Discussion Kallavan vs Jinsung Battle Discussion

[Jammin]

This thread is for the discussion of the battle between Kallavan and Jinsung.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Oh come on now.....she never identified Ja Wangnan as the "prince" of Zahard, or am i forgetting something? She did say that she was waiting for the prince of Zahard. Who that was is, at this point at least, speculation & interpretation. For you as well as for me.




After he got stabbed by Maschenny, he bound two top 100 high Rankers, even if it was only for a short time. That was his last bullet. So it's hard to say what he might have done if Maschenny hadn't interfered.




It's really hard to say. The "current" Jinsung seems to like Bam and all, but remember why he changed his mind about FUG being wrong in the matter with Bam. It was because he showed his "you hit me and i learn it" ability. Then he remembered promising his dying girlfriend to never forget. Then he told him that he would make him into a god.
So i think it's selfish BUT he also seemed to develop father/son feelings towards Bam (like the relationship between Karaka & Jinsung, at least for Karaka) during their time as master & student.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 16, 2019 ---

The strength also comes from toys. Like the "anti high ranker weapon" that Jinsung damaged. This weapons are handled by minions.
Or look at someone like Hwa Ryun. She is weak in terms of fighting power, she might not even be a regular right now (not sure though), but she is a huge asset to every force, because she has her own abilites. Like seeing the future & going wherever she wants.
Even regarding fighting power, you also need people that aren't as strong as you. Let's say you fight someone of your level. You are ranked 200, the other one is ranked 201. You have got no minions at all, he has got three. One is 400, the other one 500 and the last one 550. Who do you think has got (normally) the advantage?
If you had your own minions, you could prevent this kind of situation.

y u no agree all day? lol



See that thread I made on this specifically. Rep made it pretty clear that she was waiting on the prince OF ZAHARD (it even showed his 3-eyed seal). Not all these would-be prince exercises people have in their head-canon. Not 'prince of FUG' or 'prince of V' or any other 'prince' people want to pigeonhole Baam into. I'm OK with Baam being a prince 'of sorts' and even open to the dual meaning of 'prince' in the eponymous season title in question. But Rep was specifically alluding to Ja there, at that moment in time.

The question isn't whether Ja is a prince it's if Baam is the prince AS WELL. It's undeniable that Ja has Zahard blood and by the 'princess' standard is a prince of Zahard whether recognized 'officially' (by the corrupt, propangandized, statist Zahard empire) or not.

Also, SIU explicitly calls those with rings 'princes' in his blog, and that's linked in my thread. So Ja IS a prince. Of Zahard. Whether Baam also is or isn't is debatable.

Now, if Baam ends up being the son of Z not V that's a pretty heavy revision/retcon, and we should basically question everything about the story entirely as nothing is sacred.



LOL, man, 'come on' as you say. He didn't 'bind' them.... he tried to slow Kallavan from missing his exit on the teleporter (effect was very temporary). That wasn't a 'move' than had any lasting or physical effects - hell, it wasn't an attack. It was a last-ditched, remarkable feat, but it's like the dying man taking one last swing at you - admirable yet useless (and as we saw it served no function). Jinsung had pointedly said he couldn't hold back against Kallavan after his lost his cig (you know that means business) and there's no reason to think he withheld a stronger attack. Kallavan was able to EASILY tank his big attack, catch Jinsung quicker than Jinsung could withdraw, AND breach his ancient, famously-strong Ha body with nothing more than grip strength. Jinsung couldn't withdraw, slip away, or overcome the crushing force from someone who seemed to only get stronger after having his guts blown out his back. And once his arms are sealed/lost, as evidenced by the contraption he's held in, he's effectively neutered in battle.

Jinsung had lost. He's one of my fav characters but there's no point pretending he was in a position to win against Kallavan alone. Mas simply KO'd him to use him later before Kallavan could have crushed in his skull. Kallavan continued with a much larger hole to go and fight the likes of Evankhell and have the gas to chase after Baam in the aftermath. Jinsung with a much smaller, off-center hole just collapsed completely.



Well, I'm obviously talking about 'current' Jinsung after Baam has already won him over, not when he first met him. Jinsung pretty much dances to Luslec's tune (and warns those that don't) with some degree of discretion, but it's pretty clear Jinsung is a yes-man when it comes to Luslec's wishes. And it has been specifically shown not even all of FUG really knows who Baam truly is. Jinsung himself didn't seem to fully comprehend it at first. But, he's come around and has informed Baam he must reform FUG. He didn't say leave FUG. Or do what you want (that was Urek). He still sees Baam as a means to an end, but he has warmed to him as an individual while doing so.

I think SIU let the end of that fight be a little ambiguous. I mean, Kallavan survived Jisung attack and took his arms... he did beat Jinsung.
But Jinsung wasn't completely beat until Maschenny intefered.. I don't know if he still had anything that could stop Kallavan, he was screamming that he would stop Kallavan (what could be his last struggle).
We also know that after being pierced by Maschenny he fast skiped both of them without his arms.

So would Jinsung be able to come up with something at that point that could stop Kallavan? I don't know... but given that Kallavan survived his chest hole, the ship explosion and still broke trough Karaka/Yuri/Evankhell to get Baam, my guess is that Jinsung wouldn't be able to do something strongh enough.... but it still a little ambiguous, IMO

There definitely is some nuance regarding the fight's outcome. I'd argue that in general kallavan was the stronger fighter. We saw the state jinsung was in before he used his ultimate technique. For jinsung the extreme floral butterfly was basically a last ditch hail mary which paid off... But that was the only thing he held over kallavan during the fight.

You mean the same three eyed seal that's decorating one of Bam's cave walls, yes?
I know the thread, i know your opinion. I don't even argue if Wangnan is some sort of prince or not. I say that Repellista NEVER confirmed the identity of the prince she was waiting for. You are pretty sure that it is Wangnan and that's fine. I believe otherwise, that's fine as well. But it is not confirmed. That was my only issue.




Ok, let's try it this way. Jinsung makes a hole in his stomach, Kallavan counters and cripples his arms. Then Jinsung yells at him and is about to go nuts - we don't see what might have happened. Why? Because Siu intended it to be that way. There was no need for Maschenny to interfere. He led her interfere because this way, it's not clear who is stronger or weaker. It was an intense fight and at the end, both had serious wounds. Jinsung stopping both of them AFTER the stab WITHOUThis arms is also a way of Siu showing us that he wasn't completely done.

