Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Rain Spectre]

The whole point isn't about cancelling what is failing, but the whole ruthless practice of Shonen Jump regarding veterans, and what is a failure depends a lot, the thing with SJ is that they're like a slave of their own system, you can sell more than enough to survive well in any other manga magazine, but if you're not doing well in the rankings/surveys they just cancel your manga doesn't matter if is a newbie or a veteran.

Isn't just as easy as "try again", there's a reason why so many popular authors that started on Jump never had anything more in the magazine, it's because the system, they want to treat a author that gave a lot of money to them like they treat a newbie that just started now, put these authors again under the pressure of having to go well in surveys and sell a certain amount of copies, if not maybe you will get 30 chapters and bye bye, seriously, who would want to get back after this?

It's how Shonen Jump works but isn't because they're the number 1 of that it makes the best system because even Shonen Jump is slowly changing and lowering their standards of sales.



You don't really get, i'm not talking about SJ publishing veterans for years just because a name, if the manga really doesn't sell, they're gonna be cancelled or quickly ended even with the author being well known, the thing is Shonen Jump system is naturally a bad fit for veterans, it forces SJ to be ruthless with authors that gave them money and popularity just because the series isn't selling at the standards that they created or because isn't getting enough votes, Shonen Jump has a long history of bad and disrespectful treatment with their big names because of this "ultra competitive" envoirment they created, to the point where you can have the crazy talk about Masashi Kishimoto possibly being cancelled because isn't "selling that much" or isn't "doing so well in the rankings".

Your logic about "failing" is nothing more than something based on how Shonen Jump works and their standard, not how the rest of the magazines works and their standards to what is or not a failure.

Jump's "standards of sales" dropped because of industry market shifts and means of consumption continuing to drift away from the magazines themselves, it did not drop because "the system did not work".

 

[Paze]

No. Just stop complaining the manga is getting pushed before its first two volumes come out and that he's getting "special treatment".
If its a dud, we are all aware that WSJ will stop pushing it.

If they still push it despite it being a total failure, then yeah sure. Then we all can cry that WSJ is giving him "special treatment" at that point.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 5, 2019 ---

I wasn't complaining. I just brought it up because you said he should get special treatment and be allowed to run longer even if it isn't working at first.

 

[KennyKuro]

I'm aware that Shibuya made a summary/highlight about the interview between Horikoshi and Kubo but Edo has decided to translate the interview completely!


PD: Horikoshi is me irl

 

[Leoat12]

No. It should have its perks.
Kishimoto serialized Naruto for 15 years with hardly any breaks, became one of three pillars of his generation, became one of the reasons what pushed manga and anime to became mainstream worldwide aka a reason why forums like this exist, brought in SO MUCH revenue for the magazine and the manga and anime industry as a whole.

Series like MHA would not be so mainstream outside of Japan if it wasn't for series like Naruto pushing boundaries and becoming mainstream at a time when the world was still not fully connected.

If any mangaka deserves perks, its mangaka like Kishimoto.

He is not serializing Naruto, he is serializing another series completely different. A series must be judged by its quality only not by the name of the author. Let's make an exercise: let's suppose that series X had the same terrible rankings Samurai 8 has, would we be discussing whether would be cancelled or not? It would be in the chop block already without question, the volume sales wouldn't matter because it would be terrible anyway. Don't you realize that everybody here is just clinging to Kishimoto name and hope that it will save the series from doom? This is not right, it is like a spoiled child clinging to his rich parents his entire life.

His perks are there already, he will get money from Naruto his entire life, job well done, now it is another series and even for the respect I have for him, I will judge the series fair and square. That's what the magazine readers are doing, people who have the patience and passion to vote for the magazine doesn't do this for fun only.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 5, 2019 ---

Anyway, I will end this discussion here, tired of it already.

 

[Serinox]

they both still have their 00s series still running whereas Jump ended the last of it this year

You are technically correct, but you make it sound like that makes up a huge portion of their line-up. Sunday has one series from the 00s remaining, and Magazine has two series remaining, and they both have one series from before the 00s still running, much like Jump.

 

[Konja9]

But why does it matter if you're selling enough to be successful in a less popular magazine if you're not selling enough to be a popular series in wsj. If they lowered their standards to what sells as good as less popular series by other magazines they'd be running a bunch of series with meh popularity when they could be trying for a way bigger hit.



Why are they obligated to run an unsuccessful series? Why should a series selling poorly by a veteran be treated differently then a series selling poorly by a newbie, they'd both be selling poorly and taking up space in the magazine? The Money being spent and made is the same.



