Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Ctkk]

Alright I lied, I'm back. Did you read the whole interview? Kubo clearly said "If I were asked the same question (what is your strength) I'd reply the same thing even now." Doesn't mention theme, style, story, anything at all. Those are basically landmines for the interview. Since Horikoshi was being so humble and modest that he was self-depricating about whatever the subject was, if Kubo started touching the topic of story Horikoshi would inevitably say something too damaging to the series' reputation. I mean, the moment Deku was mentioned Horikoshi immediately jumped to say that Deku was boring and he didn't know what he was doing designing him like that. Regardless of whether or not it was true Kubo must have decided to avoid potential landmines in the conversation.

I don't the fact that Bleach has good style means that Kubo was not talented in terms of story, theme, characters, composition, etc. You seem to be implying that Kubo's great style means that he would only care about art in judging what makes a manga good.

Praise can be generic but it's never been, in a split-second "Yup you're good at art." And never mentioning any other elements. NO other elements.

Yeah, I've read the entire thing. In the past Horikoshi was worrying about what was his forte and Kubo told him it was art. And now he still thinks it's his art. That doesn't really say anything about writing one way or the other. What was he gonna say? 'Oh, your forte is everything'. That'd be a non-answer.

You're just being ridiculous now with the conspiracy theories. This is just a chill a interview for a databook, not some kinda 4D chess ploy. Horikoshi is being self-deprecating like he always is with everything. What could he say that he hasn't said already? He's constantly putting himself down about everything everywhere and I have yet to see the series' reputation take a hit because of it. And Kubo praises mostly the detail of the art because that's what he finds most impressive since he himself finds it the most difficult.

 

[NeeNeen]

Leave it to Endeavor to make something like 'it's not like you insignificant gnats really matter' sound inspirational.

Also, that kid from TSS can't play dumb to save his life (literally). Really expected better from someone studying the intelligence scroll or whatever it's called.

 

[supercow297]

Also, on "all praise in these interviews is generic":

Kubo answers with a doubt "Art. For sure art is what you're good at." And neglects to mention ANYTHING else.

Meanwhile:

1. Gotouge editor interview: "I asked Gotoge-sensei how he’s able to write such interesting lines, and he said he had actually been reading books on how to write novels"
2. Miura on Umino Chica, in a discussion with other mangaka: "You know, a genius sculptor might say that to sculpt all you need to do is look at a rock and try to bring something out of it. This is the same sort of thing."
3. Hoshi on Umino Chica, same discussion: "What I think is that Umino-sensei is really good in what she picks up when researching a certain subject."
   Team JUMPwith Tabata: "I thought making the good characters who hadn’t been featured much into enemies in this current arc was brilliant."
4. Akutami Gege on Yu Yu Hakusho: "It's a way to make your story original and I love that! [...] The Shinobu Sensui arc was very innovative and made me consider the concept of justice. [...] I was shocked"
5. Kishimoto with Oda: "Okay, I’m not saying this because Oda’s here in front of me, but I like all of it! (laughs) But I am very interested in the Spring-Spring Fruit abilities Bellamy has and his personality is very interesting as well. Although, I would have to say Chopper’s backstory! Things like his first time meeting with Hiruluk, or the cherry blossom snow falling as he leaves the island, that really gets to you!"

etc... I tried to find interviews between more than one mangaka to replicate the same scenario, but you get the point... saying "Also I don't know what interviews have you read, but in the ones I've seen the praise is usually the same generic stuff there's in this one." is completely senseless.

 

[NeeNeen]

So for people reading Haikyuu, does this final arc seem like it's going to be a long one that could potentially last over a year, or does it seem like it's suddenly coming to a conclusion in like 1 or 2 more volumes? Imagine how crazy that'd be if everyone was trying to figure out what'd end first between WNL, Neverland, Kimetsu, and Yuuna, but then Haikyuu comes out of nowhere and ends before them all.

It still feels like an epilogue to me.

They could write a whole story arc about both Hinata and Kageyama participating in the Olympics, but that would mean basically starting the manga from scratch. They haven't made any attempt to introduce new characters so far, so it doesn't feel like that's what the mangaka is going for... I could be wrong though.