It served a purpose. This way, only Kallavan was able to go to the train. If he hadn't done that, Kallavan would have come with the rest of his crew and probably Maschenny. That's game over for team Bam.




I pretty much agree on this part.

Firstly

Kallavan mentioned that he would be a goner if Jinsung would do a follow up following his ultimate

Meaning?

An ultimate followed by an attack is what it took for Jinsung to send Kallavan to an early grave, is that clear to everyone?

Secondly

A crippled and gravely wounded Jinsung abled to unremovable bound both top 100 HR, a bound that Kallavan unable to remove

What does it say?

Agreed with @Wha , Siu could make Jinsung relevant in terms of power later in the story by just making Jinsung goes havoc like how he did it the past

Or he could offed Jinsung, to provide an ultimatum for both Karaka and Baam

But.... jinsung didn't follow up... Either because he couldn't for whatever reason or because he didn't think it was necessary. Both are kinda in kallavan's favor in this case. And it doesn't change the fact that jinsung got ragdolled through the entirety of the fight up until his final hail mary which he fucked up with no help whatsoever. This would be like if I went up against an MMA fighter.... I get ragdolled for 80% of the fight.. Which amounts to like 4 seconds... And in the final second I pull out a knife, cause an injury but not one severe enough to win the fight. Does me having the knife and in some alternative universe not having fucked up mean I am the stronger fighter? Of course not. Kallavan is by all intents and purposes the stronger fighter. Jinsung just had one technique in his arsenal which could have won him the battle but ultimately screwed up.

Jinsung's power seems pretty relevant in general, I am not sure of why he'd need newfound relevance. He'd get wrecked by family heads of course and there are likely people in the rankings that could have a comfortable victory over him but he is still a major force in the tower.

Here is a fact that is undeniable:

Jinsung has a MUCH smaller-sized hole, equally pierced through (with a cleaner shot I might add), than Jinsung.

- Jinsung collapses due to smaller hole - seconds after being hit.
- Kallavan tanks the much larger damage and yet rages on and even goes toe-to-toe with Evankhell, rank 60, after wrecking Jinsung's biggest threats with a mere squeeze of his fists and a faster grasp.

REVERSE the roles: Kallavan has shown with a larger, messier hole that he's capable of tanking what Jinsung took from Maschenny (also, Maschenny's attack is logically less powerful than Jinsung's attack since she knew how hard it would be to pierce him) and not only surviving but continuing the fight. Even if his arms were crushed (as that is not a lethal attack in the slightest, moreover to someone that can withstand missing his entire GI-tract) prior.

That should tell you pretty much all you need to know. And what @kkck and I said earlier. Would have could have isn't an argument really.

Also, if Jinsung's flesh were harder than Kallavan's he could have withstood the pressure of the grip on his arms. Jinsung had to power up a high level (if not his highest; logic says it was his trump card) shinsoo attack to break through Kallavan. Kallavan only had to use his grip strength - arguably weaker than other attacks as your hands/forearms aren't exactly powerhouse muscle groups. Kallavan was the aggressor that was knocking Jinsung around forcing the later to use a trump card. It didn't work. If Jinsung withheld a followup blow then he is INCOMPETENT (and I don't think anyone thinks that's the case). More logical is he simply didn't have another round in him - look at how much effort was in the 'power up' to Jinsung's big attack so to speak. He more than likely couldn't spam a bunch of those attacks back-to-back - and that is what Kallavan states would have been required to end him.

Kallavan showed NO SIGNS of fatigue or stopping at any point. Considering the scale of the battle he went on to have if anyone was withholding it would have been Kallavan.

Oh, and Mas didn't arrive to induce doubt as to how the fight could have played out from a literary sense. She arrived to PRESERVE Jinsung. Left to the devices of Kallavan Jinsung would have continued ripping Jinsung apart (until he died or passed out, probably the first option in a direct confrontation with Baam on the line). We know that Mas had an incentive to preserve Jinsung's life (for bait) while Kallavan did not. Kallavan merely needed him out of commission dead or alive, and Mas arrived to conveniently produced the later effect. Notice Kallavan didn't go crush his skull, his goal is Baam. And Mas got her prey. Hell, Kallavan deferred to her wishes. It's like in the movies when some hero is getting their ass handed to them by bad-guy #1 when bad-guy #2 comes up behind and strikes the hero on the back of the head with the butt of a rifle or something equally blunt. It doesn't mean that the hero getting his ass kicked would have magically got a second or third wind and defeated the guy presently kicking his ass absent the surprise KO blow.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 18, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 18, 2019 ---

So Jinsung withheld and thought screaming after not avoiding a blow that's fatal to his attacks was the best counter-measure when the guy that crushed his famously-strong flesh, again with mere grip strength alone, continued a death-hold on him?



Ah, so you know the thread... that makes it easier. Then you know the blog I quoted where SIU refers to WANGNAN as a prince in the PROLOGUE. The prologue is called 'the episode of the prince of Zahard'.

So, SIU confirms that the prince in the prologue is Wangnan, and that in that very prologue he's described as Z's prince.

That is the same prologue that gave us the title to S2... 'return of the prince'.

Put that all together: SIU confirms Ja is the prince in the prologue, the prologue confirms the prince is both a) returning and b) a prince of Zahard, and meanwhile Rep is getting excited about the same return of the prince of Zahard.

But it's somehow Baam? That's a very big leap considering allll the evidence.

No, Rep doesn't CONFIRM who it is - the story and SIU's blog together do that.

Not to mention 'Rep' is already familiar with 'the irregular' that Yuri is looking for. She KNOWS he's already entered the tower. There is no longer a 'return' either figurative or literal, for Baam once one is familiar with him entering the tower. Whether she's feigning the thought that she thinks he's dead or not to Yuri doesn't matter:

a) Rep thinks Baam is truly dead - then she can't be excited about the knowledge of a prince of Zahard returning if she thinks said prince is truly dead.

OR

b) Rep knows Baam is alive after all - then he DOESN'T RETURN by her perspective - he's already been active and if she knew he was alive she'd know that too.



EITHER WAY from her perspective Baam isn't 'returning' - and there's zero reason to think he's Zahard's prince while there's mountains of evidence that Ja IS Zahard's prince.

