One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

If Shanks, Rayleigh, Oden, Roger commit themself to the way of the sword and occasionally the way of a scythe, will they forge a black blade if it turns out that Black Blade is simply the highest level of CoA achievable even without committing yourself to a sword and occasionally a scythe?

You are speculating that is how a black blade is forged, which is why we are disagreeing.

You have no idea what goes into forging a black blade. It is your headcanon that it's as simple as being the highest form of CoA. Whereas I am under no such delusions. IMHO if it was as simple as just being strong CoA we'd see more black blades, but just imo.

 

[nik87]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. You're speculating that having a black blade somehow makes Mihawk stronger than Roger? Same for Ryuma? If so, I'm not sure there's anything else to say XD

The point I am trying to make is that Ryuma, who had a black blade, was very powerful monster himself. Roger is not the only monster around...

It will, which is why it's irresponsible to make claims before any sort of evidence has been revealed.

Same could be said for any high tier without a blackened sword. What's the point of blackening a sword when I could, seemingly, get the same affect by temporarily applying haki to my weapon? Especially in cases when you already have a Supreme Grade sword? There really be no reason for someone like Whitebeard and, potentially, Shanks to go any higher because they already have the highest quality sword without blackening it.

There are only two people because we've only seen 2 people. That doesn't mean that there are not others out there. I wouldn't be surprised if, after the introduction of the concept, we may be seeing more people with blackened blades as we get closer to the end of the series. Shiryu may be a candidate to get one. Vista could've achieved it recently. We don't know.

Sure, remains to be seen what exactly it is...
It is not the same as coating it temporarily because you can temporarily coat already a black blade so hardness(at least)remains superior.
We have seen other people from this and Roger's era, nobody else has a black blade. Whether anyone else aside from Zoro will get it in this era is up in air.

You are speculating that is how a black blade is forged, which is why we are disagreeing.
You have no idea what goes into forging a black blade. It is your headcanon that it's as simple as being the highest form of CoA. Whereas I am under no such delusions. IMHO if it was as simple as just being strong CoA we'd see more black blades, but just imo.

Of course it is my headcanon, I said from the start that it is my expectation of what a Kokuto is... Perhaps, this very arc, will show us what it is...

 

[M3J]

It's absurd to think Shanks, Mihawk or Zoro could outfight Roger.



Yea, I've kinda dismissed this when counting Zoro's improvement thanks to Mihawk's training. He's been doing those ranged slashes a lot more post-skip. Wondering if this is by virtue of becoming stronger or whether it's a technical aspect Mihawk has honed; or both.

I think it's because of Mihawk's training. Doesn't Zoro infuse the ranged slashes with haki?

In context, I think Mihawk meant that becoming Pirate King means surpassing him and more.

And is that not accurate? On theory, the Pirate King will compete against Whitebeard or Kaido, who are stronger than Mihawk.

Mihawk meant that becoming Pirate King is harder than becoming the World's Strongest Swordsman because swordsmen's final opponent would be Mihawk whereas to become a Pirate King, you have tons of enemies that are extremely powerful. Zoro's main opponents are swordsmen, and if Zoro didn't join a pirate crew, his enemies wouldn't be the World Government or all pirates. Luffy's main opponents are the World Government, the Yonkou, and other pirates. It's not like there are four swordsmen emperors for Zoro to contend with that will try to kill him.

I think this is a tl;dr version of what you said though?

 

[Pirate Queen]

Would he, or would Shanks have told his crew to back off and let him handle it on his own? Shanks and Whitebeard also seemed to drink occasionally as well, or at least that's the implication. Plus they had respect for each other as well. Shanks was probably using haki on the ship as a banter or for fun with Whitebeard.

Mihawk is a lone swordsman with no apparent aspiration other than to be the best swordsman whereas Whitebeard was an Emperor who had the power to destroy the world. The Marines probably feared two Emperors coming together and possibly creating another Rocks crew.

Actually Whitebeard and Shanks hadn't seen eachother in years, which is implied by the discussion itself.

And while I agree with your point, Shanks and Mihawk joining forces should be as equally dangerous as Kaido and BM joining forces... if Mihawk is as strong as we think. Right? The implication is that Mihaek is Yonko level.

WG litterally couldn't give a shit tho. Not a single worry.

 

[albertwv]

The title "Worlds Strongest Swordsman," I believe refers to swordsmen in their swordsman skills. Therefore anyone who is a swordsman is weaker than him right? So test out this theory...Roger seems to have wield a sword, Rayleigh, and Oden did too. Why were they not refer to as the "World's strongest swordsmen" in their time? I can argue that Oden was probably stronger than Mihawk 20-30 years ago and even if Oden was alive today I bet he would still be better than current Mihawk. I'm sure if he were to throw a powerful slash at WB, Jozu wouldn't have been able to block it. I can even bet Old Rayleigh can defeat Mihawk with high difficulty.

