One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[XXGenesis]

Zoro isn't slow cut it out. But lightspeed I don't know how he never dodged any of Kizaru lasers. They were moving before he fired.

@nik87 I love debating with bro. But youbrlly be stretching it sometimes
.nobody has Lightspeed feats in One Piece. Besides Kizaru, who still didn't seem to move at Lightspeed against the SN

 

[nik87]

Zoro isn't slow cut it out. But lightspeed I don't know how he never dodged any of Kizaru lasers. They were moving before he fired.

@nik87 I love debating with bro. But youbrlly be stretching it sometimes
.nobody has Lightspeed feats in One Piece. Besides Kizaru, who still didn't seem to move at Lightspeed against the SN

I understand you completely but there is still hierarchy what is faster and what is slower and whatever that is connected to lightspeed should still be fastest whether it actually is at that speed or not. Unless Oda isnt basing things on real-world physics, which isnt the case.
Kizaru cheap-shotted Zoro in Sabaody.

 

[XXGenesis]

I understand you completely but there is still hierarchy what is faster and what is slower and whatever that is connected to lightspeed should still be fastest whether it actually is at that speed or not. Unless Oda isnt basing things on real-world physics, which isnt the case.
Kizaru cheap-shotted Zoro in Sabaody.

I personally don't like such references unless the story gives us such feats. EX. Naruto..

Also real world calculations to see how fast a manga character was actually moving is the stupidest nerdy thing u ever hurd of lol.

My point. Yes Chracters like Brook, Luffy are known to be speedy. Zoro & other chracters of his type don't highlight speed or how fast they are. Yet this doesn't dampen their own speed which is still sufficient enough to take out strong foes.

But speed of sound or light speed?? I believe chracters move under the speed of sound. & use FS or CoO to dodge light speed attacks.

So it's not like Zoro's speed only comes from how fast he can move his sword i.e attack speed . But also from his footwork and movement, is sufficient against top tiers

 

[Pirate Queen]

I understand you completely but there is still hierarchy what is faster and what is slower and whatever that is connected to lightspeed should still be fastest whether it actually is at that speed or not. Unless Oda isnt basing things on real-world physics, which isnt the case.
Kizaru cheap-shotted Zoro in Sabaody.

No, dodging whatever a man made of mochi can do is not more impressive than dodging laser shot. Unless it was specifically confirmed that Katakuri's attacks travel at speed of light or anywhere close, they arent as fast as laser shots.
Also, Luffy didnt dodge anything after abdomen spear hit.

Kuma leaving Zoro, who is almost dead, to take on all the pain and fatigue that Luffy sustained surely doesn't sound like he didnt mean to kill him and also confirmed that Zoro would die...

I am basing my arguments on what was shown in the manga and that was the most impressive evasive feat shown so far among all Strawhats.


I dont know if one can be less biased if they base their arguments on proof from manga and logic of real-world physics...
Unless you want to tell that laser shots travel at the speed of slug, well, I would like to see that argument.

Like Brandish said, the plot elements will make characters do incredible things in order to survive so whether that laser is at light speed indeed or not, Zoro dodged in half dead state and is the most impressive evasive feat provided in the manga that I know of.
Deflecting air at light speed and the same air isnt traveling at light speed doesnt make sense either and is more connected to light speed than anything Katakuri showed.

Luffy dodged the same lasers and yet didnt dodge Katakuri's power mochi hits which are significantly slower. For the purpose of the story, such things happen. No need to question all the other instances for Zoro, Luffy or anyone else but if you want to find the best instances for evasive maneuvers, there you have it.

Zoro is also a record holder for attack speed(frequency) if we take the panel as measurement since in manga there is no time.
1. Santoryu Yasha Garasu - 63 hits per panel
2. Yasakani no Magatama - 40 hits per panel
3. Gomu Gomu no Storm - ~26 hits per panel

Air cannot move as fast as light, how is this even a debate. You say Oda uses real world ohysics but that isnt the case.

The SCIENCE does not back up your claim. The translation was WRONG lol. Kuma hits the air at "light speed" (and even this is debatable) and sends out those cannons. The air paws itself dont move at light speed.

Your saying Zoro can dodge light speed, but has NEVER shown anything close to that speed again? He just slowed down? Healthy Zoro is slower than half dead Zoro pre-timeskip?

The more we debate the more I think you just dont understand the concepts being presented to you.

You are showing manga panels as proof, but aren't assessing them correctly.

Your just reaching, like Genesis says.

