Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2020] - Discussion and ToC Talk

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Shinuki no Reborn

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MANGAHELPERS "TOC" POLL ISSUE #51 - VOTING!​

The poll for issue #51 is now open, vote for your favorite chapters of the week clicking HERE!

Alongside the release of Sakamoto Days, the extra series this week are:

-Dragon Ball Super 66
-Boruto: Naruto Next Generations 52
-Ghost Reaper Girl 10


Good Votes!
 
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Halloween

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Moderator Notice:
Henceforth, I will be deleting posts that complain about Weekly Shonen Jump having too many/not enough gag/battle/exorcism/sports/etc series.

These posts are not insightful, and do not meaningfully contribute to this thread. Also, this decision is not up for discussion, so posts discussing this decision will also be deleted.~ Halloween
 
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Ryuusei

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呪 僕 O マ ブ S C D 破 C B 夜 C 僕 あ 灼 ぼ チ 高 ア 森 A 仄 ぼ 次号カラー ヒロアカ アンデラ 夜桜 約ネバ 道産子 GIGA 岸本先生が描くコラボポスター 爆豪クリアファイル
Jujutsu Kaisen (Cover & LCP)
My Hero Academia
One Piece
Mashle
Black Clover
Sakamoto Days (CP)
Dr. Stone
Magu-chan: God of Destruction (CP)
Build King
Mission: Yozakura Family
Me & Roboco
Ayakashi Triangle (CP)
Shakunetsu no Niraikanai
We Never Learn
Chainsaw Man
Koukousei Kazoku
Undead Unluck
Moriking
Agravity Boys
Honomieru Shounen
Bokura no Ketsumei

Issue #1
Cover & LCP: My Hero Academia
CP: Undead Unluck, Mission: Yozakura Family, The Promised Neverland, Dosanko Gyaru wa Namaramenkoi

GIGA Preview
Collab poster by Kishimoto
Bakugou clear file
 
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101nemesis

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I admit I was wrong.

There are some objective standards we could use.

Can you explain why is it objectively better(world building, charecters, battle system)?

Honestly for me the 2 series specialise in different things one piece:world building FMA:charecters that I find it hard to compare, the quality is on the same league that I can't say which one is above the other objectively.
Great, you've admitted you're wrong. Most can't do that today, so props to you!
Just like that art example, there are series that are objectively better than One Piece in aspects.

That said, I'm not going to sit here and go through things with you about why FMA or HxH are objectively better than OP. Doesn't matter, to you.
You don't need to be objective about everything. As long as you're having fun, it's fine.

My initial point was One Piece is not "the best written series", which is an objective argument. It will never be. It has many flaws already and I'm sure you can find those out on your own if you go to forums and interact with people who aren't die-hard one piece fans (mistaking being subjective and objective like you are).
Doesn't mean that it can't be the most fun or adventurous series to you or many (subjective). Entertainment value is subjective.
 

OniluapL

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I absolutely disagree that you can say one series is objectively better than another. Even if you can, maybe (and I also find this possibility at least questionable) point to certain elements of a work and say they are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, better than others, they are still just that - an element, a part of the entire work. You still have to judge, subjectively, how much each aspect matter for each series and how they connect to the whole - it depends on what you brings with you, which critical lens you are applying to the piece. There's no definitive rules for art criticism and a lot of ways you can judge a work. Art is so multifaceted that I don't believe there's anyway you could come up with a definitive way to judge the quality of a work, let alone compare one to another.

addendum: That goes both to who's saying One Piece is the greatest series ever written and who's saying is categorically not. I'm not just fanboying here this time, heh.

addendum two: What I've said doesn't mean that every argument is equally valid! If you have a more robust justification for why you think a series is better (Exaggerating: if someone makes a thematic analysis of character arcs and the other person says "but that punch was really cool, therefore this series is better!", those aren't equally valid points! But a better-argued point is still subjective.)
 