 

[101nemesis]

Man, way to stretch a simple, genuine interview between two manga artists who respect each other just to try and find something wrong with it to maybe fault Horikoshi for no reason whatsoever.
Props to you for pulling this one out of the rear.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Also, on "all praise in these interviews is generic":

Kubo answers with a doubt "Art. For sure art is what you're good at." And neglects to mention ANYTHING else.

Meanwhile:

1. Gotouge editor interview: "I asked Gotoge-sensei how he’s able to write such interesting lines, and he said he had actually been reading books on how to write novels"
2. Miura on Umino Chica, in a discussion with other mangaka: "You know, a genius sculptor might say that to sculpt all you need to do is look at a rock and try to bring something out of it. This is the same sort of thing."
3. Hoshi on Umino Chica, same discussion: "What I think is that Umino-sensei is really good in what she picks up when researching a certain subject."
   Team JUMPwith Tabata: "I thought making the good characters who hadn’t been featured much into enemies in this current arc was brilliant."
4. Akutami Gege on Yu Yu Hakusho: "It's a way to make your story original and I love that! [...] The Shinobu Sensui arc was very innovative and made me consider the concept of justice. [...] I was shocked"
5. Kishimoto with Oda: "Okay, I’m not saying this because Oda’s here in front of me, but I like all of it! (laughs) But I am very interested in the Spring-Spring Fruit abilities Bellamy has and his personality is very interesting as well. Although, I would have to say Chopper’s backstory! Things like his first time meeting with Hiruluk, or the cherry blossom snow falling as he leaves the island, that really gets to you!"

etc... I tried to find interviews between more than one mangaka to replicate the same scenario, but you get the point... saying "Also I don't know what interviews have you read, but in the ones I've seen the praise is usually the same generic stuff there's in this one." is completely senseless.

Jesus, all of this because you have problems with Boku no Hero Academia? is like Babymetal talking about anything related to Souma lol

 

[supercow297]

>Horikoshi says to Kubo he doesn't really know what is his forte

>Kubo says his art

Like i said, Kubo is a "art" guy, he's crazy about art, style, fashion and stuff related to it, so is just normal that the thing he praises about Horikoshi is his art. Honestly, it just sounds like you're making negative interpretations for the sake of it because you don't like BNHA much.

It's not just me making negative interpretations, even from a neutral standpoint there are many examples of Kubo saying generic things because he doesn't have much to go into detail with, Horikoshi shitting all over his own work and then Kubo doing damage control.

Besides, all of you are saying "Kubo loves art, style this style that", when Kubo himself says
Kubo: I often plan scenes around dialogue I want to write, and create manga in order to depict those scenes—or something like that.
At heart, he's also a storyteller. You can't avoid this by saying "MUH STYIL".

Did you read the interview properly?
Kubo mentioned how complex and detailed Horikoshi's backgrounds are [...] Horikoshi even joked about how his assistants were complaining and ask how much longer would that arc last.
The pipes weren't an example for the complexity of his characters. [...]

Yes, the main focus for Kubo on Horikoshi's art was the detail overall, as well as the backgrounds. Obviously pipes aren't an example of character complexity, where did you even get that from? He also said some generic "your characters can hold there own!" But never specified what exactly. It was just a blanket "Ganbatte ne, Horikoshi-kun!" statement.

You're just being ridiculous now with the conspiracy theories. This is just a chill a interview for a databook [...]

There's no conspiracy theory. I just find the fact that all Kubo can praise is the art is hilarious.

 

[Koni]

Also, on "all praise in these interviews is generic":

Kubo answers with a doubt "Art. For sure art is what you're good at." And neglects to mention ANYTHING else.

