Chapter Tower of God Chapter 439 Spoilers & Discussion

[Jubei_Kibagami]

That's an interesting interpretation.

It is undeniable what SIU wanted was Mas to take Jinsung ALIVE as bait rather than allow him to be killed. Her motives are quite clear; I'm not sure how you think that's open to interpretation on my end. The importance of her arrival was primarily to preserve Jinsung for the overall story. If there's a secondary reason - supposedly to muddy the water over who would have won - then SIU as an author waited a bit too long if he wanted to show how the battered, tired, broken, neutered Jinsung was on equal grounds with Kallavan.

So what hindered Siu to make it clear? Kallavan defeats Jinsung, Jinsung loses conciousness, kallavan wants to deliver the final blow and Maschenny steps in to save him. They could also have a talk that makes it clear that Maschenny "betrayed" Jinsung. But that is not what has happened. Jinsung looked like a wounded beast that you pushed into a corner - that's a very dangerous kind of situation.

Again, if Jinsung screaming instead of countering was thought by him to be his best option when he JUST saw how an ultimate level attack wasn't enough in of itself and the person he's fighting has the ability to literally crush the life out of him then perhaps everyone is overestimating Jinsung's fighting prowess and abilities. It's not like Jinsung didn't know he had to stop Kallavan. He didn't free himself from Kallavan's grip. He didn't counter his damage by damaging Kallavan. All he had left in him was to scream. The danger was already at a fever pitch by both parties. It had nowhere further to escalate. Jinsung was fighting with what he thought was a fatal attack. Kallavan knew he had to neuter Jinsung just in case. Both had already telegraphed their intentions before Jinsung starting screaming because that's all that was left to do. If someone had a gun to my head I could scream too but that doesn't mean by merely screaming I have the ability to stop my execution. It would be different if he was able to push loose and damage Kallavan and THEN start screaming. But he screamed while his useless arms were STILL held by his opponent.

Jinsung had ALREADY been pushed into a corner. When the cig was knocked from his mouth he knew he had to pull out all the stops to stop Kallavan and he SAYS this. He uses what he thought would be a high-tier fatal attack. Jinsung was not withholding.

And taking his arms is serious,yes. But imagine taking Yuri's arms. She still could use something like the rose shower. That Jinsung could still play tricks was shown as well (reverse flow control).

Here you are conflating 'being able to attack to the fullest' with 'losing your arms' function not being anywhere near fatal'. I didn't say it wasn't important from an attack standpoint. I said it really didn't matter that Jinsung had broken arms as that wasn't what did him in. It was Mas' spear attack to his torso. And Kallavan PROVED he was able to go on and use high-level attacks and defense after a more-damaging gut punch-out. Jinsung couldn't continue with attacks or defense after a less-damaging torso attack. So while he was able to throw a last-ditched (ultimately useless) move out there that doesn't mean he was qualified to give Kallavan another fatal blow. While not an absolute impossibility, it is a bit of a stretch.

Broken arms wasn't what did him in as a fighter. It was having the shit kicked out of him and then taking a spear to the gut. Punches and blows and assaults that Kallavan shows he could have tanked (he tanked actually worse) and kept on fighting. Alternatively, Jinsung could not continue.

You don't believe Jinsung to be able to follow up, Jinsung didn't believe that kallavan could do that after his transcendent skill. He was wrong. Maybe you are as well, maybe i am. We don't know, because the situation is not clear, because that's what Siu wanted.

The panel(s) actually is(are) pretty clear. Here's the context:

- Jinsung was bleeding all over - including out of his mouth (Kallavan was not) - not a great sign if you think all things are relatively equal lol. Oh, well I will concede Jinsung was able to break Kallavan's nose. Which had zero effect on him lol. *sign of disproportionate abilities*
- Jinsung was huffing and puffing prior to pulling out all the stops and specifically after his transcendent attack (Kallavan was not) - please see the panels. Kallavan never showed signs of exhaustion (even after big bomber or atomic attack transcendent skills and then going on to fight others) and Jinsung had been showing them for several panels so far. *sign of disproportionate abilities*
- Jinsung's right arm was "a complete mess" and just dangling there from merely taking strikes (Kallavan was just fine) - his arm(s) BEFORE being 'taken' were already approaching their limits by Jinsung's own admission. *sign of disproportionate abilities*
- Jinsung spent an inordinate amount of energy, already being visibly winded, to deliver a blow that he THOUGHT would be sufficient and fatal. *sign of disproportionate gauging of abilities*

