Predictions An Old Theory About Bam's Thorn

[Sanity Check]

We know Kallavan's Essence of Bravery contains an ancient warrior.

What's the official consensus on Bam's Thorn containing Enryu?

The last sighting of Enryu was killing the administrator of the floor of death. Then the thorn appears. The timeline fits.

 

[TheMoa]

My Guess is that's Not the case of the thorn.

I may be wrong, but If I remember correctly the thorn is dead inside. It's hollow.
The whole live ingnition weapon thing Was so they could Activate the thorn.
In the EoB Kallavan got acess to the warrior Memories. Like, the warrior's soul os there.

Doesnt know If Im making Sense here.. but that's How my line of thinking goes on this matter.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

I think the concept of EoB is that of a High Ranker level fighter trapped inside a jewel fusing with a High Ranker level fighter who got that jewel. They, Just as Red Thryssa did to Hell Joe, fuse their personality and become someone Else entirely. And assuming they were both High Ranker material, their Fusion of Powers granted the latter enough skill and Power as to reach top 200 level.

 

[kkck]

I think the concept of EoB is that of a High Ranker level fighter trapped inside a jewel fusing with a High Ranker level fighter who got that jewel. They, Just as Red Thryssa did to Hell Joe, fuse their personality and become someone Else entirely. And assuming they were both High Ranker material, their Fusion of Powers granted the latter enough skill and Power as to reach top 200 level.

The red thrysa kinda took over hell joe IIRC. Towards the end that was mostly the red thrysa at least. The EOB is different, at least so far there does not appear to be much evidence that it's taking over kallavan or anything like that.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

The red thrysa kinda took over hell joe IIRC. Towards the end that was mostly the red thrysa at least. The EOB is different, at least so far there does not appear to be much evidence that it's taking over kallavan or anything like that.

Tho Kallavan used to be humble and someone Jinsung considered possible to join FUG, being opposite of It now. Those things could ofc have been caused by Jinsung's speech rather than the influence of EoB. But Hell Joe's takeover could be a precedent to redeem White for instance, since Hoaqin is the "evilest" of the brothers and the only one that made a pact with Lich King. SIU could perfectly place the blame on the Skull King Demon for Hoaqin's personality side that commited all those genocides, all he gotta do is announce that these pacts might have the personality change as side effect, and the Hon bros. get to clear their criminal records.

Even for Hell Joe It wasn't absolute either. I cannot think that reading manhwa could be the Red Thryssa talking. Or the attempt to negotiate an exit from FoD with Karakka. That was Hell Joe talking, not RT. He got severely changed, but he is simply a regular (Just as Hoaqin), and that might matter a lot for resisting these stuff.

 

[TheMoa]

I dont think the warrior took over. Kallavan saw the Warriors Memories, the meaningless cicle of war.
So, as the warrior before, he strived for peace.. for his utopia.
It Was more of seeing the same thing and making decisions than getting their Wills merged, imo

 

[kkck]

Tho Kallavan used to be humble and someone Jinsung considered possible to join FUG, being opposite of It now. Those things could ofc have been caused by Jinsung's speech rather than the influence of EoB. But Hell Joe's takeover could be a precedent to redeem White for instance, since Hoaqin is the "evilest" of the brothers and the only one that made a pact with Lich King. SIU could perfectly place the blame on the Skull King Demon for Hoaqin's personality side that commited all those genocides, all he gotta do is announce that these pacts might have the personality change as side effect, and the Hon bros. get to clear their criminal records.

Even for Hell Joe It wasn't absolute either. I cannot think that reading manhwa could be the Red Thryssa talking. Or the attempt to negotiate an exit from FoD with Karakka. That was Hell Joe talking, not RT. He got severely changed, but he is simply a regular (Just as Hoaqin), and that might matter a lot for resisting these stuff.

