Discussion Elizabeth

[MrSchmitty7]

About the indura feat, it still isn’t a fair comparison for another reason and that reason is the amount of effort used.

Elizabeth from the start poured all of her effort into a single attack, and as a result passed out afterwards. Ludoshel didn’t because he did not pass out and he even managed to tank hits, showing that he still had energy and wasn’t drained. So it would make sense that her attacks would look better when she is using all of her might and would also explain why she is wincing and sweating buckets from not even taking damage.

 

[OtakuFreak]

About the indura feat, it still isn’t a fair comparison for another reason and that reason is the amount of effort used.

Of course it isn't. Because its the best feat to prove the whole Elizabeth > AA, so we have to make silly excuses in order to deny such a feat. Am I correct?

Elizabeth from the start poured all of her effort into a single attack

So?

Ludoshel didn’t because he did not pass out and he even managed to tank hits, showing that he still had energy and wasn’t drained.

Where's the relevance?

Ludoshel tanking hits doesn't change the fact that his magic power did absolutely nothing, whilst Elizabeth's did.

Sounds like a desperate argument to me

So it would make sense that her attacks would look better when she is using all of her might and would also explain why she is wincing and sweating buckets from not even taking damage.

It doesn't matter.

Ludoshel was going all out with his ark. His entire attitude and reactions to his magic failing support the argument of him going all out. Sure, he wasn't sweating and wincing in comparison to Elizabeth, but that's because there was a struggle between both opponents. Elizabeth only started to sweat and struggle once they reacted to her light with a Phase 2 Indura, THEN she struggled. Ludoshel never struggled or ''sweated'' from the beginning because he was downright out of his league.

If there's a struggle from both oppositions, then its clear that the engagement is a close one. Elizabeth was sweating and being pushed back slowly, whilst the Indura were desperately pushing back, almost at the brink of being purified.

Ludoshel couldn't even make 1 Indura at Phase 1 struggle + his attitude of wanting Elizabeth's power and was more comfortable with her presence in comparison to 2AA pretty much proves that Elizabeth is superior to them in my opinion.

Or at least, as a minimum, it supports and proves that Elizabeth has stronger magic (ark) to the AA's, which would make sense considering she has greater feats in that area. I mean, Elizabeth's strongest spell makes the entire battlefield be illuminated and makes the Indura's pay attention. Ludoshel? The Indura's didn't even pay attention lol

 

[T25]

No. Because we virtually know exactly how strong all of them are already.

Tarmiel said he and Sariel are a little stronger than 88K 2C Estarossa.

So whatever kinda point you’re trying to make completely fell through.

There is no speculation as to the power of the Archangels. Ludo is stronger than both of them. Mael is stronger than Ludo at late Morning, and Mel at high noon.

Done.

Isn’t Eli’s magic power compared to them in question? Defeating high level opponents has been a reason used to justify why Eli is weaker than her peers. So I asked if that same justification has been used for said peers. You have not answered that yes or no question.

What confuses me is that people accept that she has considerable magical ability but then the same people renounce, degrade and disregard her magical displays. Ludo shot an ark blast, that’s advantageous enough to overcome massive differences in PL against a darkness using opponent according to general consensus, to the face of deri, who watched it coming mind you, yet only managed to move the top half of her body and not uproot her from her footing in the slightest before he proceeded to scream for assistance.

Given this display beforehand, when Eli proceeded to use a large amount of magic power to attack the source of their power of the 2 of them at the same time, they proceeded to grow even stronger than when they had proven difficult for the AA. Despite the fact that she had taken on two of them at the same time in a state stronger than beforehand her efforts are said by people to be insignificant simply because her attack was not intended to cause bleeding. So why does this display of magic of arguably greater magnitude than her peers garner her the reputation of being significantly weaker than her peers? Because her PL may be lower even though she may or may not have a higher magic stat? Because she has not displayed the combat diversity of her peers? If that’s the case why does that warrant the degradation of the magic capabilities she has shown? The AA has raw power they directed towards martial ability. Eli has raw power she directed towards the aid of people. Does that necessarily mean her raw power is nothing compared to her peers?

 

[OtakuFreak]

But if you think that Elizabeth can do this to a serious AM Meliodas, then her other feats make no sense because her Ark did nothing to Mael.

Her ark did nothing to Mael (or Estarossa) because it was non-lethal.

She only intended to displace him, there was no intention or an attempt to hurt him.

The only hint that maybe Elizabeth's ark should've hurt Estarossa is through the AA's comment, but considering how they only saw him escape the ark, and not witness the entire situation, means their comment isn't that credit worthy.

As for the AM slap. I believe Elizabeth does have the power to hurt Meliodas, but it would never work in battle because he would just outspeed her, dodge it, block it even, or full counter.

But still, a weakened Elizabeth minimally hurting a 142k passive demon is something to consider before you go ''lol 30k Elizabeth''.

