Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2018] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[SharkBait]

For that to happen, there has to be a new manga that actually sells that much. If the next serialization rounds end up doing as poor as the ones in 2017 (excluding the first one), they'd only lose money by cancelling RxL. Why cancel a manga that sells around 80k when it's not even guaranteed that there will be a manga selling 200-300k within the next 1-2 years?

The last one that sold 200k+ was TPN which started 1.5 years ago. The last one before that was BC which started 1.5 years before TPN, but also needed 2-2.5 years to reach 200k if I remember right.

They'd be better off just continuing the manga until there's a new manga actually selling that much. And tbh, even in that situation they're still better off cancelling new manga that don't sell much.

From the current serialization round, I don't see any manga potentially selling 200k. If Dr. Stone is only selling around 80k after a year, then Noah's Notes might end up doing similarly.

Jujutsu and Ziga scream BLeach level successes to me.

 

[TheEnhancedExe]

Jujutsu and Ziga scream BLeach level successes to me.

Jujutsu is just trying to be a second Bleach, but does so many things wrong. The introduction to the first chapter is so boring. I wouldn't even be surprised if someone didn't finish the first chapter at all. The end of chapter 1 was interesting, but chapter 2 was really bland again.

The first chapter overall barely tells the reader where this manga will go in the future. An interesting premise and interesting characters are the most important parts of a manga, but Jujutsu can't deliver either of them in the first chapter.

Plus, do you see anyone here talking about Jujutsu at all? I think that alone should tell you that barely anyone likes it. It's more like it's just trying to be a second Bleach, but miserably fails.

As for Ziga idk yet. The first chapter was mainly bland, but the twist at the end was pretty unexpected. I've only seen the raws for ch. 2, so I can't comment much on that. It looks decent, but without dialogue, I can't tell much about it. I'd probably lean more towards it getting cancelled as well, since chapter 1 wasn't good apart from the plot twist.

 

[cody]

For that to happen, there has to be a new manga that actually sells that much. If the next serialization rounds end up doing as poor as the ones in 2017 (excluding the first one), they'd only lose money by cancelling RxL. Why cancel a manga that sells around 80k when it's not even guaranteed that there will be a manga selling 200-300k within the next 1-2 years?

The last one that sold 200k+ was TPN which started 1.5 years ago. The last one before that was BC which started 1.5 years before TPN, but also needed 2-2.5 years to reach 200k if I remember right.

They'd be better off just continuing the manga until there's a new manga actually selling that much. And tbh, even in that situation they're still better off cancelling new manga that don't sell much.

From the current serialization round, I don't see any manga potentially selling 200k. If Dr. Stone is only selling around 80k after a year, then Noah's Notes might end up doing similarly.

I agree with this, I feel like people cling too much to the past and to past sales. The current reality is, it's harder and harder for new manga to take off, at least that's how things look like for weekly shounen magazines lately, at least when it comes to print numbers... Maybe the overall print sales standards are going down because digital sales are going up? Hard to really say, but it would be weird to get rid of RxL when it at least sells much better than almost all the new stuff from the other weekly shounen magazines from the last year and at least it sells about 80-100k per volume. Looking at recent trends, any of the manga from the last two serializations have low chances of even selling that much looking at recent trends.

 

[Nakura]

Shoseki Rankings(19/3-25/3)
5. One Piece #88
55. Black Clover #15
81. Gintama #72
136. Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba #10
174. Robot x Laserbeam #4
386. Hinomaru Zumou #19

30位29350/50位20000/100位11200/200位5700/300位4000/400位2950/500位2350

 

[Ninjaz]

I'm really liking the Noah's Notes, I hope it maintains this quality or gets better, and if it does I hope it'll be a stay for WSJ.
Viz's translator for the Jump Start Noah's Notes said he'd be willing to translate the series if it got picked up too. Although this doesn't matter that much considering it's not up to him at all.

But I'm more worried about it staying in the Japanese WSJ than I am of it being picked up by Viz. So I ain't gonna be worrying too much about that. Viz probably wouldn't want to pick it up unless it's a really big hit. They have a limited amount of spots for simulpubs to begin with.

