Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[supercow297]

What is it about every character in MHA other than these two that makes them not feel 'real' enough?

I'd like you to also provide some examples where you think they felt "real". I'm just curious. Not provoking anything.

I'll just give examples. I'll be semi-cherry-picking. As in I'll look for pages that have a reasonable amount of dialogue only as who knows if a two-word response or a in-battle shout can be considered "real" or not.

A: Um... so these guys in particular are dangerous.
B: Strategy tings
C: WE'LL KILL THEM
D: First one who makes a move wins so let's get them!

First of all the dialogue is already fucked. Second this dialogue (basically monologue) exists ONLY to remind you "oh yeah that guy is angry." "oh yeah that girl is energetic." Third, I just realized this too, the composition is also fucked. You can't tell who's facing who and who's directing their speech to who. It's not like everyone's paying attention to the speaker at the same time. And by the way half of the characters below we literally don't know and a quarter we haven't known for more than a few chapters. But just from this collage you can already tell so much about their personality.

You'll see in the manga whose dick I keep sucking, everyone is doing something, and everyone is facing someone/something, engaged in their realistic conversational behaviour.

This chapter (20) is a gold mine for painstaking details Fujimoto puts in. Even in the top left panel you see the glasses guy in the right-side of the panel.

He was introduced literally this chapter and by Boku no Hero standards, without a "MY NAME? NANJOU TERUMASA. QUIRK: FIRE EYES. HMPH. I ROAM THE WORLD WITH COLD EYES AND A FIERY HEART", you shouldn't be able to tell anything about him. But just from his non-involvement in this hustle and bustle you can tell something about him without being forcefed. And he's had all of two small panels of screen time so far.

Here is a page of no-stakes banter. Small aside: in Chainsawman all the banter had purpose and introduced new ideas. Here Horikoshi is just bludgeoning us with traits and facts we already know about characters (besides Tokoyami's new apprenticeship). Anyway look at the flow of the conversation.

Tokoyami sneezes.
Someone must be talking about you!
Oh that's right you have fans!
Oh you interned at Hawks's place?

That ENTIRE CONVERSATION was engineered to bring up Hawks and Tokoyami.

In other words we go from sneeze -> Hawks.

And if you think about it, the sneeze->Someone is talking about you itself is a manga meme. (Well more of an Asian meme, but...) It's a train of thought/contrived logic of: "Oh this must be true." "Oh then this must be true." "Oh then Le epic reveal" So many unnatural coincidences.

Finally I avoided all of the "muh character is quirky" type of dialogue like mutter-deku and loud-red-riot and angry-bakugou, since "muh character-based drama", so let's look at this page instead.

Who apologizes super loud in front of a bunch of people for literally MUTTERING that they don't like someone?
All it serves is a nice bookend to the end of the arc - "oh cool our protagonists' efforts are recognized." And it's not even done well. It's just cringe. If you want to defend this by saying it's a manga for kids, and that's why it's so simplified, I guess I could accept that.

Then the bottom left panel is even more sad. Le background characters have been paying close attention this WHOLE time despite never being shown doing that, and now... "you guys have passed it on."

Another phrase that people don't actually say.

That is, of course, unless there's actually significant buildup and a proper place and time to say it.

Like this scene in Ippo for example. This is something that is actually worth passing on, that has so many accumulated emotions that saying a cheesy line is still powerful as fuck. But saying it in the boku no hero panel feels robotic. Oh let's copy and paste another cool manga line. Instead of thinking what humans would think.

That's about it for examples. What are your thoughts on my "analysis"?

 

[Ctkk]

The problem isn't that it's a character-centric story. The problem is that the plot, which enables characters to shine, is contrived to the point that it's hard to care or empathize at all. And having a bad plot is not excused by "muh character development". And in either case the characters are not a strong point in BnHA anyway, otherwise just seeing the characters hang out would be nice... but the school free-time arcs certainly weren't.

Gonna do a few replies in bold.

Well, MHA has never really tried to go out of its way to be grand and epic(which admittedly is kinda weird for the genre).
AFO vs OFA. Smashing up an entire city. Helicopters flying around and report. "YOU'RE NEXTTT!!!!" Really, not trying to be grand and epic?