Shanks is definitely stronger than Mihawk, no matter how you see it. Mihawk holds the title, but Shanks although seems to wield a sword is not a full fledge swordsman, like Roger and Rayleigh. Oden was a swordsman but Roger wasnt.

Mihawk best feat besides sparring with Shanks years before Shanks even became a Yonko, has been fighting with Vista. Vista is YC level and a swordsmen, but I'm sure we can agree that Mihawk> Vista. Maybe they were not both not serious but im sure Mihawk would defeat Vista with high difficulty. Mihawk hasn't shown he's capable of defeating an Admiral and Shanks can defeat an admiral, he blocked Akainu's magma fist with ease, something not even WB could do. Plus, nobody dared challenged him at MF, that speaks volume of his Power. Also someone mentioned this already, but the only people capable of stopping BB after MF were the Yonko and Marco. Mihawk or any other individual was not named.

The reason you believe Mihawk is insanely strong is because he is Zoro's goal, you think he may be an End of Series character just like people believe Akainu is stronger than the Yonko because he is supposedly End of Series character. But i dont think thats the case.

 

[Pirate Queen]

The title "Worlds Strongest Swordsman," I believe refers to swordsmen in their swordsman skills. Therefore anyone who is a swordsman is weaker than him right? So test out this theory...Roger seems to have wield a sword, Rayleigh, and Oden did too. Why were they not refer to as the "World's strongest swordsmen" in their time? I can argue that Oden was probably stronger than Mihawk 20-30 years ago and even if Oden was alive today I bet he would still be better than current Mihawk. I'm sure if he were to throw a powerful slash at WB, Jozu wouldn't have been able to block it. I can even bet Old Rayleigh can defeat Mihawk with high difficulty.

Shanks is definitely stronger than Mihawk, no matter how you see it. Mihawk holds the title, but Shanks although seems to wield a sword is not a full fledge swordsman, like Roger and Rayleigh. Oden was a swordsman but Roger wasnt.

Mihawk best feat besides sparring with Shanks years before Shanks even became a Yonko, has been fighting with Vista. Vista is YC level and a swordsmen, but I'm sure we can agree that Mihawk> Vista. Maybe they were not both not serious but im sure Mihawk would defeat Vista with high difficulty. Mihawk hasn't shown he's capable of defeating an Admiral and Shanks can defeat an admiral, he blocked Akainu's magma fist with ease, something not even WB could do. Plus, nobody dared challenged him at MF, that speaks volume of his Power. Also someone mentioned this already, but the only people capable of stopping BB after MF were the Yonko and Marco. Mihawk or any other individual was not named.

The reason you believe Mihawk is insanely strong is because he is Zoro's goal, you think he may be an End of Series character just like people believe Akainu is stronger than the Yonko because he is supposedly End of Series character. But i dont think thats the case.

I don't like the arguement that Shanks isn't a "Full fledged Swordsman" until we get definitive proof he isn't. I couldn't picture Shanks using anything other than a sword or pistol... It's his haki that makes the difference IMHO.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2020 ---

Let's deal with this title issue once and for all...
Let's say that the 3 characters who received the world's strongest titles are the 3 strongest characters in the verse: Kaido>WB>Mihawk.

If Mihawk really is the 3rd strongest character, which title should he have?

What title issue are you referring to? There isn't one as far as I can see.

 

[M3J]

Actually Whitebeard and Shanks hadn't seen eachother in years, which is implied by the discussion itself.

And while I agree with your point, Shanks and Mihawk joining forces should be as equally dangerous as Kaido and BM joining forces... if Mihawk is as strong as we think. Right? The implication is that Mihaek is Yonko level.

WG litterally couldn't give a shit tho. Not a single worry.

Doesn't go against "occasionally," does it? Didn't they banter about where to get the best alcohol?

Did they know SHanks and Mihawk were going to meet? Plus, as far as we know, Shanks and Mihawk were never in a same crew, so the WG never had to worry about them joining forces, and Mihawk and Shanks weren't likely to fight each other as Shanks and Whitebeard might have.

I mean, all of this is just conjecture, as Oda hasn't really shown us much other than the World's Greatest Swordsman refusing to fight his former rival after he lost an arm.

Why were they not refer to as the "World's strongest swordsmen" in their time?

Probably because the world didn't care about that, or there was no way to really tell at the time? I mean, no one was considered the Pirate King until Roger did it first, and he was probably the first to go for that title.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Doesn't go against "occasionally," does it? Didn't they banter about where to get the best alcohol?