It does seem to be relatively well received both in Japan and in the West by the looks of it, so I can only hope for the best.

 

[TheEnhancedExe]

I'm really liking the Noah's Notes, I hope it maintains this quality or gets better, and if it does I hope it'll be a stay for WSJ.
Viz's translator for the Jump Start Noah's Notes said he'd be willing to translate the series if it got picked up too. Although this doesn't matter that much considering it's not up to him at all.

But I'm more worried about it staying in the Japanese WSJ than I am of it being picked up by Viz. So I ain't gonna be worrying too much about that. Viz probably wouldn't want to pick it up unless it's a really big hit. They have a limited amount of spots for simulpubs to begin with.

It does seem to be relatively well received both in Japan and in the West by the looks of it, so I can only hope for the best.

If it continues to be as good as it is now, this will definitely survive. It's definitely by far the best new manga in Shounen Jump since RxL and usually all manga that are well received survive.

Of course there were some manga that lots of people complained about when it got cancelled. But in those cases, there were also many people who didn't like it. And usually these were mainly manga with potential who didn't live up to it.

To me, it seems like Ikezawa wanted to make sure that his 3rd manga survives, since most mangaka usually only get three tries if I remember right. Tbh, I haven't read either of his first two manga, but it feels that way. Especially considering that he said in the author comments that he went to Italy last summer. So he most definitely wrote the entire story in advance.

This is actually a really good sign. Other mangaka that wrote their whole stories in advance are Oda, Horikoshi and Kaiu Shirai (TPN) which all turned out to be successes. Well, Oda didn't write the whole thing, but he already had the ending and most likely the last arc written down, so he's only adding stuff in between.

Most mangaka write most of the story during serialization which is why many manga start getting less consistent at some point. Most of the cancelled manga probably aren't written completely in advance either because out of fear of getting cancelled. Since this takes way more time, many mangaka probably don't do this because they might waste way more time in the end.

However I feel like the chance of a manga being a success is way higher if the full story, or most of it, is written in advance. This certainly seems to be the case with Noah's Notes, so far.

 

[iceemperor]

If it continues to be as good as it is now, this will definitely survive. It's definitely by far the best new manga in Shounen Jump since RxL and usually all manga that are well received survive.

Of course there were some manga that lots of people complained about when it got cancelled. But in those cases, there were also many people who didn't like it. And usually these were mainly manga with potential who didn't live up to it.

To me, it seems like Ikezawa wanted to make sure that his 3rd manga survives, since most mangaka usually only get three tries if I remember right. Tbh, I haven't read either of his first two manga, but it feels that way. Especially considering that he said in the author comments that he went to Italy last summer. So he most definitely wrote the entire story in advance.

This is actually a really good sign. Other mangaka that wrote their whole stories in advance are Oda, Horikoshi and Kaiu Shirai (TPN) which all turned out to be successes. Well, Oda didn't write the whole thing, but he already had the ending and most likely the last arc written down, so he's only adding stuff in between.

Most mangaka write most of the story during serialization which is why many manga start getting less consistent at some point. Most of the cancelled manga probably aren't written completely in advance either because out of fear of getting cancelled. Since this takes way more time, many mangaka probably don't do this because they might waste way more time in the end.

However I feel like the chance of a manga being a success is way higher if the full story, or most of it, is written in advance. This certainly seems to be the case with Noah's Notes, so far.

Most cancelled manga probably had an outline written before starting. You have to have that otherwise you won't be able to proceed and readers can feel that lack of direction. Its more likely that once they actually put that idea on paper in name format and later the actual manuscript, they fell short. Also, you can't write everything in advance due to the fact that you have to be able to respond to the questionnaires. Its a known fact stated by Yudetamago, Akimoto and Takahashi Yoichi that its a competition between series. Many times, they move up events that were originally planned to be done later so as to stay competitive. This is especially true for series that are falling in the results. If they continue as they did before, they'll become cancelled that much sooner. Mangaka have to be flexible and have the judgement to reorganize their plot points. However, if you simply just go crazy then readers can tell you're scrambling for votes and you'll end up cancelled then too. Its a mix of pre-planning and writing on the go. Obviously a story will become less consistent if you write as you go but I've see that you don't need a good story to succeed, you need an interesting one. I'm currently reading Sakigake Otokojuku and I can't say its a good story but its keeping me entertained. That's why it succeeded. Its just that more often than not a good story is also entertaining.

