Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[OtterBrigade]

What does writing have to do with success? People read mangas to be entertained and Bleach/Naruto did just that in spades and the sales reflect that. Are you really gonna tell me Bleach/Naruto wouldn't make it in todays era?

You still need good writing or you can't be entertained. The Death Note Netflix adaptation is a perfect example of that. The manga (and anime) has good writing and very entertaining while the Netflix adaptation does not and is boring

 

[TyVip]

You guys underestimate how massive one piece was.

Like who in their right mind give a newbie first series 300,000 copies first print? By the first year it amassed 6 million in print and by the 2nd year it had 17 million copies in print. By the time it received an anime at the end of 1999, it jumped to 37 million copies in print.

The only other series off the top of my head that received 300,000 first print was Assassination Classroom, and that was from a veteran.

 

[Rain Spectre]

You guys underestimate how massive one piece was.

Like who in their right mind give a newbie first series 300,000 copies first print? By the first year it amassed 6 million in print and by the 2nd year it had 17 million copies in print. By the time it received an anime at the end of 1999, it jumped to 37 million copies in print.

The only other series off the top of my head that received 300,000 first print was Assassination Classroom, and that was from a veteran.

Not to mention, in 2010, the series sold 30 MILLION COPIES in just a single year. Using OP as any kind of comparison is maddening, not when it is literally the biggest manga ever created by a very significant margin.

 

[SharkBait]

In the age of rising carbon emissions, deforestation, an overabundance of extracting fossil fuels, and the lack of interest in buying print volumes, to use first printing numbers as a requirement for being revolutionary, good, and earning the king of shonen genre moniker is shortsighted, foolish, and just outdated thinking.

Never has sales indicated that a work was good as many low selling/not well selling pieces of literature have found roaring success well after a writer's life has expired.

 

[Rain Spectre]

In the age of rising carbon emissions, deforestation, an overabundance of extracting fossil fuels, and the lack of interest in buying print volumes, to use first printing numbers as a requirement for being revolutionary, good, and earning the king of shonen genre moniker is shortsighted, foolish, and just outdated thinking.

Never has sales indicated that a work was good as many low selling/not well selling pieces of literature have found roaring success well after a writer's life has expired.

I swear, every single thing you say feels like it's being transmitted from another dimension.

 

[Tamil]

Not to mention, in 2010, the series sold 30 MILLION COPIES in just a single year. Using OP as any kind of comparison is maddening, not when it is literally the biggest manga ever created by a very significant margin.

Lol I remember the salt from Naruto fans back then when that happened.

OP sold more copies in a single year than what most series could only dream to do in their life time.

 

[savethecat]

The market and expectations for a Jump adventure/action manga are different now. However, expectations for an action/adventure Jump manga now is likely the way they are now BECAUSE of Naruto, One Piece, and even Bleach. So it’s hard to say whether or not they survive in the magazine today, when a good amount of the series in the magazine to wouldn’t be here without them.

 

[Rain Spectre]

The market and expectations for a Jump adventure/action manga are different now. However, expectations for an action/adventure Jump manga now is likely the way they are now BECAUSE of Naruto, One Piece, and even Bleach. So it’s hard to say whether or not they survive in the magazine today, when a good amount of the series in the magazine to wouldn’t be here without them.

It's a lot of shifts in the meta driving things, much of them caused by the Big 3. I go into more detail in this thread:

 

[Tarot]

Thank god you don't have a YouTube channel otherwise we'd have to deal with you trying to advertise that too.

 

[Mankichi Togawa]

This was the Big 3 in 2002. Yu-gi-oh was so huge that year in the entire planet. Also, based Prince of Tennis.

Bleach entered the Big-3 in 2004. 2003 was One Piece, Naruto, and Eyeshield21.

 

[Rain Spectre]

This was the Big 3 in 2002.

Bleach entered the Big-3 in 2004. 2003 was One Piece, Naruto, and Eyeshield21.