Meanwhile:

1. Gotouge editor interview: "I asked Gotoge-sensei how he’s able to write such interesting lines, and he said he had actually been reading books on how to write novels"
2. Miura on Umino Chica, in a discussion with other mangaka: "You know, a genius sculptor might say that to sculpt all you need to do is look at a rock and try to bring something out of it. This is the same sort of thing."
3. Hoshi on Umino Chica, same discussion: "What I think is that Umino-sensei is really good in what she picks up when researching a certain subject."
   Team JUMPwith Tabata: "I thought making the good characters who hadn’t been featured much into enemies in this current arc was brilliant."
4. Akutami Gege on Yu Yu Hakusho: "It's a way to make your story original and I love that! [...] The Shinobu Sensui arc was very innovative and made me consider the concept of justice. [...] I was shocked"
5. Kishimoto with Oda: "Okay, I’m not saying this because Oda’s here in front of me, but I like all of it! (laughs) But I am very interested in the Spring-Spring Fruit abilities Bellamy has and his personality is very interesting as well. Although, I would have to say Chopper’s backstory! Things like his first time meeting with Hiruluk, or the cherry blossom snow falling as he leaves the island, that really gets to you!"

etc... I tried to find interviews between more than one mangaka to replicate the same scenario, but you get the point... saying "Also I don't know what interviews have you read, but in the ones I've seen the praise is usually the same generic stuff there's in this one." is completely senseless.

I don't think that means we should value Kishimoto's praise of Horikoshi's art any less. Especially, because... it's Kubo. Regardless of what you think of Bleach's story, a lot of people regard him as a seriously good artist. If Kubo - the man who's art played a key role in Bleach's immense success - of all people is telling you that your art is amazing, that has got to mean a lot. Especially to someone like Horikoshi.

 

[Thores]

Alright I lied, I'm back. Did you read the whole interview? Kubo clearly said "If I were asked the same question (what is your strength) I'd reply the same thing even now." Doesn't mention theme, style, story, anything at all. Those are basically landmines for the interview. Since Horikoshi was being so humble and modest that he was self-depricating about whatever the subject was, if Kubo started touching the topic of story Horikoshi would inevitably say something too damaging to the series' reputation. I mean, the moment Deku was mentioned Horikoshi immediately jumped to say that Deku was boring and he didn't know what he was doing designing him like that. Regardless of whether or not it was true Kubo must have decided to avoid potential landmines in the conversation.

I don't the fact that Bleach has good style means that Kubo was not talented in terms of story, theme, characters, composition, etc. You seem to be implying that Kubo's great style means that he would only care about art in judging what makes a manga good.

Praise can be generic but it's never been, in a split-second "Yup you're good at art." And never mentioning any other elements. NO other elements.

Horikoshi can be good at more than one thing, and "the thing I like the very most about your work is your art" can be a true statement at the same time. You're really stretching the narrative of the interview to fit your own perspective here.

 

[supercow297]

between two manga artists who respect each other

LOL. Even if this is true, at least we know from this interview that once again, Horikoshi doesn't even respect himself.

Jesus, all of this because you have problems with Boku no Hero Academia? is like Babymetal talking about anything related to Souma lol

So, me spending effort to prove someone's point wrong is shut down as "lol you did so much work". Great job.

 

[Ryuusei]

Did you read the whole interview? Horikoshi said his own characters didn't have the same impact as Kubo's due to Kubo's great sense of style. Kubo said a quick "no, no your characters are good too" and then immediately is first example of the good art in BNHA is the pipes in the joint training arc. And Kubo's main praise for Horikoshi's art is detail, aka lots of crosshatching and complexity of design, never style or sense or presentation.

I'm done with this topic, at this point anyone can endlessly create their own unique judgments from the interview. I've stated my interpretation.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2019 ---

Read any isekai with technically good art and tell me praising the series for "good art" implies that the themes are included.

If you got done, imagine us then. The fact that you picked a single paragraph from an interview from two authors that are friends and dissected their words and twisted them so they can fit your own view of a certain material is downright funny. No one is holding you back from disliking whatever you dislike, but talking like your statement is truer than the rest, sorry to pop your bubble, but that ain't gonna do it.

 

[supercow297]

I don't think that means we should value Kishimoto's praise of Horikoshi's art any less. Especially, because... it's Kubo. Regardless of what you think of Bleach's story, a lot of people regard him as a seriously good artist. If Kubo - the man who's art played a key role in Bleach's immense success - of all people is telling you that your art is amazing, that has got to mean a lot. Especially to someone like Horikoshi.

*Kubo.

Yes, Kubo is a good artist. But again he had NOTHING to say about story, themes, composition, style, characters. His favorite character is Kaminari and he says "As for me, I like Denki Kaminari. He plays a very amusing role in the story"
Draw your own interpretations from that stunning praise.