 

[De La Croissant]

This is actually a really good sign. Other mangaka that wrote their whole stories in advance are Oda, Horikoshi and Kaiu Shirai (TPN) which all turned out to be successes. Well, Oda didn't write the whole thing, but he already had the ending and most likely the last arc written down, so he's only adding stuff in between.

Most mangaka write most of the story during serialization which is why many manga start getting less consistent at some point. Most of the cancelled manga probably aren't written completely in advance either because out of fear of getting cancelled. Since this takes way more time, many mangaka probably don't do this because they might waste way more time in the end.

Funny thing about Shirai is that

Spoiler

he planned the whole story, but during the course he changed his mind about Ray's death and so created the most controversial moment of the manga.

Sometimes planning too much in a weekly magazine can be a bad thing, especially considering the cancellation system that commands the WSJ. You have to pay attention to the reaction of the audience, give spontaneity to the plot and still preserve the logic. It must be hard.

 

[TheEnhancedExe]

Most cancelled manga probably had an outline written before starting. You have to have that otherwise you won't be able to proceed and readers can feel that lack of direction. Its more likely that once they actually put that idea on paper in name format and later the actual manuscript, they fell short. Also, you can't write everything in advance due to the fact that you have to be able to respond to the questionnaires. Its a known fact stated by Yudetamago, Akimoto and Takahashi Yoichi that its a competition between series. Many times, they move up events that were originally planned to be done later so as to stay competitive. This is especially true for series that are falling in the results. If they continue as they did before, they'll become cancelled that much sooner. Mangaka have to be flexible and have the judgement to reorganize their plot points. However, if you simply just go crazy then readers can tell you're scrambling for votes and you'll end up cancelled then too. Its a mix of pre-planning and writing on the go. Obviously a story will become less consistent if you write as you go but I've see that you don't need a good story to succeed, you need an interesting one. I'm currently reading Sakigake Otokojuku and I can't say its a good story but its keeping me entertained. That's why it succeeded. Its just that more often than not a good story is also entertaining.

Yeah, an outline is usually always written. Without one you can't really make a manga. I just meant that those mangaka wrote a full storyline before they actually started serializing their manga, but in the end they end up changing up this storyline by adding stuff, changing the order of arcs, etc. Maybe I should've mentioned that.

The problem if you're writing alongside serialization is that the chance of plotholes increases a lot, you might run out of ideas along the way or similar things. Or you might regret a decision you made early in the story later on. For example you might regret killing off a character. If you write a story beforehand, you don't have any of these problems.

If you run out of ideas, you can just make the story shorter, move stuff around, etc. If you suddenly feel like character x should instead survive, you can just change it. If you suddenly create a plothole by a decision you made later in the story, you can simply change the early story so that there is no plothole anymore.

You're right that a mix of preplanning and writing on the go is what some mangaka do, but most of them probably mainly write while serialization and only had the beginning planned out to a certain point plus what they want the end to look like.

Take Naruto for example, Kishimoto only had probably the last few chapters planned out from the start. However he revealed back during Jump Festa 2014 that he still had to figure out how to defeat Madara, 11 months before the manga ended. I think it was a similar case for Bleach, where Kubo said he made the last chapter the way he had always planned.

I think in both cases, the final villain fights and the last arc in general most likely weren't planned out beforehand, but while writing the story instead. And in both cases there was a decline at some point and more plotholes the closer both manga came to their end.

One Piece in comparison may have a few minor plotholes, but so far I can't think of any major ones.

Of course a manga needs to be entertaining, but I feel like especially plotholes take away from that enjoyment.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 27, 2018 ---

Funny thing about Shirai is that

Spoiler

he planned the whole story, but during the course he changed his mind about Ray's death and so created the most controversial moment of the manga.

