Isn't it better to say that Abilities fit the positions, what I mean is that the position is just a description of what a person does in a squad, so depending on what their abilities are they tend to fit certain positions more or less.
In the case of a light bearer, the Lighthouse does the work, not the light bearer. HOWEVER a person's skill, and intelligence has to be up to snuff. Rak would really suck as a light bearer, so would Urek.
On the other hand, Urek would also suck as a Spear bearer although it could be very interesting to watch him try it out if you wanna blow up a city. Other people who would not work well as light bearers are fishermen like Anak, and Endorsi. Surprisingly Rak could be a scout if he really had too. He has evolved to be more mature lately.
My Main man Bam Could be trained to be a Lightbearer with a lot of effort. I think his innate power as he grows would best suit the Fisherman and his current wave controller position.
One last thought on BAM as a spear bearer. The way Bam fashioned a Teleportation Arrow out of Shinsoo is very revealing. I can easily imagine him fashioning A hugely Explosive Arrow powered by one of his thorns. So an arrow is not a Spear, but in terms of effect there would be no real difference, so I will tag Bam as potentially able to fill that position too.
Blog post and lore stuff generally make the point that urek is amazing at all positions. His main one is fisherman of course but urek is still character that has been said to excel at everything. As in, based on the lore urek is in fact an AMAZING spearbearer.
A few comments on the positions you mention:
Scouts are a position where you are supposed to jump headfirst into enemy territory and do intelligence job while risking fighting multiple powerful people at once. Usually you'd have an observer working in conjunction with the team's lightbearer. Rak has high physical strength and the capacity to handle multiple enemies along with drawing enemy fire.... But whatever maturity he has gained is still not actual analytical skill. His high physical performance would make him a passable fisherman though.
As for fishermen... Bam is not really suited for that. Fishermen are a teams main offensive force and are supposed to be able to take fire from multiple enemies at once. That is why exceptionally high physical capacity is a staple of fishermen. Bam doesn't really have the strength or physical endurance to take damage from people in his tier to protect his team. Bam is still a rather frail character. Bam's comfort zone when fighting is basically mid to long range, the exact opposite of a fisherman. Bam's only move in close range is basically the floral butterfly but that is a risky move for someone like bam and should be generally left for a last resort.
I suppose bam making a shinsoo bow suggests some potential for bam as a spearbearer but otherwise bam probably can't throw a spear for shit. It's hard to say if anything bam can throw at this stage like an arrow or spear would have any meaningful force behind it since bam isn't exactly physically powerful. It's too early, and optimistic, to say bam would be competent at this. The bow and arrow are likely similar to the arie sword he drew out at the hell train. The result of a power from some soul inside but at the time he is almost certainly very incompetent at it. weapon wise odds are that what suits bam the most at the orb and probably a needle. Not because he has the black march but rather because a needle is a weapon which is relatively accessible to most people in the tower.
Blog post and lore stuff generally make the point that urek is amazing at all positions. His main one is fisherman of course but urek is still character that has been said to excel at everything. As in, based on the lore urek is in fact an AMAZING spearbearer.
A few comments on the positions you mention:
Scouts are a position where you are supposed to jump headfirst into enemy territory and do intelligence job while risking fighting multiple powerful people at once. Usually you'd have an observer working in conjunction with the team's lightbearer. Rak has high physical strength and the capacity to handle multiple enemies along with drawing enemy fire.... But whatever maturity he has gained is still not actual analytical skill. His high physical performance would make him a passable fisherman though.
As for fishermen... Bam is not really suited for that. Fishermen are a teams main offensive force and are supposed to be able to take fire from multiple enemies at once. That is why exceptionally high physical capacity is a staple of fishermen. Bam doesn't really have the strength or physical endurance to take damage from people in his tier to protect his team. Bam is still a rather frail character. Bam's comfort zone when fighting is basically mid to long range, the exact opposite of a fisherman. Bam's only move in close range is basically the floral butterfly but that is a risky move for someone like bam and should be generally left for a last resort.
I suppose bam making a shinsoo bow suggests some potential for bam as a spearbearer but otherwise bam probably can't throw a spear for shit. It's hard to say if anything bam can throw at this stage like an arrow or spear would have any meaningful force behind it since bam isn't exactly physically powerful. It's too early, and optimistic, to say bam would be competent at this. The bow and arrow are likely similar to the arie sword he drew out at the hell train. The result of a power from some soul inside but at the time he is almost certainly very incompetent at it. weapon wise odds are that what suits bam the most at the orb and probably a needle. Not because he has the black march but rather because a needle is a weapon which is relatively accessible to most people in the tower.
Actually Bam's physical endurance now is quite comparable to any other member of the team, and perhaps even more. Evankhell and the Old martial arts master he trained with have really made a great impact on the old Bam.
Regarding Urek, in spite of lore and such, The experience on the FOD demonstrates that Urek is not a wave controller or else he is average to poor at it at the least. I also cannot see him as a Lightbearer, not impossible, but another thing his temperament probably won't go with. As for being a spearbearer, as I said he'd destroy a city, so yes he could do it (he'd be way over powered). But why a guy who shoots laser beams from his fingers wants to waste time throwing a spear feels odd to me.
