided not to touch on it.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017 ---

Sanji isn't faster than anyone, no one has issues with his speed. And Niji did react. If you paid attention to the imagery devices in the Manga, you'd know the exclamation mark means reacting to something due to surprise. It's riddled across the Manga.

Sanji lost control when he saw what niji did To cossette. Yeah he realised oh shit I’m getting kicked in the face, and he couldn’t dodge it. React in the sense of moving away, or avoiding the attack, he couldn’t do shit.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017 ---

I'll correct you for being wrong. If you need every single panel put up for you, then this Manga is far too complicated for you.

Not sure how it's convenient when the point made was about the short comings of Observation, regardless of why he couldn't, the point is Observation Haki has limitations if even the best CoO user we've witnessed to date can't deal with everything as seen.

You put a manga page that doesn’t prove your point is all I’m saying. There was no Luffy to be sensed YET in the page you provided, and then. And then Katakuri kinda disappeared, from mama’s vicinity. Don’t know why. But then when Luffy identifies himself he kicks Luffy.
So my point has never been that haki is perfect. So that is why seeing a second of your face getting blown off should let you react. It takes a second to dodge. Ovens CoO should be good enough to see a second right?? So what did he lack in avoiding that attack. Speed, and his CoO not being that great.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017 ---

Wrong. Her role was to bake the cake. Oven is 48 years old. He knows what Chiffon does in the Island, they've all lived in WCI their entire lives. Her job was to bake the cake and she's done it. There's a reason Oven didn't barge into the kitchen and drag her out, he let her bake the cake, she's done now, she's not needed, he can do to her as he pleases.

Baking a cake includes decoration. Does oven know this?? Also until oven states that he knows chiffon’s role in the cake then you’re really just assuming. Because pudding just told them she’ll make her bake it. Also Bege probably has a plan for shooting oven, or he was just getting him back for hitting his wife. Have we seen the outcome of Bege shooting oven?? Tho I suspect It might not end well for his wife. Hope we see the outcome this week

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Exactly, you conveniently ignore things that don’t go your way. Even though Sanji didn’t use soru against Vergo, he landed a second kick. But you decided not to touch on it.

Lol, Soru is used to move away from an opponent.

He was fighting him head on. You do know Vergo was also a Rokoshuki user. He was using Geppou in a way we've never seen it used before, he used it horizontally.

Vergo didn't care about Sanji's kicks, he's that confident in his strength. He even let Smoker hit him, lol.

Vergo's kicks were fast enough to even surprise Sanji, thus that symbol on his head. Vergo was just as fast as Sanji.

And if you notice the "Gang - Gong -Grank" exclamations implying how they're both clashing with each other's kicks, shows they're on par in speed.

Vergo was nonetheless superior in power. Sanji was no issue for Vergo in speed.

Common sense, just because you hit your opponent doesn't make you faster than they are, lol. Luffy hit Joker, Joker hit Luffy, doesn't mean either was faster than the other. In an exchange, there is bound to be successful attacks from both parties.

Sanji lost control when he saw what niji did To cossette. Yeah he realised oh shit I’m getting kicked in the face, and he couldn’t dodge it. React in the sense of moving away, or avoiding the attack, he couldn’t do shit.

Wrong again. Sanji wasn't supposed to kick, it wasn't expected because of Zeff. Sanji nonetheless reacted differently and Niji only caught wind of Sanji's actions late because he didn't expect.

It's common sense, it's hard to evade something unexpected.

Exercise using some sound reasoning with context. It's like claiming that because Zoro hit Sanji and knocked him out, Zoro is faster than Sanji. Surely, that's what you think as you lack a scintilla of sound reasoning.

If you actually learnt to use context, and I doubt you ever will at this rate as you keep exceeding yourself, Sanji only got caught here because he didn't expect to be hit by Zoro just like Niji didn't expect.

According to your fatuous logic though, Sanji was too slow to react, right? Lol. Bring on the double-standards.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2017 ---

You put a manga page that doesn’t prove your point is all I’m saying.