The plot barely exists. It's never really gone beyond ''there are some bad guys plotting nefarious stuff''.
This is a fault of the series.

There's also no serial escalation.
There was supposed to be escalation via Deku's percentage, until MUH MILLION PERCENT, MUH ERI PERCENT, and MUH SEVEN QUIRKS.

There's no clear power level system to tell us whether any given situation is more dangerous than the last.
This is a fault of the series.

Instead, every arc gives us its own stakes and explains why they're important and we should be invested(save Bakugo, get a license, save Eri, Eri's smile), even if they aren't so big in the grand scheme of things. An unique structure for sure.
Not unique at all. Literally in every manga if not every piece of fiction. Just one example, saving Rukia in Soul Society Arc, had way more compelling plot AND characters, without the crutch of "b-but we're a character drama".

So I think Horikoshi knows very well what he's doing (It's not hard to see what A vs B was trying to accomplish: Fully introduce Class-B[...]).
Whatever Horikoshi is doing, it's with extremely poor execution. Of course A vs B was to introduce characters. But you can give characters focus in far better ways than a contrived fight with no stakes. Off the top of my head World Trigger's rank wars are a plot-linked, high-stakes, extended tournament arc and a great way to introduce characters.


The following is all mine, even non-bolded.

Overall, Horikoshi sucks ass at writing characters. Todoroki and Deku(&All Might's relationship) are exceptions because I'm pretty sure the emotion from there was mostly personally inspired, which is how he got the raw emotion on the page. (If you disagree with that, it's fine, doesn't affect my point much.)

No one acts human in his series. Even in their downtime, people only say filler phrases that somewhat fit their character archetype. It's Horikoshi's "oh this must be how the teens talk nowadays."

I'm sure Horikoshi is a hard worker. And that many people love his series for what it is. But from a more objective analysis it is going off the rails and has been for years. And despite being primarily a character drama as you said, the characters are soulless.

Miyazaki once said (or some other, old-age Japanese animator) that the original generation of anime creators all studied real life and real people as a base for their shows. And that new generations only "studied"... past anime. This dilutes the human element out of the stories, reduce them to the most "anime" type of stories. I'm thinking "rule of cool", fluff, isekai, etc.

Horikoshi is one of those authors. Writing manga inspired only manga (whoops, American Comics) and not reality. And while that certainly has a market (anime examples: gurren lagann, kill la kill etc.), and have their own appeal, I think it is sad that the human touch is missing from many modern works.

TL;DR: Horikoshi is missing the human element that makes manga magical. And he has no f*cking clue what he's doing.

---

Thinking about it now, Black Clover is also missing the human element, but then again makes up for it with plot, comedy, battles, teamwork etc.

And yes I suck this series' dick way too much but in the characters' downtime in Chainsawman, and just from the cinematographic panelling and direction, I feel a human element from the series, a movie-like gritty, real-person type of thing, as if the characters are physically there and vulnerable. And I like that a lot. That's just my subjective take as a reader.


---------------------------------



Don't get what you're trying to say, would you mind restating that last sentence?



What's the rundown on this?

When I say it doesn't try to be grand and epic I'm comparing it to other stuff. If All Might vs AfO happened in One Piece, we would get entire chapters of people crying and begging All Might to save them. In mha, that happened to some extent, but it was mostly flashback, inner monologue, lots of talking. It's not that grand, epic things don't happen, it's that the main focus isn't the epicness of it. If One Piece tries to make even the smallest things grand, then mha pushes even the highest stakes to the side to focus in personal motivations. Another example would be Overhaul, that could have been about the dangers of the drug getting out (which was briefly mentioned) but was instead about saving one little girl.

The serial scalation I was talking about was specifically about the stakes, not necessarily the powers (that is kind of a necessity since getting stronger is a staple). The sports festival wasn't a more dire situation than USJ, even though Todoroki was a tougher opponent than the riff-raff Deku fought there. Nerfed All Might is still stronger than Stain, but he wasn't gonna kill Deku and Bakugo. And even if we focus only in villain arcs, there's no real way to tell if the kids were in more danger with Stain or in the forest.