That's an interesting interpretation. So what hindered Siu to make it clear? Kallavan defeats Jinsung, Jinsung loses conciousness, kallavan wants to deliver the final blow and Maschenny steps in to save him. They could also have a talk that makes it clear that Maschenny "betrayed" Jinsung. But that is not what has happened. Jinsung looked like a wounded beast that you pushed into a corner - that's a very dangerous kind of situation.
And taking his arms is serious,yes. But imagine taking Yuri's arms. She still could use something like the rose shower. That Jinsung could still play tricks was shown as well (reverse flow control).
You don't believe Jinsung to be able to follow up, Jinsung didn't believe that kallavan could do that after his transcendent skill. He was wrong. Maybe you are as well, maybe i am. We don't know, because the situation is not clear, because that's what Siu wanted.


i have moved the other reply to your thread, let's continue there.

ya’ll realized that SIU mentioned in his blog if Maschenny didn’t appear, the fight between Kallavan and Jinsung could have gone either way, right?

plus with SIu mentioning how Kallavan was younger (add in the fact that we know Jinsung said he grows stronger with age, not weaker) SIU could maybe been leaning towards Jinsung.

also another plus, Jinsung was able to freeze Kallavan and Maschenny at the same time, he has it in him to deal another fatal attack to Kallavan.

in straight up physical stats, Kallavan is undoubtably stronger than Jinsung but Jinsung’s techniques more than bridges that difference. You can say Kallavan was beating the life out of Jinsung in the first half, but the fight could also gone differently if Jinsung freeze Kallavan first instead of fighting him physically where he obviously isn’t Kallavan’s match in that field while he could also mercilessly throw attacks at him one after another once he froze him. In this fight specifically, Jinsung kinda looked down upon the younger Kallavan and paid for it. In a rematch, Jinsung is obviously not going to take his attacks head on so easily.

also, to ya saying how Kallavan could kept going after a supposed fatal attack, it his attribute. The dude is a literal crystal so fatal dmg to a normal being with fresh and blood wouldn’t apply to him.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 18, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 18, 2019 ---

from SIU’s blog post.

It is undeniable what SIU wanted was Mas to take Jinsung ALIVE as bait rather than allow him to be killed. Her motives are quite clear; I'm not sure how you think that's open to interpretation on my end. The importance of her arrival was primarily to preserve Jinsung for the overall story. If there's a secondary reason - supposedly to muddy the water over who would have won - then SIU as an author waited a bit too long if he wanted to show how the battered, tired, broken, neutered Jinsung was on equal grounds with Kallavan.



Again, if Jinsung screaming instead of countering was thought by him to be his best option when he JUST saw how an ultimate level attack wasn't enough in of itself and the person he's fighting has the ability to literally crush the life out of him then perhaps everyone is overestimating Jinsung's fighting prowess and abilities. It's not like Jinsung didn't know he had to stop Kallavan. He didn't free himself from Kallavan's grip. He didn't counter his damage by damaging Kallavan. All he had left in him was to scream. The danger was already at a fever pitch by both parties. It had nowhere further to escalate. Jinsung was fighting with what he thought was a fatal attack. Kallavan knew he had to neuter Jinsung just in case. Both had already telegraphed their intentions before Jinsung starting screaming because that's all that was left to do. If someone had a gun to my head I could scream too but that doesn't mean by merely screaming I have the ability to stop my execution. It would be different if he was able to push loose and damage Kallavan and THEN start screaming. But he screamed while his useless arms were STILL held by his opponent.

Jinsung had ALREADY been pushed into a corner. When the cig was knocked from his mouth he knew he had to pull out all the stops to stop Kallavan and he SAYS this. He uses what he thought would be a high-tier fatal attack. Jinsung was not withholding.



Here you are conflating 'being able to attack to the fullest' with 'losing your arms' function not being anywhere near fatal'. I didn't say it wasn't important from an attack standpoint. I said it really didn't matter that Jinsung had broken arms as that wasn't what did him in. It was Mas' spear attack to his torso. And Kallavan PROVED he was able to go on and use high-level attacks and defense after a more-damaging gut punch-out. Jinsung couldn't continue with attacks or defense after a less-damaging torso attack. So while he was able to throw a last-ditched (ultimately useless) move out there that doesn't mean he was qualified to give Kallavan another fatal blow. While not an absolute impossibility, it is a bit of a stretch.

Broken arms wasn't what did him in as a fighter. It was having the shit kicked out of him and then taking a spear to the gut. Punches and blows and assaults that Kallavan shows he could have tanked (he tanked actually worse) and kept on fighting. Alternatively, Jinsung could not continue.




The panel(s) actually is(are) pretty clear. Here's the context:

- Jinsung was bleeding all over - including out of his mouth (Kallavan was not) - not a great sign if you think all things are relatively equal lol. Oh, well I will concede Jinsung was able to break Kallavan's nose. Which had zero effect on him lol. *sign of disproportionate abilities*
- Jinsung was huffing and puffing prior to pulling out all the stops and specifically after his transcendent attack (Kallavan was not) - please see the panels. Kallavan never showed signs of exhaustion (even after big bomber or atomic attack transcendent skills and then going on to fight others) and Jinsung had been showing them for several panels so far. *sign of disproportionate abilities*
- Jinsung's right arm was "a complete mess" and just dangling there from merely taking strikes (Kallavan was just fine) - his arm(s) BEFORE being 'taken' were already approaching their limits by Jinsung's own admission. *sign of disproportionate abilities*
- Jinsung spent an inordinate amount of energy, already being visibly winded, to deliver a blow that he THOUGHT would be sufficient and fatal. *sign of disproportionate gauging of abilities*

With that context in mind (none of which I believe you could argue against as it is all explicitly shown) Kallavan was able to immediately tank an attack that would be fatal to most anyone, probably even Jinsung himself, and overpower Jinsung in raw strength point-blank (not to mention Jinsung didn't have enough energy or speed to avoid being clasped as a 'superior tactician'). Jinsung didn't have much left to give and was in poor fighting shape, and that's before Jinsung's arms being attacked - but certainly afterwards. That is why he even had a momentary thought of teaching Baam an ultimate attack. Jinsung waxes about the importance of the attack because he thinks when pushed to the limits where he ADMITS he has to do everything he can to stop Jinsung that the attack is sufficient. If he held back then that doesn't fit the narrative. If he held back then he's not the best judge of strength and a so-called 'superior martial artist' without situational awareness is a bit oxymoronic.