101nemesis

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I absolutely disagree that you can say one series is objectively better than another. Even if you can, maybe (and I also find this possibility at least questionable) point to certain elements of a work and say they are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, better than others, they are still just that - an element, a part of the entire work. You still have to judge, subjectively, how much each aspect matter for each series and how they connect to the whole - it depends on what you brings with you, which critical lens you are applying to the piece. There's no definitive rules for art criticism and a lot of ways you can judge a work. Art is so multifaceted that I don't believe there's anyway you could come up with a definitive way to judge the quality of a work, let alone compare one to another.

addendum: That goes both to who's saying One Piece is the greatest series ever written and who's saying is categorically not. I'm not just fanboying here this time, heh.

addendum two: What I've said doesn't mean that every argument is equally valid! If you have a more robust justification for why you think a series is better (Exaggerating: if someone makes a thematic analysis of character arcs and the other person says "but that punch was really cool, therefore this series is better!", those aren't equally valid points! But a better-argued point is still subjective.)
Im busy so I'm gonna keep this short (typing from phone).

If your target audience and genre is the same or similar, they can be objectively compared.

Even if they aren't meant for the same demographic like Japanese manga (shounen and seinen) where different demographics use the same tropes, objective comparisons are possible.

Things like series length are irrelevant as those are choices of said series to go that route.
Just because One Piece is 900+ chapters long, doesn't mean it cannot be compared to another battle manga that's only 150 chapters long.
 

Rain Spectre

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Contributing to this argument, may I point out that much of One Piece's readership has been with the series for at least a decade? Even the Strong World boost only saw under-18 readers make up about 11% of the readerbase.

Im busy so I'm gonna keep this short (typing from phone).

If your target audience and genre is the same or similar, they can be objectively compared.

Even if they aren't meant for the same demographic like Japanese manga (shounen and seinen) where different demographics use the same tropes, objective comparisons are possible.

Things like series length are irrelevant as those are choices of said series to go that route.
Just because One Piece is 900+ chapters long, doesn't mean it cannot be compared to another battle manga that's only 150 chapters long.
Honestly, I feel any nekketsu that runs in Jump is worth comparing, regardless of subject. Their nature as narrative driven manga means they all directly compete with each other.
 

Halloween

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I have no idea what those arguments could be considering Dragon Ball is a far more successful and valuable property than One Piece, the legacy of YuYu Hakusho, and Kinnikuman isn't given much respect compared to series with better volume sales.
Could you present some?
I meant in terms of manga sales records, not overall gross.
 

westabyss

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Such a flawed argument.
By your logic, no movie is a bad movie. No food is terrible. No music is horrible. No art is lacking. No game is poorly made.

Tastes are subjective. Creative or design choices are subjective. This is why some artists pay more attention to backgrounds while others focus on character art. Or some might prefer to have them both perfect. Those are creative choices and decisions. Art styles are subjective.
Very different from being able to tell if someone drew a face poorly. That's not subjective. That's objective.

Poorly paced series are that - Poorly paced. It's not subjective. It's objective.
They could be poorly paced for some other reasons that are based on creative decisions made. But doesn't take away the objective fact that something is poorly paced.

HxH and FMA are objectively better written series than Bleach. The entertainment value from all of these are subjective (I love Bleach more than the other 2 because I'm entertained more to my liking).
You're mixing two very different concepts here.
You are right that there are objective standards but you kinda fell on the nose with your last point because how do you even decide that FMA is better written than Bleach? How do you measure it? In the end its just a feeling for you that its better written. Some things you think are lacking are in Bleach, could be the favorite aspect of Bleach for other people.
 

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Im busy so I'm gonna keep this short (typing from phone).

If your target audience and genre is the same or similar, they can be objectively compared.

Even if they aren't meant for the same demographic like Japanese manga (shounen and seinen) where different demographics use the same tropes, objective comparisons are possible.

