People still debating the Dimaria-END-Natsu stuff and what happened
Didnt Mashima semi-explain this shit in a Mira/Lucy interview session at the end of volume 60.
....
Here you go, straight from Hiro's pen:
(right page, left part)
I hope this will help some of you to somewhat come to a mutual conclusion.
People still debating the Dimaria-END-Natsu stuff and what happened
Didnt Mashima semi-explain this shit in a Mira/Lucy interview session at the end of volume 60.
....
Here you go, straight from Hiro's pen:
(right page, left part)
I hope this will help some of you to somewhat come to a mutual conclusion.
Actually, that interview made it even more confusing.
If base Natsu is stronger than his END form, then I don't see why he needed to resort to END to move through stopped time (as implied by the interview). He could have just moved through Dimaria's magic in his base state.
Not to mention, it's confusing that Natsu needed his "END power" to initially move through time, but then was able to examine an unconscious Lucy in his base form. After that, Mashima states that "the Power of END awakens" and he punches Dimaria, which implies that it was Natsu's first time using that power (after he saw a "dead/unconscious" Lucy). And that directly contradicts the previous statements.
The only way to explain this confusing event is that END's curse powers had something to do with Natsu being able to move through Dimaria's time magic (maybe the curse power opened up a weak spot in Dimaria's time magic or something). But in my opinion, it wasn't necessarily END's powers or Natsu's transformation into END that allowed him to move through stopped time. Otherwise, it just wouldn't make sense power-wise for Natsu to need to resort to END when his base state can achieve the same feats.
And I think it is obvious that Base Natsu's power is more than enough to negate Dimaria's time magic.
Actually, that interview made it even more confusing.
If base Natsu is stronger than his END form, then I don't see why he needed to resort to END to move through stopped time (as implied by the interview). He could have just moved through Dimaria's magic in his base state.
Not to mention, it's confusing that Natsu needed his "END power" to initially move through time, but then was able to examine an unconscious Lucy in his base form. After that, Mashima states that "the Power of END awakens" and he punches Dimaria, which implies that it was Natsu's first time using that power (after he saw a "dead/unconscious" Lucy). And that directly contradicts the previous statements.
The only way to explain this confusing event is that END's curse powers had something to do with Natsu being able to move through Dimaria's time magic (maybe the curse power opened up a weak spot in Dimaria's time magic or something). But in my opinion, it wasn't necessarily END's powers or Natsu's transformation into END that allowed him to move through stopped time. Otherwise, it just wouldn't make sense power-wise for Natsu to need to resort to END when his base state can achieve the same feats.
And I think it is obvious that Base Natsu's power is more than enough to negate Dimaria's time magic.
I kinda knew you would be the one to reply cuz we did have an argument about this in the last FT tournament thread, concerning Gray, END and Dimaria. Good times
You say its confusing and it kinda doesnt make sense, which is understadable, but did this arc even make any sense to begin with, at least after the 500 chapter mark ... i say it didnt, but at least Mashima gave this problem a look.
Actually for me this very interview made things more clear to me than without it, it also kinda confirmed what i was initially thinking about this situation. It is base Natsu but with awakened END powers, kinda like a status power. The demon seed finally reached its activation during the Dimaria torture. If you remember, Brandish enlarged his seed to the point of almost killing him without realizing she was influecing the demon seed. But when the demon seed reached the point of activation, Brandish was no longer able to influence it with her op magic. We could use this even as a first hint.
Now when Natsu finally awakens right in the middle of Dimaria trying to blind Lucy, the demon seed was already in full gear and giving Natsu the necessary strenght, which is why he was able to break through the magic-sealing cuffs (if this was "only" base Natsu, why didnt he break through them when that fodder Goemon cuffed him during Avatar). You could say he was able to do that in base form, but with a temporary character status boost (sorry for this im using some rpg words here plus i read too much Overlord) which can bypass time magic or any other op magic that is influencing his body. He was able to walk through time and crush Dimaria cuz of the demon seed inside him, in short cuz of END power. Base form or not, the important thing is that the activated seed gave him the power/immunity/or whatever to bypass time. And after he sees Lucy, the demon seed overtook him even more, and then he went for Zeref which is either the etherious command given to him by Zeref or by his own free will, i kinda think its the former.