Elizabeth cheap shoting Meliodas ?

You mean how Derriere ''cheap shotted Elizabeth''?

But yet everyone is quick to agree with that feat and acknowledge it as proof of Elizabeth being ''weak''.

Stop with the exceptions

 

[Inuhanyou123]

There's a lot of selective reading going on.

But the fact of the matter is, what Elizabeth has shown so far puts her in archangel territory by default. The fact that her magics can actually compete with higher level commandments...There is no way to refute it. I just want to know what the people who are arguing so hard against this will say when and if she is confirmed to have a level of power near the AA's level.

Will you still say there is no evidence, or accept what we have been saying about the evidence you refuse to acknowledge or try to dismiss?

There are actually people saying the Supreme Deity's daughter has a power lever of 30,000...without any evidence whatsoever

 

[Demonspeed]

Her ark did nothing to Mael (or Estarossa) because it was non-lethal.

She only intended to displace him, there was no intention or an attempt to hurt him.

The only hint that maybe Elizabeth's ark should've hurt Estarossa is through the AA's comment, but considering how they only saw him escape the ark, and not witness the entire situation, means their comment isn't that credit worthy.

As for the AM slap. I believe Elizabeth does have the power to hurt Meliodas, but it would never work in battle because he would just outspeed her, dodge it, block it even, or full counter.

But still, a weakened Elizabeth minimally hurting a 142k passive demon is something to consider before you go ''lol 30k Elizabeth''.



You mean how Derriere ''cheap shotted Elizabeth''?

But yet everyone is quick to agree with that feat and acknowledge it as proof of Elizabeth being ''weak''.

Stop with the exceptions

We said it many times already, but there was no implication that it was "Non-lethal" in any way. FKS even confirmed it. Why would she even hold back? She had no reason to. Moreover, Estarossa also took the Archangels's Arks after that. She was not holding back.

She did a classic Ark and then she moved it, inside an Ark you still feel the power of the attack.

 

[OtakuFreak]

We said it many times already, but there was no implication that it was "Non-lethal" in any way.

Huh?

Okay then. Let me ask you this.

What makes the ark Elizabeth used considered to be lethal?

FKS even confirmed it.

Where?

And from what I understand his word isn't law.

Why would she even hold back?

Because she's a strong pacifist and her stronger intention was to stop Estarossa from getting to Derriere? Hence her whole speech of ''I won't let you get the commandments'' whilst holding her hand in front of Derriere in a protective manner?

There was no intention in that moment of Elizabeth wanting to hurt, or even kill Estarossa. She wanted to stop Meliodas from becoming Demon King, and by protecting Derriere she is partially moving towards that objective.

She had no reason to. Moreover, Estarossa also took the Archangels's Arks after that. She was not holding back.

Sure, logically Elizabeth had no reason to hold herself back, but considering her intentions and personality, its expected for Elizabeth to hold herself back when it comes to hurting other people.

Plus, Estarossa resisting the AA's ark mean's nothing when they weren't at full power, so you can't really compare it to Elizabeth.

She did a classic Ark and then she moved it, inside an Ark you still feel the power of the attack.

Nowhere is that stated.

 

[T25]

We said it many times already, but there was no implication that it was "Non-lethal" in any way. FKS even confirmed it. Why would she even hold back? She had no reason to. Moreover, Estarossa also took the Archangels's Arks after that. She was not holding back.

She did a classic Ark and then she moved it, inside an Ark you still feel the power of the attack.

The fact that when she tossed the ark encasing estarossa it slammed through a mountain does attest, to whatever degree, that she was in fact not being completely considerate of the impact but just as you have stated we are not aware of wether it was truly intended to be damaging either. You ask why she would hold back but you are fully and knowingly aware of her nature I trust. Her nature is also constantly used as justification for claims regarding her be it in her defense or in opposition. It has been well established that despite her opponents demeanor and actions against her she has not once desired or shown desired lethal force against anyone. Case in point, deri and mon. The two assassins that had lethally injected her with poison.To ask why she would hold back or at the very least not intend to harm, I cannot help but see it as a foolish question. That is not in fact me stating that she did hold back but merely attesting to a characters nature that we have all seen.

You have also stated that inside an ark, one will feel the power of the attack. I believe this has already been disproven. Eli that had been knocked unconscious, was afterwards encased in an ark by the AA protecting against external entities i.e. burning Mel and having no affect on Eli thereby displaying an ark of a different use.

 

[Shutensatsu]

Isn’t Eli’s magic power compared to them in question? Defeating high level opponents has been a reason used to justify why Eli is weaker than her peers. So I asked if that same justification has been used for said peers. You have not answered that yes or no question.

Sariel and Tarmiel bested Estarossa twice at 60K and 88K.