It's not enough for you that Zoro is just a BEAST

He has to be faster than Kizaru
More lethal than Akainu
Can endure more than Whitebeard

(Of course I'm joking with the above)

Hell, let's just give Zoro the title WSS and save everyone the trouble, he was quicker than Mihawk pretime skip. Give him PK title too lol He's got the feats to back it up.

 

[nik87]

Air cannot move as fast as light, how is this even a debate. You say Oda uses real world ohysics but that isnt the case.

The SCIENCE does not back up your claim. The translation was WRONG lol. Kuma hits the air at "light speed" (and even this is debatable) and sends out those cannons. The air paws itself dont move at light speed.

Your saying Zoro can dodge light speed, but has NEVER shown anything close to that speed again? He just slowed down? Healthy Zoro is slower than half dead Zoro pre-timeskip?

The more we debate the more I think you just dont understand the concepts being presented to you.

You are showing manga panels as proof, but aren't assessing them correctly.

Your just reaching, like Genesis says.

It's not enough for you that Zoro is just a BEAST

He has to be faster than Kizaru
More lethal than Akainu
Can endure more than Whitebeard

(Of course I'm joking with the above)

Hell, let's just give Zoro the title WSS and save everyone the trouble, he was quicker than Mihawk pretime skip. Give him PK title too lol He's got the feats to back it up.

Correct it cannot move at speed of light but if it is deflected at speed of light, how much slower can it be? It's air after all, it barely has any mass. Light shots aside, it has to be the next fastest thing. What do you mean it's not based on real world physics? On what is it based then? Why was iron body hard to cut and why is diamond expected to be even harder? Those are real-world physics. Oda exaggerates them a lot but still, there is nothing else to base it on...

Like I already said and Brandish explained as well, at certain moments in story characters do incredible things. Luffy has dodged the same laser and yet he slowed down too when you compare it to other moments. However, if you look for the best performance ever shown in the manga, evading light shots is the best performance.

Hey, I am just presenting what I see in the manga. If you have a problem with it take it up with Oda. If we arent debating based on feats provided by manga, what are we debating based on then, headcanon of each of us?

No doubt that there are characters faster than Zoro but have they shown such feats that are backed up with manga? And that science doesnt back up my claim thing, provide link that backs up the opposite, please.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Imagine if Hawkins got in the good Grace's enough to be a 1st commander to a Yonko like Kaido or BM who ALLOWED his to use them as a doll.

He'd be damn near just as invulnerable as them!

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 8, 2019 ---

Light shots aside, it has to be the next fastest thing. What do you mean it's not based on real world physics? On what is it based then? Why was iron body hard to cut and why is diamond expected to be even harder? Those are real-world physics. Oda exaggerates them a lot but still, there is nothing else to base it on...

Like I already said and Brandish explained as well, at certain moments in story characters do incredible things. Luffy has dodged the same laser and yet he slowed down too when you compare it to other moments. However, if you look for the best performance ever shown in the manga, evading light shots is the best performance.

Hey, I am just presenting what I see in the manga. If you have a problem with it take it up with Oda. If we arent debating based on feats provided by manga, what are we debating based on then, headcanon of each of us?

No doubt that there are characters faster than Zoro but have they shown such feats that are backed up with manga? And that science doesnt back up my claim thing, provide link that backs up the opposite, please.

I certainly dont have a problem with what Oda does in the manga, but if as you say, Ida uses real world physics then I absolutely have the right to scientifically break down why you AND Oda, are wrong.

I personally do not think he uses real world physics like you do, so we are going to differ on key points and walk away still believing what we believe. That's why I like debating you. I truly believe that what you think is correct.

"Correct it cannot move at speed of light but if it is deflected at speed of light, how much slower can it be? It's air after all, it barely has any mass."

That's not how science works, that's not how any of this works...

(I have always wanted to use that in a post. Ty lol)

Light travels so fast because it has no mass, 0. Wind, does have mass, not much, but some. At the point of Kuma actially releasing his paw cannon, it's speed can lose as much as 99% of its speed. I say 99% because we dont know the total mass of the paw canon itself. Hell it could be as little as 1% but even 1 percent of light speed is ridiculous, but easily manageable in a manga like One Piece.

So when you say stuff like an imaginary world like One Piece follows real world science... that's a no for me dawg.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2019 ---

All that being said, Zoro has mass, so he cannot scientifically move at the speed of light.... Let alone in a half dead state.

And if you wanna follow read world science. That video mentioned proves Luffy can move over 10 times the speed of sound.

So both in real world and manga, Luffy can evade faster than Zoro.