Why are they so above the other magazines and have more hits then them constantly then if not for their system which is different from those magazines that sell less?

This is true.

WSJ "competitive environment" has been pretty useful for the magazine.

They expect a higher amount of sales and popularity than other magazines (I guess WSJ probably pays more), which probably helps WSJ to compete with older magazine like Sunday or Magazine.


Don't misunderstand me, its a risky system. If they don't get popular mangas, it wouldn't work. Not to mention they need to get "new talents" all the time.

 

[Rain Spectre]

You are technically correct, but you make it sound like that makes up a huge portion of their line-up. Sunday has one series from the 00s remaining, and Magazine has two series remaining, and they both have one series from before the 00s still running, much like Jump.

Virtually all their 2000s authors are still active though. Jump meanwhile has just three (four if you count Boichi) who're over 35, everyone else are talents who joined in the 2010s.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

lol It's actually quite funny how hard is for some people here understand the concept of "RESPECT" between a magazine and editors with their known authors, seriously, it's like you guys just follow Weekly Shonen Jump and nothing more because its seems something soo strange and new, like "wooow why would Shonen Jump treats Masashi Kishimoto in a different way than all these newbies? it's so weird..."

Just giving a last example:

Orient by Ohtaka Shinobu, Shonen Magazine was able to "steal" her from Sunday after the huge success that was Magi that peaked at over 600k copies, it was a hype, they created social media accounts even before the series started, promoting the releasing of the first volume even before the first chapter and etc, so the series was released and the reception was mixed and lukewarm AF, even the Manga Editors didn't care much about it despite being made by Shinobu and currently the manga is selling like 30k ~ 50k and sometimes doesn't even appears in the Oricon top 50. So what? will Shonen Magazine do anything with it? of course not, the manga is over a year and they still promote, they still give color page from time to time for the new volumes and Orient will for sure get a anime in the future since Magazine is giving anime adaptations left and right.

I could actually give a even better example with Fumetsu no Anata e by the Koe no Katachi author but it's basically the same case as Orient.

That's the difference between the treatment by magazines and what i'm talking about, if Orient was published on Shonen Jump, it would be already cancelled or reaching the end and Shinobu's talent and time totally wasted by Jump treating her like a newbie that wasn't able to meet "Jump standards" despite not even being a failure.

Seriously, if you guys didn't get what i'm saying by this, i will end the discussion too.

Jump's "standards of sales" dropped because of industry market shifts and means of consumption continuing to drift away from the magazines themselves, it did not drop because "the system did not work".

I know, but still the fact that the system itself has to change a bit because they can't afford to be THAT ruthless anymore

 

[101nemesis]

He is not serializing Naruto, he is serializing another series completely different. A series must be judged by its quality only not by the name of the author. Let's make an exercise: let's suppose that series X had the same terrible rankings Samurai 8 has, would we be discussing whether would be cancelled or not? It would be in the chop block already without question, the volume sales wouldn't matter because it would be terrible anyway. Don't you realize that everybody here is just clinging to Kishimoto name and hope that it will save the series from doom? This is not right, it is like a spoiled child clinging to his rich parents his entire life.

And again, you're ignoring the context about which mangaka is returning. Why did RxL survive for a year? Why did Illegal Rare get a CP within the first 10 chapters only ended up eventually getting cancelled few chapters later.
S8 being in the bottom 4-5 and not getting canned is not a new occurrence nor is it wrong for it to get special treatment. A random series like Soul Catchers dwelled in the bottom for a considerable time before it got transferred. But it never got cancelled in the main magazine. Kuroko No Basket had terrible placements but still survived enough to be profitable.

Take any industry.
If a music artist's first album becomes one of the best selling albums in history, would the music label still treat that artist JUST like any other artist? Or would they automatically show more respect and "special treatment"? If a movie director's movie becomes one of the highest grossing movies of all time, would the production company not give the director more creative freedom than they would a new director? It's the simple concept of understanding and appreciating the accomplishments of an artist and giving them that extra bit of push for their return work. As a publisher, that's quite literally the basis of your relationship with who you represent.
In tennis, players like Roger Federer, Serena Williams, Rafa Nadal and Novak Djokovic get paid more money than other players to participate in tournaments because of their accomplishments irrespective of their ranks.
Your accomplishments will always be the basis of how you are treated in any industry.

And again, for the nth time. No one is saying WSJ should promote S8 if its a super dud. But stop complaining about them promoting it for its first 20 or so chapters and before the release of its 2 volumes. It's not "special treatment". It's the right kind of treatment.