The part about the unique structure was also referring to the entire thing, not just the last line. The unique part is that it's not trying to constantly one-up itself, like most of the genre do.

And about the characters, I just disagree. I think MHA has some of the most human and relatable characters I've seen in the genre, and that's related to the part about not trying to be grand and epic. To compare to One Piece again(because I think it's the perfect opposite in this regard), everything there is over-the-top, and that includes the characters and everything about them: they have over-the-top personalities and over-the-top tragic the backstories. And they're great characters. I love their personalities and feel bad for their backstories, but I could never see them as anything other than fictional characters, because 'my entire country was erased off the face of the planet for studying history' is not something you come across often in life. In contrast, mha is very down-to-earth (relatively speaking), so the characters are normal people with normal stories and normal issues that feel like they could be actual humans. The only actually tragic backstory of the kids is Todoroki, and parents trying to force their kids to achieve their dreams for them is a thing that happens. I'm not trying to say that the characters in mha are better than in OP, because I don't really think so. They're different styles of doing things that try to achieve different things and fit their respective worlds. I'm also pretty sure Horikoshi puts his own experiences there, which is why 3/4 of the cast has self-confidence issues. I'm pretty sure the characters are most of the reason for the series popularity in any case. It wasn't so long ago that everyone pointed the villains as one of the weakest point of the series, and now apparently everyone loves them. Goes to show that Horikoshi only needs a couple chapters to turn any given character into an instant fan-favorite.

With all that said, I don't see how that quote applies here. Mha is clearly not trying to be One Piece, maybe it was a little Naruto in the beginning, but I think that was dropped since the Sports Festival ended, and I don't really see what else could be recycling. Most battle manga (and plenty of other stuff) are always trying to make things bigger and mha...just doesn't. If taking a concept like 'everyone has superpowers' and making it as toned-down as it's in mha in a genre where everything wants to be flashy by default is not breaking new ground, I don't know what is.

 

[savethecat]

Don’t get the criticism of Horikoshi “not knowing what he’s doing.”
MHA has had some “meh” arcs recently, but I think almost every Jump series that’s been going 20+ volumes have had “meh” arcs here and there.

All and all I’ve never got the sense that he didn’t know what he’s doing. The series doesn’t feel aimless at all.
Not only that, but this current arc has been doing a fantastic job developing the villains while keeping the hype and excitement up simultaneously. I can’t really think of Main Jump series that’s given this much care to its villains.

I think Horikoshi’s weakness is training arcs, which is the only time I feel like he doesn’t really know what he’s doing. But as far as the main storyline, developing his characters, and adding on to the plot, I feel that he’s 100% confident with what he’s doing.

 

[CuriousReborn]

He got banned for misconstruing something I said and going off the deep end.

I think he got mad because we talked about how underwhelming the female cast in MHA and just derailed the whole thread calling people out,

 

[savethecat]

Spoiler

I'd like you to also provide some examples where you think they felt "real". I'm just curious. Not provoking anything.

I'll just give examples. I'll be semi-cherry-picking. As in I'll look for pages that have a reasonable amount of dialogue only as who knows if a two-word response or a in-battle shout can be considered "real" or not.

Spoiler

A: Um... so these guys in particular are dangerous.
B: Strategy tings
C: WE'LL KILL THEM
D: First one who makes a move wins so let's get them!

First of all the dialogue is already fucked. Second this dialogue (basically monologue) exists ONLY to remind you "oh yeah that guy is angry." "oh yeah that girl is energetic." Third, I just realized this too, the composition is also fucked. You can't tell who's facing who and who's directing their speech to who. It's not like everyone's paying attention to the speaker at the same time. And by the way half of the characters below we literally don't know and a quarter we haven't known for more than a few chapters. But just from this collage you can already tell so much about their personality.

You'll see in the manga whose dick I keep sucking, everyone is doing something, and everyone is facing someone/something, engaged in their realistic conversational behaviour.

This chapter (20) is a gold mine for painstaking details Fujimoto puts in. Even in the top left panel you see the glasses guy in the right-side of the panel.