Things like series length are irrelevant as those are choices of said series to go that route.
Just because One Piece is 900+ chapters long, doesn't mean it cannot be compared to another battle manga that's only 150 chapters long.
I didn't say it cannot be compared, though. I also didn't say anything about series length, so I don't know what you mean by it. My point is that those are still subjective comparisons and that subjectivity doesn't equal "every opinion is equally right", just that quality standards aren't universal and that every work is way too complicated to be boiled down to objective measurements. But of course you can compare One Piece to other battle manga, when did I say otherwise?

edit: Well, I mean, they can be objectively compared regarding sales, demographics and reception. But I don't think that's the subject here.
 

Thehoennhippo

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Honestly, I feel any nekketsu that runs in Jump is worth comparing, regardless of subject. Their nature as narrative driven manga means they all directly compete with each other.
What does nekketsu mean in this context? I feel like I've seen you use this word recently but I don't understand it.
 

101nemesis

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You are right that there are objective standards but you kinda fell on the nose with your last point because how do you even decide that FMA is better written than Bleach? How do you measure it? In the end its just a feeling for you that its better written. Some things you think are lacking are in Bleach, could be the favorite aspect of Bleach for other people.
Bleach has numerous plot holes.
Biggest one, why did Ichigo just stand there and watch others fight (during Fake Karakura Town arc) and lose when he was the only one who could see they weren't actually fighting Aizen?
That alone makes Bleach objectively worse than FMA. It was a great dramatic twist but objectively made zero sense. Kubo made no effort to explain that either. Objectively flawed.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I didn't say it cannot be compared, though. I also didn't say anything about series length, so I don't know what you mean by it. My point is that those are still subjective comparisons and that subjectivity doesn't equal "every opinion is equally right", just that quality standards aren't universal and that every work is way too complicated to be boiled down to objective measurements. But of course you can compare One Piece to other battle manga, when did I say otherwise?

edit: Well, I mean, they can be objectively compared regarding sales, demographics and reception. But I don't think that's the subject here.
You're right, my bad. You didn't state that. I was responding in general because I think the general feeling about why OP cannot be compared to others is how long it is.
I just used your comment to ricochet that point.
 

westabyss

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That is what you believe, another thing is what really is. :p


And that serves as proof of what, exactly?
Can't I leave you a message here on the forum saying how smart and how great you are, and then in my privacy cursing you because you broke a record that was usually mine?
I'm not saying that is the case. But to affirm that one thinks a certain thing by a simple note that he left seems to me wrong.
As someone who used to buy OP volumes and read ton of interviews. My picture of Oda is that he loves competition and he is a person who gets motivated by that. See for example, when Naruto ended, Oda was sad because he lost a rival and he admitted that he lost worldwide to Naruto, even if he won in Japan. He was not a sour loser about it. Heck, even in the last interview with Horikoshi, Oda was happy that MHA was carrying Jump now. Saying that all the elementary school kids love MHA more than OP.
 

101nemesis

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I'd like to add that - understanding what the subjective interests are of your audience is important. Because that will translate to how many people can like that element or dislike that element (if that was the intention) and thereby increase the chance of something being popular.
 

Halloween

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@101nemesis

While I appreciate your wanting to cite examples, that is technically against the updated topicality rule.

I have debated against that demerit before in the past, but still, this isn't the place to discuss it.
 

westabyss

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Bleach has numerous plot holes.
Biggest one, why did Ichigo just stand there and watch others fight (during Fake Karakura Town arc) and lose when he was the only one who could see they weren't actually fighting Aizen?
That alone makes Bleach objectively worse than FMA. It was a great dramatic twist but objectively made zero sense. Kubo made no effort to explain that either. Objectively flawed.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



You're right, my bad. You didn't state that. I was responding in general because I think the general feeling about why OP cannot be compared to others is how long it is.
I just used your comment to ricochet that point.
Just because things aren't explained, they don't automatically become plot holes. Not saying that Bleach doesn't have any but you can find plot holes in any series. If i go through FMA, i will probably find enough like "the character could've done this here" or "why was he standing there." Those things exist anywhere. It wasn't about plot holes tho or about Bleach. Im just saying that you can't just say that series x is objectively better than series y.
 