Ludo defeated Fraudrin, Galan, Normal Monspiet, and Normal Derrerie in like 5 seconds.

Eli proved she could beat Mera without help, or failing and getting rescued. Which means she can beat Low Level commandmnets.

So yes. They are all being judged the same.

What confuses me is that people accept that she has considerable magical ability but then the same people renounce, degrade and disregard her magical displays. Ludo shot an ark blast, that’s advantageous enough to overcome massive differences in PL against a darkness using opponent according to general consensus, to the face of deri, who watched it coming mind you, yet only managed to move the top half of her body and not uproot her from her footing in the slightest before he proceeded to scream for assistance.

Given this display beforehand, when Eli proceeded to use a large amount of magic power to attack the source of their power of the 2 of them at the same time, they proceeded to grow even stronger than when they had proven difficult for the AA. Despite the fact that she had taken on two of them at the same time in a state stronger than beforehand her efforts are said by people to be insignificant simply because her attack was not intended to cause bleeding. So why does this display of magic of arguably greater magnitude than her peers garner her the reputation of being significantly weaker than her peers? Because her PL may be lower even though she may or may not have a higher magic stat? Because she has not displayed the combat diversity of her peers? If that’s the case why does that warrant the degradation of the magic capabilities she has shown? The AA has raw power they directed towards martial ability. Eli has raw power she directed towards the aid of people. Does that necessarily mean her raw power is nothing compared to her peers?

Ludo used ark on her and it failed.

Her “feat” against the Indura would be a lot more impressive if she used the same attack as him on them, but it was actually effective. Something like that would clearly tell us she’s stronger.

Or he used his strongest attack and failed, while her’s at least held them down for a second. Nothing like that happened.

Elizabeth did not use ark on them. She poured her heart and soul into something entirely different, and fainted afterwords, exhausting all her power.

Even that failed with her own power by itself, and she needed help from two archangels to push through.

Eli’s ark failed against Esta, whose like half as strong as an Indura.

So how is Ludo a failure because his ark didn’t work on a Indura, but Eli is Mel level when her ark failed on someone even weaker?

If she has to pour her heart and soul into any attack to pin down a high ranking demon, she’s obviously not that strong.

Mel is not struggling to down someone 114K. 114K Escanor is not struggling to down some 60K fodder demon. Chandler is not struggling to incapacitate multiple sins that are all commandmnet Level by now with his magic.

Ludo is causally disposing of 50K commandments. And getting overwhelmed by 100K indura’s without using his grace, and never being decisively defeated.

Eli is casually disposing of 30K commandmnets, getting shut down constantly by any demon over 50K, and when pouring her all into a single attack is able to hold a high rank demon in place for 10 seconds before failing decisively.

When Zaratras poured his all into a single attack it was enough to effect a high rank demon 10x stronger than him.

You’re taking a massive outlier attack like that which exhausted all her power(and failed on its own), and using it as a basis for saying she’s 100K.

It’s like saying Zaratras is 30k because he effected Fraudrin by exhausting all his power.

It’s ridiclous.

 

[Demonspeed]

Huh?

Okay then. Let me ask you this.

What makes the ark Elizabeth used considered to be lethal?



Where?

And from what I understand his word isn't law.



Because she's a strong pacifist and her stronger intention was to stop Estarossa from getting to Derriere? Hence her whole speech of ''I won't let you get the commandments'' whilst holding her hand in front of Derriere in a protective manner?

There was no intention in that moment of Elizabeth wanting to hurt, or even kill Estarossa. She wanted to stop Meliodas from becoming Demon King, and by protecting Derriere she is partially moving towards that objective.



Sure, logically Elizabeth had no reason to hold herself back, but considering her intentions and personality, its expected for Elizabeth to hold herself back when it comes to hurting other people.

Plus, Estarossa resisting the AA's ark mean's nothing when they weren't at full power, so you can't really compare it to Elizabeth.



Nowhere is that stated.

Elizabeth had absolutely no reason to hold back. No reason at all, it is simple. In the very thread about this chapter, FKS made it clear that they were praising Estarossa for resisting it, that the Japanese language wasn't implying that she was holding back in any way. Besides, it doesn't change what I said about Sariel and Tarmiel's attacks. Yes, they were not at full power, but I consider them stronger than Elizabeth even like that and they were two. Spiteful Saint should also be more powerful than a basic Ark.

It's easy to say that it was non-lethal and that she didn't intend to hurt him. She knew about Estarossa's recent kill and knows how dangerous he was, he said he was going to kill Derrierie, she even thought that he wanted the Commandments to turn her beloved Meliodas into the DK, she was so annoyed that she was unwilling to lsiten to him. Elizabeth "holding back" makes absolutely no sense.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Of course it isn't. Because its the best feat to prove the whole Elizabeth > AA, so we have to make silly excuses in order to deny such a feat. Am I correct?



So?



Where's the relevance?

