Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Ebrietas-]

Chainsaw Man, seriously author-san, why can't any women in this series be a bit normal? or all of them have to be some crazy insane asshole or at least treat Denji like a pet?

Not sure if you're joking or not but that is the case for every character in CSM not just the women

 

[Halloween]

Chainsaw Man, seriously author-san, why can't any women in this series be a bit normal? or all of them have to be some crazy insane asshole or at least treat Denji like a pet?

I'm not sure I agree with you. First of all, all the women in Denji's life are devils/fiends.

They're not even human to begin with. That plays into their personalities. Even Makima, who's been the nicest to Denji, has a serious dark/murderous side.

I don't consider that poor treatment, though. Fujimoto wanted his female cast to be that way. Not being normal doesn't necessarily mean it's poor treatment, is what I'm getting at. That's just the tone of the series.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

It's more of a joke because the last chapter, despite being a good chapter Chainsaw Man is getting a bit predictable with the whole "crazy woman around Denji".

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

I wanted to say Dragon Ball, but at least it had characters like Bulma, Launch, and even Chichi. If we could split the anime seasons up, however, then Dragon Ball Z would be among the worst because they barely even exist. Legit just Android 18 and that's it, from all i remember.

EDIT: Oh, right, Videl. Forgot she was a thing. Goddamn, you're actually right.

Wait, all of the most prominent female characters in the series (Videl, Chichi, Bulma, Android 18), which the exception of Launch, start off as badasses but then just end up being just pregnant housewives in the end. Holy shit. I worry for Cheelai now.

18 still badass and had one of the best moments in the tournament of power, the rest are just regular humans, even the old cast of men doesn't have much to do anymore because the difference of power, let alone regular women.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019 ---

What's wrong with Makima?

Seriously? she just look less "crazy" compared to the others but she still a very mystery woman with probably some messed up past or actions, also isn't like she literally don't manipulate and uses Denji as a pet using sexual favors to motivate him.

 

[NeeNeen]

I should really watch Bakuman again, cause that seems to be a popular answer. I can vouch for Death Note’s Misa, though, she was annoying and just there to be used.

I agree with Death Note, but not Bakuman. Just because a woman decides to be a housewife doesn't mean she's a bad character. The girls in that series at least had plenty of personality.

Dragon Ball.

Toriyama legit forgot that Launch was a character.
Chi Chi and Videl being completely ruined as characters just becoming housewives despite being two of the more powerful humans. They did the same to Android 18 once she became good.
Bulla having no use despite being half saiyan.

Bulla is, like, one month old. What exactly are you expecting an infant to do?

And Android 18 just fought in the tournament.

(Videl is a shame though, I'll give you that. She still has a strong-ish personality, but she lost most of her spunk.)

 

[TyVip]

I'd say Toriko. Its female casts exist to move the plot forward or be ridiculously overpower villain. Not to mention the lack of Female Gourmet Hunters.

 

[animeexpert]

Chainsaw Man, seriously author-san, why can't any women in this series be a bit normal? or all of them have to be some crazy insane asshole or at least treat Denji like a pet?

Makima isn't an asshole tho, she serve the purpose of an leader that face the most dangerous demons in existence. You cant be "normal" living like this, hell

Spoiler

she was even trying and testing her normality when she was on a date with denji

She is a contradiction for an FEMALE lead who controlling the MALE MC, in an shonenjump magazine. While it is always the opposite in shonen. That's already brilliant

Nobody is "normal" in the series, besides hirokazu and maybe aki.

Btw we talking about the guy who wrote fire punch, I ain't gonna go explain it if you know it.

 

[Koni]

It's more of a joke because the last chapter, despite being a good chapter Chainsaw Man is getting a bit predictable with the whole "crazy woman around Denji".

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

18 still badass and had one of the best moments in the tournament of power, the rest are just regular humans, even the old cast of men doesn't have much to do anymore because the difference of power, let alone regular women.

Actually, you're right. This is why I should watch Dragon Ball again, I keep forgetting.