Did they know SHanks and Mihawk were going to meet? Plus, as far as we know, Shanks and Mihawk were never in a same crew, so the WG never had to worry about them joining forces, and Mihawk and Shanks weren't likely to fight each other as Shanks and Whitebeard might have.

I mean, all of this is just conjecture, as Oda hasn't really shown us much other than the World's Greatest Swordsman refusing to fight his former rival after he lost an arm.

If you go back and read 434, it kind of implies Shanks and Whitebeard haven't seen eachother since Shanks was an apprentice on Roger's ship (I actually just went back an reread it myself.)

And if the WG knew Shanks and WB were gunna meet why wouldn't they know when one of their "lap dogs" (Shichibukai) meets with him?

As to your last point Mihawk walking away from Shanks during the war... it was clear Mihawk knew Shanks was going to shut down the war so there was no point in staying there much long. But yeah, it's mainly a mystery.

 

[hokageji]

But yeah, it's mainly a mystery.

exatly, and sometimes it important to accept that we don't know something rather than make it up and assume things...

 

[M3J]

If you go back and read 434, it kind of implies Shanks and Whitebeard haven't seen eachother since Shanks was an apprentice on Roger's ship (I actually just went back an reread it myself.)

And if the WG knew Shanks and WB were gunna meet why wouldn't they know when one of their "lap dogs" (Shichibukai) meets with him?

As to your last point Mihawk walking away from Shanks during the war... it was clear Mihawk knew Shanks was going to shut down the war so there was no point in staying there much long. But yeah, it's mainly a mystery.

It does, but it could also mean that they met before Shanks became an Emperor, as Whitebeard does mention his growth but not that the last time they met was when Roger was alive. Seems like they've met enough afterwards that Whitebeard does respect Shanks, and the others who've been on the ship long enough like Marco aren't really stressed.

it's not like they knew what Arlong was up to, or what Caesar or Doflamingo were doing, did they? Besides, why would they care? From Chapter 434, they were more concerned about Whitebeard and Shanks fighting than they were them joining forces.

I think they're either friends or people who deeply respect each other. Mihawk did apologize to Shanks before attacking Luffy during the war.

 

[nik87]

What title issue are you referring to? There isn't one as far as I can see.

"Mihawk is a mere Shichibukai, he cannot be stronger than a Yonko." Those kind of issues.
What title should he have if he is 3rd strongest character in the verse?

 

[Pirate Queen]

It does, but it could also mean that they met before Shanks became an Emperor, as Whitebeard does mention his growth but not that the last time they met was when Roger was alive. Seems like they've met enough afterwards that Whitebeard does respect Shanks, and the others who've been on the ship long enough like Marco aren't really stressed.

it's not like they knew what Arlong was up to, or what Caesar or Doflamingo were doing, did they? Besides, why would they care? From Chapter 434, they were more concerned about Whitebeard and Shanks fighting than they were them joining forces.

I think they're either friends or people who deeply respect each other. Mihawk did apologize to Shanks before attacking Luffy during the war.

Clearly a deep respect for eqchother. Even when Mihawk said he wasn't interested in fighting a one armed swordsman it was the equivelent of shit talking a friend and suddenly it blew up into Mihawk seriously not considering Shanks a threat when it was clearly more a respect/honor issue.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2020 ---

"Mihawk is a mere Shichibukai, he cannot be stronger than a Yonko." Those kind of issues.
What title should he have if he is 3rd strongest character in the verse?

It's not that he can't be... it's more that he isn't, in my opinion. I consider him in the same combat ability as the 4 Yonko tho. Shichibukai or Not. Only thing probably separating him from other Yonko is that he doesnt have a large crew.... He even has territory, unless he don't own the island he lives on

 

[M3J]

Clearly a deep respect for eqchother. Even when Mihawk said he wasn't interested in fighting a one armed swordsman it was the equivelent of shit talking a friend and suddenly it blew up into Mihawk seriously not considering Shanks a threat when it was clearly more a respect/honor issue.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2020 ---

It's not that he can't be... it's more that he isn't, in my opinion. I consider him in the same combat ability as the 4 Yonko tho. Shichibukai or Not. Only thing probably separating him from other Yonko is that he doesnt have a large crew.... He even has territory, unless he don't own the island he lives on

Mihawk had no problem taking on Whitebeard's crew either, but Shanks is where he draws the line? I think they're either friends, or Mihawk has no desire to fight Shanks whatsoever. It's odd, but I guess it's just another thing we have to see between the two.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Mihawk had no problem taking on Whitebeard's crew either, but Shanks is where he draws the line? I think they're either friends, or Mihawk has no desire to fight Shanks whatsoever. It's odd, but I guess it's just another thing we have to see between the two.