Your point?

 

[Mankichi Togawa]

Your point?

I wasn't even thinking in your post, the thread doesn't always revolve about what you want to talk. Just posted it because I wanted to show how BIG and important was Yu-gi-oh (and Prince of Tennis btw) in early 00s, being more important than Naruto.

 

[Tarot]

Saying big three or any of the old big series wouldn't work in the current era is groundless. All you need is to look at DBS, Boruto or Yu-gi-oh franchise as an example to see how they're still a juggernaut worldwide. Heck even HunterxHunter puts the newer series to shame whenever it releases a volume.

 

[Mankichi Togawa]

Guys, remember how I mentioned some days ago a Kurumada manga in Shonen Jump called Fuma no Kojiro selling more than Kinnikuman, Dr.Slump or Captain Tsubasa in early 80s?


W-welp. Also, not surprised. Kurumada already resurrected Ring ni Kakero with Ring ni Kakero 2 in early 00s, and then Saint Seiya with Next Dimension in Akita Shonen (which he has left in the very middle)

 

[Rain Spectre]

Saying big three or any of the old big series wouldn't work in the current era is groundless. All you need is to look at DBS, Boruto or Yu-gi-oh franchise as an example to see how they're still a juggernaut worldwide. Heck even HunterxHunter puts the newer series to shame whenever it releases a volume.

Boruto sales have been dropping with literally every volume.

Dragon Ball Super is purely made of marketing.

YGO as a franchise has gotten so far from Takahashi's original manga that the comparison is virtually meaningless.

This whole comment is puzzling given that the whole reason those series succeed is because they are tied to previous hit properties. Imagine, for a second, that they were original media with no connection to beloved franchises. Would they succeed? Because I'm willing to wager no.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 19, 2019 ---

Guys, remember how I mentioned some days ago a Kurumada manga in Shonen Jump called Fuma no Kojiro selling more than Kinnikuman, Dr.Slump or Captain Tsubasa in early 80s?


W-welp. Also, not surprised. Kurumada already resurrected Ring ni Kakero with Ring ni Kakero 2 in early 00s, and then Saint Seiya with Next Dimension in Akita Shonen (which he has left in the very middle)

Kuramada has evidently realized that he has no means of topping his own legacy, so he's instead dedicated the rest of his life to making sequals to his own stuff.

 

[westabyss]

I have two major criticisms at newer Shonen battle manga which i wanted to adress.

My problem with the new guard of Shonen manga (BNHA, BC etc.) is that they are just filling out a template that has been used years ago without any innovation. What i always found interesting throughout the years of Shonen and its history is that it always kept evolving. Hokuto no Ken was influeced by Otoko Ippiki and other Manga running in that age, Dragonball was influenced by Hokuto No Ken, Saint Seiya and other manga and took the Action Shonen genre to a new level. Then came One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, HxH, Reborn etc. and used the template Dragonball had but expanded it with either better world building, richer characters, better power scaling, more complex stories or other elements. Now we have the new generation with BnHA, Black Clover and other battle manga running right now and they are just using the template Naruto and other Shonen in the early 2000s formed without innovating it or expanding it in newer directions.

My second problem is that newer manga artist are usually just influenced by other manga and there are not many other sources of inspiration which is different to other eras. Like with Hokuto no Ken f.e you can see that they were influenced by Hollywood movies like Mad Max etc. Dragonball is as everyone knows an adaption of Journey to the West but spins it into a gag series. City Hunter, Cats Eye also clearly influenced by Hollywood. Araki uses music as inspiration for Jojo and there are countless other examples like that. I find it more interesting if you take sources outside your own sphere and bring it back into yours but spin it into something fresh. Shonen manga feels kinda incestious in that regard at the moment.

I had more to say on that second point actually but i have to catch my class. Hopefully it made my point clear though.

 

[Tarot]

Boruto sales have been dropping with literally every volume.

