One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Only commenting because there was 666 replies on this forum and I don't put up with that devil shit. #amen

have a good day ya'll

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Still he can harden his Haki to deflect damage. No reason why he choose to get hit and not use Haki to tank it. You know?

The thing is, it’s be very stupid to say he chose to get injured on purpose, not knowing Hawkings ability. Now he might be cursed.
Also saying he took damage on purpose is a silly way of arguing. It’s like saying Luffy took damage off Katakuri for time so he can defeat him in the end. That sounds ridiculous.
Zoro simply couldn’t handle the nails as it was his first time seeing such ability. And the arrows are not as fast and as many as nails which are smaller anyway so this further proves that zoro, was not ready for the nail ability

 

[King Moe]

No Sword Style??? Bruh, Zoro is so extra hahahaha

It's called a punch bro

I know that one. Was trying to use as a point but since the movie is non-Canon. I change my mind.

Huh? What you meant here?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 19, 2018 ---

The thing is, it’s be very stupid to say he chose to get injured on purpose, not knowing Hawkings ability. Now he might be cursed.
Also saying he took damage on purpose is a silly way of arguing. It’s like saying Luffy took damage off Katakuri for time so he can defeat him in the end. That sounds ridiculous.
Zoro simply couldn’t handle the nails as it was his first time seeing such ability. And the arrows are not as fast and as many as nails which are smaller anyway so this further proves that zoro, was not ready for the nail ability

Not saying he wanted to get hit, but just saying that even if he wasn't prepared for his abilities or not, Zoro should have think of having Haki hardening his body before getting attack to prevent damage instead of taking actual damage that he needed to be bandage on. I don't see the logical in that. Either the nails were too fast for him or Hawkins has stronger Haki out of it.

Luffy has Haki on when he fought Katakuri, just that Katakuri's is stronger a bit or equal to his lvl on why he continue to get damage by him.

I see that now with the Arrows since they came one at a time and such, but a scenario with him vs Hody with him dodge multiple water bullets happen and they are the same size as the nails, but he couldn't predict them as the nails? Though Hody isn't at Hawkins lvl so again it could be Haki is a better fight and better Haki in this.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Or Luffy saw a future where Zoro blocked the arrow and as such... didnt need to react

One thing that's really worried me since futuresight-CoO was introduced: how will Oda write those characters from now on? There's been a lot of inconsistencies with portrayals of haki so far, especially CoO. Adding another level to it seems like a brutal self-imposed challenge by Oda to keep it to VERY few characters. But he already gave it to his main character, so... now we're going to be asking that every single arc/conflict that happens with Luffy.

Like when regular CoO was introduced. "How can they even sneak around here?" "Doesn't anyone in this army/force have CoO on constantly?" "Can people suppress their presence from CoO users?" "How do spies even work in this universe?" Etc. Asking the same type of questions about having the ability to predict the future complicate matters pretty greatly, but not so much if you keep the number of users relatively low and/or limited to secondary characters.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 20, 2018 ---

Anyone has anyidea on what the cover page is about?

Other than the debate about who it is (pretty sure it's Bellamy myself), I haven't seen much guessing as to what Dyed Cloth City is. I hope it's exactly what it says and Bellamy just wants to get a new cloak with a secret Strawhat jolly roger embroidered on the inside of the cloak. It'd make sense for Bellamy to eschew being "out" as a Strawhat GF member, but still respecting the man who cut the threads from Joker.

It'd be a neat lead-up to my ages-old prediction that in the far future of the manga, he tattoos over his Donquixote tattoo. A black straw hat hanging sideways, lining up with the diagonal line across Doffy's jolly roger.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 20, 2018 ---

Ultimately, you have to start with knowing how to use hardening, which would start with hardening the body, no? While not every character who knows hardening will coat their weapons when they should, characters who can use hardening to some degree should at least know how to coat their own body.

How does Law use his sword for his devil fruit power? And Zoro didn't really use haki with his swordsmanship prior to the timeskip and even then, he still doesn't use it as often. Plus, if Sanji can use hardening on his body, there's no reason to believe Zoro can't either, especially when Luffy said the three of them can use haki to deal with Caesar when he and Law were planning.

Not really, we don't know how CoA training works aside from what we were shown. Both Rayleigh and Mihawk used CoA in a way that doesn't line up with that assumption during their respective training sessions with Luffy and Zoro. I think it is user specific. If you're good with a weapon, it's more natural to learn to empower that weapon as an extension of your body.