 

[Leoat12]

Don't put Shonen Jump in the same level as Shonen Magazine and Shonen Sunday, we know that those two do all this, it works? No, the most successful series of one of them is just an average series at best in Jump in terms of sales. They cling to the old, get 50k and they are happy with that, Jump pursue new talents relentlessly, when they make a hit, it sells at least 300k.

It is actually hard to some people to understand that this is a business, not a charity institution.

 

[Tymano]

Don't put Shonen Jump in the same level as Shonen Magazine and Shonen Sunday, we know that those two do all this, it works? No, the most successful series of one of them is just an average series at best in Jump in terms of sales. They cling to the old, get 50k and they are happy with that, Jump pursue new talents relentlessly, when they make a hit, it sells at least 300k.

It is actually hard to some people to understand that this is a business, not a charity institution.

I think you're misunderstanding something about Magazine and Sunday, mainly that they're are clinging to veterans instead of trying to promote newbies. When it's more like they're clinging to veterans because their new talents are under performing. After all, is it worth sticking to newbies when there is a slim chance they could grow big, or to go with Veterans who have an established fan base and still have a chance to grow with new series, much like the newbies can.

 

[Leoat12]

And again, you're ignoring the context about which mangaka is returning. Why did RxL survive for a year? Why did Illegal Rare get a CP within the first 10 chapters only ended up eventually getting cancelled few chapters later.
S8 being in the bottom 4-5 and not getting canned is not a new occurrence nor is it wrong for it to get special treatment. A random series like Soul Catchers dwelled in the bottom for a considerable time before it got transferred. But it never got cancelled in the main magazine. Kuroko No Basket had terrible placements but still survived enough to be profitable.

Take any industry.
If a music artist's first album becomes one of the best selling albums in history, would the music label still treat that artist JUST like any other artist? Or would they automatically show more respect and "special treatment"? If a movie director's movie becomes one of the highest grossing movies of all time, would the production company not give the director more creative freedom than they would a new director? It's the simple concept of understanding and appreciating the accomplishments of an artist and giving them that extra bit of push for their return work. As a publisher, that's quite literally the basis of your relationship with who you represent.
In tennis, players like Roger Federer, Serena Williams, Rafa Nadal and Novak Djokovic get paid more money than other players to participate in tournaments because of their accomplishments irrespective of their ranks.
Your accomplishments will always be the basis of how you are treated in any industry.

And again, for the nth time. No one is saying WSJ should promote S8 if its a super dud. But stop complaining about them promoting it for its first 20 or so chapters and before the release of its 2 volumes. It's not "special treatment". It's the right kind of treatment.

So picking your example, it is like Samurai 8 was Roger Federer son (Roger Federer is Naruto), he is not Roger Federer, but he is his son, so people will expect that he is good at tennis and give him a lot of privilegies, but he is not Roger Federer, one in a lifetime talent, and people will get disappointed pretty quickly. That's actually the plot of a lot of series, Endeavor and Shoto, for example. Free yourself from the image of your famous dad, Samurai 8!

 

[Rain Spectre]

I think you're misunderstanding something about Magazine and Sunday, mainly that they're are clinging to veterans instead of trying to promote newbies. When it's more like they're clinging to veterans because their new talents are under performing. After all, is it worth sticking to newbies when there is a slim chance they could grow big, or to go with Veterans who have an established fan base and still have a chance to grow with new series, much like the newbies can.

Yeeeeaaahhhh...which magazine is consistently dominating the Top 10 every year?

 

[Serinox]

Don't put Shonen Jump in the same level as Shonen Magazine and Shonen Sunday, we know that those two do all this, it works? No, the most successful series of one of them is just an average series at best in Jump in terms of sales.

472k volume sales is an average Jump series at best?

 

[ruggia]

lol It's actually quite funny how hard is for some people here understand the concept of "RESPECT" between a magazine and editors with their known authors, seriously, it's like you guys just follow Weekly Shonen Jump and nothing more because its seems something soo strange and new, like "wooow why would Shonen Jump treats Masashi Kishimoto in a different way than all these newbies? it's so weird..."

Just giving a last example:

Orient by Ohtaka Shinobu, Shonen Magazine was able to "steal" her from Sunday after the huge success that was Magi that peaked at over 600k copies, it was a hype, they created social media accounts even before the series started, promoting the releasing of the first volume even before the first chapter and etc, so the series was released and the reception was mixed and lukewarm AF, even the Manga Editors didn't care much about it despite being made by Shinobu and currently the manga is selling like 30k ~ 50k and sometimes doesn't even appears in the Oricon top 50. So what? will Shonen Magazine do anything with it? of course not, the manga is over a year and they still promote, they still give color page from time to time for the new volumes and Orient will for sure get a anime in the future since Magazine is giving anime adaptations left and right.

