Discussion The Holy war

[Meliodaf]

The Demons do seem to be much more evil. For example, they are hellbent on exterminating all humans now, while the same isn't true of the Goddess Clan, as far as we know. Nakaba has not even stated the reason why Sariel and Tarmiel were trying to get many of the Holy Knights killed off with "Cheat Hope". If they want to win, I don't really see the point of letting the humans working for them die. Maybe to save magical energy? But that's a stretch.


It also doesn't help that all Red demons and such seem to clearly be the ugly mindless evil monster type, and these lesser demons presumably make up the majority of the clan. They all consume souls with great joy and love genocide. We don't even know if it was any different back in the first holy war, or if they still just mercilessly erased from existence all or most of those they killed. While "Purge" shows that the GC did the same to demons, we know that probably isn't the case a significant portion of the time, based on Mael's backstory, as otherwise Ludociel could not have brainwashed him. And Elizabeth's 'Purification' magic shows that darkness seems to be basically evil, even if a tenth of the time Nakaba tries to say Demons aren't bad. So how are Demons not the villains?

Makes you wonder why the Goddess clan even started the holy war in the first place. They are all free of disease, they live 1000 years, and it doesn't seem like they ever have internal wars. The holy war is meant to be over the magical power of the land, but you don't need higher PLs for combat if there is no war. The kind of reason I would probably use is that they could use that magical power to improve their quality of life, especially if they also took over the Demon Realm and converted it into a second Celestial Realm with their magic or something. For example, longer lifespans due to more magic power available to the GC, or the potential to perform some major project that the SD could never do with just one world's power. Overall, it would be best if we learned that even the SD has limits, like not simply being able to spam "Eternal Life" or "Perpetual Reincarnation" spells on anyone she wants, as otherwise the whole premise of the holy war would become pretty stupid. Same with the DK.

Ok this is the last time I ever acknowledge the idea one of these mirror image clans is better than the other.

The Color demons aren’t mindless a large percentage of them are actually being forced to do what they do. And despite being forced there are some that still manage to walk away. No all of them don’t like to do anything. There are color demons who actually don’t want to fight and Elizabeth saves them. There are other Demons like them who have walked away after meeting Elizabeth and then were brought back to fight by the Commandments.

 

[levi12]

you guys are arguing about DK and Supreme deity being bad or evi

Kinda off-topic theme but the Supreme Deity:

• Burned and massacred and entire city because she was trolled by a little girl.
• Killed her own daughter and never cared for the fact that she suffered for 3.000 years.
• Is responsable of the killing of innocent civil demons who didn't partcipate in the war. Basically gave an ideology of discrimination to her clan.

All these things are things that the Demon King did as well. Both gods are responsable for the bad things that happened in the whole series.
Sure, Nakaba can make her show up and show that her true intentions were actually good. But so far, what we know of the SD is thanks to the DK, they're practically partners in crime. Calling her "good" doesn't make much sense by knowing all the killing she's responsable for.
She's basically the second main antagonist of the whole curse subplot.
The "is she for villan material?" is a different debate, though.

I agree with you You guys think Supreme deity is good and DK is bad only is bullshit. Both are bad and done many horrible things

Why the hell you people double standarding Supreme deity. Who advocate discrimination and genocidal of race of Demon clan Good or bad demon is atrocious and evil. Demon king and Demon clan may have been more active in causing destruction and mayhem. Mel/Estarrosa,Supreme deity and Lucodiel ain t good guys as they are racist and advocate Genocide.

Meliodas and Elizabeth are also are to blame as they are reason everything is a mess and they are not sinless either. Betray their clan and people for their selfish desire to be together And their love. In my opinion as I do like Meliodas he deserve to get punish and elizabeth as well but not to extent DK and SD did to them. They should be both be punish for being extremely selfish. Zeldris hatred and blaming on Meliodas and Elizabeth is justified.

Overall answer DK and SD are both evil and bad. Both Demon clan and Goddes clan are terrible but Demon clan are slighlty more so due To Demon king who wants to bring terror and destruction to Brittania.

But saying Supreme deity and Goddess clan are good is bullshit.

Don t forget Goddess clan is the one who start the war and meliodas trigger it. Goddess clan is the blame for the war and Meliodas. So Goddess clan and Supreme deity are as horrible as bad as nearly Demon clan only being slighty better because DK is worse.