This is what i came up with when i saw the interview Maybe it doesnt make sense to some, but its from Mashima himself with some sprinkels i added to be more believable (yeah right ).
Actually when you read more carefully, it is pretty simple, END power is the power to surpass god powers, as Dimaria said, thus allowing him to move through time, as Zeref created END to kill him, where his immortality is a power from a god as well. As for how he could initially move through time, it could be when the demon seed actually awakens that allowed Natsu to move to begin with
The god that curse Zeref has no feats so how can u say he stronger than acno?? That like saying mavis>acno and ingeel cuz she immortal. And u have no proof that the a dragon can’t kill Zeref
Where did you get that? Time manipulation wasn't even broken bcs of high MP as E.N.D. uses CP so you're whole higher power offsets hax bs isnt working for this. E.N.D. getting out of TS is E.N.D.'s ability and no one else (Natsu literally has the ability to burn space'time itself as well. Everyone else higher than Dim had a direct counter to her power. Also none of these guys have higher MP than a S12 either.
Where did you get that? Time manipulation wasn't even broken bcs of high MP as E.N.D. uses CP so you're whole higher power offsets hax bs isnt working for this. E.N.D. getting out of TS is E.N.D.'s ability and no one else (Natsu literally has the ability to burn space'time itself as well. Everyone else higher than Dim had a direct counter to her power. Also none of these guys have higher MP than a S12 either.
The fight that takes place within timestop happens before the Wall vs Laxus fight. Like I said if they were still fighting we would've saw the big ole' nuke in the sky that both Kagura and Erza saw. Nothing indicates they were fighting in the stasis. DiMaria already shown to put S12s in timestop as well.
Where did you get that? Time manipulation wasn't even broken bcs of high MP as E.N.D. uses CP so you're whole higher power offsets hax bs isnt working for this. E.N.D. getting out of TS is E.N.D.'s ability and no one else (Natsu literally has the ability to burn space'time itself as well. Everyone else higher than Dim had a direct counter to her power. Also none of these guys have higher MP than a S12 either.
The fight that takes place within timestop happens before the Wall vs Laxus fight. Like I said if they were still fighting we would've saw the big ole' nuke in the sky that both Kagura and Erza saw. Nothing indicates they were fighting in the stasis. DiMaria already shown to put S12s in timestop as well.
bruh how?? the chapter simultaneously showed both Wendy and laxus fighting plus the map further prove my point everything is happening at the same time
The fight that takes place within timestop happens before the Wall vs Laxus fight. Like I said if they were still fighting we would've saw the big ole' nuke in the sky that both Kagura and Erza saw. Nothing indicates they were fighting in the stasis. DiMaria already shown to put S12s in timestop as well.
This panel here is from chapter 474 before Dimaria is defeated.You can see Mashima only pointed a cross on Wahl(indicating he is defeated) not Dimaria which means she was undefeated till then.
But he didn't make stupid choices as he was fighting at his base level of strength. He wasn't going to take the fight serious as he didn't even do that against Igneel.
Base Acnologia =/= Human Irene. Making stupid choices has nothing to do with your level of strength. Anybody can make stupid decisions, especially if the plot calls for it.
Acnologia did take the fight seriously against Igneel. The dude lost an arm in that battle. He was obviously putting in effort to slay Igneel.
With Irene, he just held a conversation with her. Not once did he attack Irene with the intent to kill.
He didn't spare her life, he was outsmarted. She prepped before she even went into the battle because she knew who Acno was and what his capabilities were. Irene mocked him? She gave him credit for how powerful he was and in turn he noted she was very strong herself for being one of Zeref's mages. Nothing of plot prevented him from killing her when he tried to before their introduction. She was just strong enough to parry his blows.
Actually, Irene did mock him. She stated that she intended to block his path (which would be ridiculous had Acnologia been trying to kill her) and compared him to the likes of Zeref, which a non-PIS Acnologia would not be pleased to hear:
It's plain and simple. Irene wouldn't have spoken to Acnologia in a condescending tone if Acnologia treated her the same way that he treated God Serena.
Acnologia spared her life when he had no reason to.
Considering she can change an entire sword into a human person, you don't think she can hide her scent? It's not really speculation when numerous trained slayers couldn't determine if she was Dragon Slayer or not.