Sometimes planning too much in a weekly magazine can be a bad thing, especially considering the cancellation system that commands the WSJ. You have to pay attention to the reaction of the audience, give spontaneity to the plot and still preserve the logic. It must be hard.

Yeah, I think he had the story written down three years in advance if I remember right. What I really liked was how he made the story so it could've ended with

Spoiler: Spoiler

the children just escaping from Gracefield

if the manga had been cancelled early. This truly shows how great his writing skills are.

And now we suddenly have a story of a much larger scale, which looks like it might reach at least 250-300 chapters.

 

[TyVip]

^ In an interview (might be somewhat lost in translation). The editor says TPN is half way done. If that is true then the entire series will only have ~20 volumes which is less than 200 chapters.

 

[iceemperor]

Yeah, an outline is usually always written. Without one you can't really make a manga. I just meant that those mangaka wrote a full storyline before they actually started serializing their manga, but in the end they end up changing up this storyline by adding stuff, changing the order of arcs, etc. Maybe I should've mentioned that.

The problem if you're writing alongside serialization is that the chance of plotholes increases a lot, you might run out of ideas along the way or similar things. Or you might regret a decision you made early in the story later on. For example you might regret killing off a character. If you write a story beforehand, you don't have any of these problems.

If you run out of ideas, you can just make the story shorter, move stuff around, etc. If you suddenly feel like character x should instead survive, you can just change it. If you suddenly create a plothole by a decision you made later in the story, you can simply change the early story so that there is no plothole anymore.

You're right that a mix of preplanning and writing on the go is what some mangaka do, but most of them probably mainly write while serialization and only had the beginning planned out to a certain point plus what they want the end to look like.

Take Naruto for example, Kishimoto only had probably the last few chapters planned out from the start. However he revealed back during Jump Festa 2014 that he still had to figure out how to defeat Madara, 11 months before the manga ended. I think it was a similar case for Bleach, where Kubo said he made the last chapter the way he had always planned.

I think in both cases, the final villain fights and the last arc in general most likely weren't planned out beforehand, but while writing the story instead. And in both cases there was a decline at some point and more plotholes the closer both manga came to their end.

One Piece in comparison may have a few minor plotholes, but so far I can't think of any major ones.

Of course a manga needs to be entertaining, but I feel like especially plotholes take away from that enjoyment.

Its not some mangaka, most mangaka do this. Even Oda is doing this right now. He's writing as he's going but the difference is that he's looking in terms of years ahead whereas most mangaka can only afford to look months ahead at the most. That's why Oda can afford to make WCI this long and can promise to get to Wano this year or next year or whenever he gets there. He's writing as he's serializing but because he's got years he can refine his story. We've seen the notebooks in Jump Ryu. I'll bet that WCI was planned during Fishman Island or around that time but nothing was put into name format. He most probably designed everything and had an outline and once he got to WCI, he finalized everything.

Horikoshi also changed the result of the Sports festival around 2-3 weeks before the chapter was set to be released and as a result we got all this Bakugou development. Your Madara example is also pretty standard. If anything, Kishimoto had a decent amount of time to resolve the storyline, its just that at that point everything had to come full circle since Kaguya was introduced and thus we ended up with that lukewarm ending. Sure it might have been different if he had planned it out years before but weekly mangaka don't have that luxury. I'd venture that he did plan it out years before but again, once he actually began putting stuff in name format and drawing the manuscript, execution failed at which point no amount of planning will completely dig you out of the hole.

 

[De La Croissant]

Yeah, I think he had the story written down three years in advance if I remember right. What I really liked was how he made the story so it could've ended with

Spoiler: Spoiler

the children just escaping from Gracefield

if the manga had been cancelled early.

Spoiler

I really thought the whole manga would be about the escape from Gracefield.

Horikoshi also changed the result of the Sports festival around 2-3 weeks before the chapter was set to be released and as a result we got all this Bakugou development.

Spoiler

I also remember him saying that if Todoroki was the champion, as was the initial plan, his change would be too fast and unnatural. Good choice, I hate it when a character completely changes his perspective after a catharsis (in one chapter he has problems with his past, in the other he is already healed and happy).

