Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Rain Spectre]

I fail to get this logic, why should Jump give veterans extra parameters? If the series fails to build interest, it fails to build interest, and consequently keeping it around turns it into an anchor around Jump's feet. Canceling a series, be from a newbie or a veteran, frees up space and can lead to something which actually sticks being found, it's as simple as that, and I fail to see why having past achievements should protect veterans from that system .

What's the ETA on when we'll start seeing Sam8 numbers?

A few hours.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

But not giving a break even to veterans is part of what has allowed Jump to stay healthy? Hungry Marie, Robot x Laserbeam and right now Yui Kamio were all titles which failed to incure audience interest long-term and they were punished as a result.

Call it harsh, but that's just reality.

I fail to get this logic, why should Jump give veterans extra parameters? If the series fails to build interest, it fails to build interest, and consequently keeping it around turns it into an anchor around Jump's feet. Canceling a series, be from a newbie or a veteran, frees up space and can lead to something which actually sticks being found, it's as simple as that, and I fail to see why having past achievements should protect veterans from that system .

No, its not the reality, it's the "Shonen Jump" reality, and a sad one, the rest of the industry doesn't work like that because they can't just afford to throw away veterans and talents like Shonen Jump do, they're not cultivated in trees, there's a reason why magazines like Shonen Magazine and Shonen Sunday have such a loyal relationship with their authors, because these magazines cultivate their talents and create a home for these authors where they can come back and be treated with respect since you know, they gave a lot of money for these magazines.

Of course this industry isn't charity and if you really don't sell, you will end up being cancelled despite being popular but isn't like Shonen Jump where you can write a big hit for them and in the next work be treated like you're a nobody, this is a disrespectful practice that almost only Shonen Jump really do and they pay for that seeing how many talents they just lose all the time because their own system and now Jump Plus is even stealing their authors.

You fail to get the logic because you're too sucked up into the "Shonen Jump world" and you don't see yet how this practice it's really not that good and much less "healthy", i was like that years ago thinking like "man, why the other magazines just doesn't do how Jump do?" and so i started to realise why not and started to have more respect for the other manga magazines and less respect for some of the Shonen Jump practices.

 

[TxxT]

What's the ETA on when we'll start seeing Sam8 numbers?

Next week when Oricon numbers drop, its pointless paying attention to daily shoseki

 

[Jovan]

No, its not the reality, it's the "Shonen Jump" reality, and a sad one, the rest of the industry doesn't work like that because they can't just afford to throw away veterans and talents like Shonen Jump do, they're not cultivated in trees, there's a reason why magazines like Shonen Magazine and Shonen Sunday have such a loyal relationship with their authors, because these magazines cultivate their talents and create a home for these authors where they can come back and be treated with respect since you know, they gave a lot of money for these magazines.

Of course this industry isn't charity and if you really don't sell, you will end up being cancelled despite being popular but isn't like Shonen Jump where you can write a big hit for them and in the next work be treated like you're a nobody, this is a disrespectful practice that almost only Shonen Jump really do and they pay for that seeing how many talents they just lose all the time because their own system and now Jump Plus is even stealing their authors.

You fail to get the logic because you're too sucked up into the "Shonen Jump world" and you don't see yet how this practice it's really not that good and much less "healthy", i was like that years ago thinking like "man, why the other magazines just doesn't do how Jump do?" and so i started to realise why not and started to have more respect for the other manga magazines and less respect for some of the Shonen Jump practices.

Sakuratetsu Taiwahen, Tsurikizo Pintarou, Yuuto, Jumbor Balutronica and Gun West Blaze dying in like 2-3 vols back then despite their mangakas being behind Hoshin Engi, Hell Teacher Nube, Hikaru no Go, Shaman King and Rurouni.. Jump was so brutal back then.