So Irene enchants can basically distort reality and you're having trouble believing she can mask her scent? How was her being the Mother of Dragon Slayers an asspull? We didn't know anything of Irene besides her being a rival to August in power. The only Alvarez soldier that knew Irene was a Dragon was Zeref and that is because he enchanted her to human form. Her being the Mother of Dragon Slayers was not an asspull. An asspull is Erza cutting the meteor or Erza smacking Acnologia out of the sky because we fully know Erza's character and abilities.
Again, there is no evidence to prove that Irene masked her scent through her enchantments. That was entirely made-up, and I'm not willing to follow through with that explanation without more context.
For all we know, itcouldhave been Zeref giving Irene a human form that allowed her dragon scent to be masked... the fact is, we don't know, which is exactly why I call it an asspull by Mashima.
Actually that is not the reason as he tried to claw her guts out 10 seconds after they met. She prepared a technique that banished him and it did it's intended purpose. The way you think of PIS would make everything PIS. Gray's Dad only survive because he needed to meet Gray again, Igneel only did well against Acno to tell Natsu something before he died, Future Rogue only control seven dragon to add stakes to the plot, Ect. You cant blame plot for every little instance or you can do that for everything. PIS only happens when we know that character is acting OOC just so they didn't stomp and that's what happened in the Irene fight. She went from cunning and no play time fighter to an idiot who took straight hits to the face multiple times without even trying to defend herself. Without Erza being her daughter the Erza vs Irene would have ended in a stomp. Without Erza being her daughter she would have still been alive to later meet the heroes to face them.
If Acnologia had been serious, he would have clawed a hole in Irene the moment she sent a magic blast in his direction. The fact that he simply blocked the blast and proceeded to talk to her afterwards is indicative that he had no intention to kill her. Universe One would never have happened if Acnologia blitzed her.
And Gray's dad was actually already dead. He didn't survive because he needed to meet with Gray... Keyes, Tartaros' necromancer, was the person who experimented on his body and made him a walking corpse. He had no choice.
Silver just wanted to avenge his family members' deaths by going undercover in Tartaros. He eventually planned to turn against them and kill END, but instead, he gave Gray that responsibility.
Silver didn't even know that Gray was still alive until he saw Gray perform at the Grand Magic Games. It was fate that they met again.
No, Anksheram’s curse was separate from Zeref or Mavis’s power so no Acnologia cannot kill them because his strength is lesser than that of Ankhseram.
And no, it is proven the strength is not a factor, just the ability to surpass god powers.
You can’t prove that Dimaria was defeated after Wall. That is not how time magic works. And that cover doesn’t mean anything really otherwise it would be spoilers, only shows what we have seen so far. Besides that chapter is when Dimaria activated Time Stop which was the very same scene we saw while Laxus and Wall were fighting so that would be inconsistant on your part. The story follows a nonlinear narrative. And since Spriggans are same strength then by your Logic Wall would have been effected as well and Laxus would have had no problem killing him.
No, it was stated that E.N.D. was only more powerful than gods (which E.N.D. was created to bypass Zeref's curse from the God of Life and Death). It was never stated his Curse Power was higher that's completely false. It's also funny how she literally states only E.N.D. could do this and y'all just completely ignore that.
Brandish couldn't affect E.N.D. because E.N.D. at that point was anti hax. He however had nothing of the sort to say his magical or curse power was stronger than Dim's or Randi's. No one even noted that he had incredible CP or MP in his partial E.N.D. form either.
This also again only applies to E.N.D. as stated by Dimaria herself.
Everyone above DiMaria has a literal counter to her timestop which is not through sheer force.
bruh how?? the chapter simultaneously showed both Wendy and laxus fighting plus the map further prove my point everything is happening at the same time
No, they weren't simultaneously fighting lol. Erza and Kagura were still on the battlefield in the Wall fight and see a big explosion come from the city. If the fight happened within the timestop then we would see the big attacks that were destroying the city in the DiMaria battle. That would also mean Kagura and Erza were walking through timestop as they were noting the battle between Laxus and Wall. Kagura already shown to get rekt in timestop and Erza (nor Laxus) have MP higher than any of the S12 so the whole power argument is thrown out the window.
This panel here is from chapter 474 before Dimaria is defeated.You can see Mashima only pointed a cross on Wahl(indicating he is defeated) not Dimaria which means she was undefeated till then.