Dragon Ball Super is purely made of marketing.

YGO as a franchise has gotten so far from Takahashi's original manga that the comparison is virtually meaningless.

I said "franchise". Boruto is a multimedia project and ignoring the other parts like anime, video games and merchandise while solely focusing on the manga sales is a mistake.

What do you mean DBS is purely made of marketing?

Have you read Yu-gi-oh?

This whole comment is puzzling given that the whole reason those series succeed is because they are tied to previous hit properties. Imagine, for a second, that they were original media with no connection to beloved franchises. Would they succeed?

Do you realize the same previous old hits that aren't tied to anything still find a lot of success with the new audience in the current era?

 

[Rain Spectre]

I have two major criticisms at newer Shonen battle manga which i wanted to adress.

My problem with the new guard of Shonen manga (BNHA, BC etc.) is that they are just filling out a template that has been used years ago without any innovation. What i always found interesting throughout the years of Shonen and its history is that it always kept evolving. Hokuto no Ken was influeced by Otoko Ippiki and other Manga running in that age, Dragonball was influenced by Hokuto No Ken, Saint Seiya and other manga and took the Action Shonen genre to a new level. Then came One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, HxH, Reborn etc. and used the template Dragonball had but expanded it with either better world building, richer characters, better power scaling, more complex stories or other elements. Now we have the new generation with BnHA, Black Clover and other battle manga running right now and they are just using the template Naruto and other Shonen in the early 2000s formed without innovating it or expanding it in newer directions.

My second problem is that newer manga artist are usually just influenced by other manga and there are not many other sources of inspiration which is different to other eras. Like with Hokuto no Ken f.e you can see that they were influenced by Hollywood movies like Mad Max etc. Dragonball is as everyone knows an adaption of Journey to the West but spins it into a gag series. City Hunter, Cats Eye also clearly influenced by Hollywood. Araki uses music as inspiration for Jojo and there are countless other examples like that. I find it more interesting if you take sources outside your own sphere and bring it back into yours but spin it into something fresh. Shonen manga feels kinda incestious in that regard at the moment.

I had more to say on that second point actually but i have to catch my class. Hopefully it made my point clear though.

...Because they don't really need to be innovated? Much of the ideas that battle manga are built around have more or less been finalised by 2010 or so. Now it's just finding new ways to express them. I really don't see what's wrong exactly. It's not exactly a "new" point either, even Nakano has said as much.

Also, I notice that you only mention series from the 80s in the latter paragraph. That kinda proves how meaningless it is, because the 90s already were built on the prior series, showing the point has been moot for decades.

I said "franchise". Boruto is a multimedia project and ignoring the other parts like anime, video games and merchandise while solely focusing on the manga sales is a mistake.

What do you mean DBS is purely made of marketing?

Have you read Yu-gi-oh?

Do you realize the same previous old hits that aren't tied to anything still find a lot of success with the new audience in the current era?

Plot twist, new manga aren't franchises. This is comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Tarot]

Plot twist, new manga aren't franchises. This is comparing apples and oranges.

Boruto manga covers the Boruto film which aired before the serialization happened. The TV anime covers the events before the movie. Then there's the light novel which fills in some gap for the TV anime. That's why I said it's a multimedia series and why your argument is flawed.

Edit: also good job ignoring the rest of my post. That makes it easier for me not to take you seriously anymore like Sharkbait or ChocoBar9.

 

[Halloween]

Dragon Ball is more popular now then ever before. The latest movie is the highest grossing DB movie to date. It was literally in the top 5 domestic movie weekend in the US, which literally no anime movie has ever accomplished before, AS A LIMITED RELEASE. There was literally crowds of thousands in the streets that watched the final Super episodes in South America.

No, Dragon Ball Super isn't just marketing. That's the most stupidly reductive argument I think I've ever heard. It's been 20+ years since the manga concluded, and it's only gained popularity since.