 

[Rain Spectre]

No, its not the reality, it's the "Shonen Jump" reality, and a sad one, the rest of the industry doesn't work like that because they can't just afford to throw away veterans and talents like Shonen Jump do, they're not cultivated in trees, there's a reason why magazines like Shonen Magazine and Shonen Sunday have such a loyal relationship with their authors, because these magazines cultivate their talents and create a home for these authors where they can come back and be treated with respect since you know, they gave a lot of money for these magazines.

Of course this industry isn't charity and if you really don't sell, you will end up being cancelled despite being popular but isn't like Shonen Jump where you can write a big hit for them and in the next work be treated like you're a nobody, this is a disrespectful practice that almost only Shonen Jump really do and they pay for that seeing how many talents they just lose all the time because their own system and now Jump Plus is even stealing their authors.

You fail to get the logic because you're too sucked up into the "Shonen Jump world" and you don't see yet how this practice it's really not that good and much less "healthy", i was like that years ago thinking like "man, why the other magazines just doesn't do how Jump do?" and so i started to realise why not and started to have more respect for the other manga magazines and less respect for some of the Shonen Jump practices.

Really? Because creating a dependency on veteran authors is a practice which narrows the scope of the publication. It creates a dependency on the authors to continue publishing new material over actually letting the magazine evolve with new creators and works. Sunday for example is still reliant on Takahashi, Aoyama, Adachi and Fujita, authors who joined as many as 40 years ago, to sustain themselves, and, aside from Tomohito Oda (author of Komi-san), virtually every author there has been there now for almost a decade.

"Losing talents"? How exactly, because Jump disposes of series which are lagging behind in popularity and sales growth regardless of the writer? Robot x Laserbeam, Hungry Marie and Yui Kamio were/are all series which struggled to find an audience and contributed little to Jump as a brand, chosing to cancel them is the right decision from a business and honestly creative standpoint. And how the hell is Jump+ "stealing authors"? Besides Shinohara (who did Astra on Jump+ because the main editorial office rejected the series original pitch), all the success stories from the platform have, like the main magazine, been prior failed or unknown authors. And two (Tsutsui and Fujimoto) would end up migrating to the main platform where they'd get even more success.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Really? Because creating a dependency on veteran authors is a practice which narrows the scope of the publication. It creates a dependency on the authors to continue publishing new material over actually letting the magazine evolve with new creators and works. Sunday for example is still reliant on Takahashi, Aoyama, Adachi and Fujita, authors who joined as many as 40 years ago, to sustain themselves, and, aside from Tomohito Oda (author of Komi-san), virtually every author there has been there now for almost a decade.

"Losing talents"? How exactly, because Jump disposes of series which are lagging behind in popularity and sales growth regardless of the writer? Robot x Laserbeam, Hungry Marie and Yui Kamio were/are all series which struggled to find an audience and contributed little to Jump as a brand, chosing to cancel them is the right decision from a business and honestly creative standpoint. And how the hell is Jump+ "stealing authors"? Besides Shinohara (who did Astra on Jump+ because the main editorial office rejected the series original pitch), all the success stories from the platform have, like the main magazine, been prior failed or unknown authors. And two (Tsutsui and Fujimoto) would end up migrating to the main platform where they'd get even more success.

You just showed what i said, you're too sucked up into the "Shonen Jump world and system" and thinks that what SJ do it's what it's the best when you have literally the rest of the entire industry doing the opposite or at least in a more respectful way, this industry would have colapsed a long time ago if every manga magazine acted like SJ cancelling and throwing away every author that doesn't sell enough to be in the "Oricon Top 50" or isn't getting enough votes in a survey, i don't know if you realise but there's a entire world under that 50th place and they're profitable series, just because Shonen Jump don't see much value on mangas that doesn't sell over 15k/20k in a week doesn't mean the rest of the industry don't see, and with that SJ just lose and lose many and many talents, it's how Shonen Jump is, but the rest isn't like that.