He was introduced literally this chapter and by Boku no Hero standards, without a "MY NAME? NANJOU TERUMASA. QUIRK: FIRE EYES. HMPH. I ROAM THE WORLD WITH COLD EYES AND A FIERY HEART", you shouldn't be able to tell anything about him. But just from his non-involvement in this hustle and bustle you can tell something about him without being forcefed. And he's had all of two small panels of screen time so far.

Here is a page of no-stakes banter. Small aside: in Chainsawman all the banter had purpose and introduced new ideas. Here Horikoshi is just bludgeoning us with traits and facts we already know about characters (besides Tokoyami's new apprenticeship). Anyway look at the flow of the conversation.

Tokoyami sneezes.
Someone must be talking about you!
Oh that's right you have fans!
Oh you interned at Hawks's place?

That ENTIRE CONVERSATION was engineered to bring up Hawks and Tokoyami.

In other words we go from sneeze -> Hawks.

And if you think about it, the sneeze->Someone is talking about you itself is a manga meme. (Well more of an Asian meme, but...) It's a train of thought/contrived logic of: "Oh this must be true." "Oh then this must be true." "Oh then Le epic reveal" So many unnatural coincidences.

Finally I avoided all of the "muh character is quirky" type of dialogue like mutter-deku and loud-red-riot and angry-bakugou, since "muh character-based drama", so let's look at this page instead.

Who apologizes super loud in front of a bunch of people for literally MUTTERING that they don't like someone?
All it serves is a nice bookend to the end of the arc - "oh cool our protagonists' efforts are recognized." And it's not even done well. It's just cringe. If you want to defend this by saying it's a manga for kids, and that's why it's so simplified, I guess I could accept that.

Then the bottom left panel is even more sad. Le background characters have been paying close attention this WHOLE time despite never being shown doing that, and now... "you guys have passed it on."

Another phrase that people don't actually say.

That is, of course, unless there's actually significant buildup and a proper place and time to say it.

Like this scene in Ippo for example. This is something that is actually worth passing on, that has so many accumulated emotions that saying a cheesy line is still powerful as fuck. But saying it in the boku no hero panel feels robotic. Oh let's copy and paste another cool manga line. Instead of thinking what humans would think.

That's about it for examples. What are your thoughts on my "analysis"?

These examples aren’t very good.

MHA is a superhero series. Sure there are many kind of superhero stories and comics that read very differently. Movies like The Dark Knight feels very realistic in terms of dialogue.
But in general, superhero stories aren’t know for their “human dialogue”. It going beyond that. Series like Dragon Ball, Naruto, One Piece, etc. the characters feel more like cartoon characters, and act like cartoon characters, rather than real people. Which is fine. That’s the characters they’re trying to write. They’re clearly not trying to create real characters. “Real characters” is more of a preference than an actual criticism.

Chainsaw Man goes for something completely different. This is like comparing an Avengers Movie to a Tarantino movie. Both are going for completely different things.

Regarding things like panelling, MHA has many examples of good paneling throughout the series, and many examples of characters doing tons of actions in its panels. I’m sure if Chainsaw Man runs for dozens of volumes we’d be able to find chapters and pages where the MHA example you provided happens in Chainsaw Man as well. I know you stated you were cherry picking, but that’s just admitting that you looked for the worst example you could find for MHA, and the best example you could find for Chainsaw Man

 

[Belkac3m]

I dropped MHA after about 30 chapters, and one of the reasons is that the characters do not feel real, and it's often the same thing with WSJ mangas, some authors should go out, have new experiences.
It makes me think of why I really love bakuon rettou, the author is a former bōsōzoku, he was part of a rock band, which allows him to tell what he really experienced.

 

[Xzone]

Don't get what you're trying to say, would you mind restating that last sentence?

Is simple, what are you feeling with Chainsaw for example is the hype , the false emotion that the series is bigger than that, when the series is trying to say is better than it is.They're many form of hype.

In Kimetsu , MHA and Bleach, the hype is the main villain, you want to see Muzan/UM1, OfA and Aizen with all his power, because is powerful enemy. When Aizen and OfA were defeated, it left you a weird feel because with that foe defeated you see the series with other eyes.