Zoro didn't use haki at all with his swordsmanship prior to the timeskip except maybe his sword, which sort of supports my idea. There's no reason to believe Luffy wasn't talking about Zoro's swordsmanship.

Eh I don't need this Zoro/Sanji partisanship lol. It's baffling to some people that Sanji can do something Zoro can't/isn't as good at, but it's not to me. Sanji is a brawler like Luffy, therefor his haki is best/easiest to use with his own limbs.

 

[M3J]

What do you mean? We saw Rayleigh use CoA on his leg to fight Kizaru, but we never saw how they learned CoA or where they started from. It makes no sense to know how to coat weapons, but not body.

When has he really needed haki? Hodi was a bitch who couldn't hurt Zoro, his underling was weak as well, Monet possessed no challenge to the point that killing intent was enough, Pica couldn't really do much to Zoro except for run away, and now nails out of nowhere.

 

[McNuss]

When Zoro imbued his swords with Haki vs Pica, you can see the Haki flowing from his arms into his swords. So we did see Zoro harden his body, this should put an end to the discussion as to wether he can harden his body or not.

 

[Core D. Roy]

A pretty good chapter The story is moving fast, now we have a commander and Law coming into scene and I'm really feeling a conection to Wano, the secondary characters and their backstory. The only thing I didn't like was Luffy being outrun by that fodder gifter lol. Luffy has been characterized as one of the absolute fastest characters in OP, so it's hard to believe a low-ranking gazelleman could do this, but this is a minor peeve.


I think you are right. Many don't know this, but the shogun was nominally the emperor's vassal, although the de facto ruler of the land.

And at a certain point in Japanese history, the emperor was completely supplanted by the shogun, just like the plot of Oden/Orochi. Sort of a militaristic version of what happened in England, where the monarchy eventually became a figurehead behind parliament. I think Wano is even based on the same era, the Edo Period? Could be wrong, I'm rusty af on my Japanese history.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 20, 2018 ---

When Zoro imbued his swords with Haki vs Pica, you can see the Haki flowing from his arms into his swords. So we did see Zoro harden his body, this should put an end to the discussion as to wether he can harden his body or not.

It's not whether he CAN or not, it's about specialization. Even if Sanji can use blades, he won't do it unless he's up against a food-based opponent. So if he faced the equivalent of Wanze in the New World, would we see him haki-up some chef's knives? Maybe, but it's not something he's going to go out of his way to do. Fighters like Zoro are offense-focused and use their weapons as mediums. Fighters like Vergo can specialize to coat their entire bodies. Fighters like Luffy are in-between.

We know haki has a limited 'pool'. Zoro can tank the shit out of damage. In fact he has several of the greatest feats of tanking damage in the entire series so far, and he's done it without haki. If you specialize in one thing, why spend part of that 'pool' in another thing you already excel at? Zoro 'spends' his haki on his sword instead of his body at all because 1) he's been trained/is most comfortable attacking with a sword and 2) haki is a finite resource that shouldn't be wasted on defense if you have the capacity to tank enormous damage either way and tend to end conflicts in one decisive swordstroke.

TLDR; Oda's portrayal of Zoro's haki usage is fine when you remember haki is finite and that specialization exists.

 

[TrueRaiKage]

Ultimately, you have to start with knowing how to use hardening, which would start with hardening the body, no? While not every character who knows hardening will coat their weapons when they should, characters who can use hardening to some degree should at least know how to coat their own body.

How does Law use his sword for his devil fruit power? And Zoro didn't really use haki with his swordsmanship prior to the timeskip and even then, he still doesn't use it as often. Plus, if Sanji can use hardening on his body, there's no reason to believe Zoro can't either, especially when Luffy said the three of them can use haki to deal with Caesar when he and Law were planning.

Great opinion. I'm not sure about the body first hardening. But it does have sound logic. However we have seen via flashbacks that Zorro was educated via his blade. In my opinion a swordsman sees his blade as his soul. So maybe much like SniperKing the need to be stronger manifest itself to purpose.

As for Zoros haki level. Not a fan boy but historically Zoro and Luffy have been neck n neck in ability. I won't be surprised if Zoros haki manipulation turns out to be better or equal. Personally I think better makes for a great storyline.