Damn I'm on a roll today lol

 

[nik87]

To elaborate more on my arguments. The logic on OJ is very different than logic here on MH and I have been arguing lately on OJ and they only accept the proof from the manga. If the character didnt sneeze on panel the character cannot sneeze, that kind of logic. And since I was arguing with Moe and his logic is OJ logic, I had to bring that logic over here.
Your reaction to my arguments is understandable as I reacted the same when I encountered OJ logic for the first time, lol.

Of course Zoro is not the fastest at evading if we use healthy logic but if we use the OJ logic, what is the best feat provided by the manga, then he may very well be. It is hard to argue with the two logics clashing.

I certainly dont have a problem with what Oda does in the manga, but if as you say, Ida uses real world physics then I absolutely have the right to scientifically break down why you AND Oda, are wrong.
I personally do not think he uses real world physics like you do, so we are going to differ on key points and walk away still believing what we believe. That's why I like debating you. I truly believe that what you think is correct.
"Correct it cannot move at speed of light but if it is deflected at speed of light, how much slower can it be? It's air after all, it barely has any mass."
That's not how science works, that's not how any of this works...
(I have always wanted to use that in a post. Ty lol)
Light travels so fast because it has no mass, 0. Wind, does have mass, not much, but some. At the point of Kuma actially releasing his paw cannon, it's speed can lose as much as 99% of its speed. I say 99% because we dont know the total mass of the paw canon itself. Hell it could be as little as 1% but even 1 percent of light speed is ridiculous, but easily manageable in a manga like One Piece.
So when you say stuff like an imaginary world like One Piece follows real world science... that's a no for me dawg.

I think the hierarchy of speed is still sticking to real-world physics perfectly fine. We havent seen things outspeed things which they shouldnt.
I think you are wrong about Kuma's air pad canon. He can deflect a person, as large as Chopper's Monster Point form, to make them disappear in an instant, for all present to be unaware of what happened. If that is not close to light speed, I dont know what else is.
There is a huge difference between wind and air pad cannon. The wind is not deflected at light speed, air pad cannons are. Zoro saw the attack coming before it was shot and still grazed him on the forehead, it was so fast he couldnt dodge it fully, not to speak about all others being helpless against that attack as well. It is ridiculously fast, no doubt.

All that being said, Zoro has mass, so he cannot scientifically move at the speed of light.... Let alone in a half dead state.
And if you wanna follow read world science. That video mentioned proves Luffy can move over 10 times the speed of sound.
So both in real world and manga, Luffy can evade faster than Zoro.
Damn I'm on a roll today lol

Scientifically Zoro cannot evade lasers but in a fictional exaggerated world he surely did it, Luffy did it as well.
I am sure if you provided the link for that video I would be able to debunk those claims.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Scientifically Zoro cannot evade lasers but in a fictional exaggerated world he surely did it, Luffy did it as well.
I am sure if you provided the link for that video I would be able to debunk those claims.

You entire argue falls apart if you use real world physics @nik87 .

The problem with your arguements is that your fighting, not against me, but science and math lol.

I have scientifically broke down why your arguement makes no sense, and it shouldn't because we aren't in the real world.

I just dont think you understand that.

The video is trash, that's the point I'm making. Luffy cannot move 10 times the speed of light just like Zoro cant evade light speed.

I wish we could do a large poll to see where people stand on this. It would funny, no body seems to be jumping into our discussion lol. It's a good thing. Things get muddled when too many people are debating.

 

[nik87]

The video is trash, that's the point I'm making. Luffy cannot move 10 times the speed of light just like Zoro cant evade light speed.

I am not against this but I think speed hierarchy is doing ok. Have we seen cannonballs shot faster than lasers? Have we seen flying slashes shot faster than lasers? Whether lasers travel at light speed or not, whether Zoro evades at light speed or not, doesnt really matter. Nothing makes us think that lasers arent the thing that travels the fastest, even in OP fictional world. Zoro has dodged those. Exaggerated, no doubt but it is what it is.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I am not against this but I think speed hierarchy is doing ok. Have we seen cannonballs shot faster than lasers? Have we seen flying slashes shot faster than lasers? Whether lasers travel at light speed or not, whether Zoro evades at light speed or not, doesnt really matter. Nothing makes us think that lasers arent the thing that travels the fastest, even in OP fictional world. Zoro has dodged those. Exaggerated, no doubt but it is what it is.

Luffy was dodging lightening bolts pre-timeskip, pre gears, and pre haki. Against a logia with CoO

Not a single person with common sense exclaimed Luffy was the most evasive character in One Piece like you are saying about Zoro.


Because the arguement is ridiculous on its face.