But.... what little we saw from the memories or feelings kallavan saw was not indicative that the ancient warrior was anything like how kallavan is now. You'd think that if the EOB would affect kallavan it'd make him conform to how the ancient warrior was. Weary and tired of fighting.... rather than an unhinged fanatic. I'd say the evidence we have so far (which could plausibly change of course) points to the essence of bravery having exactly zero effect on kallavan's personality.

If there was blame for white's personality other than hoaquin then that should be placed on hon who consistently pushed him towards that darkness. I suppose its conceivable that white being this way is a side effect of the spells or whatnot but so far it does not appear to be the case.

I am not sure hell joe is a regular or a ranker. The series was never specific about that. To me it looked like the red thrysa pretty much took over around the time urek separated them though.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Gedo Mazo from the Narutoverse was considered a 'husk' and, spoiler alert, couldn't reanimate until all of the 'pieces' (as tailed-beasts) were gathered in it.

The thorn has been described as inert.

Yet we have ignition weapons with souls, 13mo series with souls, EoB's with souls... pretty much EVERY weapon in ToG has some entity in it or tied to it. Except the thorn curiously enough. Though it is incomplete.

I don't see why the thorn couldn't be like something alone the lines of Gedo Mazo.

 

[Sanity Check]

Food for thought.

Thorn and essence of bravery adopt the physical manifestation of gemstones. Physicists, cultures and fictional stories often attribute gems with having unique properties. Scientists credit dilithium crystals with having the power to propel space ships at faster than light speeds in trek. Physicists have credited gemstones with having properties which could in some sense defy both space and time. Spiritualists consider different stones and gems as having unique properties relating to metaphysical energies and the supernatural.

Space time manipulation and compression technology relating to dimensions are cornerstone of the ToG universe. Aguero Agnis owned a small bag that could fit many individuals inside. Rak's huge size was compressible to form mini Rak. Originally the essence of bravery was a big gemstone. Its size became compressed after Kallavan began using it. Bam's thorn also appears small when in use. Back during the time of the workshop battle however, the thorn was depicted as being very large.

Based on the above there are no reasons to think Enryu may not be inside the thorn due to size constraints. There may also be similarities between EoB and bam's thorn in terms of the fictional technology or techniques which went into developing them.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Food for thought.

Thorn and essence of bravery adopt the physical manifestation of gemstones. Physicists, cultures and fictional stories often attribute gems with having unique properties. Scientists credit dilithium crystals with having the power to propel space ships at faster than light speeds in trek. Physicists have credited gemstones with having properties which could in some sense defy both space and time. Spiritualists consider different stones and gems as having unique properties relating to metaphysical energies and the supernatural.

Space time manipulation and compression technology relating to dimensions are cornerstone of the ToG universe. Aguero Agnis owned a small bag that could fit many individuals inside. Rak's huge size was compressible to form mini Rak. Originally the essence of bravery was a big gemstone. Its size became compressed after Kallavan began using it. Bam's thorn also appears small when in use. Back during the time of the workshop battle however, the thorn was depicted as being very large.

Based on the above there are no reasons to think Enryu may not be inside the thorn due to size constraints. There may also be similarities between EoB and bam's thorn in terms of the fictional technology or techniques which went into developing them.

However, SIU said the Thorns do not speak. Those inside Bam are the Thryssas and BM, the Thorn not having a consciousness seems to signal nobody inside. Same for needing an irregular to activate.

Imo, Just as Yeon Woon was able to craft a tool using his Shinsoo, Enryuu might have made his Shinsoo into the Thorns. Ultimately, the Sweet Fire Fish might be the start of the understanding of what the Thorn is.

 

[Sanity Check]

However, SIU said the Thorns do not speak. Those inside Bam are the Thryssas and BM, the Thorn not having a consciousness seems to signal nobody inside. Same for needing an irregular to activate.

Imo, Just as Yeon Woon was able to craft a tool using his Shinsoo, Enryuu might have made his Shinsoo into the Thorns. Ultimately, the Sweet Fire Fish might be the start of the understanding of what the Thorn is.