 

[Meliodaf]

I understand it to some degree but I can’t agree with the idea that Meliodas and Elizabeth are selfish for betraying their clans because the reality of the situation is they don’t owe any of them anything. The Demons and Goddesses chose this and i can’t call them selfish for choosing different. If they stuck around I doubt the result changes and if it does it only gets worse. They all deserved what they got. The Goddesses especially because they started the War when they took advantage of Meliodas abandoning the Demon Clan. They’re not the reason everything is a mess. Everything is a mess because other Demons and Goddesses refused to stop fighting. And they make their own decisions. Selfish is the idea that Meliodas and Elizabeth should live a certain way because their clans want to fight. There’s a reason Jenna and Zaneri are still alive.

If we’re being honest what happened to Zeldris, Ludociel, Mael(Especially him)and a few others is their own fault. They chose their path. True selfishness is the idea that Elizabeth and Meliodas had to choose the same stupid path.

 

[levi12]

I understand it to some degree but I can’t agree with the idea that Meliodas and Elizabeth are selfish for betraying their clans because the reality of the situation is they don’t owe any of them anything. The Demons and Goddesses chose this and i can’t call them selfish for choosing different. If they stuck around I doubt the result changes and if it does it only gets worse. They all deserved what they got. The Goddesses especially because they started the War when they took advantage of Meliodas abandoning the Demon Clan. They’re not the reason everything is a mess. Everything is a mess because other Demons and Goddesses refused to stop fighting. And they make their own decisions. Selfish is the idea that Meliodas and Elizabeth should live a certain way because their clans want to fight. There’s a reason Jenna and Zaneri are still alive.

If we’re being honest what happened to Zeldris, Ludociel, Mael(Especially him)and a few others is their own fault. They chose their path. True selfishness is the idea that Elizabeth and Meliodas had to choose the same stupid path.

You still deny the fact the whole Thing got worse and war happen because Meliodas betray Demon clan hence let the war happen again, Vampire got destroy and Goddess clan starting the war because meliodas betrayal. Meliodas is selfish back then for not caring of the circumstances and consequences of his actions back then that lead to the war and elizabeth is to blame for the same reason.

They don t owed them anything but they are their respective clansmen,comrades and some family they betray their own people for their own love that is what you call selfish. They did not take heed to realise what their actions could have lead and cause.

I am not hating on meliodas and elizabeth. But the sins are on them as well along with SD, Dk, Goddess clan and Demon clan. They are all the blame Elizabeth and Meliodas make it worse though and the one who trigger it

 

[kkck]

you guys are arguing about DK and Supreme deity being bad or evi

I agree with you You guys think Supreme deity is good and DK is bad only is bullshit. Both are bad and done many horrible things

Why the hell you people double standarding Supreme deity. Who advocate discrimination and genocidal of race of Demon clan Good or bad demon is atrocious and evil. Demon king and Demon clan may have been more active in causing destruction and mayhem. Mel/Estarrosa,Supreme deity and Lucodiel ain t good guys as they are racist and advocate Genocide.

Meliodas and Elizabeth are also are to blame as they are reason everything is a mess and they are not sinless either. Betray their clan and people for their selfish desire to be together And their love. In my opinion as I do like Meliodas he deserve to get punish and elizabeth as well but not to extent DK and SD did to them. They should be both be punish for being extremely selfish. Zeldris hatred and blaming on Meliodas and Elizabeth is justified.

Overall answer DK and SD are both evil and bad. Both Demon clan and Goddes clan are terrible but Demon clan are slighlty more so due To Demon king who wants to bring terror and destruction to Brittania.

But saying Supreme deity and Goddess clan are good is bullshit.

Don t forget Goddess clan is the one who start the war and meliodas trigger it. Goddess clan is the blame for the war and Meliodas. So Goddess clan and Supreme deity are as horrible as bad as nearly Demon clan only being slighty better because DK is worse.

Wait, what did the goddess clan do to start the war? Nothing we know evidences that. As far as we know both clans had been at each other's throats for a long time and the war as we have seen it started when the balance of power was broken via meliodas defecting. Nothing we know of actually evidences the goddess clan specifically started the conflicts or the war.

 

[levi12]

Wait, what did the goddess clan do to start the war? Nothing we know evidences that. As far as we know both clans had been at each other's throats for a long time and the war as we have seen it started when the balance of power was broken via meliodas defecting. Nothing we know of actually evidences the goddess clan specifically started the conflicts or the war.

It was said Goddess clan broke a treaty with demon clan slaughter woman and children they were holding prisoners. They did it again after meliodas betray Demon clan. Goddess clan are scum and cunning. Goddess clan broke treaty and start war again against Demon clan in It was said in the wiki and they seized opportunity to destroy Demon clan when Demon clan lost meliodas due to meliodas betrayal.

I am confuse how can you guys label SD and Goddess clan good when they slaughters prisoners of war and advocate genocide and racism??