Ludoshel tanking hits doesn't change the fact that his magic power did absolutely nothing, whilst Elizabeth's did.

Sounds like a desperate argument to me



It doesn't matter.

Ludoshel was going all out with his ark. His entire attitude and reactions to his magic failing support the argument of him going all out. Sure, he wasn't sweating and wincing in comparison to Elizabeth, but that's because there was a struggle between both opponents. Elizabeth only started to sweat and struggle once they reacted to her light with a Phase 2 Indura, THEN she struggled. Ludoshel never struggled or ''sweated'' from the beginning because he was downright out of his league.

If there's a struggle from both oppositions, then its clear that the engagement is a close one. Elizabeth was sweating and being pushed back slowly, whilst the Indura were desperately pushing back, almost at the brink of being purified.

Ludoshel couldn't even make 1 Indura at Phase 1 struggle + his attitude of wanting Elizabeth's power and was more comfortable with her presence in comparison to 2AA pretty much proves that Elizabeth is superior to them in my opinion.

Or at least, as a minimum, it supports and proves that Elizabeth has stronger magic (ark) to the AA's, which would make sense considering she has greater feats in that area. I mean, Elizabeth's strongest spell makes the entire battlefield be illuminated and makes the Indura's pay attention. Ludoshel? The Indura's didn't even pay attention lol

The difference is power used.

If Ludoshel used 60 decent power in one attack for example and Elizabeth used basically 100 percent of her energy, odds are one attack will be superior to the other. It's the same principle as King's spear. The form that draws out the most magic/energy does the most damage. Ludoshel taking hits is just to show that he didn't deplete all his energy into the indura like Elizabeth did. Regardless of which phase they struggled in, it doesn't change the fact that Ludoshel did not pour out majority of his magic into an attack. So why compare the two.

You're comparing Elizabeth's maximum output to Ludoshel's non maximum. That in and of itself is a skewed test. Plus in reality virtually no one would compare a test that wasn't even.

Plus Elizabeth powered up her attack from the start before launch, ludo just launched basic attacks

 

[T25]

Sariel and Tarmiel bested Estarossa twice at 60K and 88K.

Ludo defeated Fraudrin, Galan, Normal Monspiet, and Normal Derrerie in like 5 seconds.

Eli proved she could beat Mera without help, or failing and getting rescued. Which means she can beat Low Level commandmnets.

So yes. They are all being judged the same.


Ludo used ark on her and it failed.

Her “feat” against the Indura would be a lot more impressive if she used the same attack as him on them, but it was actually effective. Something like that would clearly tell us she’s stronger.

Or he used his strongest attack and failed, while her’s at least held them down for a second. Nothing like that happened.

Elizabeth did not use ark on them. She poured her heart and soul into something entirely different, and fainted afterwords, exhausting all her power.

Even that failed with her own power by itself, and she needed help from two archangels to push through.

Eli’s ark failed against Esta, whose like half as strong as an Indura.

So how is Ludo a failure because his ark didn’t work on a Indura, but Eli is Mel level when her ark failed on someone even weaker?

If she has to pour her heart and soul into any attack to pin down a high ranking demon, she’s obviously not that strong.

Mel is not struggling to down someone 114K. 114K Escanor is not struggling to down some 60K fodder demon. Chandler is not struggling to incapacitate multiple sins that are all commandmnet Level by now with his magic.

Ludo is causally disposing of 50K commandments. And getting overwhelmed by 100K indura’s without using his grace, and never being decisively defeated.

Eli is casually disposing of 30K commandmnets, getting shut down constantly by any demon over 50K, and when pouring her all into a single attack is able to hold a high rank demon in place for 10 seconds before failing decisively.

When Zaratras poured his all into a single attack it was enough to effect a high rank demon 10x stronger than him.

You’re taking a massive outlier attack like that which exhausted all her power(and failed on its own), and using it as a basis for saying she’s 100K.

It’s like saying Zaratras is 30k because he effected Fraudrin by exhausting all his power.

It’s ridiclous.

Sir when have I once affirmed and supported a power level I had personally decided to give Eli?

You have misunderstood my intentions. I questioned the degradation of her character and displays of magic. You have constantly stated that Eli has been rendered powerless by all opponents over 50k. How many of these opponents has she come into conflict with? The term “shut down” is what you used but how many times has Eli done something that was “shut down” to said opponents? I have already stated the context and actions during the indura situation. What ludo did, how effective attacks were, end results. We’re these unclear in my comment?