It's impossible for me to say he absolute had no way of attacking further, but the fact is he quite simply didn't. And he WAS very visibly winded, and very visibly and effectively injured (unlike Kallavan - the scope of Kallavan's injuries didn't matter as it had no effect on him). Too winded and too injured and too slow and too weak (and too surprised) to avoid or stop Kallavan's next attack. So much for being a "tactician" in that regards. Base Jinsung was simply outclassed by Kallavan and balls-out Jinsung was outclassed by Kallavan as well. There was literally no sign that Jinsung was capable of countering simple attacks and the only card he had would be IF he could multi-spam his trump attack (and that's a big if considering). Which he either didn't and/or couldn't. We know he didn't, and I suspect he didn't because he couldn't. Why? Because the context of the entire fight and the condition he was in. None of which is unimportant, but seems to be glossed over.

SIU did not make it unclear who was in superior control in that fight. He did not make it unclear who was sustaining more effectual damage. He did not make it unclear who ended up more winded. He did not make it unclear who was or wasn't able to continue fighting after taking a blow to the same spot on the torso. He did not make it unclear who had the harder flesh.

The only thing that was unclear is IF Jinsung had enough gas in him for another high-level attack and IF he could even land one or perform one in the shape he was in. And to reiterate the shape he was in - pretty damn bad. (prior to Mas showing up). Because it was CLEAR all but the strongest attacks wouldn't stop Kallavan. And it was CLEAR that Kallavan DID posses the strength and power and defense to continue to wreck Jinsung. Jinsung is questionable, Kallavan is a given.

And in the totality of the context of the performance of each individual and the condition they were in (factoring in damage that had any effect, tiredness, speed of assault, use of appendages, etc - all 'wins' on Kallavan's score card) I personally think it extremely unlikely that Jinsung could have pulled it out all things considered. I'll stop short of saying it's an impossibility, because you are right we don't know.

But what isn't up to debate is that Kallavan had superior defense and ability to take damage. BOTH took hits to their abdomen. On Jinsung you have almost the same location with what can only either be a pin-hole sized hole or no hole at all (lightning damage without a hole at all) - it's difficult to tell. When Mas approached a down Jinsung he had no gaping wound like Kallavan did. Either way, Kallavan undoubtedly took more damage to the equally vital area. And with less damage Jinsung was KO'd. With more damage Kallavan went on to take on EVK head-on. That's not unimportant.

So, Kallavan had the upper hand in base attacks, damage tanking, defense, and flesh hardness/density. The only upper hand Jinsung COULD have had would be if he were what is essentially a 'glass cannon'. Now, no one would call Jinsung a glass cannon compared to anyone else but Kallavan. If Jinsung could have landed a strong attack while avoiding more damage to his comparatively weak body he might have irked it out. Meanwhile, Kallavan is a cast-iron cannon - having both strong offense and defense compared to Jinsung. He also had more gas. Jinsung would have to land a lucky blow, overcome the disparity in tiredness, avoid any further damage, and utilize only the strongest of attacks that require time to setup and the gas to do so. On top of that, his 'cannon' was cracked and lacked the mechanism to attack - his hands. All that while relying on Kallavan to sit back and take it as a relatively stationary target now knowing how strong the tiger/dragon attack was.

The likelihood that Jinsung could have overcome all that is slim to none. But if you want to believe he had a chance who am I to say otherwise.

Particularly when considering -

===================================



I can't deny that SIU likes to sometimes play coy in his blogs (see the 'prince of Zahard' blog ffs...). I could point out that 'difficult to predict' =/= impossible to ascertain, but that's a bit over-specific with the semantics. SIU has shown several times that he likes to pretend to not know, that's all well and good. But what is shown in his panels doesn't seem to match up with his noncommittal approach in his blog. He gives us, knowingly or unknowingly, enough data to come to a reasonable conclusion.

Jinsung could be the superior martial artist as far as skill all day long. OK, so what if he is? If he's too tired and broken and the target is too difficult to overcome short of spamming hail mary's then that doesn't exactly make it seem very likely. And that is how SIU portrayed the condition of Jinsung and the difficulty of his opponent. Relying on hail mary's results in a POSSIBLE win, but not a PROBABLE win.

I mean a 4yo could have more martial arts skills than me. The little shit could go from the best reproduction of a stance transitioned into a perfect kata and end with an on-point striking technique to almost any part of my body. But, realistically, I'd laugh as it would have little to no effect and I'd proceed to front-kick his baby teeth in. It's like Indiana Jones with a gun facing the sword-swinging Arab. I'm sure the later's style was flawless...

Saying that Jinsung is the 'better martial artist' if he can't overcome his opponent is essentially meaningless.



This is an assumption. You're assuming a temp freeze/fast-skip with no setup and no lasting effects is equatable to the bigger, flashier, longer-to-set-up, and more damaging (by 100% lol) ultimate/transcendent attack. It's like when Baam fast-skipped Tall that is in no way equivalent to Baam pulling out a thorn or BM and attacking him. While they COULD be equatable, that isn't likely considering.



SIU's doing the 'on this hand... but on that hand... but on another hand yet...' shtick (and having fun at our expense - 'hehe'). He's purposefully noncommittal. Probably for the fan-base of each. Yet, what does he SHOW in the actual fight?



we agree here... (and this is what we SEE and is thus arguably more important as it has the most results in the fight)



...but not here - this simply isn't shown to be the case. How do you figure?



So, he's incompetent is your argument?



All the more reason to think it would be an extremely slim chance for Jinsung to defeat him. If Jinsung wasn't tired, winded, bleeding, broken, and still had his arms then MAYBE he could do two (or more) transcendent skills back-to-back - with no time to 'reload' in between. Unlikely, but maybe. But considering the shape he was in the likelihood rapidly approaches zero - with some slim chance remaining because we simply didn't get to see a resolution and SIU taunts us about this...

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 19, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 19, 2019 ---

@Jammin or any admin - could you make a new 'who won the fight - Kallavan vs Jinsung' thread?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 19, 2019 ---

This method will miss a lot of the point-counterpoint quotations, but it's close enough to get started. I think it's too much a PITA for admin to move every and all posts manually that were OT in the chapter discussion, and also exposes them to spoilers...

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 19, 2019 ---

Lol, this response of yours is literally going against the author's intentions. Literally word of god for this series and you want to argue against it.