With that context in mind (none of which I believe you could argue against as it is all explicitly shown) Kallavan was able to immediately tank an attack that would be fatal to most anyone, probably even Jinsung himself, and overpower Jinsung in raw strength point-blank (not to mention Jinsung didn't have enough energy or speed to avoid being clasped as a 'superior tactician'). Jinsung didn't have much left to give and was in poor fighting shape, and that's before Jinsung's arms being attacked - but certainly afterwards. That is why he even had a momentary thought of teaching Baam an ultimate attack. Jinsung waxes about the importance of the attack because he thinks when pushed to the limits where he ADMITS he has to do everything he can to stop Jinsung that the attack is sufficient. If he held back then that doesn't fit the narrative. If he held back then he's not the best judge of strength and a so-called 'superior martial artist' without situational awareness is a bit oxymoronic.

It's impossible for me to say he absolute had no way of attacking further, but the fact is he quite simply didn't. And he WAS very visibly winded, and very visibly and effectively injured (unlike Kallavan - the scope of Kallavan's injuries didn't matter as it had no effect on him). Too winded and too injured and too slow and too weak (and too surprised) to avoid or stop Kallavan's next attack. So much for being a "tactician" in that regards. Base Jinsung was simply outclassed by Kallavan and balls-out Jinsung was outclassed by Kallavan as well. There was literally no sign that Jinsung was capable of countering simple attacks and the only card he had would be IF he could multi-spam his trump attack (and that's a big if considering). Which he either didn't and/or couldn't. We know he didn't, and I suspect he didn't because he couldn't. Why? Because the context of the entire fight and the condition he was in. None of which is unimportant, but seems to be glossed over.

SIU did not make it unclear who was in superior control in that fight. He did not make it unclear who was sustaining more effectual damage. He did not make it unclear who ended up more winded. He did not make it unclear who was or wasn't able to continue fighting after taking a blow to the same spot on the torso. He did not make it unclear who had the harder flesh.

The only thing that was unclear is IF Jinsung had enough gas in him for another high-level attack and IF he could even land one or perform one in the shape he was in. And to reiterate the shape he was in - pretty damn bad. (prior to Mas showing up). Because it was CLEAR all but the strongest attacks wouldn't stop Kallavan. And it was CLEAR that Kallavan DID posses the strength and power and defense to continue to wreck Jinsung. Jinsung is questionable, Kallavan is a given.

And in the totality of the context of the performance of each individual and the condition they were in (factoring in damage that had any effect, tiredness, speed of assault, use of appendages, etc - all 'wins' on Kallavan's score card) I personally think it extremely unlikely that Jinsung could have pulled it out all things considered. I'll stop short of saying it's an impossibility, because you are right we don't know.

But what isn't up to debate is that Kallavan had superior defense and ability to take damage. BOTH took hits to their abdomen. On Jinsung you have almost the same location with what can only either be a pin-hole sized hole or no hole at all (lightning damage without a hole at all) - it's difficult to tell. When Mas approached a down Jinsung he had no gaping wound like Kallavan did. Either way, Kallavan undoubtedly took more damage to the equally vital area. And with less damage Jinsung was KO'd. With more damage Kallavan went on to take on EVK head-on. That's not unimportant.

So, Kallavan had the upper hand in base attacks, damage tanking, defense, and flesh hardness/density. The only upper hand Jinsung COULD have had would be if he were what is essentially a 'glass cannon'. Now, no one would call Jinsung a glass cannon compared to anyone else but Kallavan. If Jinsung could have landed a strong attack while avoiding more damage to his comparatively weak body he might have irked it out. Meanwhile, Kallavan is a cast-iron cannon - having both strong offense and defense compared to Jinsung. He also had more gas. Jinsung would have to land a lucky blow, overcome the disparity in tiredness, avoid any further damage, and utilize only the strongest of attacks that require time to setup and the gas to do so. On top of that, his 'cannon' was cracked and lacked the mechanism to attack - his hands. All that while relying on Kallavan to sit back and take it as a relatively stationary target now knowing how strong the tiger/dragon attack was.