 

[Xzone]

Dragon Ball.

Toriyama legit forgot that Launch was a character.
Chi Chi and Videl being completely ruined as characters just becoming housewives despite being two of the more powerful humans. They did the same to Android 18 once she became good.
Bulla having no use despite being half saiyan.

Are we talking about jump manga or we are also talking about series related media like anime sequels or LN?
Because A18 in the buu arc have the same or more action than krillin and Videl was a little stronger than Satan (and unlike lunch the power level were too high to shine).
I only think that the worst case in the manga about a female was Chichi. In general the treatment is meh.

 

[NeeNeen]

18 still badass and had one of the best moments in the tournament of power, the rest are just regular humans, even the old cast of men doesn't have much to do anymore because the difference of power, let alone regular women.

In the last chapter of the manga they actually started dragging up the weakling humans again to defend the earth because Goku, Vegeta and Buu are all otherwise occupied and apparently nobody thought to put 17 on speed dial.

(Krilin even suggested calling Yamcha... but still didn't bring his wife. I hope that comes back to bite him.)

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Are we talking about jump manga or we are also talking about series related media like anime sequels or LN?
Because A18 in the buu arc have the same or more action than krillin and Videl was a little stronger than Satan (and unlike lunch the power level were too high).
I only think that the worst case in the manga about a female was Chichi. In general the treatment is meh.

As insufferable as I find Chichi, I'd actually wager she became a stronger female character over time.


Little girl Chichi:

"Ah, a monster! DADDY, I'M SCARED!"

"Ah, a boy! BE MY HUSBAND!"


Adult Chichi:

*screaming down the most powerful mortals in the universe on a daily basis*

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Makima isn't an asshole tho, she serve the purpose of an leader that face the most dangerous demons in existence. You cant be "normal" living like this, hell

Spoiler

she was even trying and testing her normality when she was on a date with denji

She is a contradiction for an FEMALE lead who controlling the MALE MC, in an shonenjump magazine. While it is always the opposite in shonen. That's already brilliant

Nobody is "normal" in the series, besides hirokazu and maybe aki.

Btw we talking about the guy who wrote fire punch, I ain't gonna go explain it if you know it.

Sorry i don't see anything brilliant just because Makima control Denji offering sexual favors, the asshole is more about Power and the other girls but she was pretty much a asshole in the second chapter of the manga when she was basically treating Denji as a pet and forcing him to do things saying "if you don't do that you will not eat and i will just kill you".

Also, i'm getting a bit tired of reading "this is the guy who wrote Fire Punch" everytime as if this is supposed to be a excuse or reason why literally everything happens in Chainsaw Man, i'm reading CM, not FP. Not talking about you, just using the comment to say something that i wanted to say for a while

 

[4Eyes]

I'd say Toriko. Its female casts exist to move the plot forward or be ridiculously overpower villain. Not to mention the lack of Female Gourmet Hunters.

Anime producers even added that filler journalist since they judged the manga lacked women.

I don't know if it's the manga which handles its females worse, but from what I've read in Chainsawman (not much tbh), it's the manga that annoys me the most. I felt almost like the author hates women.

 

[Thundercat27]

Chainsaw Man, seriously author-san, why can't any women in this series be a bit normal? or all of them have to be some crazy insane asshole or at least treat Denji like a pet?

Were miss puke or scar girl or any female extras insane?

 

[animeexpert]

Sorry i don't see anything brilliant just because Makima control Denji offering sexual favors, the asshole is more about Power and the other girls but she was pretty much a asshole in the second chapter of the manga when she was basically treating Denji as a pet and forcing him to do things saying "if you don't do that you will not eat and i will just kill you".