Yeah, no. I'm not arguing against anything. I'm pointing out, with good reason and examples, that SIU plays coy in his blogs some times (sorry the 'hehe' didn't give it away). I'm also pointing out he's being noncommittal - which he is. Lastly, while he does have complete creative control of the story that doesn't make him infallible. If he had a blog that said "in this chapter you can see that Jinsung is acting like ManBearPig" and the panels themselves don't exactly show that I'd also point out the seeming discrepancy. Showing what appears to be a completely one-sided fight then going on to shrug and coyly say 'well, who knows how it'd end, hehe' doesn't really align IMO.

is that why Kallavan got a hole through his stomach? Is that why he got frozen and needed to be teleport to the warp device? You're undermining Jinsung's martial arts skill/technique when we literally saw how even with such a big difference in raw stats he could still deal fatal damage to a super tank like Kallavan. And you're trying to tell me his superior martial art skills isn't worth anything?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Because that's exactly what we see. What RESULT(S) did Jinsung get with that hole in Kallavan's stomach or the RFC freeze? NONE. Jinsung, in fact, did not deal 'fatal damage' as you say to Kallavan. It would have literally taken double what Jinsung put out to kill Kallavan.

That's such a bad example. Is that child with just his martial art skills enough to punch a hole through you or something? No, right?

Hmm, OK... Give a 4yo child with knife-training a knife (if such a child could exist... why not). Yes, he could theoretically stab me fatally. But I'd have to just stand still for him/her to do so. Also, there's no guarantee the child has the strength to pierce my heart (it actually takes effort that a child might not have). So while the child COULD have a fatal attack it might take twice the force to fatally wound me even considering his training and all. Meanwhile, again, I might get nicked but I'd kick a 4yo's face through the back of his head.

Well in this case, Jinsung's skills is enough to 1) heavily wound Kallavan and 2) freeze his movements.

You conflate the visible appearance of damage with EFFECTUAL damage. NOTHING Jinsung did had any effect on slowing down, stopping, killing, tiring, preventing attacks or anything against Kallavan. Literally EVERYTHING Kallavan did against Jinsung had an effect.

Just this deadly combo alone is more than enough to take down Kallavan if the match play out well even if the odds are 4-6, 3-7 whatever.

I will give you this. There's no guarantee - given what we have seen - that Kallavan would win every match. Even in boxing/MMA it is widely known that fights not only go by skill alone but by chance and luck sometimes even. Two guys could match off 10 times with multiple results - even with a discrepancy of skills. Sometimes a punch fails to connect properly - or alternatively gets lucky and connects when in an alternate universe it would be offf by a fraction of a second and fail.

Personally, I don't think it's that close but to each their own.

If he can't overcome Kallavan? Are you even reading the same fight as I did?

Umm, yes? You read one where Jinsung wasn't man-handled before and after his ultimate attack? Are you reading the same fight yourself?

Kallavan himself commented on how dangerous it would have been if Jinsung followed up with another attack.

if if if if if if....

In a rematch, since Jinsung now know exactly how much of a durable tank Kallavan is, he would follow up with a 2nd or 3rd attack after the first or freeze him with reverse control before landing more of those ultimates.

Interesting head-canon battle. I'm sure Kallavan would just sit there knowing Jinsung has a Tiger/Dragon ultimate attack that potentially poses a threat. Instead of just hammering his face in and ripping his arms off before Jinsung gets a chance. Again, glass-cannon (compared to Kallavan only). All Kallavan has to do is shatter Jinsung's 'cannon' - like he did.

You're also assuming he could fire those off in succession with no effort at all. For all we know it's essentially like 'final getsuga tenshou' and is a one-shot cannon fire. Or at least uses up all/most of his shinsoo reserves.

With how SIU hyped Jinsung's arms as a history of martial arts in the tower this obviously isn't all Jinsung has to offer.

Funny, did SIU hype the EoB as inheriting literally the ancient, time-tested power of someone with the "complete mastery of martial arts" and who had reached the "absolute limit of bravery"? Those absolutes are arguably more hyped than Jinsung's arms.

We just haven't seen more of his techniques since Maschenny interrupted their fight (and especially considering how reverse flow control isn't that overpowered/special of a technique since even a ranker like Quantz could use it).

So you admit that RFC isn't a super-high-tier, high-powered technique. That's important because...

And why is that? Is there some special mechanic behind reverse flow that the technician can't attack right after using it? This isn't far-fetched at all. Do you even remember how Baam took down that bull in season 1? He froze it and then shot the fatal blast through his head.

I said you were saying that just because Jinsung did RFC that he could also do a followup fatal attack in the shape he was in. That is NOT CONFIRMED. It appears that RFC is easier to enact than his tiger/dragon attack which takes more out of the fighter and more time to set up. You are ASSUMING that because he could still do a RFC that he could ALSO have done any other attack including his transcendent skills attack. We simply don't know that. You can't make that statement of fact. But we can factually say he DIDN'T follow up with an attack which makes me ask why wouldn't he if he supposedly could?

No, what SIU is doing here is making the ACTUAL STANDING between Kallavan and Jinsung ambigious, as to their ACTUAL standing in the top 100 high rankers. SIU doesn't plan to let us know exactly how strong Jinsung is compared to Kallavan and Evankhell (50% release). And we as readers, could use his tidbits to draw an estimate conclusion.

Um, yeah. That's exactly what I said prior. SIU is being noncommittal yet the work speaks as evidence in of itself that allows us to come to conclusions that are fairly informed irrespective of the blog. Not sure why literally everything I say has to be contended with even to the point you basically are saying the same thing. And sorry the mischievous 'hehe' that SIU likes to use didn't clue you in on what he's up to.

And what we could infer from this blog is that #1) Kallavan is younger, as he'll probably last/tough it out through the fight or #2) that SIU is leaning towards Jisnung in favor as just 10-20 chapters ago he had Jinsung state that rankers like him grow stronger with age not weaker.

lol. Just because Jinsung grew stronger as a HR (btw, so did Kallavan by at least 3000 years...) doesn't mean he grew stronger than Kallavan in hardness or base attacks. And, as evidenced, his ancient flesh couldn't compete with a younger Kallavan regardless of hardening over the years. If Jinsung went from level 6.5 to 8.5 on the Mohs Hardness Scale that is indeed an improvement, but apparently he still can't compete with Kallavan's 9.0. We don't have to GUESS how strong Jinsung got by comparison - we explicitly see the gap in flesh hardness and attack power. So, it's not enough that he got stronger - he'd have to get stronger than Kallavan with EoB and it is clear that he didn't.