Probably because he THINKS he knows Shanks capabilities whereas he had no idea what WB was capable of.

I dont think anyone would say even
sick Whitebeard would lose to Mihawk. As for vs Shanks, it's still up in the air, like you said.

 

[M3J]

It seems more like he had no problem taking on Whitebeard while he didn't care to fight Shanks out of respect or because he had no reason to. Although, shichibukai were obligated to join or lose their status, so there was that as well I guess?

The misplaced line break confuses me, but I'm assuming you mean no one would say even sick Whitebeard would lose to Mihawk. I'd agree, but also it's interesting because Whitebeard wasn't a swordsman while Mihawk is. I forgot what Whitebeard's weapon is called, but if the old man was very proficient then he could likely beat Mihawk.

 

[nik87]

It's not that he can't be... it's more that he isn't, in my opinion. I consider him in the same combat ability as the 4 Yonko tho.

Why would Oda give two WSx titles to nr1 and nr2 of the verse while 3rd WSx title not to nr3 in the verse? It makes 0 sense.
Mihawk, who is waiting for someone to surpass Shanks to finally have the challenge to satisfy his needs, apparently already can achieve such just by fighting Shanks. Also makes 0 sense. The thing that makes sense is that Shanks cannot provide him with excitement that he desires.

 

[Silvers Horse]

@nik87

Yes lets end the title discussion

First lets go over some ground stuff first, so we can discuss proberly:

1. Do we know if Kaido was called WSC when WB was alive? I mean could Kaido just be the next WSM after WB, but with a changed titles as he is some kind of creature and not a man?
2. Do we know if Mihawk was called WSS when he duel with Shanks?
3. Do we know if Mihawk have had a duel with Shanks since he lost his arm around 12 years ago? Mihawk say at one point he don't wanna fight a cripple with one arm.
4. Can we deny that the WSS could just be the character with the world's strongest slash and nothing more? We know that Mihawn has worlds strongest slash (from chapter 553).
5. What if a character who didn't have the worlds strongest slash, but had crazy future haki beat mihawk. Would he/she be considered the WSS?

With this I guess we have some ground for discussion

I would name the words 3rd strongest man "the 3rd strongest man in the world". Otherwise there could be 10 characters not yielding swords that were stronger in theory.

 

[nik87]

@nik87

Yes lets end the title discussion

First lets go over some ground stuff first, so we can discuss proberly:

1. Do we know if Kaido was called WSC when WB was alive? I mean could Kaido just be the next WSM after WB, but with a changed titles as he is some kind of creature and not a man?
2. Do we know if Mihawk was called WSS when he duel with Shanks?
3. Do we know if Mihawk have had a duel with Shanks since he lost his arm around 12 years ago? Mihawk say at one point he don't wanna fight a cripple with one arm.
4. Can we deny that the WSS could just be the character with the world's strongest slash and nothing more? We know that Mihawn has worlds strongest slash (from chapter 553).
5. What if a character who didn't have the worlds strongest slash, but had crazy future haki beat mihawk. Would he/she be considered the WSS?

With this I guess we have some ground for discussion

I would name the words 3rd strongest man "the 3rd strongest man in the world". Otherwise there could be 10 characters not yielding swords that were stronger in theory.

1. According to Ace novel he is confirmed stronger than Whitebeard so there is no conflict between titles during WB's lifetime.
2. No, we dont know when he got the title but we know he had it first time he was shown in manga.
3. We know that he doesnt want to fight one-armed has-beens so they probably didnt fight after he lost his arm.
4. Yes, we can deny that. Nobody is competing in who has the stronger slash.
5. Yes if he uses sword to fight among other things.

I'll bring sake for the discussion.

 

[thedude]

The most annoying thing about this new Mihawk argument is it's so obvious that it's not really about Mihawk being stronger. The people making it are aware Oda said we are in endgame mode. They know that Luffy will continue to be the one defeating the top Yonko and then whatever "end boss" there is, and that Zoro will never prove stronger in manga because it's a freaking Shonen manga and that's not how they work, or how One Piece has worked since day 1.

So they decided that the epithet "Worlds strongest swordsman" now actually means "strongest person in the world" through various convoluted means "Kaido is WSC, but Oden nearly beat him, and he was a swordsman, therefore, all Swordsmen of a certain class would beat him", the most obvious A>B, therefore D>B scenario.

So we are forced to have silly arguments without acknowledging that we are actually arguing something else that will obviously be unprovable at the end of the manga, and therefore the people pushing it are just hoping we accept "WSS means the strongest person in the manga, full stop".

 

[nik87]

WSS means the strongest person in the manga

Another one of your headcanons, I assume?