I believe you held opposition towards inuhanyou123s comments on Elis displays so far. The gist of which you said those comments tweaked Eli’s actions to be more impressive than they were. If you did not like the slight altering of info why does your reply to me leave out the fact that Eli was opposing two opponents both of which were arguably and apparently more difficult and powerful than 2c estarossa? Why did you also leave out that the 2 circumstances involved an Eli of 2 different body’s and level of power considering that there is justifiable reason to speculate whether the two hold and can produce the same level of power?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 6, 2018 ---

Elizabeth had absolutely no reason to hold back. No reason at all, it is simple. In the very thread about this chapter, FKS made it clear that they were praising Estarossa for resisting it, that the Japanese language wasn't implying that she was holding back in any way. Besides, it doesn't change what I said about Sariel and Tarmiel's attacks. Yes, they were not at full power, but I consider them stronger than Elizabeth even like that and they were two. Spiteful Saint should also be more powerful than a basic Ark.

It's easy to say that it was non-lethal and that she didn't intend to hurt him. She knew about Estarossa's recent kill and knows how dangerous he was, he said he was going to kill Derrierie, she even thought that he wanted the Commandments to turn her beloved Meliodas into the DK, she was so annoyed that she was unwilling to lsiten to him. Elizabeth "holding back" makes absolutely no sense.

Sorry if this seems a bit attention seeking but I have to ask whether you read my comment regarding this and if you see any fallacy in the logic I tried to present?

 

[Demonspeed]

Sorry if this seems a bit attention seeking but I have to ask whether you read my comment regarding this and if you see any fallacy in the logic I tried to present?

I just read it. And yes, I am taking in account her nature when I am saying that. That nature of her is being used here to claim that she was holding back but there are limits here. She never tried to harm the assassins who poisoned her and the situation was totally different.

When she doesn't fight, she is too much of a pacifist, and when she is annoyed and attack, she is holding back . That's just ridiculous.

"Elizabeth is a nice person so she held back even though in front of her was a murderer, who she thought was going to make things worse for her lover" isn't going to convince me.

 

[T25]

I just read it. And yes, I am taking in account her nature when I am saying that. That nature of her is being used here to claim that she was holding back but there are limits here. She never tried to harm the assassins who poisoned her and the situation was totally different.

When she doesn't fight, she is too much of a pacifist, and when she is annoyed and attack, she is holding back . That's just ridiculous.

"Elizabeth is a nice person so she held back even though in front of her was a murderer, who she thought was going to make things worse for her lover" isn't going to convince me.

Understandably so. However this was the second time she came face to face with him. The first instance she had shown no outward hostility towards him despite the fact that she had stated that he was Mel’s killer. In addition, when she had watched Mel suppress zel and esta, after he had persisted for a short time she had pleaded for him to stop. These were enemies towards her. A person nature is a persons nature. She is kind and slow to anger. I do in fact understand your statement however I find it even more illogical that a person of such temperament and nature would resort to lethal force so easily. Does my view seem logical? Furthermore, it would seem that the real lethal force of an ark would come from two methods: blunt force and bursting. However why then had she done neither and had sent him quite a distance away instead?

 

[OtakuFreak]

Elizabeth had absolutely no reason to hold back.

No reason at all, it is simple

Sure, but this idea contradicts the whole character of Elizabeth.

She's had assassins, holy knights, and other people purposefully try to hurt her and other people close to her, YET she generally holds herself back if it means she has to hurt people.

Look at Hendrickson, she had more concern about protecting the other people around her (even after Hawk ''died'') than outright eliminating Hendrickson, who was the enemy.

With Derriere, she was more concerned about protecting Zaratras than outright eliminating the ten commandments, and even pleaded for them to stop taking lives and questioned their morality.

Even with memories, she ignored Ludoshel's request and decided to risk her own life for the enemy in a literal war, who had become dangerous beasts that could easily kill her if not controlled properly.

Against Melascula? Purify her form rather than outright kill her.

Against Chandler? Heal the party rather than fire ark at him or do literally anything else.

Against Meliodas? Sure, she slapped him and had the intent to hurt him, but its not like she used her strongest attack against him, and it was only after trying to speak to Meliodas and realising she had no chance at convincing him to stop.

Against Estarossa? She had the intention to protect Derriere. And even when he tried to kill her, she never expressed the desire to hurt him and even asked him to join her in stopping Meliodas from becoming Demon King.

Saying Elizabeth had ''absolutely no reason to hold back'' is correct from a logical standpoint. But this statement directly ignores Elizabeth's character as a whole and how consistently she has been to her values of peace and routes of least conflict. Heck, she even said to the fodder human who disrespected her (can't remember his name lol) that she understands how naive her thinking is, but if possible, she would like to reduce the amount of death/pain that happens in the war, which is supported by the fact that at every turn, she's trying to minimise conflict (e.g Tell Fodder Demons to stop pointless conflict, trying to help Estarossa etc)

In the very thread about this chapter, FKS made it clear that they were praising Estarossa for resisting it, that the Japanese language wasn't implying that she was holding back in any way.

Sure, the translation was correct about what the Archangels were saying. But it doesn't mean its correct if you actually look at the evidence behind such a statement. Plus, I'm sure we can both agree that actions will triumph statements in every case, as in previous examples the fandom has been let-down when trusting statements.