Thus, SIU is purposely misleading the audience and keeping us in the dark with this ambigious standing between fellow top 100 high rankers. Things aren't crystal clear between how strong these top 100 high rankers are in relations to one another.

Ah, the "SIU is trolling everyone when the evidence doesn't fit my opinion" argument. Also great for the "Baam is the true prince of Zahard... SIU's trolling us. Misdirection!" discussion.

So should we take SIU's words to heart or not? 'hehe' indeed.

Freezing 2 High rankers in the top 100. And you're seriously trying to ask me how? Are you serious here? Losing their movements for a few seconds is absolutely fatal to fighters of their calibre which is why Maschenny was inwardly shocked at this feat, especially if you also consider the condition he was in (fucked up arms, fucked up torso, and his lungs/chest was pierced and his body is of flesh and blood, not crystal).

Does asking the same question twice somehow lend credence to your argument?

You said 'Jingsung's martial arts skills more than bridge the difference' when we've seen no evidence of those skills having any lasting or effectual impact on Kallavan. What exactly has been 'bridged'?

And let's talk about 'losing their movements'... why didn't Jinsung RFC Kallavan THEN charge up and attack with his transcendent attack? Probably because the effect would wear off before he'd be ready anyways. Or, more likely, because he can't do RFC AND a high-level attack back-to-back - or he'd have done so (obviously transcendent skill at that level after being beat to a pulp took a lot out of him). Instead he takes Kallvan's attack head on (which did more damage btw) in order to get him close enough to release his attack. If you seem to think he could have done it better by using RFC don't you think he'd have avoided a direct hit? He was already gassed out at that point. For whatever reason he didn't RFC then dragontiger attack. Pretty stupid to take an attack if you can avoid it and deliver what you think will be a fatal blow.

Typical scenario where the old underestimate the youngin, especially with one he could previously defeat with utter ease. Not that hard to figure out exactly.

Um, yeah, he knows he's fighting someone that's now a HR, captain commander, with the EoB most importantly - that Kallavan JUST EXPLAINED and he just experienced the power of personally to boot (in addition to realizing his flesh wasn't as strong as he though compared to Kallavan's). What garbage justification - Jinsung would have to be retarded to be treating Kallavan the same as he did in the past. More justification that, if true, just continues to speak to Jinsung's incompetency as a fighter - or at least his inability to properly gauge his opponent's strengths and weaknesses (which is pretty much standard for 'superior martial artists').

Personally, I'd like to not think Jinsung is incompetent (maybe I just don't want to imagine it). Yet he assumed his Ha-hardened skin would be sufficient - it wasn't. He assumed his highest attack would be sufficient - it wasn't. Jinsung seemed to be resting on his laurels. And Kallavan - warning him all along and giving hint left and right - took him to task and wiped his ass with him. Jinsung had his one shot (knowing he was losing and had to do something) and it didn't work, unfortunately for him. Kallavan just picked up where he left off after Jinsung did all he knew to do. Which was to continue pulverizing him.

And that's where SIU disagrees with you. He clearly has different thoughts to your conclusion. SIU literally state "with the heavens shining upon Kallavan with Maschenny shows up" SIU could have easily gone with a number of different approaches to Jinsung's cornered retaliation.

Er, right. So if Jinsung had it in him why didn't he finish off Kallavan with a second transcendent attack (if RFC is no different from dragontiger attack) and then turn to face Mas (since you think he seemingly has unlimited ultimate attacks to spam). Oh, yeah, because he didn't have his arms and he's a martial artist and that move requires arms lol (he also was too winded). Instead, Jinsung takes a less-damaging shot to the same spot on his torso as Kallavan and could barely stand afterwards. The fact that he ONLY does RFC other than an actual attack is proof that RFC is all he could muster at that point. Before the gut shot, who knows? But he couldn't do the same attack again as Kallavan was sure to take his arms from him (plus, again, tired). Arms that were already barely hanging on before they were broken btw. Meanwhile, he huffed and puffed and bled all over. I mean it can't be understated that Kallavan at this point isn't going to just stand around and let him charge up again (if he even could, which is unlikely).

Anyways, what I'm trying to argue here specifically is that Jinsung more than likely lost this fight that did happen.

lolwut

But if they have another rematch it probably wouldn't be so lop sided the 2nd time around. Jinsung would know better than to fight Kallavan head on physically.

Likewise, Kallavan would know not to give him the opportunity for such an attack and know to remove his arms from the start. Dragontiger requires proximity and pretty much runs the risk of being suicidal if it doesn't deal a fatal blow - as we saw. No reason to think Kallavan would fall victim to the same attack twice either.

And adding in from SIU's blog a fight between the two isn't something that is absolutely guaranteed to be Kallavan's win 10/10 times. So yeah, take that however you want but this is my personal conclusion between the two.

Sure, a glass cannon (compared to Kallavan only) could land a lucky blow on an cast-iron cannon (well, TWO would be needed). But since Kallavan has crazy defense AND attacks and Jinsung seems to be a one-trick pony with only one high-level attack (that requires at least two blows that connect in a row btw) and a weaker defense and less ammo (gas) as well...

Improbable but not impossible it seems. IMO, of course!

 

[Jack Van Burace]

I think everyone is missing an important point here: Kallavan is a human collector. He usually doesn't kill anyone, he rather subjects these people into obeying him. That's the reason he targetted Jinsung's arms rather than his throat: he meant to crush Jinsung's Hope of defeating him, not to kill him. It is How he does things.

So If anything Jinsung was left alive by Kallavan, not the other way around. Kallavan has the absurd Power to remain alive and Fighting till when nobody Else can keep up, that is How he manages to fight without killing, that's the only way imo. Others, such as Jinsung, have to resource to death blows in order to not get killed. Kallavan is a benign cancer, he injures and mangles without killing. Only way to do so is to survive whatever the others have to throw at you. If he did, he won. That's the story.

 

[Orbs2op]

Imo jinsung could take kallavan, as yhs said kallavan got lucky to survive jinsung blessing cause kallavan blessing is boosted by eob which seems to an blessing, jinsung thought kallavan was dead for sure or he would have followed up and end him for good, which kallavan said himself he was in a critical state as well, jinsung made a critical mistake at the end and throughout the fight cause he trust his body too much, he is a better Martial artist than kallavan, the match up is just bad cause eob is too op in it applications, evankhell prob couldn't beat jinsung stronger body beast at close combat, but she could beat kallavan orb and fire cancels out eob and set him on fire, it's the match ups imo.