The likelihood that Jinsung could have overcome all that is slim to none. But if you want to believe he had a chance who am I to say otherwise.

Particularly when considering -

===================================

ya’ll realized that SIU mentioned in his blog if Maschenny didn’t appear, the fight between Kallavan and Jinsung could have gone either way, right?

from SIU’s blog post.

I can't deny that SIU likes to sometimes play coy in his blogs (see the 'prince of Zahard' blog ffs...). I could point out that 'difficult to predict' =/= impossible to ascertain, but that's a bit over-specific with the semantics. SIU has shown several times that he likes to pretend to not know, that's all well and good. But what is shown in his panels doesn't seem to match up with his noncommittal approach in his blog. He gives us, knowingly or unknowingly, enough data to come to a reasonable conclusion.

Jinsung could be the superior martial artist as far as skill all day long. OK, so what if he is? If he's too tired and broken and the target is too difficult to overcome short of spamming hail mary's then that doesn't exactly make it seem very likely. And that is how SIU portrayed the condition of Jinsung and the difficulty of his opponent. Relying on hail mary's results in a POSSIBLE win, but not a PROBABLE win.

I mean a 4yo could have more martial arts skills than me. The little shit could go from the best reproduction of a stance transitioned into a perfect kata and end with an on-point striking technique to almost any part of my body. But, realistically, I'd laugh as it would have little to no effect and I'd proceed to front-kick his baby teeth in. It's like Indiana Jones with a gun facing the sword-swinging Arab. I'm sure the later's style was flawless...

Saying that Jinsung is the 'better martial artist' if he can't overcome his opponent is essentially meaningless.

also another plus, Jinsung was able to freeze Kallavan and Maschenny at the same time, he has it in him to deal another fatal attack to Kallavan.

This is an assumption. You're assuming a temp freeze/fast-skip with no setup and no lasting effects is equatable to the bigger, flashier, longer-to-set-up, and more damaging (by 100% lol) ultimate/transcendent attack. It's like when Baam fast-skipped Tall that is in no way equivalent to Baam pulling out a thorn or BM and attacking him. While they COULD be equatable, that isn't likely considering.

plus with SIu mentioning how Kallavan was younger (add in the fact that we know Jinsung said he grows stronger with age, not weaker) SIU could maybe been leaning towards Jinsung

SIU's doing the 'on this hand... but on that hand... but on another hand yet...' shtick (and having fun at our expense - 'hehe'). He's purposefully noncommittal. Probably for the fan-base of each. Yet, what does he SHOW in the actual fight?

in straight up physical stats, Kallavan is undoubtably stronger than Jinsung

we agree here... (and this is what we SEE and is thus arguably more important as it has the most results in the fight)

but Jinsung’s techniques more than bridges that difference.

...but not here - this simply isn't shown to be the case. How do you figure?

You can say Kallavan was beating the life out of Jinsung in the first half, but the fight could also gone differently if Jinsung freeze Kallavan first instead of fighting him physically where he obviously isn’t Kallavan’s match in that field while he could also mercilessly throw attacks at him one after another once he froze him. In this fight specifically, Jinsung kinda looked down upon the younger Kallavan and paid for it. In a rematch, Jinsung is obviously not going to take his attacks head on so easily.

So, he's incompetent is your argument?

also, to ya saying how Kallavan could kept going after a supposed fatal attack, it his attribute. The dude is a literal crystal so fatal dmg to a normal being with fresh and blood wouldn’t apply to him.

All the more reason to think it would be an extremely slim chance for Jinsung to defeat him. If Jinsung wasn't tired, winded, bleeding, broken, and still had his arms then MAYBE he could do two (or more) transcendent skills back-to-back - with no time to 'reload' in between. Unlikely, but maybe. But considering the shape he was in the likelihood rapidly approaches zero - with some slim chance remaining because we simply didn't get to see a resolution and SIU taunts us about this...

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 19, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 19, 2019 ---

@Jammin or any admin - could you make a new 'who won the fight - Kallavan vs Jinsung' thread?

 

[VON]

I can't deny that SIU likes to sometimes play coy in his blogs (see the 'prince of Zahard' blog ffs...). I could point out that 'difficult to predict' =/= impossible to ascertain, but that's a bit over-specific with the semantics. SIU has shown several times that he likes to pretend to not know, that's all well and good. But what is shown in his panels doesn't seem to match up with his noncommittal approach in his blog. He gives us, knowingly or unknowingly, enough data to come to a reasonable conclusion.