As I've already proven the consistency of Elizabeth's character (with or without memories) when it comes to her pacifism and routes of least conflict. It isn't ridiculous to say that the ark Elizabeth used was ''non-lethal'' or of a weaker offensive nature. After all, she has already demonstrated the ability to use an ark blast of a full offensive nature against Meliodas. And even used a miniature ark bubble on Derriere's hand and damaged her by compressing it/making it explode, and this was without her memories. But yet, against Estarossa she used an ark of a weaker offensive nature. She never directly compressed or attempted to make the ark bubble ''explode'' in any way. She simply displaced Estarossa, and let him be in it. And we know she has the ability to do that because Nerobasta (an inferior Goddess) attempted to do it against Derriere, and Elizabeth did it in a weaker mind-set.

So since we've acknowledged that Elizabeth's ark usage was of a weaker offensive nature, and even ''non-lethal'' to a degree. Let's look at her intention, to see whether or not she was truly intending to hurt him or not. Looking at the chapter. we once again see Elizabeth behave in a protective manner in front of Derriere and only speak about stopping Estarossa from completing his so told objective of ''collecting the commandments''. So when she used ark, her intention was to stop Estarossa, and protect Derriere simultaneously, and that's supported by the fact that she displaced Estarossa away from the commandment that he needs to make Meliodas Demon King. (Elizabeth believed that was his intention at the time).

Even at a later date, when Estarossa tries to kill Elizabeth and is over-taken by the darkness of the commandments, she shows concern and morality for the so called ''murderer'' - proving to a degree that her intention during the ark bubble moment wasn't to hurt him at all. There was 0 intention to hurt him. If you disagree, that's fine, but please show me the page or speech Elizabeth did that shows she had the intention of hurting him or even killing him.

You might be wondering why intention matters, or why I'm even bringing it up. There have been multiple instances where ark usage against demons has not harmed them but even healed them based on the caster's intentions. Elizabeth used one giant ark on the entirety of Liones, and healed all of the citizens and even a demon like Meliodas (who was right next to her) but happened to hurt Demon-Hendrickson with the very same ark rather than healing him. Showing that intention is very important when it comes to the caster of ark. If the caster doesn't have the intention to harm somebody, then there abilities aren't going to, sounds logical right?

Since we've established that Elizabeth's usage of a weaker ark + no intention to harm Estarossa and we can both agree that actions speak louder than words in every situation, Sariel's comment truly means nothing to me, especially when you consider that he wasn't inside the dome of darkness with Derriere and Elizabeth. Sariel never saw her intention or what she was trying to achieve, and didn't see the entirety of the ark usage, but only when he exited it at the end.

So to me, Sariel's comment completely contradicts the logic and usage of Elizabeth's ark. She used an ark of a weaker offensive nature and never had the intention to hurt him, yet Sariel was surprised that Estarossa wasn't hurt by it? That doesn't make any sense regardless of how you try to argue it. Plus, Sariel has a little bit of bias for Elizabeth, considering he respects her princess title, so he probably has a high expectation of her power and would expect damage regardless of the context.

If you want a comparison, its like saying Merlin is stronger than a 142k demon since she was able to neutralise Meliodas at one point... without completely acknowledging the context of such a feat.

Feel free to disagree, but where does Elizabeth show intention of harming him? Why does she use an ark bubble rather than a blast or anything else that would immediately hurt him? Well because she wants to protect Derriere and stop Estarossa from collecting the commandments, which is supported by her displacing him only.

TL.DR Elizabeth's ark was of a weaker nature + no intention to harm = Estarossa taking no damage = AA's comment is worthless.

The difference is power used.

Okay.

If Ludoshel used 60 decent power in one attack for example and Elizabeth used basically 100 percent of her energy, odds are one attack will be superior to the other. It's the same principle as King's spear. The form that draws out the most magic/energy does the most damage. Ludoshel taking hits is just to show that he didn't deplete all his energy into the indura like Elizabeth did.

Regardless of which phase they struggled in, it doesn't change the fact that Ludoshel did not pour out majority of his magic into an attack. So why compare the two.

Because he was going all out with his ark? He continuously used his ark against Derriere, and even acknowledged how much of a monster she was and how it was ''impossible'' for the Four Archangels to lose. Yet, you're implying he was holding back and not using 100% of his magic power?

That's ridiculous, just because he wasn't sweating like Elizabeth, doesn't mean he wasn't going all out with his ark. He just wasn't sweating because there was no struggle. Elizabeth only used one spell and continuously kept it active, and because there was a resistance on the Indura's

You're comparing Elizabeth's maximum output to Ludoshel's non maximum. That in and of itself is a skewed test. Plus in reality virtually no one would compare a test that wasn't even.