Mashima ain't going to reveal that DiMaria got defeated before DiMaria gets defeated in her actual fight in a cover lol. The cover is nothing either as it hold no weight to the story. Plus its inaccurate af.
You also forget DiMaria already timestop a S12 so again Wall wasn't moving within timestop. Plus as stated above Kagura and Erza noted the battle between them and Kagura was susceptible to timestop already. Plus Laxus nor Erza have MP levels on the S12's caliber.
No, it was stated that E.N.D. was only more powerful than gods (which E.N.D. was created to bypass Zeref's curse from the God of Life and Death. It was never stated his Curse Power was higher that's completely false. It's also funny how she literally states only E.N.D. could do this and y'all just completely ignore that.
Brandish couldn't affect E.N.D. because E.N.D. at that point was anti hax. He however had nothing of the sort to say his magical or curse was stronger.
This also only applies to E.N.D. as stated by Dimaria herself.
Everyone above DiMaria jas a literal counter to her timestop which is not through sheer force.
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No, it they weren't simultaneously fighting lol. Erza and Kagura were still on the battlefield in the Dimaria fight which in the Wall fight they were near the city. If the fight happened before Wendy vs. DiMaria or within the timestop then we would see the big attacks that were destroying the city in their battle.
Mashima ain't going to reveal that DiMaria got defeated before DiMaria gets defeated in her actual fight in a cover lol. The cover is nothing either as it hold no weight to the story. Plus its inaccurate af.
You also forget DiMaria already timestop a S12 so again Wall wasn't moving within timestop.
Anyone above Brandish in power can counter her magic,she herself said it here
She was shocked on seeing Neinhart being made that strong by Irene and that's why her magic didn't work on him,she says this in the simplest language.
So naturally END can do that as she herself says,"it is far more powerful than any magic I have".
Also Dimaria says like this "How could he move inside my time?In response to this very statement she herself says "How could he have more power than a God" indicating if anyone can move within Age Seal without Time Magic(like Ultear) it can only one with above the power of a God.
Now regarding the cover it's accurate to me because it is given by the author himself.If he really wanted to show otherwise he would have painted this cover after Dimaria's defeat indicating Dimaria is first defeated and then made another one showing Wahl being defeated,but he didn't do that.In fact he did that complete opposite.
Also who is the say Age Seal effected them?We don't know the range of Age Seal(Mashima didn't clear it) and they could very well be outside the range of Age Seal.
Also working on Brandish doesn't mean it would have worked on Wahl too.Wahl held a position above Brandish and he was the one who ordered Brandish to capture the spy in the Caracole island.He may very well be stronger than Brandish.
Anyone above Brandish in power can counter her magic,she herself said it here
She was shocked on seeing Neinhart being made that strong by Irene and that's why her magic didn't work on him,she says this in the simplest language.
So naturally END can do that as she herself says,"it is far more powerful than any magic I have".
Also Dimaria says like this "How could he move inside my time?In response to this very statement she herself says "How could he have more power than a God" indicating if anyone can move within Age Seal without Time Magic(like Ultear) it can only one with above the power of a God.
Now regarding the cover it's accurate to me because it is given by the author himself.If he really wanted to show otherwise he would have painted this cover after Dimaria's defeat indicating Dimaria is defeated and then Wahl,but he didn't do that.
Also who is the say Age Seal effected them?We don't know the range of Age Seal(Mashima didn't clear it) and they could very well be outside the range of Age Seal.
Also working on Brandish doesn't mean it would have worked on Wahl too.Wahl held a position above Brandish and he was the one who ordered Brandish to capture the spy in the Caracole island.He may very well be stronger than Brandish.
We see her heal August by mass manipulation and August was in battle mode. Irene's enchantment is what stopped her from affecting Neinhart not Neinhart's mp.
Plus dude your own panel contradicts everything you're saying. Brandish already sensed his MP (which is equal throughout all the S12 bar the top two) was increased by Irene so why do you think she would use her magic and be surprised it doesnt work if she knew it doesnt affect people higher than her in MP.
Also another contradiction is that she asked "how strong has Irene made him" which was not anything to do with MP.
"Only E.N.D. could..." Again this only applies to E.N.D. and it stated how he can have more power than a God which again has nothing to do with CP or MP otherwise she would stated that as they have explicitly stated curse or magical power in the show and not just power.