Lol, this response of yours is literally going against the author's intentions. Literally word of god for this series and you want to argue against it.

Jinsung could be the superior martial artist as far as skill all day long. OK, so what if he is? If he's too tired and broken and the target is too difficult to overcome short of spamming hail mary's then that doesn't exactly make it seem very likely. And that is how SIU portrayed the condition of Jinsung and the difficulty of his opponent. Relying on hail mary's results in a POSSIBLE win, but not a PROBABLE win.

I mean a 4yo could have more martial arts skills than me. The little shit could go from the best reproduction of a stance transitioned into a perfect kata and end with an on-point striking technique to almost any part of my body. But, realistically, I'd laugh as it would have little to no effect and I'd proceed to front-kick his baby teeth in. It's like Indiana Jones with a gun facing the sword-swinging Arab. I'm sure the later's style was flawless...

Saying that Jinsung is the 'better martial artist' if he can't overcome his opponent is essentially meaningless.

is that why Kallavan got a hole through his stomach? Is that why he got frozen and needed to be teleport to the warp device? You're undermining Jinsung's martial arts skill/technique when we literally saw how even with such a big difference in raw stats he could still deal fatal damage to a super tank like Kallavan. And you're trying to tell me his superior martial art skills isn't worth anything?

That's such a bad example. Is that child with just his martial art skills enough to punch a hole through you or something? No, right? Well in this case, Jinsung's skills is enough to 1) heavily wound Kallavan and 2) freeze his movements. Just this deadly combo alone is more than enough to take down Kallavan if the match play out well even if the odds are 4-6, 3-7 whatever.

If he can't overcome Kallavan? Are you even reading the same fight as I did? Kallavan himself commented on how dangerous it would have been if Jinsung followed up with another attack. In a rematch, since Jinsung now know exactly how much of a durable tank Kallavan is, he would follow up with a 2nd or 3rd attack after the first or freeze him with reverse control before landing more of those ultimates. With how SIU hyped Jinsung's arms as a history of martial arts in the tower this obviously isn't all Jinsung has to offer. We just haven't seen more of his techniques since Maschenny interrupted their fight (and especially considering how reverse flow control isn't that overpowered/special of a technique since even a ranker like Quantz could use it).

This is an assumption. You're assuming a temp freeze/fast-skip with no setup and no lasting effects is equatable to the bigger, flashier, longer-to-set-up, and more damaging (by 100% lol) ultimate/transcendent attack. It's like when Baam fast-skipped Tall that is in no way equivalent to Baam pulling out a thorn or BM and attacking him. While they COULD be equatable, that isn't likely considering.

And why is that? Is there some special mechanic behind reverse flow that the technician can't attack right after using it? This isn't far-fetched at all. Do you even remember how Baam took down that bull in season 1? He froze it and then shot the fatal blast through his head.

SIU's doing the 'on this hand... but on that hand... but on another hand yet...' shtick (and having fun at our expense - 'hehe'). He's purposefully noncommittal. Probably for the fan-base of each. Yet, what does he SHOW in the actual fight?

No, what SIU is doing here is making the ACTUAL STANDING between Kallavan and Jinsung ambigious, as to their ACTUAL standing in the top 100 high rankers. SIU doesn't plan to let us know exactly how strong Jinsung is compared to Kallavan and Evankhell (50% release). And we as readers, could use his tidbits to draw an estimate conclusion. And what we could infer from this blog is that #1) Kallavan is younger, as he'll probably last/tough it out through the fight or #2) that SIU is leaning towards Jisnung in favor as just 10-20 chapters ago he had Jinsung state that rankers like him grow stronger with age not weaker. Thus, SIU is purposely misleading the audience and keeping us in the dark with this ambigious standing between fellow top 100 high rankers. Things aren't crystal clear between how strong these top 100 high rankers are in relations to one another.

we agree here... (and this is what we SEE and is thus arguably more important as it has the most results in the fight)

...but not here - this simply isn't shown to be the case. How do you figure?

Freezing 2 High rankers in the top 100. And you're seriously trying to ask me how? Are you serious here? Losing their movements for a few seconds is absolutely fatal to fighters of their calibre which is why Maschenny was inwardly shocked at this feat, especially if you also consider the condition he was in (fucked up arms, fucked up torso, and his lungs/chest was pierced and his body is of flesh and blood, not crystal).

