Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[LuckyJim]

I don't really care to continue this topic at all but.... I find it funny how 99% of the people who are complaining think that Yuuna being extremely ecchi is anything new for WSJ when nipples have been shown in Jump series for decades now lol

I think it's related to what Ryuusei said, it's not so much that the content is new, but the fact that more people are able to voice their opinions on the matter as well as increased discussion and changing attitudes on what is and isn't considered acceptable. Sure it's been going on for years, but the way public opinions change means that some people might decide that it shouldn't continue. For a long time, it was considered acceptable for gay men to be depicted as overly buff guys with effeminate mannerisms who would pursue and harass male characters who were very much not okay with that sort of attention. What do you think someone would say if a character like that showed up now?

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

You can always see how ill-informed those people are when Yuuna is being published for almost 4 years with chapters filled with 100x lewder stuff happening but is a color page with a funny gimmick that brings the rage, they dont even know what is being published on Jump XD

And how can you even take seriously any argument about kids possibly having contact with this when you have Chainsaw Man being published there?

 

[animeexpert]

Poor yuuna author, gets bashed for doing his job in a genre that does it for decades.

Btw for the people reading Tokyo grind horror channel, even that it isn't translated. What do you expect from this manga to get a serialization in wsj.

Interesting villains
An extra emo male character will seal the deal

 

[NeeNeen]

Regardless of whether or not the Yuuna nipple easter egg should be considered an outrage, the fact that it's in a magazine that 10 year olds can grab off the shelf without adult supervision feels... irresponsible of WSJ, at the very least. Even if you think it's a funny gimmick in a vacuum, Yuuna is sharing pages with series that are straight up marketed to kids, like One Piece and MHA. That's the main thing that weirds me out about it.

It's funny you think that a 10 year old's mind will be damaged by seeing nipples, but not by watching women be put in compromising positions every chapter.

Personally, I'd much rather my kid watch Jigokuraku in all its nippled glory than something like Yuuna when it comes to females. Because the women in Jigokuraku are naked, but they are still strong and fighting and acting like human beings with a mind of their own. They are still people who demand respect. In Yuuna, the nipples are censored, but the rest of the woman is presented like a piece of meat.

(I wouldn't actually let a little kid read Jigokuraku because it's pretty gruesome, but that's another discussion.)

 

[Halloween]

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

 

[animeexpert]

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

Medaka box (debatable cuz of *TITS*)
JJK
Bleach
Chainsawman
Act-age
The promised neverland
Black clover
One piece (debatable after time skip)
Kny (the love pillar is done an ironic way, so it make sense for her dressed like that)

I cant put drstone even tho they have important / strong female casts. They are too sexualized but it still make sense cuz they are in an stone-age. Heavy Material aren't needed since it's mostly been summer/spring

 

[LuckyJim]

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

I think in general, the representation of female characters has improved, and has actually been under appreciated for a while. Obviously, stereotypes exist for a reason, but good female characters have been a part of Shonen Jump for a while, Stone Ocean, for example, had a decently sized female cast, with characters who were just as competent, as well as crass, as their male predecessors. Beyond that though, I think non-combatant characters also shouldn't be under appreciated either, Miranda Lotto, of D-Gray Man, was the only exorcist with no fighting ability, but had a well executed character arc and showed as much strength as any other exorcist, and then you also have Lenalee and Klaud Nine as well.

For a specific recent series, I think Chainsaw Man is actually a good example. Makima is kind of a "prize" for Denji, in that his main motivation is to enter a relationship with her, but she clearly has her own stuff going on, and can carry an interesting story on her own as well as maintaining full agency within the relationship. In general, both male and female characters are both shown to be competent as well as emotionally vulnerable in different ways. The more grounded artstyle also helps, in that the designs of the female characters, while attractive, aren't ridiculously exaggerated or idealized.