Where did you get the idea that Ludoshel wasn't at his maximum ark usage?

He wasn't holding back, as shown by his behaviour during the fight. He was neurotic, anxious and shocked at what the Indura were doing, and he even demonstrated disbelief. If he was holding back his true power (ark), he would've never shown such disbelief as he would still have a ''ace'' or strategy up his sleeve. And before you bring up the ''well he said he was going all out'' situation, that could be anything, and since Ludoshel has a power independent from his own (Flash), that's an entirely different discussion and not a fair comparison to Elizabeth. Plus, for all we know Ludoshel was about to do the Goddess version for Indura.

Ludoshel was going all out with his ark, he just wasn't sweating because he wasn't in a tug of war with the Indura. If Elizabeth's attack failed right away like Ludoshel's then she wouldn't have ''sweated''.

Plus Elizabeth powered up her attack from the start before launch, ludo just launched basic attacks

Powered up?

And I hardly call them basic. He was going all out and was using large scale ark's.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Sure, but this idea contradicts the whole character of Elizabeth.

She's had assassins, holy knights, and other people purposefully try to hurt her and other people close to her, YET she generally holds herself back if it means she has to hurt people.

Look at Hendrickson, she had more concern about protecting the other people around her (even after Hawk ''died'') than outright eliminating Hendrickson, who was the enemy.

With Derriere, she was more concerned about protecting Zaratras than outright eliminating the ten commandments, and even pleaded for them to stop taking lives and questioned their morality.

Even with memories, she ignored Ludoshel's request and decided to risk her own life for the enemy in a literal war, who had become dangerous beasts that could easily kill her if not controlled properly.

Against Melascula? Purify her form rather than outright kill her.

Against Chandler? Heal the party rather than fire ark at him or do literally anything else.

Against Meliodas? Sure, she slapped him and had the intent to hurt him, but its not like she used her strongest attack against him, and it was only after trying to speak to Meliodas and realising she had no chance at convincing him to stop.

Against Estarossa? She had the intention to protect Derriere. And even when he tried to kill her, she never expressed the desire to hurt him and even asked him to join her in stopping Meliodas from becoming Demon King.

Saying Elizabeth had ''absolutely no reason to hold back'' is correct from a logical standpoint. But this statement directly ignores Elizabeth's character as a whole and how consistently she has been to her values of peace and routes of least conflict. Heck, she even said to the fodder human who disrespected her (can't remember his name lol) that she understands how naive her thinking is, but if possible, she would like to reduce the amount of death/pain that happens in the war, which is supported by the fact that at every turn, she's trying to minimise conflict (e.g Tell Fodder Demons to stop pointless conflict, trying to help Estarossa etc)



Sure, the translation was correct about what the Archangels were saying. But it doesn't mean its correct if you actually look at the evidence behind such a statement. Plus, I'm sure we can both agree that actions will triumph statements in every case, as in previous examples the fandom has been let-down when trusting statements.

As I've already proven the consistency of Elizabeth's character (with or without memories) when it comes to her pacifism and routes of least conflict. It isn't ridiculous to say that the ark Elizabeth used was ''non-lethal'' or of a weaker offensive nature. After all, she has already demonstrated the ability to use an ark blast of a full offensive nature against Meliodas. And even used a miniature ark bubble on Derriere's hand and damaged her by compressing it/making it explode, and this was without her memories. But yet, against Estarossa she used an ark of a weaker offensive nature. She never directly compressed or attempted to make the ark bubble ''explode'' in any way. She simply displaced Estarossa, and let him be in it. And we know she has the ability to do that because Nerobasta (an inferior Goddess) attempted to do it against Derriere, and Elizabeth did it in a weaker mind-set.

So since we've acknowledged that Elizabeth's ark usage was of a weaker offensive nature, and even ''non-lethal'' to a degree. Let's look at her intention, to see whether or not she was truly intending to hurt him or not. Looking at the chapter. we once again see Elizabeth behave in a protective manner in front of Derriere and only speak about stopping Estarossa from completing his so told objective of ''collecting the commandments''. So when she used ark, her intention was to stop Estarossa, and protect Derriere simultaneously, and that's supported by the fact that she displaced Estarossa away from the commandment that he needs to make Meliodas Demon King. (Elizabeth believed that was his intention at the time).

Even at a later date, when Estarossa tries to kill Elizabeth and is over-taken by the darkness of the commandments, she shows concern and morality for the so called ''murderer'' - proving to a degree that her intention during the ark bubble moment wasn't to hurt him at all. There was 0 intention to hurt him. If you disagree, that's fine, but please show me the page or speech Elizabeth did that shows she had the intention of hurting him or even killing him.