Late into the hell train arc, Bam is trained by a god of guardians who introduces him to something called revolution road involving a rice pot. The consciousness Bam encounters inside the rice pot could be the consciousness inside the thorn. Like Jubei mentioned above that sequence of events reminded me of Naruto communicating with the kyuubi inside the seal.

There are alternate possibilities to Enryuu being locked inside the thorn. Its also possible Enryuu killed the administrator on the floor of death, then locked the administrator's essence inside the thorn. This could explain the extremely large size of the thorn during the workshop battles. I don't remember if people remember how large the thorn was during workshop battles, it was the size of a building. This could explain how Bam was able to acquire power similar to an administrator's.

Its also possible Bam had power similar to an administrator's before acquiring the thorn. Bam used a shinsoo attack on Hwa Ryun before making a contract with the floor admin which would seem to violate the rules of the tower.

There's another option where both thorn and essence of bravery contain no form of consciousness. As far as I recall, Kallavan doesn't communicate with whatever is inside EoB. The flashbacks between Jinsung and Kallavan also hint at Kallavan requiring thousands of years to learn to utilize EoB properly and Bam has mentioned that he is only able to utilize a very small fraction of the thorn's power, which could imply Bam will need time to utilize the thorn's full power as well.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Late into the hell train arc, Bam is trained by a god of guardians who introduces him to something called revolution road involving a rice pot. The consciousness Bam encounters inside the rice pot could be the consciousness inside the thorn. Like Jubei mentioned above that sequence of events reminded me of Naruto communicating with the kyuubi inside the seal.

There are alternate possibilities to Enryuu being locked inside the thorn. Its also possible Enryuu killed the administrator on the floor of death, then locked the administrator's essence inside the thorn. This could explain the extremely large size of the thorn during the workshop battles. I don't remember if people remember how large the thorn was during workshop battles, it was the size of a building. This could explain how Bam was able to acquire power similar to an administrator's.

Its also possible Bam had power similar to an administrator's before acquiring the thorn. Bam used a shinsoo attack on Hwa Ryun before making a contract with the floor admin which would seem to violate the rules of the tower.

There's another option where both thorn and essence of bravery contain no form of consciousness. As far as I recall, Kallavan doesn't communicate with whatever is inside EoB. The flashbacks between Jinsung and Kallavan also hint at Kallavan requiring thousands of years to learn to utilize EoB properly and Bam has mentioned that he is only able to utilize a very small fraction of the thorn's power, which could imply Bam will need time to utilize the thorn's full power as well.

SIU said after that that It wasn't the Thorn, as the Thorn doesn't speak. That is the Blue Thryssa, confirmed.

 

[TheLastMartian]

I always assumed the thorn was one of the 9000 Shinso bangs Enyruu made (he was able to take control of Shinso the same way Guardians are able to) that hit the guardian and drained some of its power which is why it didn't just disappear after, is red, and is somewhat able to let Bam control Shinso similar to a Guardian. Maybe the 3 thorns are the only 3 that hit the guardians real body and killed it / stole it's power.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 18, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 18, 2019 ---

This could explain how Bam was able to acquire power similar to an administrator's.

Its also possible Bam had power similar to an administrator's before acquiring the thorn. Bam used a shinsoo attack on Hwa Ryun before making a contract with the floor admin which would seem to violate the rules of the tower.

It was said irregulars can use Shinso without the guardians permission, but I imagine if the guardian wanted to it could still block the usage of Shinso by an irregular like on the floor of death with Urek and the red thryssa. I think it is the thorn that lets Bam be like Enyruu / guardians and actually take control of the Shinso away from them and as his own which is required to be able to fight one.

 

[xGen]

We know Kallavan's Essence of Bravery contains an ancient warrior.

What's the official consensus on Bam's Thorn containing Enryu?

The last sighting of Enryu was killing the administrator of the floor of death. Then the thorn appears. The timeline fits.

In my opinion, sience tower of god is just one of the storys in Tale Uzer universe, and we know that Arlene found a way out out of the tower. When we get answers about Arlene, Bam, and Thorn, it meens we ll be starting new story by SIU

we just have to wait for a few years.