Sakuratetsu Taiwahen, Tsurikizo Pintarou, Yuuto, Jumbor Balutronica and Gun West Blaze dying in like 2-3 vols back then despite their mangakas being behind Hoshin Engi, Hell Teacher Nube, Hikaru no Go, Shaman King and Rurouni.. Jump was so brutal back then.

I would say that Takei really had a rough life on Shonen Jump and Shueisha, no surprise about him getting tired of it and leaving with Shaman King to Kodansha,

 

[Paze]

You just showed what i said, you're too sucked up into the "Shonen Jump world and system" and thinks that what SJ do it's what it's the best when you have literally the rest of the entire industry doing the opposite or at least in a more respectful way, this industry would have colapsed a long time ago if every manga magazine acted like SJ cancelling and throwing away every author that doesn't sell enough to be in the "Oricon Top 50" or isn't getting enough votes in a survey, i don't know if you realise but there's a entire world under that 50th place and they're profitable series, just because Shonen Jump don't see much value on mangas that doesn't sell over 15k/20k in a week doesn't mean the rest of the industry don't see, and with that SJ just lose and lose many and many talents, it's how Shonen Jump is, but the rest isn't like that.

Wsj is only one magazine, jump has many other magazines with less popular series that are surely less competitive.

I don't see how cancelling a failing series is throwing the author away when they can still come back and try again a few times to get a hit.

The rest of the magazines may act differently, but jump is number 1, can't really say their system is bad in that regard if they are doing better.

 

[Thores]

Regardless of whether or not Kishimoto deserves extra privileges, one thing that's clear from his run on Naruto is that he's a slow starter. His storytelling depends on executing big payoffs that only work if he's allowed to spend a lengthy period of time setting things up. Weekly Shonen Jump knew what kind of writer Kishimoto was when they brought him back for Samurai 8. So if they cancel it halfway through his intended run you'll have to wonder why they bothered to bring him back in the first place, instead of literally any other veteran with a faster paced storytelling style.

Maybe it's not about repaying Kishimoto for his loyalty. WSJ is a business, after all, and not a country club. But what a business should be about is utilizing the tools you have to their maximum potential, and Kishimoto works best with the slow, methodical approach. If WSJ isn't going to let that play out, and treat Kishimoto like any other rookie that doesn't have the proven capability to build momentum over time, then what was the point?

 

[Rain Spectre]

You just showed what i said, you're too sucked up into the "Shonen Jump world and system" and thinks that what SJ do it's what it's the best when you have literally the rest of the entire industry doing the opposite or at least in a more respectful way, this industry would have colapsed a long time ago if every manga magazine acted like SJ cancelling and throwing away every author that doesn't sell enough to be in the "Oricon Top 50" or isn't getting enough votes in a survey, i don't know if you realise but there's a entire world under that 50th place and they're profitable series, just because Shonen Jump don't see much value on mangas that doesn't sell over 15k/20k in a week doesn't mean the rest of the industry don't see, and with that SJ just lose and lose many and many talents, it's how Shonen Jump is, but the rest isn't like that.

...But this is about growth and popularity, not hard sales? Kimestu and Act-Age started small, but they had enough fans to where they were kept and allowed to grow. A series which is only running on past loyalty and not investment of the readers themselves is failing, it might technically be selling better than some, but only because of the past, not the future like Jump wants.

Also, what on Earth does this have to do with not giving extra passes to veteran authors?

 

[Paze]

Regardless of whether or not Kishimoto deserves extra privileges, one thing that's clear from his run on Naruto is that he's a slow starter. His storytelling depends on executing big payoffs that only work if he's allowed to spend a lengthy period of time setting things up. Weekly Shonen Jump knew what kind of writer Kishimoto was when they brought him back for Samurai 8. So if they cancel it halfway through his intended run you'll have to wonder why they bothered to bring him back in the first place, instead of literally any other veteran with a faster paced storytelling style.

Maybe it's not about repaying Kishimoto for his loyalty. WSJ is a business, after all, and not a country club. But what a business should be about is utilizing the tools you have to their maximum potential, and Kishimoto works best with the slow, methodical approach. If WSJ isn't going to let that play out, and treat Kishimoto like any other rookie that doesn't have the proven capability to build momentum over time, then what was the point?

