Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Rain Spectre]

I think one thing I notice is that the veterans here get more attached to series that tend to be canceled, and I wonder if that isn't because said series are written in a way closer to their "preference", over what the modern titles are generally like. All the people complaining about "edgy" titles, or wanting more comedies. I don't really see that among more recent fans, but I do see a fair bit of it among the vets.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

Thanks for at least not trying to devolve the thread into yelling.

Honestly, it feels weird how much of a generation gap there is between me and most of the people here. All these veterans have such different preferences...

Time forms tastes. Like most of us who’ve been here a while have read broadly and that’s informed a lot of what we like. Though I don’t think any two are the same

 

[LuckyJim]

I think one thing I notice is that the veterans here get more attached to series that tend to be canceled, and I wonder if that isn't because said series are written in a way closer to their "preference", over what the modern titles are generally like.

I think you're making a false assumption, most of the series published in Jump get cancelled, so people who regularly follow Jump and the new series that come from it might find some new series that they get attached to, there's a good chance that those series will get cancelled regardless of their preference. Correlation doesn't equal causation, there are a lot of factors to keep in mind.

 

[Mankichi Togawa]

It's also that Sakigake Otokojuku has aged the absolute worst of any battle manga in Jump's canon, being filled with uncomfortable misogyny and a lots of nonsensical storytelling.

Fist of the North Star meanwhile I don't really think is losing notoriety? We got that game from the Yakuza team just a year ago.

JoJo is a lot of times the same. And I've never found Sakigake uncomfortable.

 

[CuriousReborn]

I think one thing I notice is that the veterans here get more attached to series that tend to be canceled, and I wonder if that isn't because said series are written in a way closer to their "preference", over what the modern titles are generally like.

I dont get your point, I have been here since 2010 and never got "attached" to series that tend to be canceled and many others are the same. We may be a bit disappointed that something ended but it is definitely not because of "attachment". Some might like the setting or designs but that doesnt make us attached to it.

 

[Halloween]

Personally, I make it a point not to grow attached to a series until I'm certain it'll survive. Hell, sometimes I won't even start reading a new series until the first set of rankings.

I am attached to Chainsawman now, though.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

I think one thing I notice is that the veterans here get more attached to series that tend to be canceled, and I wonder if that isn't because said series are written in a way closer to their "preference", over what the modern titles are generally like. All the people complaining about "edgy" titles, or wanting more comedies. I don't really see that among more recent fans, but I do see a fair bit of it among the vets.

Ehhhhhhh kind of but not really. Like there’s a lot of cancelled titles I like, LOVE even (hello Hoop Men, hello Shinmai Fukei Killco-san) but I think that’s just because Jump cancels things endlessly. You’ll have some soon enough i’m sure haha

 

[Rain Spectre]

Actually, I think I figured out the conflict a bit better. It's really down to the meta of the series involved.

Veteran Jump fans from the 2000s are people who came to Jump for these really distinctive, original stories that feel "fresh" to them. Even if the writing wasn't perfect for many of them, they have an emotional attachment which transcends everything.

Modern Jump fans (those who joined from 2014 or so) come to Jump for high-quality stories which they form bonds with, in spite of them being less original or innovative. Consequently, a lot of them see older series as outdated for their slower pace or uneven writing.

That's the short version of how I see it.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

Actually, I think I figured out the conflict a bit better. It's really down to the meta of the series involved.

Veteran Jump fans from the 2000s are people who came to Jump for these really distinctive, original stories that feel "fresh" to them. Even if the writing wasn't perfect for many of them, they have an emotional attachment which transcends everything.

Modern Jump fans (those who joined from 2014 or so) come to Jump for high-quality stories which they form bonds with, in spite of them being less original or innovative. Consequently, a lot of them see older series as outdated for their slower pace or uneven writing.

That's the short version of how I see it.

You keep saying meta and I really don’t think it’s the right word. It’s a publishing environment, not a game.

That and your take boils down to “the stuff before I was reading is less good than what I’ve read, which uh hello is literally how each generation perceives changing media. S’not deep.

Especially as “high-quality stories” is an attempt to paint your subjective taste as some sorta fact dude, c’mon

 

[LuckyJim]

Actually, I think I figured out the conflict a bit better. It's really down to the meta of the series involved.