 

[Pirate Queen]

One thing that's really worried me since futuresight-CoO was introduced: how will Oda write those characters from now on? There's been a lot of inconsistencies with portrayals of haki so far, especially CoO. Adding another level to it seems like a brutal self-imposed challenge by Oda to keep it to VERY few characters. But he already gave it to his main character, so... now we're going to be asking that every single arc/conflict that happens with Luffy.

Like when regular CoO was introduced. "How can they even sneak around here?" "Doesn't anyone in this army/force have CoO on constantly?" "Can people suppress their presence from CoO users?" "How do spies even work in this universe?" Etc. Asking the same type of questions about having the ability to predict the future complicate matters pretty greatly, but not so much if you keep the number of users relatively low and/or limited to secondary characters.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 20, 2018 ---

Other than the debate about who it is (pretty sure it's Bellamy myself), I haven't seen much guessing as to what Dyed Cloth City is. I hope it's exactly what it says and Bellamy just wants to get a new cloak with a secret Strawhat jolly roger embroidered on the inside of the cloak. It'd make sense for Bellamy to eschew being "out" as a Strawhat GF member, but still respecting the man who cut the threads from Joker.

It'd be a neat lead-up to my ages-old prediction that in the far future of the manga, he tattoos over his Donquixote tattoo. A black straw hat hanging sideways, lining up with the diagonal line across Doffy's jolly roger.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 20, 2018 ---

Not really, we don't know how CoA training works aside from what we were shown. Both Rayleigh and Mihawk used CoA in a way that doesn't line up with that assumption during their respective training sessions with Luffy and Zoro. I think it is user specific. If you're good with a weapon, it's more natural to learn to empower that weapon as an extension of your body.

Zoro didn't use haki at all with his swordsmanship prior to the timeskip except maybe his sword, which sort of supports my idea. There's no reason to believe Luffy wasn't talking about Zoro's swordsmanship.

Eh I don't need this Zoro/Sanji partisanship lol. It's baffling to some people that Sanji can do something Zoro can't/isn't as good at, but it's not to me. Sanji is a brawler like Luffy, therefor his haki is best/easiest to use with his own limbs.

Well, even as it pertained to Katakuti, CoO needs to be "TURNED ON" and you need to remain calm. Oda can easily bypass our foreseen concerned by displaying that either A) Luffy didnt have it turned on or B) Luffy was in a state of panic

Unless Luffy is facing an Arc Final villain or Oda wants him to display a moment of epicness I doubt Luffy will spam this newly developed haki. Just my assessment of it

I agree with you ultimately, Oda is in for a wave of criticisms in situations where Luffy could have easily used haki to avoid a situation.

I can count 6 times Luffy could have easily used this new haki in the last 2 chapters to avoid what had happened.

 

[roggie]

Well, even as it pertained to Katakuti, CoO needs to be "TURNED ON" and you need to remain calm. Oda can easily bypass our foreseen concerned by displaying that either A) Luffy didnt have it turned on or B) Luffy was in a state of panic

Unless Luffy is facing an Arc Final villain or Oda wants him to display a moment of epicness I doubt Luffy will spam this newly developed haki. Just my assessment of it

I agree with you ultimately, Oda is in for a wave of criticisms in situations where Luffy could have easily used haki to avoid a situation.

I can count 6 times Luffy could have easily used this new haki in the last 2 chapters to avoid what had happened.

Exactly my same thoughts on the matter.

As for Zoros haki level. Not a fan boy but historically Zoro and Luffy have been neck n neck in ability. I won't be surprised if Zoros haki manipulation turns out to be better or equal. Personally I think better makes for a great storyline.

wouldn't be surprised if Zoro could cut Cracker biscuits already

 

[Pirate Queen]

Great opinion. I'm not sure about the body first hardening. But it does have sound logic. However we have seen via flashbacks that Zorro was educated via his blade. In my opinion a swordsman sees his blade as his soul. So maybe much like SniperKing the need to be stronger manifest itself to purpose.

As for Zoros haki level. Not a fan boy but historically Zoro and Luffy have been neck n neck in ability. I won't be surprised if Zoros haki manipulation turns out to be better or equal. Personally I think better makes for a great storyline.

I disagree. What current feats does Zoro have that even touch Luffy's haki level? The best thing with haki Zoro has done is cut Pica

Luffy can
-use CoO to see I to the future
-use CoA to nullify swords with Tankman
-use CoA to rapidly change direction of attacks with snake man (and still keep its strength and increased speed to surpass future seeing abilities)
-use CoK to defeat 50,000 Fishman instantly


Zoro has no current haki feats that even touch Luffy's haki feats

Zoro and Luffy have never been neck and neck, especially when haki was concerned.