I didn't think s8 was a slow starter, actually a lot of ground has been covered.

S8 got a lot of extra support anyway, it wasn't treated like any other series at the start.

 

[101nemesis]

...But this is about growth and popularity, not hard sales? Kimestu and Act-Age started small, but they had enough fans to where they were kept and allowed to grow. A series which is only running on past loyalty and not investment of the readers themselves is failing, it might technically be selling better than some, but only because of the past, not the future like Jump wants.

Also, what on Earth does this have to do with not giving extra passes to veteran authors?

No one is saying returning mangaka should get immunity and have their work protected, despite that being the case in other magazines depending on who returns. But people really need to stop complaining about someone like Kishimoto getting special privileges because his work contributed more to so many industries (anime/manga/gaming/movie theaters etc.) than 90% of other series combined.

We can argue about how good or bad Naruto is, or if other mangaka such as Tamura or Fujimaki or Shiibashi require extra treatment. But there is a certain level of respect and treatment someone like Kishimoto deserves. Naruto is an essential part of the anime and manga industry both inside and outside Japan.
The movie industry treats some actors like Robert De Niro or Tom Hanks with utmost respect because of how many years they've put into it, how much their works have contributed to the industry and form an essential part of the industry's history.

It's not like S8 is immune either. Everyone completely expects it to get cancelled within two years if its a dud. But asking for two years and extra push from WSJ is not much at all especially when people are surprised at how little WSJ pushed S8 leading up to its volume releases.

 

[Paze]

No one is saying returning mangaka should get immunity and have their work protected, despite that being the case in other magazines depending on who returns. But people really need to stop complaining about someone like Kishimoto getting special privileges because his work contributed more to so many industries (anime/manga/gaming/movie theaters etc.) than 90% of other series combined.

We can argue about how good or bad Naruto is, or if other mangaka such as Tamura or Fujimaki or Shiibashi require extra treatment. But there is a certain level of respect and treatment someone like Kishimoto deserves. Naruto is an essential part of the anime and manga industry both inside and outside Japan.
The movie industry treats some actors like Robert De Niro or Tom Hanks with utmost respect because of how many years they've put into it, how much their works have contributed to the industry and form an essential part of the industry's history.

It's not like S8 is immune either. Everyone completely expects it to get cancelled within two years if its a dud. But asking for two years and extra push from WSJ is not much at all especially when people are surprised at how little WSJ pushed S8 leading up to its volume releases.

Kishimoto already has an advantage from being kishimoto, plus all the extra advertising samurai 8 got, if you're saying that even if it sells poorly enough to get axed they should push it more and let it go longer, I think that's overkill.

 

[Rain Spectre]

No one is saying returning mangaka should get immunity and have their work protected, despite that being the case in other magazines depending on who returns. But people really need to stop complaining about someone like Kishimoto getting special privileges because his work contributed more to so many industries (anime/manga/gaming/movie theaters etc.) than 90% of other series combined.

We can argue about how good or bad Naruto is, or if other mangaka such as Tamura or Fujimaki or Shiibashi require extra treatment. But there is a certain level of respect and treatment someone like Kishimoto deserves. Naruto is an essential part of the anime and manga industry both inside and outside Japan.
The movie industry treats some actors like Robert De Niro or Tom Hanks with utmost respect because of how many years they've put into it, how much their works have contributed to the industry and form an essential part of the industry's history.

It's not like S8 is immune either. Everyone completely expects it to get cancelled within two years if its a dud. But asking for two years and extra push from WSJ is not much at all especially when people are surprised at how little WSJ pushed S8 leading up to its volume releases.