And it can turn out that Thorn is nothing special outside of tower, since it was ”deliverd” for him

 

[Ripcord]

My theory is that the thorn is Enryu’s power, or most of it. Maybe it didn’t even come from him originally and he wielded it for a little while, but his body couldn’t handle it for too long.

After Enryu killed the guardian I think that he was overwhelmed by the Thorn and had to remove it or it came out on its own.

As we know, Hockney is tied to the Thorn somehow and he’s quite unlike the other residents of the FoD. He’s not undead (skeleton looking), and he’s not bug like. His ears look just like Enryu’s. Hockney is the shell that contained the thorn. Once he completes his painting and gets his eyes, I bet he remembers who he was.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

My theory is that the thorn is Enryu’s power, or most of it. Maybe it didn’t even come from him originally and he wielded it for a little while, but his body couldn’t handle it for too long.

After Enryu killed the guardian I think that he was overwhelmed by the Thorn and had to remove it or it came out on its own.

As we know, Hockney is tied to the Thorn somehow and he’s quite unlike the other residents of the FoD. He’s not undead (skeleton looking), and he’s not bug like. His ears look just like Enryu’s. Hockney is the shell that contained the thorn. Once he completes his painting and gets his eyes, I bet he remembers who he was.

I agree the first part is likely.

But Hockney? De Lee is normal looking. Mata is normal looking. It doesn't seem like everyone is a freak entirely on FoD.

Further, his biggest connection to Enryu is his eyes... Which aren't even his but De Sah's.

His memory was erased when he got his new eyes. Prior to that memory wasn't a problem... And he worked for Hell Joe. Even if Hockney forgot about who he was prior to the eye transplant, HJ was aware of who he was prior. You'd think Enryu wouldn't have worked for HJ as a mere underling.

Unless he lost his memory twice?

 

[toil]

Random thought: thorn is the leftovers of Arlene, or somehow made from her, or she's been melted into it, or something.

What's been weird to me, forever, is that Enryuu seemingly knows about Arlene, her prophecy, and the role he's playing within it by delivering that thorn. The Floor of Death is also Arlene's favorite place, he leaves the thorn behind in her favorite place, and so on.

It stands out to me in hindsight that we only get the "spell-breaking" capability for Baam after he's acquired his first thorn fragment. Yeah, sure, we only learn about spells around then, too, but still—it's interesting.

If this theory is in the right direction I suspect Arlene's soul will be elsewhere. Maybe it's just gone, maybe it left the thorn when it got broken into fragments—which would be why it was "inert" when FUG found it—and Baam will find it whenever, I dunno, he returns to FoD or acquires all the fragments.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Random thought: thorn is the leftovers of Arlene, or somehow made from her, or she's been melted into it, or something.

What's been weird to me, forever, is that Enryuu seemingly knows about Arlene, her prophecy, and the role he's playing within it by delivering that thorn. The Floor of Death is also Arlene's favorite place, he leaves the thorn behind in her favorite place, and so on.

It stands out to me in hindsight that we only get the "spell-breaking" capability for Baam after he's acquired his first thorn fragment. Yeah, sure, we only learn about spells around then, too, but still—it's interesting.

If this theory is in the right direction I suspect Arlene's soul will be elsewhere. Maybe it's just gone, maybe it left the thorn when it got broken into fragments—which would be why it was "inert" when FUG found it—and Baam will find it whenever, I dunno, he returns to FoD or acquires all the fragments.

I like this. It coincides with us being told we'll see Arlen again, and the obvious milestone would be collecting all shards and activating the thorn. Trigger Simba's Mufasa speech for Baam from Arlen. Almost like Minato did for Naruto when installing a trigger to send him a message at the right time.

I've always suspected the thorn isn't actually dead... I think it was described as 'inert' which is an odd way of describing something and almost implies it was living at some point and can perhaps be brought back to life somehow.

There's too much going on with beings existing in ignition weapons and/or living ignition weapons themselves for the thorn to not be included in that category.