 

[Ryuusei]

I'm not trying to "get away" with enjoying this kind of material like it's some sort of cardinal sin. I also have no fear whatsoever that it won't stay around. It may appear in a different format, but it will still be there. The original person who was comparing it to men's supposed fantasy of "murder and rape" and her several xenophobic comments against the Japanese is kind of where I draw the line.

I understand the entire point of the argument, I'm no child, but this is certainly not the place to start fires. Targeting actual abuse of minors and women would be a far more effective and feasible method, and smaller scale things like this can be moved to a more reasonable format once the actual problem is solved.

That's my entire thought on the subject and I won't comment on it any further, though. This is a thread for manga discussion, but it's devolving into arguing moral depravity, and that isn't why any of us are here.

Then why you should have elaborated it like "Hey, I understand the point, but I don't agree with the way it was worded", it would have been much better and we could have started a different conversation there.

Meh... The way mags are sold in Japan kids can grab adult mags off the shelves as well, they're literally next to each other.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Since you don't really make the age of WSJ readers an issue, I'll ignore that for now and ask you, how is sexualizing and objectifying men in particularly romantically charged shoujo/josei any different or more permissible?

Showing boobs is hardly worse than the sexualization of men outside of WSJ. Plus men are objectified in different ways then just "oh the chest is showing", since women find literary stuff more sexy than visual stuff. So why aren't these people complaining about that as well?

Edit: Plus MAR literally showed nipples in the main magazine before. And SQ continues to show them even though it's also marketed to a relatively similar demographic. The outrage is ... Well, potentially misdirected.

I was going to comment on the age thing but I'm trying to collect all my thoughts and type them down on a dire situation here. But dude, what kind of shoujo and josei have you had contact with? Most of the male characters are pretty skinny boys. Unless you're talking about the recurrent homossexual undertones lol.

 

[Thores]

It's funny you think that a 10 year old's mind will be damaged by seeing nipples, but not by watching women be put in compromising positions every chapter.

Personally, I'd much rather my kid watch Jigokuraku in all its nippled glory than something like Yuuna when it comes to females. Because the women in Jigokuraku are naked, but they are still strong and fighting and acting like human beings with a mind of their own. They are still people who demand respect. In Yuuna, the nipples are censored, but the rest of the woman is presented like a piece of meat.

(I wouldn't actually let a little kid read Jigokuraku because it's pretty gruesome, but that's another discussion.)

I don't think a 10 year old's mind would be damaged by seeing nipples. It's just weird they can not only technically buy the nipples from a convenience store without any regulation or their parent's input, but they're also expected to buy the nipples if they want to see what Luffy's up to this week. It's a weird juxtaposition.

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

The Promised Neverland and Spy x Family (if it counts) both have well developed female leads with a lot of agency, and they don't primarily exist to be objectified or protected by the male characters.

 

[Vizard]

Boku-tachi wa Benkyou ga Dekinai #14

HEART GEAR #2

Kako no Anata wo Yuukai Shimashita #3

Koro-Sensei Q! #5

 

[NeeNeen]

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

If we're talking equal treatment, I guess TPN and MHA are pretty good (though MHA still centers around boys a lot).

If we're talking strong and capable women who aren't afraid of showing they are women, Dr. Stone handles that nicely.

And Act-age somehow manages to do both. I think that one takes it.

Bleach

Bleach, really? Didn't, like, half of the story lines center around saving the damsel in distress?

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

The Promised Neverland and Spy x Family (if it counts) both have well developed female leads with a lot of agency, and they don't primarily exist to be objectified or protected by the male characters.

Strong characters, sure.

But the way Yor looks at her role in the marriage is... not very progressive, to say the least.

 

[Jovan]

Bleach, really? Didn't, like, half of the story lines center around saving the damsel in distress?

This is a funny timing since I have just read first 6-7 volumes of Bleach in the past week, and I literally came up to the arc that is a "saving the damsel in distress" manifestation at large. At least there is that Ch.43 female power glory.

Spoiler

I really hope it changes at some point, but Rukia is a very, very, very useless character so far. I cannot even count 5 (or maybe even 3) remarkable things she did from Ch.1 to Ch.56.