Look at the loops large aoe, fast and super concentrated shinsu cancels out eob, then you need the skill and the fire power to damage kallavan, kallavan is cool character but he doesn't seem overly skilled like he has layers or plan b, it brute Force or nothing, if jinsung knew eob was that powerful he would have approached the fight much differently, he clearly thought he could beat kallavan regardless of eob, because of their first encounter and the skill gap, he didn't stick around to see when kallavan first used eob, jinsung lost because he underestimated him.

 

[Ripcord]

Without knowing more about either of them I’m inclined to say the fight (if it was purely 1:1, which it wasn’t) would end up pretty much at a draw. Neither Kallavan nor Jinsung seemed to want to kill the other and they spent most of the fight feeling each other out.

It is true that Kallavan had somewhere to be, but as seen with Bam he doesn’t rush things, so he wasn’t hasty in his fight with Jinsung. At the same time, Jinsung was trying to draw out the fight a bit - it’s true he would preferably stopped Kallavan but any delay could increase Bam’s chance of survival, so I would guess Jinsung was more cautious in this fight.

My point is if Jinsung had picked up the pace, Kallavan would have plenty of ability to keep up. The fight then is still 50/50 because it depends on one surprising the other. I suppose if I had to pick a winner it’d be Jinsung 51/49 because he seems to have a much larger variety of techniques at his disposal. He did surprise Kallavan with his tiger/dragon flare wave though Kallavan surprised Jinsung by surviving it.

The only thing that makes me wonder is Maschenny's interference. It’s possible Jinsung still could have won at that point and maybe even he was still executing according to his plan but Maschenny prevented him from doing so.

 

[shaheer]

I am a big fan of jinsung but come on. The fight was mostly one sided. If they fought few times I d think the winning chance of jinsung is 30% while loosing is 70.
Jinsung 's hands were his main powers given his status as martial artist and kallavan crushed it. If jinsung barraged kallavan with blow after blow following his ulti then there was a chance.

 

[Orbs2op]

That the point kallavan ain't surviving jinsung best move without eob stacking on his blessing and he ain't beating jinsung in a fist fight without eob, if jinsung knew how eob worked before he confronted kallavan, he is beating kallavan as quickly as possible, instead of trying to tank eob and taking a lot of unnecessary damage.

again if he followed up after flarewave kallavan is dead, just reverse flow and blow his head off, and when his arm got crushed he clearly had something up his sleeves, jinsung is thousands of years old he is not gonna be useless without his arms in a fight to the death, his blessing is unhealing wounds, I'm sure he doesn't need his arms to gather enough shinsu around his legs and expand that hole or go for his head.

 

[kkck]

Based on what we saw, kallavan pretty much countered the vast majority of jinsung's arsenal. Jinsung specks include stuff that is probably not common in a ha (enough wave controlling to teach it, superb reverse flow control, the floral butterfly) but ultimately he is still a ha and as we saw the bulk of his skills are pretty much in line with a ha. And realistically speaking kallavan with his sufficiently strong body which then is ambiguously boosted by the essence of bravery is a counter to that. Granted that the floral butterfly is on itself a counter to physically strong bodies.. But even then, this is a fight where kallavan was the one dishing out damage most of the time. And he only took damage from a single most jinsung did. Add to that that kallavan simply has substantially greater capacity than jinsung to take damage. jinsung didn't take nearly as much damage as kallavan did, who ended up with a hole in his stomach, and even then he was pretty much on his last leg. That said, of course kallavan isn't so much stronger that it is impossible for jinsung to win. At least the difference is not large enough that the fight can't be decided in an instant with a hail mary from either side. IMO kallavan wins this fight say.... 65-70% of the time.

 

[Six.finger.SAGE]

I think everyone is missing an important point here: Kallavan is a human collector. He usually doesn't kill anyone, he rather subjects these people into obeying him. That's the reason he targetted Jinsung's arms rather than his throat: he meant to crush Jinsung's Hope of defeating him, not to kill him. It is How he does things.

So If anything Jinsung was left alive by Kallavan, not the other way around. Kallavan has the absurd Power to remain alive and Fighting till when nobody Else can keep up, that is How he manages to fight without killing, that's the only way imo. Others, such as Jinsung, have to resource to death blows in order to not get killed. Kallavan is a benign cancer, he injures and mangles without killing. Only way to do so is to survive whatever the others have to throw at you. If he did, he won. That's the story.

Whooh how can you say that he wants to collect him..they have known each either fro a long time..and due to importance of the mission kallavan would havnt want to make him his servants..
Killing Jinsung had become necessity.
And he broke his hand because they were reasons to fear...

 

[JamJar12]

Kallavan won/wins.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I think everyone is missing an important point here: Kallavan is a human collector. He usually doesn't kill anyone, he rather subjects these people into obeying him. That's the reason he targetted Jinsung's arms rather than his throat: he meant to crush Jinsung's Hope of defeating him, not to kill him. It is How he does things.

So If anything Jinsung was left alive by Kallavan, not the other way around. Kallavan has the absurd Power to remain alive and Fighting till when nobody Else can keep up, that is How he manages to fight without killing, that's the only way imo. Others, such as Jinsung, have to resource to death blows in order to not get killed. Kallavan is a benign cancer, he injures and mangles without killing. Only way to do so is to survive whatever the others have to throw at you. If he did, he won. That's the story.

Great point. Kallavan kept warning Jinsung. He only 'took' his arms to keep the threat away (knowing he was in that much control to be able to pick and choose how to disable his opponent).

Jinsung was pretty clear he thought his move would be fatal - and that he had to defeat Kallavan no matter what. If anything, in the context of the fight, it seems Kallavan was essentially toying with him once he took out EoB. That wasn't the case for Jinsung at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 21, 2019 ---

Whooh how can you say that he wants to collect him..they have known each either fro a long time..and due to importance of the mission kallavan would havnt want to make him his servants..
Killing Jinsung had become necessity.
And he broke his hand because they were reasons to fear...

No.

Kallavan makes it beyond clear he wants to subjugate anyone that doesn't bend a knee to Zahard.

He didn't crush his skull. He didn't rip out his throat. He didn't tear him in half.