Katakuri said he couldn't stop it, that's the point which you clearly can't comprehend. You're not saying anything sensible.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017 ---

Baking a cake includes decoration. Does oven know this??

The taste of the Cake isn't based on decoration. All Big Mom wants is the taste. A Cake can look awful and taste great and look great, and taste awful. Common sense. The Cake has been baked, the rest is aesthetics and Pudding along with the other Chefs can take care of that and Sanji of course who is secretly on board.

Also Bege probably has a plan for shooting oven, or he was just getting him back for hitting his wife.

Oven isn't psychic, no one is, so there's really no way to have known he'd have shot when Chiffon was hostage.

Like I said, you don't need to be in the Police Academy or have gone to Quantico in order to know you don't shoot a person holding someone hostage due to the risks. Bege is taking a risk here, not a common one. Only he knows what the plan is, even Sanji doesn't know and has to ask how Bege is going to play this out.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Lol, Soru is used to move away from an opponent.

He was fighting him head on. You do know Vergo was also a Rokoshuki user. He was using Geppou in a way we've never seen it used before, he used it horizontally.

Vergo didn't care about Sanji's kicks, he's that confident in his strength. He even let Smoker hit him, lol.

As usual, your poor eye for insight consistently inconsistent as ever.

Vergo's kicks were fast enough to even surprise Sanji, thus that symbol on his head. Vergo was just as fast as Sanji.

And if you notice the "Gang - Gong -Grank" exclamations implying how they're both clashing with each other's kicks, shows they're on par in speed.

Vergo was nonetheless superior in power. Sanji was no issue for Vergo in speed.

Common sense genius, just because you hit your opponent doesn't make you faster than they are, lol. Luffy hit Joker, Joker hit Luffy, doesn't mean either was faster than the other. In an exchange, there is bound to be successful attacks from both parties.



Wrong again. Sanji wasn't supposed to kick, it wasn't expected because of Zeff. Sanji nonetheless reacted differently and Niji only caught wind of Sanji's actions late because he didn't expect.

It's common sense, it's hard to evade something unexpected.

As usual, you lack insight, and are biased.

Exercise using some sound reasoning with context. It's like claiming that because Zoro hit Sanji and knocked him out, Zoro is faster than Sanji. Surely, that's what you think as you lack a scintilla of sound reasoning.

If you actually learnt to use context, and I doubt you ever will at this rate as you keep exceeding yourself, Sanji only got caught here because he didn't expect to be hit by Zoro just like Niji didn't expect.

According to your fatuous logic though, Sanji was too slow to react, right? Lol. Bring on the double-standards.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2017 ---

Lol again, you lack common sense. Katakuri said he couldn't stop it, that's the point which you clearly can't comprehend. You're not saying anything sensible.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017 ---

The taste of the Cake isn't based on decoration. All Big Mom wants is the taste. A Cake can look awful and taste great and look great, and taste awful. Common sense. The Cake has been baked, the rest is aesthetics and Pudding along with the other Chefs can take care of that and Sanji of course who is secretly on board.



Good job detective.

Oven isn't psychic, no one is, so there's really no way to have known he'd have shot when Chiffon was hostage.

Like I said, you don't need to be in the Police Academy or have gone to Quantico in order to know you don't shoot a person holding someone hostage due to the risks. Bege is taking a risk here, not a common one. Only he knows what the plan is, even Sanji doesn't know and has to ask how Bege is going to play this out.

Lol I really cba anymore, first you say he didn’t land and attack while in battle vs Vergo. But I prove that. Now you bring smoker into it. Why did sanjis attack land. And what point was that picture you added when Sanji still docked in time. That just highlights sanjis speed further?? You’re starting to do the job for me now tbh I cba.