What? He drew so the reader's would know what happened last week, it as simple as that. Why would he draw a cover with DiMaria already beat which would only spoil fans of the fight? Why would he wait too? He would have to wait several weeks even after the fight to have a remotely accurate pic as Jacob and August point was far off from where they were on the map too. You're thinking way to hard about that.
The Age Seal affects the flow of time itself which means she affects the entire world. Why would you think she only affected a small pocket? Old Ultear is also near Crocus which is over a 1000km so she obviously was affecting way more than the battlefield in timestop. Plus we see the clock tower in the town stopped as well so they were affected by Age Seal.
Wall and Brandish have the same MP so yes it does mean it'll work on him. Wall never held a position above Brandish and the only ones stronger in MP were Irene and August. And Wall never was stated to have sent them there either.
From the feats shown, there's no evidence to prove that Laxus would beat Gray in a direct fight. On the other hand, I'm not saying that Gray is definitely stronger than Laxus either. But it's possible.
The only form of comparison we have is their most recent performances. With that said, I think Gray performed better against Invel and END than Laxus did against Wahl. And I consider Invel to be on the same tier as Wahl.
To be fair, Invel only caught Gray in his Ice Lock spell because Gray was distracted by Brandish grabbing Natsu, Lucy, and Happy. He had his back turned towards Invel.
To make matters worse, Gray was Ice Locked with Juvia, which suggests that you need 2 people to perform that spell. We have no idea if Ice Lock works on only 1 person.
In a solo fight, Gray would likely have not allowed Invel to use Ice Lock on him. Also, there wouldn't have been a second person for Invel to trap Gray with.
We see her heal August by mass manipulation and August was in battle mode. Irene's enchantment is what stopped her from affecting Neinhart not Neinhart's mp.
Plus dude your own panel contradicts everything you're saying. Brandish already sensed his MP (which is equal throughout all the S12 bar the top two) was increased by Irene so why do you think she would use her magic and be surprised it doesnt work if she knew it doesnt affect people higher than her in MP.
Also another contradiction is that she asked "how strong has Irene made him" which was not anything to do with MP.
"Only E.N.D. could..." Again this only applies to E.N.D. and it stated how he can have more power than a God which again has nothing to do with CP or MP otherwise she would stated that as they have explicitly stated curse or magical power in the show and not just power.
What? He drew so the reader's would know what happened last week, it as simple as that. Why would he draw a cover with DiMaria already beat which would only spoil fans of the fight? Why would he wait too? He would have to wait several weeks even after the fight to have a remotely accurate pic as Jacob and August point was far off from where they were on the map too. You're thinking way to hard about that.
The Age Seal affects the flow of time itself which means she affects the entire world. Why would you think she only affected a small pocket? Old Ultear is also near Crocus which is over a 1000km so she obviously was affecting way more than the battlefield in timestop. Plus we see the clock tower in the town stopped as well so they were affected by Age Seal.
Wall and Brandish have the same MP so yes it does mean it'll work on him. Wall never held a position above Brandish and the only ones stronger in MP were Irene and August. And Wall never was stated to have sent them there either.
Bro this is the panel where it was confirmed that Wahl sent them.
August is also immune to Caster magic so why did Brandish's magic work on him? Because he allowed it.Same way if he really wanted to resist it his magic power and his ability would have stopped it.
Also I don't have any counter if you dispell canon points stated by Brandish and Dimaria herself.
Like "He is immune to my magic,how strong did Irene make him"
And in the same vein by Mashima.He stated Wahl was defeated first and that is canon.
And no where it is stated that Age seal is effecting the world.Not all time stop abilities can do that.Dio from JoJo can effect the entire universe but Esdeath's Time stop can only effect a certain area of few kilometres Maximum.
Ultear's time frame exists in the time stop like she said here .It has nothing to do with her distance.Neither is all Spriggan are on same level.Dimaria is clearly stronger than Brandish.
I hope this will help some of you to somewhat come to a mutual conclusion.
I kinda knew you would be the one to reply cuz we did have an argument about this in the last FT tournament thread, concerning Gray, END and Dimaria. Good times 
Maybe it doesnt make sense to some, but its from Mashima himself with some sprinkels i added to be more believable (yeah right 
).