Also, i'm getting a bit tired of reading "this is the guy who wrote Fire Punch" everytime as if this is supposed to be a excuse or reason why literally everything happens in Chainsaw Man, i'm reading CM, not FP. Not talking about you, just using the comment to say something that i wanted to say for a while

Well I mean, it would be super bland if they all were normal & nice. Or just have generic shonen quirks like a tsundere, it would look like jujutsu kaisen2. These sane people give so much depth for denji as a person

 

[Thundercat27]

I agree Makima is an asshole.
But tbh, the morality in CSM is flawed at best and I love it when Reze pointed out how on Earth it is acceptable for a government agency to hire a 16 year old to do such dangerous job, which is even better when it resembles KGB irl, the way they pointed out real society issues for propaganda and recruitment (i.e. systemic racist in the US during the cold war). Then I recalled, weren't 13 year olds in Naruto already worked as merc for hired .
Also Power and maybe Reze are NOT human. So human morality does not apply.

 

[Thores]

So, I have an alternative question for everyone.

Which popular WSJ series (old or new) has treated it's female cast the worst?

Besides stuff that's already been brought up, Samurai 8 hasn't been doing a great job in that respect.

The fact that women have a defined role in the setting's power system, and that role is literally "pray to power up their male counterpart, who does all the actual fighting"... I was hoping that Kishimoto would have gotten better at writing female characters since Naruto, and the first 20-ish chapters hasn't exactly filled me with confidence.

 

[NeeNeen]

Besides stuff that's already been brought up, Samurai 8 hasn't been doing a great job in that respect.

The fact that women have a defined role in the setting's power system, and that role is literally "pray to power up their male counterpart, who does all the actual fighting"... I was hoping that Kishimoto would have gotten better at writing female characters since Naruto, and the first 20-ish chapters hasn't exactly filled me with confidence.

I think Naruto was way better, really. The latest chapters (in the M+ rerun) had Sakura, Granny Chiyo and Hokage Tsunade all being awesome, and there are quite a few ninja teams that have girls in them.

S8 doesn't seem to have any female characters aside from the princesses, which are the literal definition of women who only exist to support their men.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

I think the memory of both of you are weak, literally the first page of Samurai 8 is Daruma's master, a very strong and wise woman telling him his mission, also i think this interpretation of the princess being just "woman supporting their man" is quite malicious, as if is just simply as that when it's literally said that the relation between princess and the samurais are much more complex and deep than being just about "woman being protected by man", not to mention how the princess prayers are a key element to the samurai strenght, which means they're important.

 

[NeeNeen]

I think the memory of both of you are weak, literally the first page of Samurai 8 is Daruma's master, a very strong and wise woman telling him his mission, also i think this interpretation of the princess being just "woman supporting their man" is quite malicious, as if is just simply as that when it's literally said that the relation between princess and the samurais are much more complex and deep than being just about "woman being protected by man", not to mention how the princess prayers are a key element to the samurai strenght, which means they're important.

Forgot about her, indeed. Is she alive?

And it's not about being protected, it's about 'grant your guy strenght' being their job definition. Like, that's what they studied for. I'm not saying it's not important, but it is the most literal example of a 'support female' I've ever come accross.

(And no, that doesn't have to be a bad thing in terms of story or character. But in the context of this particular discussion about female representation, it's not going to score you much points.)

 

[WyldViolet]

I think the memory of both of you are weak, literally the first page of Samurai 8 is Daruma's master, a very strong and wise woman telling him his mission, also i think this interpretation of the princess being just "woman supporting their man" is quite malicious, as if is just simply as that when it's literally said that the relation between princess and the samurais are much more complex and deep than being just about "woman being protected by man", not to mention how the princess prayers are a key element to the samurai strenght, which means they're important.

Just because it says that women are important doesn't mean it reads that way.
Lazy phony feminism.
Kishimoto is sexist, this isn't news. He tries to write female characters but it always reads as if he's never actually encountered another female outside of fictional media.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Abou the Daruma's master, i believe she is alive and well.

In the end of the day, i honestly don't see anything wrong, sexist or whatever someone wants to call it in Samurai 8 or really, in any of the current Jump mangas, and i really doubt that even the female readers of SJ cares much about representation, hence why the most popular shounen works between girls are the ones with the all "male cast" with almost no girls and even when you have, they're basically useless or just had very minor roles. What a boring talk, i'm out...