Rain Spectre

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Bleach, while it has astonishing style and some genuinely strong character writing, is filled with time wasted on random fights with grunts that add nothing to the story or themes, and as Nemesis said is filled with instances where logic out and out collapses to play into a narrative turn.

Those are objective faults.
 

tirakai

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It's not a fault if the reason you're reading a series is to see lots of different fights and powers. Neither is the plot point mentioned previously an objective fault because it results in more fights and an entertaining twist, and that's a good point if you're reading the series to see everyone fight each other.

What you think is a fault may be a good point to someone else.
 

OniluapL

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Bleach, while it has astonishing style and some genuinely strong character writing, is filled with time wasted on random fights with grunts that add nothing to the story or themes, and as Nemesis said is filled with instances where logic out and out collapses to play into a narrative turn.

Those are objective faults.
Even if those are objective faults (which is another argument entirely), I still don't think that translates to "this series is objectively worse than series y". Nemesis said "it was a great dramatic twist, even if it made no sense" (or something to that effect), and for some this dramatic impact might overcome the logical flaw, while for some it might not. I don't think one opinion is more correct than the other here, because they are clearly two elements that play into what makes a series good or bad.
 

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As someone who used to buy OP volumes and read ton of interviews. My picture of Oda is that he loves competition and he is a person who gets motivated by that. See for example, when Naruto ended, Oda was sad because he lost a rival and he admitted that he lost worldwide to Naruto, even if he won in Japan. He was not a sour loser about it. Heck, even in the last interview with Horikoshi, Oda was happy that MHA was carrying Jump now. Saying that all the elementary school kids love MHA more than OP.
Sorry, but I can't buy that argument.

Although Naruto sold a lot (which he did), he has never exceeded volume sales or sales at the end of the fiscal year. It is one thing for you to have someone who represents a challenge and you find it fun and healthy, another very different thing is to see that they drastically surpassed you, as is the case in this year 2020. Naruto was broadcast for 10 years and in none, it exceeded to One Piece.

And that's not to mention everyone else who sold less than Naruto. Of course Oda will be happy with his success. They are light years away from reaching their numbers, and he knows that. Oda does not have to be angry about the success of manga like BnHA, etc.
 
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101nemesis

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Just because things aren't explained, they don't automatically become plot holes. Not saying that Bleach doesn't have any but you can find plot holes in any series. If i go through FMA, i will probably find enough like "the character could've done this here" or "why was he standing there." Those things exist anywhere. It wasn't about plot holes tho or about Bleach. Im just saying that you can't just say that series x is objectively better than series y.
a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.

What I mentioned was very much a plot hole. A significant one that changed the outcome of many characters for that arc and beyond. It's not as simple as "character could've done this or stood there". It's a major plothole, no two ways around that.
The creator's lack of explanation makes it worse, unfortunately.

Like I said, you can subjectively love anything. Objectively, a plot hole will be a plot hole.

It's not a fault if the reason you're reading a series is to see lots of different fights and powers. Neither is the plot point mentioned previously an objective fault because it results in more fights and an entertaining twist, and that's a good point if you're reading the series to see everyone fight each other.

What you think is a fault may be a good point to someone else.
Just because you choose to follow a series for it's art or fights, doesn't mean plot holes won't become plot holes.
Lol, what kind of argument is that?

A series may have been known for it's fights and art but doesn't mean it wasn't attempting to objectively tell a story. This series was, very clearly.
I would understand if this argument was made for One Punchman since it's a comedy. So story requirements take a backseat in it's case.
 

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Bleach, while it has astonishing style and some genuinely strong character writing, is filled with time wasted on random fights with grunts that add nothing to the story or themes, and as Nemesis said is filled with instances where logic out and out collapses to play into a narrative turn.

Those are objective faults.
If it's sick then nothing matters.

And bleach is always sick
 
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