And for you to be comparing a teammate blind siding before time skip to something that happened post time skip vs someone who clearly did something to piss you off, I have to say you sir just made me lose interest in engaging in a conversation/discussion with you.
Team mate and someone you mutually hate each other and did you something to piss off are not the same thing.
That is the dumbest comparison you’ve made, so far.
Also the attack that came from Zoro seems to have been landed from the back. when they didn’t have haki pre time skip. You compare to an attack that hit niji square on the face.
I really just can’t anymore.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017 ---

Oven isn't psychic, no one is, so there's really no way to have known he'd have shot when Chiffon was hostage.

Like I said, you don't need to be in the Police Academy or have gone to Quantico in order to know you don't shoot a person holding someone hostage due to the risks. Bege is taking a risk here, not a common one. Only he knows what the plan is, even Sanji doesn't know and has to ask how Bege is going to play this out.

It was simply naive of him to think Bege will fully surrender without a fight.
If someone had a good shot in a hostage situation, and he’s certain he can hit the person holding hostage. Then he’d take it. Naïveté/overconfidence is what killed oven

 

[Enima]

So how is Vergo faster when he didn’t land one attack after the one sanji blocked

I never said vergo was faster. But Vergo (a character who's strong point is armament Haki) is able to keep up with Sanji (whose strong point's are speed and CoO). In other words, Sanji was unable to outclass Vergo in something that was supposed to be area of expertise (speed).

Because he only attacked twice. (One of them was landed and broke Sanji's bone)

This is fuckery tbh. It’s like talking to a wall. If I can run a hundred meters faster than you with a broken leg, if my legs are fine, will you be miraculously faster than me??? No.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

 

[Demonspeed]

I was just saying that Sanji's feat is impressive because it's Sanji but it's not impressive compared others. Many people seem to think that this is something special that only Sanji is capable of doing.

Pretty sure Luffy is faster than Sanji in gear 2. Luffy was able to avoid Katakuri for 40 minutes despite the fatigue from fighting Cracker (he pretty much fainted after using Gear 4 against Big Mom). Katakuri is well within the top 10 fastest characters because his fighting style depends on CoO and speed. So Luffy should be fast as hell if he can avoid Katakuri for 40 minutes despite the fatigue.

I didn't consider that Luffy was "tired" when he fought Katakuri, he used G4 and it was never implied that he was weaker than usual. Katakuri's speed feats put him above G2 Luffy, the ones you mentioned aren't really a testament of his speed. Luffy succeeded avoiding Katakuri only when he went on the defensive and it was with extreme difficulty. He had to stay very focused to succeed, when he started attacking again after discovering his weakness, they went back to square one again. Speed does matter for these kind of things but his ability to dodge and reaction speed are more important in these situations.

Katakuri's movements are more efficient because of his CoO as you said, he also is skilled with his DF. His reaction speed was enough to block G4 Luffy's attack even when he didn't have a clear mind. But with his CoO and speed at controlling his body(so fast most don't know how he avoids CoA attacks) he can make better choices and is even harder to hit.

In terms of running speed, he hasn't really shown anything making him comparable to G4 Luffy. He can match or surpass his attack speed with his skill set. To the point Luffy's attack speed with G4 became useless. These feats are not of the same kind as Sanji's speed feat in this chapter, which is more of a pure running speed speed.

The feat is impressive but not exactly because Sanji did it. It's because he did it to Oven, who is one of the "monsters" after the Sweet Commanders. I don't think that the SC would have been unable to notice him. The fact that that someone of this level didn't see him is what makes it impressive. You might argue that Luffy could do the same with G2, but I am certain that no one else could do this among the other SHs.

 

[Enima]

I didn't consider that Luffy was "tired" when he fought Katakuri, he used G4 and it was never implied that he was weaker than usual.

But he was unconscious after using G4 against Big Mom, and even Galette was stepping on him.

Spoiler

Katakuri's speed feats put him above G2 Luffy

I agree Katakuri is faster. I never said G2 Luffy is faster than Katakuri.