 

[nik87]

Luffy was dodging lightening bolts pre-timeskip, pre gears, and pre haki. Against a logia with CoO

Not a single person with common sense exclaimed Luffy was the most evasive character in One Piece like you are saying about Zoro.

Just checked, that never happened. Luffy didnt dodge lightning speed attacks, they all hit him, easily, so that next sentence makes sense that nobody claimed evasive feats which didnt exist.
Besides, I said it's completely logical that Zoro is not the best at evading but if you look for best feats shown by manga, he is.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Luffy at 2 points both dodges/deflects lightening. Luffy is of course lightning resistance so he doesnt bother to in the final confrontation

Im on cell and cant show the panels, but it happens. You just aren't looking at the right panels.

But don't worry, light speed is faster than lightening speed, by quite a bit actually.

Zoro would still be the "better evader" in your opinion. I'm just clarifying that no one assumed Luffy was a speed god of the manga.

 

[jaymizzo]

No, dodging whatever a man made of mochi can do is not more impressive than dodging laser shot. Unless it was specifically confirmed that Katakuri's attacks travel at speed of light or anywhere close, they arent as fast as laser shots.
Also, Luffy didnt dodge anything after abdomen spear hit.

You have nothing to go off other than your own bias. When has Kumas attacks or Kizaurs attacks... Hell anyone in the manga ever been compared to moving at the speed of light? You also have nothing other than "incredibly fast" laser shots to go off. No context whatsoever as to how fast those are or whether or not Zoro knew something was coming. Hell, characters have shown to evade based on instinct (their body moving due to sense of danger).

Kuma leaving Zoro, who is almost dead, to take on all the pain and fatigue that Luffy sustained surely doesn't sound like he didnt mean to kill him and also confirmed that Zoro would die...

You clam on about manga facts yet you completely gloss over the fact that Kuma was undercover, he protected the SH ship and whisked them away to safety in Sabaody. He really wanted them dead.

I am basing my arguments on what was shown in the manga and that was the most impressive evasive feat shown so far among all Strawhats.

This is not going anywhere.

I dont know if one can be less biased if they base their arguments on proof from manga and logic of real-world physics...
Unless you want to tell that laser shots travel at the speed of slug, well, I would like to see that argument.

How are you basing your logic on real world physics? It doesn't apply to the manga. No human being is capable of slicing 20+ times within a few seconds. No human being is able to flex their muscles so hard that they can stop a blade from slicing their muscles due to muscle resistance. The idea of kicking air to fly as well... How are you ever going to convince anyone that real world physics have any ground in One Piece?

Can you prove to anyone that those laser shots were at the speed of light?

Deflecting air at light speed and the same air isnt traveling at light speed doesnt make sense either and is more connected to light speed than anything Katakuri showed.

Why is that?

Luffy dodged the same lasers and yet didnt dodge Katakuri's power mochi hits which are significantly slower. For the purpose of the story, such things happen. No need to question all the other instances for Zoro, Luffy or anyone else but if you want to find the best instances for evasive maneuvers, there you have it.

And one could argue that Katakuri's attacks were faster than those lasers.

Zoro is also a record holder for attack speed(frequency) if we take the panel as measurement since in manga there is no time.
1. Santoryu Yasha Garasu - 63 hits per panel
2. Yasakani no Magatama - 40 hits per panel
3. Gomu Gomu no Storm - ~26 hits per panel

Man, I agree with Lexus, we might aswell declare Zoro the WSS... With such extreme attack speed, I'm surprised Kyoushiro/Orochi are still alive.

 

[nik87]

Im on cell and cant show the panels, but it happens. You just aren't looking at the right panels.

Can you tell which chapter and perhaps page it is?

1-You have nothing to go off other than your own bias. When has Kumas attacks or Kizaurs attacks... Hell anyone in the manga ever been compared to moving at the speed of light? You also have nothing other than "incredibly fast" laser shots to go off. No context whatsoever as to how fast those are or whether or not Zoro knew something was coming. Hell, characters have shown to evade based on instinct (their body moving due to sense of danger).

2-You clam on about manga facts yet you completely gloss over the fact that Kuma was undercover, he protected the SH ship and whisked them away to safety in Sabaody. He really wanted them dead.

3-How are you basing your logic on real world physics? It doesn't apply to the manga. No human being is capable of slicing 20+ times within a few seconds. No human being is able to flex their muscles so hard that they can stop a blade from slicing their muscles due to muscle resistance. The idea of kicking air to fly as well... How are you ever going to convince anyone that real world physics have any ground in One Piece?