Please prove me wrong with feats if you believe otherwise.

Zoro seeing his blade as simply an extension of his arm is a great explaination of why he can use haki with his swords. Like you I am unsure of his body hardening first.

Haki is a very complicated ability to assess so in depth

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 20, 2018 ---

wouldn't be surprised if Zoro could cut Cracker biscuits already

I wouldn't be surprised either, but with extreme difficulty. He just doesnt have the feats to show he can contend with a Yonko Commander just yet. I'm hoping this Arc shows otherwise

 

[nik87]

I agree with previous explanations that just because Luffy knows how to use future sight doesnt mean he will constantly use it (not even Katakuri used it permanently outside the battle) and just because we fans think he could have used it to avoid something doesnt mean Oda wants to abuse that ability for every little thing. Its a trump card for extremely dangerous situations imo and will be used rarely, poping it on fodder here and there as a show off can happen of course.

Regarding CoA i think the first step is hardening the body since haki comes from the body, not from the objects the haki user holds. Since the swords are not the body its logical to assume that its harder to harden them than the body. Besides, there is not much use for Zoro to harden his body since he deals with things with his swords, except in such situations like with the nails but as we saw its not even worth mentioning it for a tanky character like Zoro.
For swordsmen, main use of CoA is to make their swords as hard as possible, hardening body is useless 99% of the time and when attacks slip pass the swords then the injury is almost certain. We probably wont even see it from Mihawk simply because the fighting style is different compared to Luffy's.

wouldn't be surprised if Zoro could cut Cracker biscuits already

One Piece doesnt always follow logic but if it does in this case then yeah, its logical to assume that since he creates more force on smaller area of impact than Luffy which could allow him to deal with biscuits easier.

He just doesnt have the feats to show he can contend with a Yonko Commander just yet.

True but if we are fair he had no chance to show off what he can. Since the reunion on Sabaody up till now Zoro didnt have a proper opponent while Luffy had 3.
Thing that makes us think that Zoro is equal or close to Luffy's level is that scene from Thriller Bark when he took all Luffy's suffering and damage on top of his own and still remained on his feet despite taking a bloodbath.

 

[kkck]

Katakuri did use his COO constantly IIRC. That is why he was a threat to the plan back at the tea party assassination attempt. It is plausible that for luffy using COO like that is not quite as effortless as it appeared to be for katakuri.

It's hard to tell exactly how strong zoro is TBH. He has only fought comparatively weak people since part 2 started. Hodi was worthless even at his best, monet didn't have anything going for her that matters against anyone with a modicum of strength and pika was strong but zoro clearly didn't go all out against him. Add to that that zoro has not even used his azura. If it turns out zoro has been stronger than luffy up until luffy got his power boost against katakuri I wouldn't even be all that surprised tbh. At times to me it does look like oda has been saving zoro's strength for something a tad special given how little attention he has been getting which makes sense with zoro being in wano and all. As in oda, knowing zoro would get a ton of attention in wano due to being a swordsman and shusui, left him a bit sidelined and fighting weak people until now. Heck, we even saw zoro pretty much one shot a supernova. Even hawkings should not be wasting his lives like that.... If hawkings wasn't the type you have to one shot multiple times he'd be quite dead right now.

 

[hokageji]

wouldn't be surprised if Zoro could cut Cracker biscuits already

Cutting his biscuits shouldnt be a problem anyways... Its always been the number of biscuits Cracker can keep generating... Luffy got assistance on that one, and without it, Zoro would have the same struggle if not more.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Cutting his biscuits shouldnt be a problem anyways... Its always been the number of biscuits Cracker can keep generating... Luffy got assistance on that one, and without it, Zoro would have the same struggle if not more.

Zoro does have wind based attacks which are long ranged so????

 

[hokageji]

Yes, he does have long ranged attacks.
I am not saying Zoro cant beat Cracker theoretically, just saying that cutting his biscuits isnt enough to take down Cracker...
, Cracker can keep creating more ones..... Cracker's main weakness is that his real body is extremely weak as he has stated, but if he gets into a battle with armor and can keep generating all those biscuits, doesnt matter how much Zoro can cut...
Besides, the biscuits were hard enough for Luffy to break, Zoro cutting them wont be easy either.