Veteran Jump fans from the 2000s are people who came to Jump for these really distinctive, original stories that feel "fresh" to them. Even if the writing wasn't perfect for many of them, they have an emotional attachment which transcends everything.

Modern Jump fans (those who joined from 2014 or so) come to Jump for high-quality stories which they form bonds with, in spite of them being less original or innovative. Consequently, a lot of them see older series as outdated for their slower pace or uneven writing.

That's the short version of how I see it.

I think you're just looking for patterns that aren't really there and making assumptions in order to fit those patterns.

 

[Rain Spectre]

You keep saying meta and I really don’t think it’s the right word. It’s a publishing environment, not a game.

That and your take boils down to “the stuff before I was reading is less good than what I’ve read, which uh hello is literally how each generation perceives changing media. S’not deep.

Especially as “high-quality stories” is an attempt to paint your subjective taste as some sorta fact dude, c’mon

"Meta" at it's route just means internal mechanics and the environment they create. I feel it's fair to use it.

Not disagreeing, I guess. But I feel like it explains much of the conflict of opinion.

I wasn't referring to it as an objective fact per say? Merely stating that's what I and I suspect most of the more recent readers go to Jump for.

A lot of my viewpoint is inspired off a memorably baffling discussion I had with a person who started rambling about how Jump was losing its identity and becoming a copy of other magazines. It was a seriously head-tilting conversation at the time, but I feel like it left an impression on me.

Actually, that raises a valid question; Does anyone here think Jump is losing its identity? I don't, but I'm curious what others have to say.

 

[Halloween]

Rain, can you explain how newer series that are "less innovative and original" are inherently higher quality than older series that are more innovative and original?

You're not explaining this point very well.

 

[Rain Spectre]

Rain, can you explain how newer series that are "less innovative and original" are inherently higher quality than older series that are more innovative and original?

You're not explaining this point very well.

Because creators better understand the mistakes of their predecessors and are able to work ideas better and experiment with mixing them. Toriyama said as much regarding the point of "Higher quality but lower innovation", and I think I'm willing to side with him there.

 

[Halloween]

Because creators better understand the mistakes of their predecessors and are able to work ideas better and experiment with mixing them. Toriyama said as much regarding the point of "Higher quality but lower innovation", and I think I'm willing to side with him there.

If that was true, and newer series are less prone to mistakes, how do you explain the vast majority of new series being cancelled early?

Because, early cancellation indicates that they made mistakes, which goes against your premise.

 

[savethecat]

Dr.Stone’s art looks pretty

 

[Halloween]

Dr.Stone’s art looks pretty

Indeed. Also, the latest chapter was fucking hilarious.

 

[Rain Spectre]

If that was true, and newer series are less prone to mistakes, how do you explain the vast majority of new series being cancelled early?

Because, early cancellation indicates that they made mistakes, which goes against your premise.

Because some creators make more mistakes than others. Or, in the case of veterans trying to create a second hit, they can't break free of their habits of yesterday.

Modern Jump works on Survival of the Fittest, is what I'm saying.

 

[Halloween]

Or, in the case of veterans trying to create a second hit, they can't break free of their habits of yesterday.

Care to give a specific example? Because it sounds like you're making a blanket generalization for all veterans.


Anyway, as an aside, I saw this and thought I'd share with everyone.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

Because creators better understand the mistakes of their predecessors and are able to work ideas better and experiment with mixing them. Toriyama said as much regarding the point of "Higher quality but lower innovation", and I think I'm willing to side with him there.

To test this a bit, what makes the writing of, say, The Promised Neverland better than Death Note? My Hero Academia over Naruto? Dr. Stone over Neuro? And how do we account for (in this world of purely iterative gain) for work like Chainsaw Man, which builds more off of western and european comics than it does Jump, and even in Japan feels more like an indie comic in how it experiments with the form?

 

[Rain Spectre]

Care to give a specific example? Because it sounds like you're making a blanket generalization for all veterans.


Anyway, as an aside, I saw this and thought I'd share with everyone.

Kishimoto's writing on Samurai 8 feels very old-timey in its pacing. Ryuuhei Tamura tried to replicate the same structure of Beelzebub with Hungry Marie in spite of it being much harder work with in an environment where readers have shorter attention spans. Fujimaki tried doing a hit on the level of Kuroko with Robot even though Haikyuu had firmly reintroduced "spirit" (don't ask, it's complicated) as vital to sports manga. List goes on.