Horikoshi can be good at more than one thing, and "the thing I like the very most about your work is your art" can be a true statement at the same time. You're really stretching the narrative of the interview to fit your own perspective here.

That's the thing, context matters here. Kubo didn't think about it, consider the various great aspects of BNHA, and say "the thing I like the very most [...]" This is what happened, stated by Horikoshi himself.

“I have no idea what my forte is.” You immediately replied, “Art, of course,”
Draw from that your own conclusions.

If you got done, imagine us then. The fact that you picked a single paragraph from an interview from two authors that are friends and dissected their words and twisted them so they can fit your own view of a certain material is downright funny. No one is holding you back from disliking whatever you dislike, but talking like your statement is truer than the rest, sorry to pop your bubble, but that ain't gonna do it.

They're friends? LOL
Kubo: Yeah, I have no memory of chatting with you that night. [laughs]

 

[101nemesis]

LOL. Even if this is true, at least we know from this interview that once again, Horikoshi doesn't even respect himself.

?
You're saying that because Horikoshi lowered his achievements and talent when talking to Kubo who is his senior and one of Horikoshi's influences, that he somehow doesn't respect himself?
Is this the first time you've seen this method of someone showing respect to another they looked up to?

 

[Aipom626]

Wait, what is that Taisei ending....? Was that just a comedy gag or this manga is taking a turn?

It seemed comedic in nature, but I'm really curious to see who or what it is. I could imagine it being Haga, but knowing what this author is capable of pulling out of thin air, I guess I can't say for sure there won't be some sort of shogi demon lol. Furthermore, it looks like Double Taisei won't be ending next week either!

 

[Thores]

That's the thing, context matters here. Kubo didn't think about it, consider the various great aspects of BNHA, and say "the thing I like the very most [...]" This is what happened, stated by Horikoshi himself.

“I have no idea what my forte is.” You immediately replied, “Art, of course,”
Draw from that your own conclusions.

Here's my conclusion:

Horikoshi's art is really good.

Sometimes it's not that deep!

 

[Koni]

I wonder when the next poll's gonna come up and what it's gonna be about, I enjoyed seeing the discussions on those.

 

[supercow297]

I seriously don't get why all of you are so triggered. If you're just mad that I'm spamming and that's all then I'll stop. But if so I'll do this for my own enjoyment first:

1. Well, Kubo-sensei’s characters can fill a page with their presence alone. Since I don’t have the artistic skill to pull that off, I put a lot of detail into my backgrounds to compensate.
2. Every week of that arc, my assistants would ask me, “How much longer will this last?” [laughs] I needed a space in which every character could flaunt their skills, and that was my solution.
3. But recently, I created Hawks because I needed someone to fulfill a specific role for the sake of advancing the plot.
4. Exactly. By the way, Hawks’ look still hadn’t been finalized at the storyboarding phase.
5. Kubo: You sure love cramming in those details.
   Horikoshi: They help cover up any blemishes and make sure nothing seems off.
6. I failed to make Mirio come across as an interesting character the first time he showed up.
7. Yup. Furthermore, his debut scene ended before I had a chance to show his emotional range, which meant he was reduced to being a plot device.
8. I designed Deku to be plain and average on purpose, but now I’m not sure why I made him so boring.

INB4 "You're cherrypicking!!" Yes I cherrypicked roughly ten points. That's a lot of cherries from just one interview...
INB4 "Horikoshi is self-deprecating so it doesn't count!!" There is a grain of truth in his doubts for sure. You can't possibly believe that his self-criticisms pop out of thin air.

Although I will say I unironically appreciate that Horikoshi is so humble despite his great amount of success.
" Since there are people out there who are several times more amazing than I am, I can’t get let myself get cocky. "

?
You're saying that because Horikoshi lowered his achievements and talent when talking to Kubo who is his senior and one of Horikoshi's influences, that he somehow doesn't respect himself?
Is this the first time you've seen this method of someone showing respect to another they looked up to?

No, Horikoshi clearly doesn't respect himself. See above. Also half of his replies during the interview. Stuff like "Like me, he struggles to make progress because he’s always doubting himself." nonstop. Just once is whatever but nonstop.