 

[Hrathgrath]

Yes, he does have long ranged attacks.
I am not saying Zoro cant beat Cracker theoretically, just saying that cutting his biscuits isnt enough to take down Cracker...
, Cracker can keep creating more ones..... Cracker's main weakness is that his real body is extremely weak as he has stated, but if he gets into a battle with armor and can keep generating all those biscuits, doesnt matter how much Zoro can cut...
Besides, the biscuits were hard enough for Luffy to break, Zoro cutting them wont be easy either.

On topic because it is a matter of Zoro’s strength in the upcoming battle.

I think Zoro can cut through much more than Luffy can punch through. I personally feel that Luffy v Cracker was a bad matchup. However if Zoro had fought Cracker it would likely have been a much shorter fight. Because, as it showed, Cracker was only able to use Haki on the biscuit soldier he was inhabiting, so Zoro would have made short work of the non haki soldiers, even if he kept pumping them out I think Zoro would have been able to cut through them so easily it would have been pointless. May as well be throwing flower, the ingredient not the plants, at Zoro.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 21, 2018 ---

With this haki discussion. If you can imbue your weapons with haki. You can imbue your body with it... I mean you are extending your haki into your weapons! Extending it from your body...to your weapons...I mean to think that someone could skip basic haki abilities and go straight to a more difficult thing like imbuing your weapons... I just don’t get it. It’s like going to get a glass of water, you get a cup out of the cupboard, and skip the sink, or pitcher, and somehow end up having water in your cup anyway!

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 21, 2018 ---

I expect this whole thing with “future vision” like Katakuri to kinda disappear. It’s an ability that’s too powerful. It would overbalance the plot unless every bad guy Luffy fights from now on also has it.

 

[nik87]

I have a theory

I think Tama is maybe Ace's daughter and the big lady o-Kiku samourai is her mother
Just a theory but if true, this means why they want to kidnap Tama

Already proven impossible. When Ace arrived in Wano she already had 5 years and i think she was already born before Ace set out to sea.

@Hrathgrath I agree, Zoro would have a much easier time slicing the biscuit army, the only issue could be his real body clad in haki. Not sure if Cracker used CoA on his main biscuit body, my guess is not, at least for defense and since Luffy was able to punch through it im sure Zoro would cut it with ease. After all, he is able to cut through steel, i doubt the biscuits are tougher no matter how hard they were.

@hokageji I dont think Crackers real body was extremely weak and he didnt say such thing. He said he dislikes pain and because of that he uses biscuit body. He was taken out by an attack which imo is on the same level as King Kong Gun or even stronger (if we apply the logic) but as we saw such caliber took out Doffy as well in one hit and would arguably take out Katakuri as well if it would hit.

 

[SupremeMod]

Don't think from what we've seen that Zoro could beat Cracker. It honestly didn't even seem like Luffy could without help.

 

[TrueRaiKage]

I disagree. What current feats does Zoro have that even touch Luffy's haki level? The best thing with haki Zoro has done is cut Pica

Luffy can
-use CoO to see I to the future
-use CoA to nullify swords with Tankman
-use CoA to rapidly change direction of attacks with snake man (and still keep its strength and increased speed to surpass future seeing abilities)
-use CoK to defeat 50,000 Fishman instantly


Zoro has no current haki feats that even touch Luffy's haki feats

Zoro and Luffy have never been neck and neck, especially when haki was concerned.

Please prove me wrong with feats if you believe otherwise.

Zoro seeing his blade as simply an extension of his arm is a great explaination of why he can use haki with his swords. Like you I am unsure of his body hardening first.

Haki is a very complicated ability to assess so in depth

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 20, 2018 ---

I wouldn't be surprised either, but with extreme difficulty. He just doesnt have the feats to show he can contend with a Yonko Commander just yet. I'm hoping this Arc shows otherwise

Hi there.

I believe my opinion was clear. The two charcter mention have historically been equal in ability. Thus far, since time skip, we have seen Zoro handel an admiral better than Luffy. However we have seen nothing, absolutely nothing else from zoro. So I agree with the lack of canonized information. I do not agree with the evidence you have presented thus far. What you have demonstrated is Zoro has been given the least amount of panels oitbof the big three since timeskip. Zoro had one fight a scuffle and a dust up since time skip.

Also I'm betting he has the CoC we just haven't witnessed it. Almos sure due to wording at FI but I cld be wrong so ima say 60/40