 

[kkck]

It was said Goddess clan broke a treaty with demon clan slaughter woman and children they were holding prisoners. They did it again after meliodas betray Demon clan. Goddess clan are scum and cunning. Goddess clan broke treaty and start war again against Demon clan in It was said in the wiki and they seized opportunity to destroy Demon clan when Demon clan lost meliodas due to meliodas betrayal.

I am confuse how can you guys label SD and Goddess clan good when they slaughters prisoners of war and advocate genocide and racism??

Eh, those are the same event, they didn't do it "again" as far as we know. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for derieri to have been so keen on working a deal with the goddesses when elizabeth appeared before her. Regardless of whether the goddess clan are good or evil, we don't know who started the conflict.

 

[levi12]

Eh, those are the same event, they didn't do it "again" as far as we know. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for derieri to have been so keen on working a deal with the goddesses when elizabeth appeared before her. Regardless of whether the goddess clan are good or evil, we don't know who started the conflict.

Oh then my mistake then as I stated what I said.SD and Goddess clan are not good they are nearly as bad as Demon clan only demon clan is worse because Demon king is worst then all of them. I don t want to hear people say Goddess clan are good and Demon clan is bad is being shortsighted.

But it was goddess clan who startedThev war it was said Goddess clan who broke the peace treaty with Demon clan.

 

[Merlin918]

Ok this is the last time I ever acknowledge the idea one of these mirror image clans is better than the other.

The Color demons aren’t mindless a large percentage of them are actually being forced to do what they do. And despite being forced there are some that still manage to walk away. No all of them don’t like to do anything. There are color demons who actually don’t want to fight and Elizabeth saves them. There are other Demons like them who have walked away after meeting Elizabeth and then were brought back to fight by the Commandments.

True, I suppose. But they still seemed pretty braindead evil back in the time. Like with the one that razes the FKF.

I get that they are supposed to not be generic evil, but it seems like Nakaba is very inconsistent on this, with the other points i have brought up.

 

[Undina]

True, I suppose. But they still seemed pretty braindead evil back in the time. Like with the one that razes the FKF.

I get that they are supposed to not be generic evil, but it seems like Nakaba is very inconsistent on this, with the other points i have brought up.

Tbh, it's pretty easy to believe that the Red Demon who attacked the FKF had been forced into it/manipulated by Fraudrin to do so. His abilities and tricks haven't been really explored beyond Full Size and the possession, but remember that he did bring a horde of beasts, dragons etc to Danafor when he attacked it. I forgot his rank(was he a general?) in the DC army, but he had authority over coloured demons.

 

[Estarossa173]

Since when has ANY of the low tier demons been forced into fighting? How does anyone know that they didn’t what to do things such as killing or devouring souls?

 

[Merlin918]

Tbh, it's pretty easy to believe that the Red Demon who attacked the FKF had been forced into it/manipulated by Fraudrin to do so. His abilities and tricks haven't been really explored beyond Full Size and the possession, but remember that he did bring a horde of beasts, dragons etc to Danafor when he attacked it. I forgot his rank(was he a general?) in the DC army, but he had authority over coloured demons.

Meh. Idk, seems like he was acting alone. But yes, I get it that Nakaba decided not all of the mooks are bad later on. It just seems like the 'generic evil' factor was stronger earlier in the story, and Nakaba is ambivalent about this. The Dark=Evil trope is still pretty strongly present in most of the ten commandments.

 

[Undina]

Meh. Idk, seems like he was acting alone. But yes, I get it that Nakaba decided not all of the mooks are bad later on. It just seems like the 'generic evil' factor was stronger earlier in the story, and Nakaba is ambivalent about this. The Dark=Evil trope is still pretty strongly present in most of the ten commandments.

Actually, I'm seeing a twist in the Dark=Evil idea in this series, nowadays it feels more like the demons were highly prejudiced, just like the goddesses. Most of the members of both clans still are, as there are the members of the other clans, but that's why the Sins are such a diverse group, to translate things into a bit more openmindedness. Pretty sure that tactic won't be as successful as expected by the heroes, but some of the better known characters get development like this and the readers(the actually young ones, still growing and learning about the world) are subjected to a saner view which criticizes racism.

 

[Meliodaf]

Since when has ANY of the low tier demons been forced into fighting? How does anyone know that they didn’t what to do things such as killing or devouring souls?

Sariel explains that lower ranked Demons are forced by higher rank demons. The Demons that were there when Estarossa went crazy were being forced into fighting by Chandler and Cusack. We’ve seen Derieri bring Demons that said they didn’t want to fight after seeing Elizabeth back

True, I suppose. But they still seemed pretty braindead evil back in the time. Like with the one that razes the FKF.