So, he's incompetent is your argument?

Typical scenario where the old underestimate the youngin, especially with one he could previously defeat with utter ease. Not that hard to figure out exactly.

All the more reason to think it would be an extremely slim chance for Jinsung to defeat him. If Jinsung wasn't tired, winded, bleeding, broken, and still had his arms then MAYBE he could do two (or more) transcendent skills back-to-back - with no time to 'reload' in between. Unlikely, but maybe. But considering the shape he was in the likelihood rapidly approaches zero - with some slim chance remaining because we simply didn't get to see a resolution and SIU taunts us about this...

And that's where SIU disagrees with you. He clearly has different thoughts to your conclusion. SIU literally state "with the heavens shining upon Kallavan with Maschenny shows up" SIU could have easily gone with a number of different approaches to Jinsung's cornered retaliation.

Anyways, what I'm trying to argue here specifically is that Jinsung more than likely lost this fight that did happen. But if they have another rematch it probably wouldn't be so lop sided the 2nd time around. Jinsung would know better than to fight Kallavan head on physically. And adding in from SIU's blog a fight between the two isn't something that is absolutely guaranteed to be Kallavan's win 10/10 times. So yeah, take that however you want but this is my personal conclusion between the two.

 

[Jammin]

@Jammin or any admin - could you make a new 'who won the fight - Kallavan vs Jinsung' thread?

Done.
https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/kallavan-vs-jinsung-battle-discussion.3014177/

But please remember in the future that anybody can create discussion threads. And I highly encourage everyone do to so. These weekly threads aren't for in depth discussion of anything but the chapter it's for and the events related to it.

I haven't read this chapter yet but I have a sneaking suspicion that when I do I'm going to discover that there has been some offtopic-ness going on.

 

[Brian Taboada]

Done.
https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/kallavan-vs-jinsung-battle-discussion.3014177/

But please remember in the future that anybody can create discussion threads. And I highly encourage everyone do to so. These weekly threads aren't for in depth discussion of anything but the chapter it's for and the events related to it.

I haven't read this chapter yet but I have a sneaking suspicion that when I do I'm going to discover that there has been some offtopic-ness going on.

Lol... I think you may find a lot of off-topic discussion in many of these chapter threads. However, in everyone's defense (including my own), these chapters often bring about these discussions.

 

[Jammin]

I understand how easy it can be to get sidetracked. However, filling up these threads with irrelevant discussion hurts both the actual purpose of the thread, discussing the chapter/spoilers, and makes it so the discussion your having will be lost; as these threads are archived pretty quickly.

This is why it is not allowed.

 

[Six.finger.SAGE]

Huhhh..don't make this thread a debate to show your precedent thoughts..
The real question is whether Yama will be able to strip off kallvans skin or not ?

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Huhhh..don't make this thread a debate to show your precedent thoughts..
The real question is whether Yama will be able to strip off kallvans skin or not ?

I think Yama only needs to tank Kallavan's efforts, not to be able to kill him. That's kind of established that Bam will be the one to Deal injuries.

 

[Painmaker]

someone does know yamas ranking?

 

[darkraoul]

someone does know yamas ranking?

probably somewhere between 200-100 but in term of power maybe top 100 he took on Doom and Paul in 2v1

 

[shaheer]

probably somewhere between 200-100 but in term of power maybe top 100 he took on Doom and Paul in 2v1

IIRC he got help from another slayer so i doubt it was a true 2 v 1

 

[Monatoze Narutomaki]

IIRC he got help from another slayer so i doubt it was a true 2 v 1

yes beside that Ruelmon mentioned that the pack was divided into two and it was Yama's Pack VS Paul and Doom's pack...however right now it is clearly portrayed as such that Yama on his own can take on Paul, Doom and Gado... that's what Yama stated and that's why Doom agreed to play the game... so I do think he could be around 100 if not in 100

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

It's not 100% clear he had 'help' from a slayer though.