If we're talking equal treatment, I guess TPN and MHA are pretty good (though MHA still centers around boys a lot).

If we're talking strong and capable women who aren't afraid of showing they are women, Dr. Stone handles that nicely.

And Act-age somehow manages to do both. I think that one takes it.

I agree with this.

 

[supercow297]

I think it's related to what Ryuusei said, it's not so much that the content is new, but the fact that more people are able to voice their opinions on the matter as well as increased discussion and changing attitudes on what is and isn't considered acceptable. Sure it's been going on for years, but the way public opinions change means that some people might decide that it shouldn't continue. For a long time, it was considered acceptable for gay men to be depicted as overly buff guys with effeminate mannerisms who would pursue and harass male characters who were very much not okay with that sort of attention. What do you think someone would say if a character like that showed up now?

Literally still showing up now. Just watch Kabukicho Sherlock for example.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Then why you should have elaborated it like "Hey, I understand the point, but I don't agree with the way it was worded", it would have been much better and we could have started a different conversation there.



I was going to comment on the age thing but I'm trying to collect all my thoughts and type them down on a dire situation here. But dude, what kind of shoujo and josei have you had contact with? Most of the male characters are pretty skinny boys. Unless you're talking about the recurrent homossexual undertones lol.

Bruh again you didn't read what I said.
" women find literary stuff more sexy than visual stuff." Like situational stuff and the attitude of the guy is more important usually. So there's a lot of objectification of that sort even if the guy isn't showing his nipples or whatever. That's what I meant.

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

I object to putting the word "feminism" assuming you mean modern feminism and "progressive" in the same sentence here as if continually tilting the scales in one direction necessarily implies progression, but that aside I think Black Clover, Kimetsu, Jujutsu, Act age, actually just a lot of manga treat females as humans that have their own stories and capabilities, which is very refreshing.

 

[NeeNeen]

actually just a lot of manga treat females as humans that have their own stories and capabilities, which is very refreshing.

... You remind me of that scene in CCM 42 where Denji is boasting how great it is that he gets to eat three times a day and sleep in a bed.

My reaction is the same as the girl's.

 

[Konja9]

I was going to comment on the age thing but I'm trying to collect all my thoughts and type them down on a dire situation here. But dude, what kind of shoujo and josei have you had contact with? Most of the male characters are pretty skinny boys. Unless you're talking about the recurrent homossexual undertones lol.

Supercow297 wants to say that men are objectified in Shoujo and Josei, even if they don't show his bodies so often. After all, fanservice tend to be a way of objetified.

The fanservice directed towards women in manga and anime has more focus in actions and the face of the male characters. Shoujo and Josei could show shirtless scenes of the males characters as fanservice, but this isn't so often (compared the ecchi moments in Shonen). I guess many women are not so interested in the exposition of the male body (compared to men interested in the the exposition of the female body).

However, this fanservice directed towards women (even if it doesn't show a lot of body) is still a way of objectifying men.


Curiously, manga smut directed to woman tend to show naked female characters more than naked male characters.

 

[ChocoBar9]

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

Well it depends on what you actually mean since most people seem to believe that having a female character who is strong is the equivalent of feminism and by that logic you can say that Fairy Tail is the most feminist shounen manga in recent years, quite frankly most Japanese artist tend to avoid the issue entirely since they know their audiences won't care about representation or appearing to be "woke". Ironically enough the only artist who have addressed the issue out in the open was Horikoshi, I mean his first manga Oumagadoki Zoo had a female lead, way back in the beginning with his Ochako v Bakugou fight, he is also the only artist in Jump that has brought up transgender roles without them seeing like a total joke or fetish fuel and there's a character who is pansexual in the manga. Now before a certain someone get on me for even insinuating that MHA has done anything progressive I'll like to point out that Hori acknowledges these things exist instead of just ignoring and making joke or strawman out of it like most artists do but he also writes to what is expected from a shounen manga and what his audience likes there's no hiding the fact that people have issues to how he handles female characters but they're largely in the variety of what their expectations are than anything to series has actually done.