I get that they are supposed to not be generic evil, but it seems like Nakaba is very inconsistent on this, with the other points i have brought up.

If you want to see lesser Demons that don’t look like mindless monsters, when Gowther saves Mael there’s a flashback of Mael looking for civilian demons that are hiding and then he murders them as they beg him not to.

 

[Undina]

Sariel explains that lower ranked Demons are forced by higher rank demons. The Demons that were there when Estarossa went crazy were being forced into fighting by Chandler and Cusack. We’ve seen Derieri bring Demons that said they didn’t want to fight after seeing Elizabeth back


If you want to see lesser Demons that don’t look like mindless monsters, when Gowther saves Mael there’s a flashback of Mael looking for civilian demons that are hiding and then he murders them as they beg him not too.

Plus, in the hostages ark sphere there were inferior demons, a set even looked like humanoid sharks and seemed to be a parent and child, with the parent protectively hugging the child.

 

[Merlin918]

Actually, I'm seeing a twist in the Dark=Evil idea in this series, nowadays it feels more like the demons were highly prejudiced, just like the goddesses. Most of the members of both clans still are, as there are the members of the other clans, but that's why the Sins are such a diverse group, to translate things into a bit more openmindedness. Pretty sure that tactic won't be as successful as expected by the heroes, but some of the better known characters get development like this and the readers(the actually young ones, still growing and learning about the world) are subjected to a saner view which criticizes racism.

I guess Nakaba has included some things along those lines. Still really seems like he goes back and forth on that for the reasons I mentioned though. What i dislike is that he sort of 'forgets' about some things and treats them like they never happened. It lowers the level of realism when everyone just forgets right away about big atrocities that someone did quite recently, like how Nakaba never really gives many details on just how far the human extermination plan went. For example if those countries besides Camelot that the 10C conquered got totally wiped out to the last man(among those who didn't get away at least), as that was their plan the whole time, and nobody stopped them for a month.

It's at least a whole lot better than how some other manga do this at the least, as those who do 180s here usually end up dying rather than turning into outright good guys, or have to do something to make up for what they did earlier, often dying as a result. Some like Derierre/Monspiet were still pretty poorly handled tho but it is what it is. I would have had Gloxinia/Dolor's treason in the holy war come with a catch that this got the 10C to agree not to exterminate those in the Fairy/Giant lands no matter what, so long as they submitted to the demons, but oh well. At least they took initiative in betraying the 10C unlike Derierre/Monspiet.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

Rudociel didnt. And she pushed both back on her own. The other three were helpless.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 12, 2019 ---

This is actually a misconception. She remembered her immunity the second she was petrified. It just took her months to break the commandment even with her immunity, which is why she remarked it was a particularly impressive commandment.



Not gonna deny this. Her portrayal was fine until the 4C Mael and DK fights.



This is a very good point.

Ludo wasn't helpless, he was going to go full power and kill them but Elizabeth interfered

 

[Aldan]

Ludo wasn't helpless, he was going to go full power and kill them but Elizabeth interfered

What evidence is there for this?? What is this "full power" mode? Ludo could freaking no sell the Sinner without even using his Grace. Ludo is absurdly powerful, but the Indura were simply out of his league. He couldnt so much as scratch them

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 12, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 12, 2019 ---

Although, in all honesty the Sinner was so weak compared to his two halves that I honestly dont know if this is a feat anymore XD

 

[GreaterForce]

Ludo holding back against the Induras or having some special technique up his sleeve is a pretty silly concept as a whole nowadays. First of all, if he had such a thing he'd have used it against the Sinner, the top ranked Demons, or the Demon King. Second of all, literally nothing even suggests he has such a hidden trump card in the first place, the Indura were clearly just stronger than him. Him maintaining his arrogant and boastful position by saying only now would he take it all the way isn't proof of a hidden power, it's simply further proof Ludoshel as of the Holy War was an arrogant bullshitter.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

What evidence is there for this?? What is this "full power" mode? Ludo could freaking no sell the Sinner without even using his Grace. Ludo is absurdly powerful, but the Indura were simply out of his league. He couldnt so much as scratch them

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 12, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 12, 2019 ---

Although, in all honesty the Sinner was so weak compared to his two halves that I honestly dont know if this is a feat anymore XD

I mean ludo did say that "if you are going this far so will I, in the name of four Archangels"
And at that time Elizabeth showed up so definitely ludo wasn't going all out that time against the induras.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 12, 2019 ---

He had many attacks which he could have used against them like lightening spree, super king drive, gold shinning etc