He just took his arms. (with complete mastery and ownership btw - Jinsung was utterly helpless). With nominal effort too.

It's like pulling the pincer off a scorpion (temporarily - in this case it can heal) to let it live without being threatened by it's one move that could cause injury.



And if killing him was a 'necessity' why didn't he finish him off? Mas gave him the opportunity. He can move at lightning speeds - once he saw Jinsung pierced by her attack and incapacitated he could have spent a split second to kill him before leaving. We're not talking about lots of time here.

He either thought an incapacitated Jinsung was sufficient (it was) or he was outranked by a princess who wanted to take Jinsung prisoner or both most likely.

Kallavan would have wanted to 'collect' Jinsung in any other scenario - but right now his orders were centered around Baam. Jinsung got in his way so he had to make his way through him dead or alive. As long as Jinsung was no longer in his way he could continue to Baam. Mas was there to handle a neutered, near-dead Jinsung. He could come back to him at that point.

And what does 'knowing each other for a long time' have to do with anything? Jinsung wasn't exactly making himself available to Kallavan as this was clearly their first run-in after literally thousands of years.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 21, 2019 ---

Imo jinsung could take kallavan, as yhs said kallavan got lucky to survive jinsung blessing cause kallavan blessing is boosted by eob which seems to an blessing, jinsung thought kallavan was dead for sure or he would have followed up and end him for good, which kallavan said himself he was in a critical state as well, jinsung made a critical mistake at the end and throughout the fight cause he trust his body too much, he is a better Martial artist than kallavan, the match up is just bad cause eob is too op in it applications, evankhell prob couldn't beat jinsung stronger body beast at close combat, but she could beat kallavan orb and fire cancels out eob and set him on fire, it's the match ups imo.

It's impossible to say Jinsung "would have" followed up to end Kallavan. We simply don't know IF he had a follow-up in him. He was visibly tired and already on the point of bodily failure from being beaten. If he 'final getsuga tenshou'-d then he had shot his last load to be able to stop Kallavan by conventional means.

Jinsung's martial arts - against Kallavan - is being overrated/overvalued here. It showed ZERO EFFECT in countering Kallavan with EoB. Not only that, but maybe SIU forgot that EoB gives the user complete mastery of someone who had reached the Everest of martial arts from the ancient times. So, their martial arts - given what we are told about EoB - should have actually been pretty comparable. Apparently, SIU wants to give the nod to Jinsung in this regard in the blog, but that doesn't seem to jive with what we know about EoB. But, whatever. Jinsung had a weaker frame, less gas, and simply couldn't go the distance irrespective of his supposedly-superior martial arts.

Look at the loops large aoe, fast and super concentrated shinsu cancels out eob, then you need the skill and the fire power to damage kallavan, kallavan is cool character but he doesn't seem overly skilled like he has layers or plan b, it brute Force or nothing, if jinsung knew eob was that powerful he would have approached the fight much differently, he clearly thought he could beat kallavan regardless of eob, because of their first encounter and the skill gap, he didn't stick around to see when kallavan first used eob, jinsung lost because he underestimated him.

lol that Kallavan 'doesn't seem skilled' when the the EoB contains "ALL wisdom of fighting" by someone that had reached the absolute peak in ancient times - possibly even pre-Jinsung. Kallavan downloaded all that Kung-Fu a la Neo in the Matrix and instantly knew EVERYTHING. On top of that, it made him stupid strong that even ancient, hardened Ha-flesh is no match.

And if Kallavan knew dragon/tiger was that concerning he too would have approached the fight differently.

IF IF IF

Yes, Jinsung certainly underestimated him. But, as much as I like Jinsung, this makes him idiotic on SEVERAL COUNTS:

- Kallavan KEPT warning him during the fight
- Kallavan literally explained the EoB as a powerup, and what it offered him as a fighter
- Jinsung already knew how tough Kallavan was pre-EoB
- Jinsung had seen with his own eyes Kallavan's flesh was tougher than his
- A supposedly superior martial artist should be able to 'read' the fighting ability of their opponent
- Jinsung was fighting for Baam's life and knew he had to do ANY AND EVERY THING to stop Kallavan - but supposedly withheld lol, OK.



Jinsung didn't so much UNDERestimate Kallavan as he OVERestimated his own strength and abilities - this is beyond clear. This makes him a bit inept - at least against Kallavan. He was outclassed in every way.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 21, 2019 ---

Without knowing more about either of them I’m inclined to say the fight (if it was purely 1:1, which it wasn’t) would end up pretty much at a draw. Neither Kallavan nor Jinsung seemed to want to kill the other and they spent most of the fight feeling each other out.

It is true that Kallavan had somewhere to be, but as seen with Bam he doesn’t rush things, so he wasn’t hasty in his fight with Jinsung. At the same time, Jinsung was trying to draw out the fight a bit - it’s true he would preferably stopped Kallavan but any delay could increase Bam’s chance of survival, so I would guess Jinsung was more cautious in this fight.

My point is if Jinsung had picked up the pace, Kallavan would have plenty of ability to keep up. The fight then is still 50/50 because it depends on one surprising the other. I suppose if I had to pick a winner it’d be Jinsung 51/49 because he seems to have a much larger variety of techniques at his disposal. He did surprise Kallavan with his tiger/dragon flare wave though Kallavan surprised Jinsung by surviving it.

The only thing that makes me wonder is Maschenny's interference. It’s possible Jinsung still could have won at that point and maybe even he was still executing according to his plan but Maschenny prevented him from doing so.

This is simply untrue.

- Jinsung says he has to stop Kallavan 'no matter what'
- Jinsung clearly states he was trying to kill Kallavan, and thought he had done so
- Kallavan had a motive to clear Jinsung to get to Baam - he states if they don't defeat 'this man' then the rest of the plans are failed. He even tried to go around him to get to Baam quicker. Jinsung forced him to use EoB a few strikes in - pretty quickly. Their fight wasn't really that long before it got to lethal levels - it was just punctuated with the fight going on with Baam which took priority and flashbacks. Once unleashing EoB, Kallavan overwhelmed Jinsung and didn't let off for a second. And as soon as he was being wrecked, Jinsung pulled out what he thought would be a lethal move.

They were hardly dragging things out.

Oh, and by my count they each used exactly 2 signature moves against each other. Other than RFC. Hardly a long list of moves that Jinsung pulled out in a row or anything.