I could actually give a even better example with Fumetsu no Anata e by the Koe no Katachi author but it's basically the same case as Orient.

That's the difference between the treatment by magazines and what i'm talking about, if Orient was published on Shonen Jump, it would be already cancelled or reaching the end and Shinobu's talent and time totally wasted by Jump treating her like a newbie that wasn't able to meet "Jump standards" despite not even being a failure.

Seriously, if you guys didn't get what i'm saying by this, i will end the discussion too.

I know, but still the fact that the system itself has to change a bit because they can't afford to be THAT ruthless anymore

Fumetsu and Orient aren't being kept alive thanks to "respect", they simply are performing good enough to not be in danger at WSM. There are plenty of series performing worse than them that can bite the dust before either of them are in danger. WSM seems to have slowed down the flow of new releases in the recent months to adjust to the recent stability of the magazine, but it's not like those series are receiving special treatments.

"Respect" didn't spare Asaki Masashi from getting Black Out axed at just 4 volumes despite coming from the successes of Shibatora and Psychometrer Eiji. Yamamoto Kazuki despite having a 62 volume run with God Hand Teru still got Takara no Zen axed at 3 volumes. This Man still had to wrap up at 3 volumes even with Megumi Kouji's history with Bloody Monday. Makoto Raiku despite being a star imported from Sunday wasn't immune to Vector Ball getting axed, nor were Nakayama (Urataro) and Kodaka (Danganrompa)'s Gamblers' Paradise.

Now if we are talking about Daiku no Hatou in Sunday it's a difference story but I don't think anyone wants to see that happening in any magazine.

 

[101nemesis]

So picking your example, it is like Samurai 8 was Roger Federer son (Roger Federer is Naruto), he is not Roger Federer, but he is his son, so people will expect that he is good at tennis and give him a lot of privilegies, but he is not Roger Federer, one in a lifetime talent, and people will get disappointed pretty quickly. That's actually the plot of a lot of series, Endeavor and Shoto, for example. Free yourself from the image of his famous dad, Samurai 8!

Gotta hand it to you about how you so easily ignored my examples of how veterans are respected and treated in various industries based what they've accomplished across their careers because that negates your argument.
But sure, go ahead and fixate on Roger Federer and his kid apparently, which doesn't even make sense.

It is actually hard to some people to understand that this is a business, not a charity institution.

Yeah, I'm done with this topic.
Your comment is hilarious. If you think a 15 year old veteran deserves the same treatment as a newbie.
Let me know how you feel 15 years from now when you've settled down in a company for many years, worked day and night, made sacrifices, hardly saw your family or spent time with them only to be told that you'll get the same treatment as someone who joined yesterday. Let me know if you'll feel respected enough then.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 5, 2019 ---

Awww yeah, everybody. 1000 pages is a done deal at this rate.

We actually got on track few weeks ago. We should actually aim for 1500 while we are at it.

 

[Rain Spectre]

472k volume sales is an average Jump series at best?

Leonat was exaggerating for effect.

Fumetsu and Orient aren't being kept alive thanks to "respect", they simply are performing good enough to not be in danger at WSM. There are plenty of series performing worse than them that can bite the dust before either of them are in danger. WSM seems to have slowed down the flow of new releases in the recent months to adjust to the recent stability of the magazine, but it's not like those series are receiving special treatments.

"Respect" didn't spare Asaki Masashi from getting Black Out axed at just 4 volumes despite coming from the successes of Shibatora and Psychometrer Eiji. Yamamoto Kazuki despite having a 62 volume run with God Hand Teru still got Takara no Zen axed at 3 volumes. This Man still had to wrap up at 3 volumes even with Megumi Kouji's history with Bloody Monday. Makoto Raiku despite being a star imported from Sunday wasn't immune to Vector Ball getting axed, nor were Nakayama (Urataro) and Kodaka (Danganrompa)'s Gamblers' Paradise.

Now if we are talking about Daiku no Hatou in Sunday it's a difference story but I don't think anyone wants to see that happening in any magazine.

Didn't To Your Eternity get awards? The series might not be the best-selling, but if it makes money and has critical acclaim, then that's the reason it's stayed afloat. Kinda like Dr Stone, go figure.