 

[Ryuusei]

Bruh again you didn't read what I said.
" women find literary stuff more sexy than visual stuff." Like situational stuff and the attitude of the guy is more important usually. So there's a lot of objectification of that sort even if the guy isn't showing his nipples or whatever. That's what I meant.

Supercow297 wants to say that men are objectified in Shoujo and Josei, even if they don't show his bodies so often. After all, fanservice tend to be a way of objetified.

The fanservice directed towards women in manga and anime has more focus in actions and the face of the male characters. Shoujo and Josei could show shirtless scenes of the males characters as fanservice, but this isn't so often (compared the ecchi moments in Shonen). I guess many women are not so interested in the expoisition of the male body (compared to men interested in the the exposition of the female body).

However, this fanservice directed towards women (even if it doesn't show a lot of body) is still a way of objectifying men.


Curiously, manga smut directed to woman tend to show naked female characters more than naked male characters.

Wait, so you guys consider liking a character for their personality traits and attitudes a form of objectification? Objectification is literally stripping people down of those things and making their existence solely about their bodies. It makes no sense to compare both cases.

 

[tirakai]

I feel like Act-age is a pretty clear #1 currently. The girls there that are all proper characters with their own stories and motivations that aren't just about liking some guy or providing fanservice, and they're also not just originally male character that the writer decided to switch to a woman for the sake of diversifying the cast more (like action series tend to do).

 

[ChocoBar9]

If we're talking strong and capable women who aren't afraid of showing they are women, Dr. Stone handles that nicely.

Most of the female characters in Stone are their to support the males via being love interests or dropping babies. They're not given the same level of importance as the males but they're not treated badly either which honestly shouldn't be knock against it since its expected for the audience in question.

And Act-age somehow manages to do both. I think that one takes it.

The whole thing with Act-age is that its not gender specific and it doesn't directly appeal to one group or another so the characterization of its female cast is just a byproduct of its good writing than trying to appear "strong" or "progressive". It also dances around a lot of those issues because its largely character focus, what the hell is a series like this doing in Jump?

Bleach, really? Didn't, like, half of the story lines center around saving the damsel in distress?

I actually really like the female cast in Bleach since they all have great designs and memorable personalities yeah it sucks that Rukia and Orihime became damsels in distress but the whole point of both of those arcs was to offer introspectives into their characters and in Rukia's case she wanted to sacrifice herself in order to make amends due to her own guilt and her development was her own self-discovery that her life was worth carrying on because she had an such impact on Ichigo that he had to return the favor. There's a reason why Rukia is constantly considered one of the best female leads in shounen manga since her design and personality sticks up among the pack and unlike many of her contemporaries she didn't regress into being a love interest when she didn't need to.

 

[Mankichi Togawa]

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

For me is Black Clover. Noelle is for me the best heroine in current Jump: a strong self-dependant woman who has had a lot of character development and is right now one of the strongest characters of the manga. Yes, I find Noelle more solid than Emma for example.


Almost all Black Clover women are very strong, self-dependant women: Noelle, Mereoleona, Charlotte, Sol, Dorothy, Vanessa, Charmy, Fana, Sally, spoiler girl, etc. Only two women I wouldn't include would be Mimosa (and I'm doubtful because we saw how Mimosa grew and learned Solar Beam, some leadership skills, and some development in self-confidence in the tournament arc), Nebra (we haven't seen her doing almost anything), and Grey (which is by far the Black Bull member that we know the least).

After Black Clover, Act-age for me.

Honorific mention for Jujutsu Kaisen since Nobara is a very very very badass girl. Same for Maki. And Mai. And Miwa who is best girl. The cons is that female cast is still small in Jujutsu, and barring her crowning moment of awesomeness in chapters 60-63, Nobara hasn't done much (before these chapters, Maki did more stuff for example).