 

[Doughboy]

Spoiler

I also remember him saying that if Todoroki was the champion, as was the initial plan, his change would be too fast and unnatural. Good choice, I hate it when a character completely changes his perspective after a catharsis (in one chapter he has problems with his past, in the other he is already healed and happy).

Fam this exact thing happened in Black Clover:

Spoiler

the character Luck, who had childhood trauma affecting the way he acts, was resolved in one episode with Asta saying like 3 words to him. What in the world? It turned me off bigly to his character. Noelle kinda the same with how fast she got cool with the Black Bulls, she went from calling Asta an insect to holding hands with them in one episode.

Even a character as flawed as Erza had childhood trauma that wasn't resolved until way into the story.

 

[TheEnhancedExe]

^ In an interview (might be somewhat lost in translation). The editor says TPN is half way done. If that is true then the entire series will only have ~20 volumes which is less than 200 chapters.

I think some people stated it was a mistranslation and it was only the turning point of the arc. Either could be right. But a mistranslation makes more sense to me since there's so much stuff left to do, which I doubt can be done until chapter 200.

Spoiler

Getting out of Goldy Pond.
Meeting up with Norman, which probably means Norman escaping by himself.
Finding a way to the human world, which will probably take quite some time.
Returning to get Phil and the others back.
Breaking the promise in the meantime, which most definitely results in a conflict between humans and demons. How it ends, idk, maybe a somewhat peaceful world with humans and demons living in coexistance without any farms?

I definitely can't see all of that happening in 70 or even 120 chapters, considering the editor statement was around chapter 74-75 I believe. And even taking into consideration that there most definitely will be additional arcs we aren't even aware of yet, it might even go way further beyond.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 27, 2018 ---

Its not some mangaka, most mangaka do this. Even Oda is doing this right now. He's writing as he's going but the difference is that he's looking in terms of years ahead whereas most mangaka can only afford to look months ahead at the most. That's why Oda can afford to make WCI this long and can promise to get to Wano this year or next year or whenever he gets there. He's writing as he's serializing but because he's got years he can refine his story. We've seen the notebooks in Jump Ryu. I'll bet that WCI was planned during Fishman Island or around that time but nothing was put into name format. He most probably designed everything and had an outline and once he got to WCI, he finalized everything.

Horikoshi also changed the result of the Sports festival around 2-3 weeks before the chapter was set to be released and as a result we got all this Bakugou development. Your Madara example is also pretty standard. If anything, Kishimoto had a decent amount of time to resolve the storyline, its just that at that point everything had to come full circle since Kaguya was introduced and thus we ended up with that lukewarm ending. Sure it might have been different if he had planned it out years before but weekly mangaka don't have that luxury. I'd venture that he did plan it out years before but again, once he actually began putting stuff in name format and drawing the manuscript, execution failed at which point no amount of planning will completely dig you out of the hole.

I don't think most mangaka do this. Oda and Horikoshi definitely wrote a story in advance and most definitely already know who the final villains is. On the other hand manga like Shokugeki no Souma or Black Clover don't do this. Tabata basically confirmed it in an interview and it is noticeable in both manga that sometimes situations spontaneously change nearly out of nowhere.

For example Shokugeki no Souma

Spoiler

was pretty monotone for about 40 chapters where we had the same judges, when suddenly completely out of nowhere Azami became a judge. I mean, this might've actually been preplanned for a long time. However the fact that everything was monotone for so long makes me think it either wasn't written completely in advance or they just suddenly decided to change things up because of bad survey results or sth like that.

Similar stuff happened when Souma vs Hayama was dragged out and suddenly out of nowhere Jouichiro appeared and the story spontaneously just moved into a completely different direction.

This might just be me misinterpreting stuff though. Of course all mangaja definitely plan out quite a lot of stuff in advance, but some of them probably decide the way how they reach the end while the manga is getting serialized. You might be right and there are more mangaka who plan out nearly the whole story. We probably won't know unless most of them actually stated it during interviews. I haven't read any interviews with any of the Souma mangaka for example.