Here's my conclusion:

"Horikoshi's art is really good. Sometimes it's not that deep!"

/r/SuicideByWords LOL. Or, more like you murdered Hori instead. (jk ofc, I know it's two different topics.)

k i'm out

 

[Ctkk]

There's no conspiracy theory. I just find the fact that all Kubo can praise is the art is hilarious.

The problem is that this is factually wrong if you read the entire interview without twisting it to absurd lengths like you're doing. Art is what he praises the most, not the only thing is he praises. Horikoshi also praises Kubo mostly for his art as well.

 

[101nemesis]

“I have no idea what my forte is.” You immediately replied, “Art, of course,”
Draw from that your own conclusions.

The most basic and common conclusion is that Kubo who is an artist and well known for his art told someone, who is also an artist, who was struggling that their greatest strength is their art.
Very few will twist the words Kubo said into the ways you seem to be doing.

It's quite simply like a musician telling another musician, your music is your greatest strength. What you're doing that now is twist that and say "Oh he did not mention anything about lyrical ability" and HENCE THEREFORE his lyrics are bad.
Just stop, please.

 

[OniluapL]

Alright, so:

This is Urasawa and Eguchi talking about Otomo, which, you know, is a legendary mangaka and stuff. What do they mention? The art and pacing (visual pacing, that is) (https://mangabrog.wordpress.com/201...-about-manga-in-the-70s-and-80s-mostly-otomo/)

Urasawa: I think I’d probably seen Otomo’s work somewhere before then, but it was after he started drawing with that linework in “Fireball” that I started remembering him.
Eguchi: To be honest, I didn’t think much of the story in “Fireball”. It’s all in the art. The visual intensity.
Urasawa: That, plus the way “Fireball” just goes on plunking down scene after scene without narration. It was different from the conventional rhythm in Japanese manga and more like something lifted from Kubrick or Peckinpah — the stuff that we considered hip, right there in a manga.
Eguchi: Otomo really did draw manga totally unlike anyone before him. Where manga artists back in the day would draw action lines, he wouldn’t. Or, like, the way he’d draw things under shadows. There were a ton of discoveries for me in terms of how to draw things to make them look a certain way.

This is Kishimoto talking about Hiroaki Samura, who he idolizes. What does he mention? Art. (https://mangabrog.wordpress.com/201...with-fawning-fanboy-masashi-kishimoto-naruto/)

Kishimoto: Anyway, I was blown away in university in a way I hadn’t been since Akira. I mean, that artwork! It felt so far away from anything I was capable of. The arms and legs especially. Afternoon had this section where artists were given a page to themselves, and I still remember being just floored by this character sitting in a chair that you drew there.

Samura is also praising Kishimoto's drawing ability, but it must mean he didn't think of anything else, right?

Samura: You know, though: I only started reading Naruto midway through the series, but you struck me as someone with a really high basic drawing ability.

Taiyo Matsumoto talking to Daisuke Igarashi, and the focus is, again, on drawings: (https://mangabrog.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/24/)

Taiyo Matsumoto: I feel like you kind of came out of nowhere. I’ve been drawing manga for about 25 years, but you really blew me away. I first heard your name around the time Witches came out, and at first I thought you were still new to the scene. This guy is just incredible, I thought—it was so polished and everything. I was a little worried for myself.
Daisuke Igarashi: I found out about you when I was a student. Your work was being featured in a magazine or something, and seeing your manga cover designs I thought to myself, “This is really good, this is my kind of art”, but I figured I would probably be influenced by it if I read it, though. That fear kind of trumped everything else, so I avoided your work for a long time. (laugh) Nowadays I actually read your work just to steal from it, though.
Matsumoto: I find I can’t tell who you’ve been influenced by when I look at your work. With most manga artists you can see that, Oh, this artist’s a Katsuhiro Otomo fan, this one’s a Yumi Tada fan. With your art, though, I can’t tell; you leave me wondering, “What artist is this guy into?” You’re original, I guess is what I’m saying. Hmmm… it feels kind of like you’ve come to manga via painting.


I could go on, but anyway. Mangaka are focused on art and drawing ability, they are artists and they think of what they do differently than us. Kubo praising Horikoshi art is not a bad thing, just the opposite. It's what they tend to look for.