Luffy succeeded avoiding Katakuri only when he went on the defensive and it was with extreme difficulty. He had to stay very focused to succeed, when he started attacking again after discovering his weakness, they went back to square one again. Speed does matter for these kind of things but his ability to dodge and reaction speed are more important in these situations.

It's not a great feat if Luffy was at full power but Luffy was exhausted before the fight even started. Dodging all those attacks while being exhausted is what makes this feat impressive.

His ability to dodge heavily depends on his speed, the only other factor is CoO and since Katakuri is better at that than Luffy, Luffy must be pretty fast to dodge those attacks. "Reflexes" are basically the ability to react to something, right? Katakuri can react to something before it even happens. So the only thing That Luffy has over Katakuri is speed.

The feat is impressive but not exactly because Sanji did it. It's because he did it to Oven, who is one of the "monsters" after the Sweet Commanders. I don't think that the SC would have been unable to notice him. The fact that that someone of this level didn't see him is what makes it impressive. You might argue that Luffy could do the same with G2, but I am certain that no one else could do this among the other SHs.

We know that the only person on Cacao Island who is capable of noticing a person moving at a high speed is Oven. Once Sanji kicked Oven and sent him flying there was no longer a risk of being seen since normal people can't see something moving at that speed. But before Sanji kicked Oven, Oven was focused on pound so he didn't sense Sanji. Gear second Luffy can do this pretty easily.

We don't know how Oven is since he doesn't really have any feats. So we have to wait and see.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Also soru is used for getting away from people “apparently”?? The ridiculousness in some things this guy says. As if people have not used it for other things before.
Same guy showed coby trying to use soru to get the jump on luffy. Luffy used his version of soru to get a jump on Harjudin.
Move away from people my ass

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2017 ---

I never said vergo was faster. But Vergo (a character who's strong point is armament Haki) is able to keep up with Sanji (whose strong point's are speed and CoO). In other words, Sanji was unable to outclass Vergo in something that was supposed to be area of expertise (speed).

Because he only attacked twice. (One of them was landed and broke Sanji's bone)


I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

He attacked after and they were parried or dodged.
The analogy I gave was in relation to Vergo vs Sanji but given that you don’t understand it I see why you think Sanji is weaker, and woulda definitely lost the fight.
Luffy had haki(before Katakuri used the donut mochi ) to Katakuri in G4 but if he can’t land his attacks, he can’t beat Katakuri, as we saw when Katakuri regained his calm. Same kinda applies to Sanji except he doesn’t have a mochi Df. But the attacks Vergo tried after didn’t land.

 

[Hrathgrath]

@Hannibal Psyche @Pro Ban Corps
You guys seriously need to take a chill pill lol, having a discussion is one thing but when you break down into insults it’s just plain not helpful and it effects your reasoning to the point that you refuse to believe that your “enemy”(and I use the word loosely here of course, you’re not enemies) has anything thought out correctly. Having said that, I’d like to add my own thoughts into the discussion!
When Zoro struck Sanji, from the panel it looks to be a strike to his kidney, or his side, which would be excruciating, and likely what disabled him at the time. I don’t think Sanji was enxpecting it al all so dodging doesn’t enter into the equation. When he hit Niji, I think Niji’# reaction was a combination of shock that Sanji stood up for Colette at all (since he and his brothers just don’t get that kind of emotion, caring about others, or even themselves) and that he would attack at all given the Zeff situation. On top of that given that Niji didn’t see a Sanji as a threat in the slightest the thought of dodging to protect himself probably didn’t enter his mind. (Like when Sanji was a kid and hurt his hand trying to punch one of his brothers.)
As far as Oven in concerned. If he had been informed that they were working on the cake in there and that the cake is the only thing that’s going to stop Big Mom, chances are that even if he knew that Chiffon was in there, and I don’t know if he did or not, he would let her continue her work until she left the room since she’s supposed to since, according to Pudding, she’s the chiffon cake specialist, and contrary to what was said (and I’m just talking grammar here) baking a cake and decorating a cake are separate things, and I can imagine Oven figures they can finish without her, regardless of what Pudding said. And Bege shooting him was Beges way of saying I don’t give a shit WHAT you want me to do, I will get Chiffon back and I’ll do it MY way. Nice or not... and yeah being protective/cautious of someone you love is what I would consider being “nice”.
Now about Sanjis speed. Seriously guys, short of fanboyism, and this is true of ALL of our discussions here, characters speed, unless directly stated or DIRECTLY implied by the narrative, is up to the mangaka.. one thing to remember is this. It’s a story. As much as it must be based in some kind of logic for it to make sense to the average person and therefore be fun to us readers, the mangaka has the ability, Hell, the right!, to suspend logic for the story..
something to ponder... I respect you all for your beliefs! And until Oda says one way or the other, outside of the narrative, it’s all theory! And even then it’s subject to change! Rofl