In World trigger ,Kimetu, Black Clover had a different hype, the evolution of the author skill make you think "the series is now better" blinding you into thinking is better than other series(I love World Trigger and is one of my favorites nekketsu , but right now is not better than My hero academia) . Kimetsu is the biggest example of this hype, the author has many writing problem;it try to make you feels sad with character you barely knew (chainsawman is also guilty in that, because is not like I can empathize with most of the character in that series) and the power-scaling is pretty dumb, but in the end how the author write it made you can eat that , and the hype around it make you forget their problem.

But well,that emotion + a unique style of writing (like gotouge and fujimoto) made you wanting to read what is next and thinking is better than it is.In the end , we want series that feels better that it is , because we want more DIO vs Jotaro and less Shaman King final battle.

I'm not saying Chainsawman or Kimetsu are bad, but I feel that people try to mix the "This series entertain me more" with "This series is objectively stronger".

 

[101nemesis]

People are heavily criticizing MHA while praising BC !?
Is this an alternative universe?

 

[Belkac3m]

The cinematic paneling in chainsaw man make it pleasant to read, the last 2 chapters are excellent. I hope Fujimoto will improve his anatomy and his perspective drawing.

 

[Xzone]

People are heavily criticizing MHA while praising BC !?
Is this an alternative universe?

I dropped BC like in 30 chapter, but if people prefer the series good for them.
Still, I felt that the weekely "BC is better than MHA" topic is people who read BC since the beginning that try to defend their manga honor because know have proof that they read a "superior" manga(but well, most people who read BC and still didn't like it dropped it years ago).
Shitty console wars, tho.

 

[tirakai]

The #1 BC critic did get banned after all. Speaking of which I think Black Clover the series I'm most curious about where it'll go next, the current arc feels like the climax of part 1 and while there's a few things here and there it could use as the next main direction it's still mostly unknown what's specifically coming next (besides of course probably a cooldown arc for the fallout of these events and crowning the new wizard).

Personally my only current issue with MHA is Facepalm, he just feels like a bit of a joke villain to me rather than intimidating which he's clearly meant to be. Toga and Twice and the other Stain fanboy villains are fun, but Shigaraki just feels like a weak guy who mostly hides and doesn't tie the others together well. Maybe that's the point, idunno, but even so portraying a villain as a weak child who runs away a lot doesn't make for the most engaging content. Reminds me of Inuyasha a bit honestly, where the main antagonist there was the weakest part of the series because all he did was lose then run away repeatedly. Hopefully the current arc will start his growth into a character who feels worth of the primary antagonist role rather than a throwaway villain who's stuck around too long.

On the Chainsawman side, I'm glad the rankings have improved and it's finding its place in the magazine, Fujimoto's a master of escalating weirdness and I'm really curious to see how he now that it can make proper long term plans.

 

[CuriousReborn]

Not only that, but this current arc has been doing a fantastic job developing the villains while keeping the hype and excitement up simultaneously. I can’t really think of Main Jump series that’s given this much care to its villains.

By introducing new characters that no one cares about who all know everything about them to force them to grow, every villain is just giving us info on the league members, it feels forced? Not really sure thats the right word but it doesn't feel like a natural read.

 

[101nemesis]

I dropped BC like in 30 chapter, but if people prefer the series good for them.
Still, I felt that the weekely "BC is better than MHA" topic is people who read BC since the beginning that try to defend their manga honor because know have proof that they read a "superior" manga(but well, most people who read BC and still didn't like it dropped it years ago).
Shitty console wars, tho.

Haha yeah, I don't really care at the moment. I've stopped MHA like 3 months ago. I don't have the time and I didn't find it interesting enough at that time to keep reading. I'll probably read all the pending chapters in one sitting sooner or later.

I'm glad BC is being enjoyed tho. It shows the mangaka is learning and improving.
Hopefully this translates to better sales. Doubt it but you'll never know.

 

[Halloween]

I realize this is mostly personal and stuff but as much as Chainsawman and BC are hyped here, I just totally can't get into them because I don't like their main characters like at all. What's weird about it is it's not as if I dislike them because I don't understand them --I do, and I get how they fit in their respective worlds I just totally do not like them on a personal level which keeps me from enjoying the rest of the series. It is really a shame since it sounds like BC is a fun time and I like Chainsawman's artwork but as long as I have a strong dislike of the leads I can't really get into them, unfortunately.