You might be wondering why intention matters, or why I'm even bringing it up. There have been multiple instances where ark usage against demons has not harmed them but even healed them based on the caster's intentions. Elizabeth used one giant ark on the entirety of Liones, and healed all of the citizens and even a demon like Meliodas (who was right next to her) but happened to hurt Demon-Hendrickson with the very same ark rather than healing him. Showing that intention is very important when it comes to the caster of ark. If the caster doesn't have the intention to harm somebody, then there abilities aren't going to, sounds logical right?

Since we've established that Elizabeth's usage of a weaker ark + no intention to harm Estarossa and we can both agree that actions speak louder than words in every situation, Sariel's comment truly means nothing to me, especially when you consider that he wasn't inside the dome of darkness with Derriere and Elizabeth. Sariel never saw her intention or what she was trying to achieve, and didn't see the entirety of the ark usage, but only when he exited it at the end.

So to me, Sariel's comment completely contradicts the logic and usage of Elizabeth's ark. She used an ark of a weaker offensive nature and never had the intention to hurt him, yet Sariel was surprised that Estarossa wasn't hurt by it? That doesn't make any sense regardless of how you try to argue it. Plus, Sariel has a little bit of bias for Elizabeth, considering he respects her princess title, so he probably has a high expectation of her power and would expect damage regardless of the context.

If you want a comparison, its like saying Merlin is stronger than a 142k demon since she was able to neutralise Meliodas at one point... without completely acknowledging the context of such a feat.

Feel free to disagree, but where does Elizabeth show intention of harming him? Why does she use an ark bubble rather than a blast or anything else that would immediately hurt him? Well because she wants to protect Derriere and stop Estarossa from collecting the commandments, which is supported by her displacing him only.

TL.DR Elizabeth's ark was of a weaker nature + no intention to harm = Estarossa taking no damage = AA's comment is worthless.



Okay.







Because he was going all out with his ark? He continuously used his ark against Derriere, and even acknowledged how much of a monster she was and how it was ''impossible'' for the Four Archangels to lose. Yet, you're implying he was holding back and not using 100% of his magic power?

That's ridiculous, just because he wasn't sweating like Elizabeth, doesn't mean he wasn't going all out with his ark. He just wasn't sweating because there was no struggle. Elizabeth only used one spell and continuously kept it active, and because there was a resistance on the Indura's



Where did you get the idea that Ludoshel wasn't at his maximum ark usage?

He wasn't holding back, as shown by his behaviour during the fight. He was neurotic, anxious and shocked at what the Indura were doing, and he even demonstrated disbelief. If he was holding back his true power (ark), he would've never shown such disbelief as he would still have a ''ace'' or strategy up his sleeve. And before you bring up the ''well he said he was going all out'' situation, that could be anything, and since Ludoshel has a power independent from his own (Flash), that's an entirely different discussion and not a fair comparison to Elizabeth. Plus, for all we know Ludoshel was about to do the Goddess version for Indura.

Ludoshel was going all out with his ark, he just wasn't sweating because he wasn't in a tug of war with the Indura. If Elizabeth's attack failed right away like Ludoshel's then she wouldn't have ''sweated''.





Powered up?

And I hardly call them basic. He was going all out and was using large scale ark's.

That doesn’t make sense though. If Ludoshel is using his absolute maximum amount of power and isn’t running out of stamina even after taking a beating, then you’ve essentially made him have unlimited stamina.

And Elizabeth definitely powered up. None of her other purification spells have a charge up, meaning that on a basic level they can be used immediately, however this wasn’t a basic level.

 

[T25]

That doesn’t make sense though. If Ludoshel is using his absolute maximum amount of power and isn’t running out of stamina even after taking a beating, then you’ve essentially made him have unlimited stamina.

And Elizabeth definitely powered up. None of her other purification spells have a charge up, meaning that on a basic level they can be used immediately, however this wasn’t a basic level.

Why did Ludo yell for help?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Why did Ludo yell for help?

Because having Sariel and Tarmiel stand there and do nothing would’ve looked stupid?

 

[T25]

Because having Sariel and Tarmiel stand there and do nothing would’ve looked stupid?

I’m sorry is that your best thought? You can analyze and conclude stuff about characters actions and various little nuances thrown out in the story but that is the best response you are going to give me? All these views about why Eli’s power isn’t up to much, and this is it for ludo?

Usually I would assume that if you ask for help, you probably want help.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I’m sorry is that your best thought? You can analyze and conclude stuff about characters actions and various little nuances thrown out in the story but that is the best response you are going to give me? All these views about why Eli’s power isn’t up to much, and this is it for ludo?

Usually I would assume that if you ask for help, you probably want help.

It’s not stupid though. I can’t think of a single person that wouldn’t want to make their life easier by just getting some help and saving time and energy. Plus this has already happened beforehand in the past. It was confirmed that individually the sins could’ve handled gray demon Hendrickson 1 on 1, yet they still relied on each other. I mean even if you could beat two indura, who wants to do it by themselves?