 

[kkck]

Based on the lore it was imort who helped out yama. However with the added context... It sounds like back in the day doom was the one that was supposed to be a slayer... then a good old fashioned fug inner conflict started and you had slayers and elders pit against each other... and yama came out on top.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Based on the lore it was imort who helped out yama. However with the added context... It sounds like back in the day doom was the one that was supposed to be a slayer... then a good old fashioned fug inner conflict started and you had slayers and elders pit against each other... and yama came out on top.

But the lore does not say Imort helped Yama. It doesn't.

Imort seems to either have been washed out of this story entirely, or Imort is Doom.

 

[Wha]

But the lore does not say Imort helped Yama. It doesn't.

Imort seems to either have been washed out of this story entirely, or Imort is Doom.

I looked imort up in the wiki and i found this

"Imort was rumoured to have helped Baylord Yama climb the Tower after the latter escaped from Bayroad"

so either Yama didn't told the whole story, or Siu changed it. Imort is Doom doesn't fit, because as far as we know, Doom never got to be a slayer. Yama took control over the cage before that could happen (at least that's the current information)

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I looked imort up in the wiki and i found this

"Imort was rumoured to have helped Baylord Yama climb the Tower after the latter escaped from Bayroad"

so either Yama didn't told the whole story, or Siu changed it. Imort is Doom doesn't fit, because as far as we know, Doom never got to be a slayer. Yama took control over the cage before that could happen (at least that's the current information)

And that is from what information that SIU has put out there?

What's the source? That info is only as good as the wiki - never trust wikis without reading the sources!




So, no, SIU does not use the word 'helped' at all. In fact, that's not even implied in the SOURCE MATERIAL.

Further, the trans for 437 absolutely makes it seem like Doom was a slayer prior to Yama. I can post that if you'd like.

 

[Wha]

And that is from what information that SIU has put out there?

What's the source? That info is only as good as the wiki - never trust wikis without reading the sources!

Under Imort, you find this reference.

1. ↑ GoDai blog: FUG Slayer – 7. Baylord Yama

If you follow it, you find this

Source
From FUG 슬레이여 – 7. 베이로드 야마 by SIU, from official fan cafe.

Since it was once stated that a lot of the original lore isn't canon anymore, i suspect Imort & Yama's relationship to be something like this. Or, again, Yama didn't told the whole story.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 22, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 22, 2019 ---

Further, the trans for 437 absolutely makes it seem like Doom was a slayer prior to Yama. I can post that if you'd like.

please do, it seems like i missed that!

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Yes, I'm familiar.

Yet again, there's no mention of HELP.

 

[Wha]

Yes, I'm familiar.

Yet again, there's no mention of HELP.

"Imort was rumoured to have helped Baylord Yama climb the Tower after the latter escaped from Bayroad"

? And i copy pasted that.....

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

please do, it seems like i missed that!

"Y: Yeah, I did win. I can kill Pauls all day. But Doom's different. He's special. He's the lifeline of the Dog Kin. All of the Metamorphosis powers of the Dog Kin are from Doom. We don't know our parents. All we know is that we are brothers and that we are stronger than humans. We called ourselves Wildhounds. Doom was our leader, and he was talanted at making packs unlike me. He also had the ability to share his power with others. He could even let normal humans become dog people so they can use Metamorphosis techniques We couldn't have children on our own, but those who received the power could, so we increased our numbers like that. But after that we had a problem when the Elders of Fug approached us. FUG wanted my brother's power so he could be made a slayer, but I opposed him. I had to. My brother had the power to mind control the dog kin he gave his power to. He could even make them all kill themselves if he wanted to. FUG and the Elders wanted to use that power to make us Dog Kin soldiers of Fug, and Doom got the position of Slayer by that. Paul was for, I was against. We fought for the seat of alpha. It was a long fight, but I beat Paul and I was able to trap Doom in the Cage and took his Heart.

Yama: But I had one problem left. I couldnt' give powers like him. If I killed him there, our power would have faded away, ending our race. So I borrowed power from the Fug and the Workshop. I promised to become a Slayer and lend my power, but they needed to make me a device that would extract the power out of Doom and give it to the Dog Kin. The Workshop did it, and I became a Slayer. I used it to give my minions my brother's Powers, and I made soulless Warhounds in order to serve as Fug's soldiers instead of our Dog Kin. They all thought it was me, but I had to do it for our peace. I don't care how we're looked at, I'm doing all this stupid shit to protect the pack."


So, Doom was a slayer first. Then Yama became a slayer after defeating him.