 

[Obitooooo]

I do not think that neverland will have 20 volumen [ 25- 30], also I think it's time that we stop taking into account what the editors say, when even what the authors say is not true

 

[SharkBait]

Doesnt really feel like there is *still so much* to do in Neverland. Unless the writer somehow decides to punish Emma like the god of the israelites did and make them wander the desert for 40 years...then I cant see no other way for Neverland to last 25+ volumes.

People hate stories to last long yet they somehow want Neverland to last 20 years, unreal.

 

[iceemperor]

I don't think most mangaka do this. Oda and Horikoshi definitely wrote a story in advance and most definitely already know who the final villains is. On the other hand manga like Shokugeki no Souma or Black Clover don't do this. Tabata basically confirmed it in an interview and it is noticeable in both manga that sometimes situations spontaneously change nearly out of nowhere.

For example Shokugeki no Souma

Spoiler

was pretty monotone for about 40 chapters where we had the same judges, when suddenly completely out of nowhere Azami became a judge. I mean, this might've actually been preplanned for a long time. However the fact that everything was monotone for so long makes me think it either wasn't written completely in advance or they just suddenly decided to change things up because of bad survey results or sth like that.

Similar stuff happened when Souma vs Hayama was dragged out and suddenly out of nowhere Jouichiro appeared and the story spontaneously just moved into a completely different direction.

This might just be me misinterpreting stuff though. Of course all mangaja definitely plan out quite a lot of stuff in advance, but some of them probably decide the way how they reach the end while the manga is getting serialized. You might be right and there are more mangaka who plan out nearly the whole story. We probably won't know unless most of them actually stated it during interviews. I haven't read any interviews with any of the Souma mangaka for example.

You said it yourself, they brought up Azami probably because of bad rankings and dropping sales. Azami being involved was most likely planned however it was probably moved up, by both bad rankings and the editor change. It could also be a change of pace but that's to be seen. Its what Soma does after this match that I'm looking forward to, the consequences of this 2.5 year saga.

Final villains being planned in advance isn't evidence of having a pre-planned story. Its again just evidence of having an outline. Oda introduced the supernovas halfway through the story after a conversation with the editor that Luffy should probably have something akin to a rival(s). Oda came up with them in around 4-5 hours and now Law is an integral part of the story. I don't think Law existed as a character in Oda's mind back during post-Alabasta when Doflamingo was first introduced. This is Oda writing on the go. Oda pre-planning is having the SWs split up on Sabaody, which was supposedly planned back during or post-Enies Lobby. Oda is able to write everything is such a way so that it seems seamless. The stories that seem "spontaneous" are mangaka being much more "clumsy" at executing it seamlessly.

 

[TyVip]

Final villains being planned in advance isn't evidence of having a pre-planned story. Its again just evidence of having an outline. Oda introduced the supernovas halfway through the story after a conversation with the editor that Luffy should probably have something akin to a rival(s). Oda came up with them in around 4-5 hours and now Law is an integral part of the story. I don't think Law existed as a character in Oda's mind back during post-Alabasta when Doflamingo was first introduced. This is Oda writing on the go. Oda pre-planning is having the SWs split up on Sabaody, which was supposedly planned back during or post-Enies Lobby. Oda is able to write everything is such a way so that it seems seamless. The stories that seem "spontaneous" are mangaka being much more "clumsy" at executing it seamlessly.

Law does not existed when Doflamingo first introduce, but the Supernova was planned for the New World. Oda just introduced them in Saboudy to make it interesting.

The thing with Oda is that you not really sure if he plants a seed here and there to go back to it later (backtracking), OR he intentionally plants a seed here and there as foreshadowing (thing like A$CE, Lola, Usopp's lies). His EXECUTION is just too good.

The perfect example right now is the current WCI arc. Goda plants seeds throughout the entire arc so when it is blossoming right now readers don't think it is an asspull.

It looks really simple on the surface, but no other mangaka can pull it off like Oda.

*I am agreeing with you at the same time i'm not.

 

[OfficialHxH]

Ima be honest I miss the TOC guy or "Mr. Barre" as 5ch calls him (via: google) lol

Im just hoping hxh isnt going on hiatus this week

 

[Tamil]

My worries about Kimetsu are being abolished, loving the direction of the current arc.