I'm honestly confused what you want Shueisha to exactly do. They gave Samurai 8 a very extensive advertising campaign before it launched with billboards across Tokyo's biggest railway, 180 advertisements scattered across Shibuya, interviews in multiple high-profile magazines, the list goes on. They did all that, because Kishimoto coming back was considered a huge deal. That they showed the preview at Jump Festa is evidence of it, it's something they've never done before.

And yet, after Samurai 8 started, the reception and feedback it got was, uh, mixed at best to be blunt, and certainly not what was most likely desired by marketing. And this reputation hasn't really changed either.

So what do you want Shueisha to do, promote a series with an already shaky standing among readers even harder just because of its author? Shinhei Hayashi (editor of Chainsaw Man, Spy x Family and a bunch of other Jump+ series) outright stated that trying to push a series which isn't considered interesting by readers is a bad thing because it harms the faith people have in the company. What Shueisha has been doing with S8 is literally the most logical course of action.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Wsj is only one magazine, jump has many other magazines with less popular series that are surely less competitive.

I don't see how cancelling a failing series is throwing the author away when they can still come back and try again a few times to get a hit.

The rest of the magazines may act differently, but jump is number 1, can't really say their system is bad in that regard if they are doing better.

The whole point isn't about cancelling what is failing, but the whole ruthless practice of Shonen Jump regarding veterans, and what is a failure depends a lot, the thing with SJ is that they're like a slave of their own system, you can sell more than enough to survive well in any other manga magazine, but if you're not doing well in the rankings/surveys they just cancel your manga doesn't matter if is a newbie or a veteran.

Isn't just as easy as "try again", there's a reason why so many popular authors that started on Jump never had anything more in the magazine, it's because the system, they want to treat a author that gave a lot of money to them like they treat a newbie that just started now, put these authors again under the pressure of having to go well in surveys and sell a certain amount of copies, if not maybe you will get 30 chapters and bye bye, seriously, who would want to get back after this?

It's how Shonen Jump works but isn't because they're the number 1 of that it makes the best system because even Shonen Jump is slowly changing and lowering their standards of sales.

...But this is about growth and popularity, not hard sales? Kimestu and Act-Age started small, but they had enough fans to where they were kept and allowed to grow. A series which is only running on past loyalty and not investment of the readers themselves is failing, it might technically be selling better than some, but only because of the past, not the future like Jump wants.

Also, what on Earth does this have to do with not giving extra passes to veteran authors?

You don't really get, i'm not talking about SJ publishing veterans for years just because a name, if the manga really doesn't sell, they're gonna be cancelled or quickly ended even with the author being well known, the thing is Shonen Jump system is naturally a bad fit for veterans, it forces SJ to be ruthless with authors that gave them money and popularity just because the series isn't selling at the standards that they created or because isn't getting enough votes, Shonen Jump has a long history of bad and disrespectful treatment with their big names because of this "ultra competitive" envoirment they created, to the point where you can have the crazy talk about Masashi Kishimoto possibly being cancelled because isn't "selling that much" or isn't "doing so well in the rankings".

Your logic about "failing" is nothing more than something based on how Shonen Jump works and their standard, not how the rest of the magazines works and their standards to what is or not a failure.

 

[101nemesis]

Kishimoto already has an advantage from being kishimoto, plus all the extra advertising samurai 8 got, if you're saying that even if it sells poorly enough to get axed they should push it more and let it go longer, I think that's overkill.

No. Just stop complaining the manga is getting pushed before its first two volumes come out and that he's getting "special treatment".
If its a dud, we are all aware that WSJ will stop pushing it.

If they still push it despite it being a total failure, then yeah sure. Then we all can cry that WSJ is giving him "special treatment" at that point.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 5, 2019 ---

Next week when Oricon numbers drop, its pointless paying attention to daily shoseki

It'll still be a fun thing to watch tbh. Can someone share the link? I'd monitor it just to see how well it ranks.