4-Can you prove to anyone that those laser shots were at the speed of light?

5-Why is that?

6-And one could argue that Katakuri's attacks were faster than those lasers.

7-Man, I agree with Lexus, we might aswell declare Zoro the WSS... With such extreme attack speed, I'm surprised Kyoushiro/Orochi are still alive.

1- Kuma himself says that he deflects air at light speed. There is no reason to assume those attacks are slow, if they were, Franky would dodge them too instead of not even noticing it. He deflects humans and monsters at speeds that no one among Strawhats on Sabaody noticed what even happened.
Kizaru is light himself, blitzing Marco and Whitebeard with his lasers during MF war. Afaik, Rayleigh mentions at some point during the explanation of CoO that when one is up against Kizaru the only hope is CoO.
It is not my own bias, it is information from the manga. I dont know what on you are basing laser and air pressure shots being slow or slower than anything else in the manga.

2- Kuma protecting them at Sabaody happened after TB. It surely didnt look like he wanted to spare Zoro in TB and acted surprised after he saw on TB that Zoro survived. His comment to Zoro is also information from the manga.

3- Yes, human abilities are exaggerated, never said they arent. What you listed are all things I never mentioned, what I was debating is the traveling speed hierarchy which surely does look to be based on real-life physics. Is Jozu's diamond soft as butter? No, the hardness is based on real life physics and represents the greatest hardness in OP universe unless specifically explained why something else exceeds it. Is Jozu's diamond easier to cut than steel? No... Just because someone can use Moonwalk doesnt mean they are not affected by gravity and wouldnt fall if they stopped using Moonwalk...

4- Can you prove that there is anything faster than those lasers?
5- Because Katakuri at no point in story was in the same sentence with light speed while lasers and air pad canons were.
6- If you want to argue that go ahead but you know you would be fighting a hopeless battle.
7- As I said, I pointed out the best feats shown in the manga. I never claimed that such evading speeds and attack frequency are something that Zoro or anyone else pulls off 24/7 nor does my logic tells me that Zoro is fastest at evading nor attack speed. However, based on the material from the manga, it is a completely different story.

Besides, I got the feeling that Zoro's feats are underestimated and downplayed. After all, it is a character who is on the path of becoming the strongest swordsman so being good isnt that surprising. Defending against 4 sword style with 3 swords means that he is faster, defending against 11 nails shot from point-blank range as a surprise attack means that he is fast. Dodging Kuma's air shots at near-dead state means he is fast at it.

 

[Fox666]

Enel and Kizaru undoubtably can move at impossible speeds.

However the same is obviously not true for the Pacifista beams, they are akin to a blaster in Star Wars.

 

[M3J]

I don't see Zoro being more agile/quick than Luffy.

Luffy's improved observation Haki should set him clearly apart now right?

Yeah, if he uses it. But yeah, hard to imagine Zoro being more agile than Luffy or that quick, unless it's to save someone. I dunno about Sanji, but Zoro most likely can't match Luffy's Gear 2 speed.

 

[Fox666]

Gear 2 allows Luffy to use Soru and use Gomu Gomu attacks with an explosive acceleration. But there have been plenty of opponents who have been able to match or overcome it, like Chinjao, Doflamingo, Cracker or Katakuri. It doesn't make him so special in the New World.

 

[M3J]

If at me, I'm talking about Luffy and Zoro, not Luffy and others. He's definitely not that impressive against Katakuri, and although he was able to outspeed Doflamingo many times, he apparently lacked power behind the attacks.

 

[Brandish μ]

Yeah, if he uses it.

Yea, I'm wondering how often he uses it in a serious bout. He didn't seem to against Kaido(?).

'Seeing the future' or whatever is something that'd be hyped up big for a villain, but in the hands of the MC it's a different story.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Yea, I'm wondering how often he uses it in a serious bout. He didn't seem to against Kaido(?).

'Seeing the future' or whatever is something that'd be hyped up big for a villain, but in the hands of the MC it's a different story.

Welcome to Shounen.

Although it's pretty clear FS won't work for Luffy when he was greatly pissed at Kaido and lost his cool, Oda made sure of this given Tama and everyone's state getting pummelled or pulverised by Kaido.
In that situation FS is non existent for Luffy.

Their fight needed to be concluded quick since it was done mostly to show the gap in power level and Kaido's superiority. FS will only drag things out unnecessary and make Luffy virtually untouchable while being unable to damage Kaido. That's meant for round 2 and not in their initial battle.
So it's understandable why Luffy couldn't use it both from story and Mangaka's POV.