Gotta hand it to you about how you so easily ignored my examples of how veterans are respected and treated in various industries based what they've accomplished across their careers because that negates your argument.
But sure, go ahead and fixate on Roger Federer and his kid apparently, which doesn't even make sense.



Yeah, I'm done with this topic.
Your comment is hilarious. If you think a 15 year old veteran deserves the same treatment as a newbie.
Let me know how you feel 15 years from now when you've settled down in a company for many years, worked day and night, made sacrifices, hardly saw your family or spent time with them only to be told that you'll get the same treatment as someone who joined yesterday. Let me know if you'll feel respected enough then.

But they didn't treat him like a newbie. Again, they made a huge ass deal about S8, and when the series didn't give them what they wanted, they stopped.

Again, what do you want Shueisha to do? Basically give Kishi free reign to do what he wants regardless of what readers think of it?

 

[Kharthas]

If Jump is willing to cancel a manga from a veteran like Kishimoto it might have the adverse effect of scaring away both prospective new authors as well as former veterans from the magazine, all while soiling Jumps reputation at the same time.

To me it's the opposite. If Jump is willing to cancel Kishimoto's manga because it performs badly, it sends the message that they treat a series by its own merit and not by the name behind it. If I were a prospective author, I would find encouragement in the fact that my manga had a fair chance going up against something made by a veteran big shot.

It shouldn't scare away former veterans either. They can do it once as newbies, surely they have the confidence to do it a second time. It's not like they're strangers to the intense schedules and fierce competition in Jump.

There are other ways to show respect to a veteran author besides keeping his series alive beyond expiration date. Giving him more creativity freedom and less editorial interference is an example.

 

[Konja9]

lol It's actually quite funny how hard is for some people here understand the concept of "RESPECT" between a magazine and editors with their known authors, seriously, it's like you guys just follow Weekly Shonen Jump and nothing more because its seems something soo strange and new, like "wooow why would Shonen Jump treats Masashi Kishimoto in a different way than all these newbies? it's so weird..."

Just giving a last example:

Orient by Ohtaka Shinobu, Shonen Magazine was able to "steal" her from Sunday after the huge success that was Magi that peaked at over 600k copies, it was a hype, they created social media accounts even before the series started, promoting the releasing of the first volume even before the first chapter and etc, so the series was released and the reception was mixed and lukewarm AF, even the Manga Editors didn't care much about it despite being made by Shinobu and currently the manga is selling like 30k ~ 50k and sometimes doesn't even appears in the Oricon top 50. So what? will Shonen Magazine do anything with it? of course not, the manga is over a year and they still promote, they still give color page from time to time for the new volumes and Orient will for sure get a anime in the future since Magazine is giving anime adaptations left and right.

I could actually give a even better example with Fumetsu no Anata e by the Koe no Katachi author but it's basically the same case as Orient.

That's the difference between the treatment by magazines and what i'm talking about, if Orient was published on Shonen Jump, it would be already cancelled or reaching the end and Shinobu's talent and time totally wasted by Jump treating her like a newbie that wasn't able to meet "Jump standards" despite not even being a failure.

Seriously, if you guys didn't get what i'm saying by this, i will end the discussion too.

I understand your point, but I find your example a little weird.

I mean you speak about "RESPECT" between authors and magazine, but Ohtaka Shinobu abandoned Sunday (probably because she has a better offer).

WSJ has high expectives for sales, so they also choose what is more profitable for them.

If Ohtaka Shinobu or other author accept to work for the Jump, they probably know the risks.

 

[Leoat12]

Gotta hand it to you about how you so easily ignored my examples of how veterans are respected and treated in various industries based what they've accomplished across their careers because that negates your argument.
But sure, go ahead and fixate on Roger Federer and his kid apparently, which doesn't even make sense.

I didn't ignore, I'm talking about the series, not its author. I will not say that a series is good and deserve to survive because it is made by Kishimoto, Oda or whoever. The magazine can have the respect for Kishimoto they want, if the readers don't buy the series... Well... Respect doesn't pay the bills in the end. He will probably have infinite chances on Jump, but when it is time to say to move on, Jump should do that. But this is not the time yet, let's see how well the volumes will go, if sells 50k or less things will start to get ugly with its rankings, people will start to wonder why the series is still in the magazine despite the author, that's how it works. I really would like to live a in a perfect world where the authors have infinite chapters to show their work, but real world doesn't work like that. If it continues like that Shueisha will have to have the courage to say the bad news to Kishimoto.