While I don't agree with your assessment of those characters, I do actually agree with your overall point of the MCs being important in overall enjoyment of the series.

That's EXACTLY the reason I can't get into MHA. I do not like Deku on practically any level. He's actively off-putting to me. Even if I can agree the rest of the series is well-done, it wouldn't matter for me, ultimately.

 

[tirakai]

Does anyone else currently read everything in WSJ? Everyone's talking about stuff they've dropped but personally I love sitting down on Monday after work just spending a couple hours reading through all the new chapters together. Especially now that Manga+ even has the flops and gag stuff in English right away (I'm sad there's no Yuuna on there but sometimes it's out in time to read alongside everything else).

There's stuff I don't like much of course but that's part of the experience for me, it's fun to see all the ups and downs each week together and compare their ranking with what I think of stuff putting them all side by side. The only thing I don't really read is Bort but I always give it a quick skim through at least and it's only monthly anyway.

 

[OtterBrigade]

I used to try and read everything but I just got bored with some stuff (some of it axed, some still running) so I gave up on that. I do try everything new (including the Jump+ stuff) in case I end up liking it though.

 

[savethecat]

By introducing new characters that no one cares about who all know everything about them to force them to grow, every villain is just giving us info on the league members, it feels forced? Not really sure thats the right word but it doesn't feel like a natural read.

The new villains are mainly for our main villains to have someone to fight. The current arc feels like it’s meant for LoV’s development.
So far we’ve gotten

Spoiler

Toga’s backstory and development of her quirk. And Twice overcoming his mental illness momentarily so he can save Toga.

And I’m sure we’ll get Dabi development and Shigaraki development down the line.

The arc is doing a good job showing the comradery between the LoV, and that they genuinely view each other’s as friends and family, rather than just tools(like other villain organizations such as The Akatsuki and the Espada).

 

[Ctkk]

By introducing new characters that no one cares about who all know everything about them to force them to grow, every villain is just giving us info on the league members, it feels forced? Not really sure thats the right word but it doesn't feel like a natural read.

That's most definitely true. Horikoshi clearly cares more about the 'what' than the 'how'. I think he has the scenes he wants to draw in his mind and wants to get there as soon as possible, so he has no qualms over contriving the situation as much as needs to make it happen. I'm not sure if he has the skill, but he doesn't seem to have the patience for slow build-ups. Heck, Deku has randomly bumped into the villain of the arc on two separate of occasions, one of which was in the longest arc to date, which you'd think would have more build-up, but no. The fact we're 200 chapters in and only one arc spans more than a couple volumes is pretty telling. And by the end of that arc Horikoshi seemed to just want to get it over with, so I'm not sure he'll even attempt that length again. He likes it short and to-the-point without paying much attention to details. I can see how all that could bother many people, but quick, straightforward, self-contained arcs can have their own appeal.

 

[LuckyJim]

Does anyone else currently read everything in WSJ? Everyone's talking about stuff they've dropped but personally I love sitting down on Monday after work just spending a couple hours reading through all the new chapters together. Especially now that Manga+ even has the flops and gag stuff in English right away (I'm sad there's no Yuuna on there but sometimes it's out in time to read alongside everything else).

There's stuff I don't like much of course but that's part of the experience for me, it's fun to see all the ups and downs each week together and compare their ranking with what I think of stuff putting them all side by side. The only thing I don't really read is Bort but I always give it a quick skim through at least and it's only monthly anyway.

I read everything except One Piece (for obvious reasons, but I occasionally skim through a chapter), Haikyuu (again, it's just really long to catch up on), Jujutsu Kaisen (only one I actually dropped) and Kimetsu no Yaiba (I've been watching the anime for this one, I'll catch up on the manga when it's done).

 

[Xzone]

The fact we're 200 chapters in and only one arc spans more than a couple volumes is pretty telling.

Tbf,the only ongoing battle shonen(that aren't OP or HxH) that have an arc with +30 chapter , is Kimetsu's Red Light District Arc,MHA's Yakuza arc, World trigger's Large invasion and B-Rank wars arcs.