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2017 ---

Or and soru, I believe, is simply about speed, attack or retreat, not just to get away. I mean that part I have to say I really don’t agree with.

 

[M3J]

Katakuri mentioned that he missed his merienda by forty minutes which means Luffy took up 40 minutes more than expected.

I know. What I don't know is how you came to the conclusion that Luffy was avoiding Katakuri's attacks for forty minutes straight when he was hit at least twice, on screen.

It's true he was caught twice but it's still impressive that he managed to avoid most of Katakuri's attacks within the 40 minutes considering he fainted after using gear 4 against big mom, so he barely had any energy left. If he can do that with barely any energy left then his speed at full power should be insane.

I'm not sure if he barely had energy left. Given what Luffy is capable of, it's hard to be impressed by something of this caliber. And we did see his speed at or near to full power against Doflamingo. And his speed was probably not enough against Cracker as he had to resort to letting Cracker attack him so he could bounce Cracker back into the biscuits to beat him. Weird that despite Luffy's speed, he was unable to get up close to Cracker and land a hit. Not sure if he has comparable enough speed to deal with Katakuri even at full health, especially when Luffy himself admitted in this chapter just how outmatched he was and was wondering if he could unlock the same haki that Katakuri has. I don't recall Luffy saying he'd do better if he was at full health.

That's Luffy's power though. If not, Aren't Haki and Diable jambe power ups too?

Haki is, but I'm not sure about Diable jambe as that just seems to be an attack. Does it raise Sanji's speed or increase his strength like the Gears do?

I completely agree that Luffy isn't strong enough to take down a yonko. But how is Sanji strong enough to take on Katakuri.

He isn't fast enough to react to vergo's attack..
His observation Haki didn't help against Judge, he was unable to see what judge was gonna do next...
His armament Haki isn't strong enough to tank a hit from Vergo...
Doflamingo blocked an attack from him without using Haki. so his strength isn't enough...

What can Sanji do against Katakuri.


I mean..... If we consider Katakuri being pissed off as a weakness then Luffy was unconscious due to fatigue a while before he faced Katakuri. Luffy was able to heavily injure Katakuri despite being unable to stand up a while back. Isn't that fighting equally?


I wasn't using that excuse. I was saying that Sanji managed to hit oven while Oven was distracted so until Sanji has a real battle against Oven, it's impossible to gauge Oven's strength.

Matchup. Luffy couldn't do anything to Perona's ghosts, and if he fought her, he'd have likely lost. And yet Usopp could deal with the ghosts and beat Perona. Has any reader complained about this or claimed Usopp was stronger than Luffy because he could deal with the ghosts whereas Luffy was affected by it? I doubt it because Usopp benefited from the right matchup - his negative personality couldn't be affected by Perona's ghosts. What about when Usopp managed to hurt Luffy and cause damage to him? Did anyone claim he was as strong or stronger than Sanji?

Sanji could beat Katakuri and still be weaker than Luffy just because he has an advantage.