 

[ChocoBar9]

Which just just goes to show how overall Shonen Jump do a terrible job with veterans just because of their own system, no one thinks Edens Zero will ever be cancelled by Shonen Magazine or MAO by Shonen Sunday, because even if these mangas were selling bad (which isn't the case) both Mashima and Rumiko did so much for these magazines and even the industry too that would be a huge shame and disrespect for these magazine to cancel their biggest names, but here we are talking months about the possibility of Masashi Kishimoto being cancelled in like 1 year if doesn't sell great, something that in literally any other magazine would be just crazy talk.

Eden's Zero won't be half as popular as FT and much like Rinne before nobody seems to care a great deal about MAO, theyll survive because Sunday and Magazine don't have steep competition (they both still have their 00s series still running whereas Jump ended the last of it this year) so its not a matter of they can never fail moreso that their magazines will never give them steep competition. Kishi will just follow the long list of Jump mangaka who never had a second hit after their first but given that Naruto is one of the best selling manga series of all time its not a bad legacy at all.

 

[TyVip]

No. Just stop complaining the manga is getting pushed before its first two volumes come out and that he's getting "special treatment".
If its a dud, we are all aware that WSJ will stop pushing it.

If they still push it despite it being a total failure, then yeah sure. Then we all can cry that WSJ is giving him "special treatment" at that point.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 5, 2019 ---

It'll still be a fun thing to watch tbh. Can someone share the link? I'd monitor it just to see how well it ranks.

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[Tymano]

I feel like there is a big difference between Kishimoto and Fujimaki is that even if Kuroko was a million per volume seller, we are comparing the authors of a series that sold 30 million copies to one that sold 250 million copies, the third highest selling manga in the magazines history. If Jump is willing to cancel a manga from a veteran like Kishimoto it might have the adverse effect of scaring away both prospective new authors as well as former veterans from the magazine, all while soiling Jumps reputation at the same time.

 

[Paze]

The whole point isn't about cancelling what is failing, but the whole ruthless practice of Shonen Jump regarding veterans, and what is a failure depends a lot, the thing with SJ is that they're like a slave of their own system, you can sell more than enough to survive well in any other manga magazine, but if you're not doing well in the rankings/surveys they just cancel your manga doesn't matter if is a newbie or a veteran.

But why does it matter if you're selling enough to be successful in a less popular magazine if you're not selling enough to be a popular series in wsj. If they lowered their standards to what sells as good as less popular series by other magazines they'd be running a bunch of series with meh popularity when they could be trying for a way bigger hit.

Isn't just as easy as "try again", there's a reason why so many popular authors that started on Jump never had anything more in the magazine, it's because the system, they want to treat a author that gave a lot of money to them like they treat a newbie that just started now, put these authors again under the pressure of having to go well in surveys and sell a certain amount of copies, if not maybe you will get 30 chapters and bye bye, seriously, who would want to get back after this?

Why are they obligated to run an unsuccessful series? Why should a series selling poorly by a veteran be treated differently then a series selling poorly by a newbie, they'd both be selling poorly and taking up space in the magazine? The Money being spent and made is the same.

It's how Shonen Jump works but isn't because they're the number 1 of that it makes the best system because even Shonen Jump is slowly changing and lowering their standards of sales.

Why are they so above the other magazines and have more hits then them constantly then if not for their system which is different from those magazines that sell less?

 

[Aeneas]

The whole point isn't about cancelling what is failing, but the whole ruthless practice of Shonen Jump regarding veterans, and what is a failure depends a lot, the thing with SJ is that they're like a slave of their own system, you can sell more than enough to survive well in any other manga magazine, but if you're not doing well in the rankings/surveys they just cancel your manga doesn't matter if is a newbie or a veteran.

Isn't just as easy as "try again", there's a reason why so many popular authors that started on Jump never had anything more in the magazine, it's because the system, they want to treat a author that gave a lot of money to them like they treat a newbie that just started now, put these authors again under the pressure of having to go well in surveys and sell a certain amount of copies, if not maybe you will get 30 chapters and bye bye, seriously, who would want to get back after this?

[Togashi cackling in the corner]