Er, when was he not fast enough to react to Vergo's attack? I remember Sanji matching Vergo blow for blow but having trouble taking his attacks because of Vergo's superior Color of Armament. And as far as I recall, Color of Observation wouldn't predict something like that unless it's Katakuri-level. Sanji, if he even used Color of Observation, would know how the Judge would attack, but not him using his soldiers as shield.

To be fair, Doflamingo could deal with Luffy's attacks until he went Gear 4. And he still took the hits despite being wounded badly by Law's knife.

Luffy was able to recover when he was unconscious. And I'm not sure if he did heavily injure Katakuri, it doesn't look like he did. It's not fighting equally regardless as Luffy had to run away after being on the defensive for most of the fight.

I do find it weird though that despite Luffy having trouble with drugged up Hodi, we knew Luffy could beat Doflamingo and didn't what he had in his repertoire, and despite Luffy having severe difficulty against Doflamingo, difficulty against Cracker, and inability to take on both by himself, some readers believed he could beat Big Mom. And yet, despite Sanji not going all out or even losing any of his fight besides against Doflamingo (who to date has amazing feats), readers are assuming he can't beat Katakuri or lacks the power to do so.


You weren't, but Hannibal Psyche was in order to downplay Sanji. But I agree, we can't gauge Oven's strength until he actually fights. Wonder if there'll be gag involved since Oda said Sanji can handle the heat from Diable Jambe because his heart burns hotter, while Oven emanates heat or something.

 

[Hrathgrath]

Let me say preemptively that I like Sanji, and Zoro, hell! I like all the strawhats! But having said that, I reserve judgment on Sanjis ability just because I don’t feel like we’ve seen a very good example of him in a fight like we have with most of the others. Now having said THAT, hehe, I don’t understand why people are going out of their way to push the theory that Sanjis pulling an Emperor Palpatine. Hiding his SUPER MEGA strength AND HYPER-SORU Sonic the hedgehog speed and agility until he gets his face melted off by his own kicks...
Examples folllw:
1. Sanji could have kicked Judges ass! He was just stopped by the clones going into a suicide wall to protect him. I mean just cause he used his strongest techniques, Diable Jambe, and was grabbed by said flying leg and slammed into the ground long before the clone-wall. I mean he blocked his spear once with his leg! One whole blocked attack for Christ’s sake! Just because Sanji never landed a hit worthy of mention on Judge doesn’t mean he wasn’t just letting himself get beat up cause he couldn’t bare beating the crap out of a father that declared him dead, put him in an iron mask and disowned him out of disappointment. I mean he obviously LOVES THE GUY!! (In case I wasn’t overt, SarcMarc!)
2. Sanji moved so fast against Oven, no one saw him kick Oven in the shoulder to make it look like Pound hit him! No one saw him!.... other than Pudding....and Chiffon...and Oven...and there’s a good chance Bege... soooo, all of the normal townsfolk didn’t see him cause he was moving so fast!! And that’s only because he WANTED the others to see him. He totally could’ve gone faster if he wanted... just because he said he plan was not to be seen doesn’t mean he didn’t want to be NOTICED, ya know? Cause seen and noticed are entirely different!
3. And if Doflamingo hadn’t grabbed him with his strings he would’ve totally stopped the BirdCage waaaay sooner...but he knew Luffy wanted to beat him so he made sure that his attacks weren’t helpful....
4. Also he was moving sooooo quick that Niji couldn’t dodge his kick to the face. I mean just because Niji is a genetic Uber-mench who’s entire life thus far has been constant battle doesn’t mean that Sanji isn’t waaaay faster! I mean he dented Yonji’s face! Just because it happened off-panel and was only mentioned briefly doesn’t mean he didn’t stand toe to toe and just wallop the shit outta Yonji in the middle of a fight, even IF Yonji said that Sanji got the drop on him!!

Oh and he’s going to kick Big Mom so hard he’s going to knock out her soul and kill her!


**I really hope I was obvious enough in my sarcasm ROFLMAO!!!**