You have to read between the lines in what I was saying so I am at fault for not being very clear. As per Bam, He really wouldn't be throwing any spears, but he can deliver the same impact by fusing energy from a thorn into a shinsoo arrow,what I'm trying to say is thatit is a distinction lacking a difference.
Bam as Scout is something he has already done before, I recall a time when he went on a tear and defeated the team's opponents all by himself. Don't under sell bam he is an excellent one on one fighter just using his fists and shinsoo body strengthening. If he used the Thorn, he could wreck great destructive force. He hasn't been a Wimp for a very long time now. Right now Bam has added the Red Thryssa Saber to his repertoir. I feel he'll be okay as a scout.
I won't say much about Rak since he wouldn't be a great scout, I will say though that in his miniature form he has been able to sneek around and his strength is greater than average. He has also shown more intelligence and discretion lately than in the early days.
Blog post and lore stuff generally make the point that urek is amazing at all positions. His main one is fisherman of course but urek is still character that has been said to excel at everything. As in, based on the lore urek is in fact an AMAZING spearbearer.
I'd really like to see Lightbearer Urek some time.
Scouts are a position where you are supposed to jump headfirst into enemy territory and do intelligence job while risking fighting multiple powerful people at once. Usually you'd have an observer working in conjunction with the team's lightbearer. Rak has high physical strength and the capacity to handle multiple enemies along with drawing enemy fire.... But whatever maturity he has gained is still not actual analytical skill. His high physical performance would make him a passable fisherman though.
Hatsu and Dan never struck me as being particularly analytical though. They're Scouts because they're suited to working alone in enemy territory. I think current Rak can do the same with his rock ability.
As for fishermen... Bam is not really suited for that. Fishermen are a teams main offensive force and are supposed to be able to take fire from multiple enemies at once. That is why exceptionally high physical capacity is a staple of fishermen. Bam doesn't really have the strength or physical endurance to take damage from people in his tier to protect his team. Bam is still a rather frail character. Bam's comfort zone when fighting is basically mid to long range, the exact opposite of a fisherman. Bam's only move in close range is basically the floral butterfly but that is a risky move for someone like bam and should be generally left for a last resort.
I think you're underestimating Baam here. He's pretty good at close combat, espcially with Black March and his Thyrssa upgrades. He could do Fisherman easy. Hell, with all the different Shinsoo techniques he knows, he could probably be a scout too.
Regarding Urek, in spite of lore and such, The experience on the FOD demonstrates that Urek is not a wave controller or else he is average to poor at it at the least. I also cannot see him as a Lightbearer, not impossible, but another thing his temperament probably won't go with. As for being a spearbearer, as I said he'd destroy a city, so yes he could do it (he'd be way over powered). But why a guy who shoots laser beams from his fingers wants to waste time throwing a spear feels odd to me.
I'd really like to see Lightbearer Urek some time.
Hatsu and Dan never struck me as being particularly analytical though. They're Scouts because they're suited to working alone in enemy territory. I think current Rak can do the same with his rock ability.
I think you're underestimating Baam here. He's pretty good at close combat, espcially with Black March and his Thyrssa upgrades. He could do Fisherman easy. Hell, with all the different Shinsoo techniques he knows, he could probably be a scout too.
Yeah, gotta wonder if he even has a lighthouse worthy of him. Lightbearers seems like they heavily depend on hardware... I suppose they could always compensate to some degree with quantity.
There definitely are variations in terms of scouts and how they perform their functions. Dan isn't exactly good at combat but he can sneak in and out of somewhere unlike anyone else. hatsu is almost certainly more combat oriented, though i don't think he regularly takes that position. We've never even seen him use an observer... Either we have never sen him scout because we haven't seen floor tests in a while or perhaps he switched positions. That, or perhaps you can scout without an observer, though that seems like a third rate scout.
Bam does know martial arts and is presumably pretty good at it, but that's besides the point. Bam doesn't have the specks to take damage a ton of punishment (like say, androsi or kallavan) and he ultimately excels at mid to long range combat. Position wise fishermen are meant to take damage and cover for their team while delivering punishment. Bam remains frail for someone in his tier, and probably for people even beneath his tier... and rankers in general. Nothing we have seen evidences bam's physical strength keeping up with bam's other stats.
There definitely are variations in terms of scouts and how they perform their functions. Dan isn't exactly good at combat but he can sneak in and out of somewhere unlike anyone else. hatsu is almost certainly more combat oriented, though i don't think he regularly takes that position. We've never even seen him use an observer... Either we have never sen him scout because we haven't seen floor tests in a while or perhaps he switched positions. That, or perhaps you can scout without an observer, though that seems like a third rate scout.
Hatsu is more like the type who sneaks in and kills enemy stragglers. We've seen him do this before. He presumably doesn't use an Observer because his team doesn't have a Light Bearer and Leesoo is doing the work of one.
Bam doesn't have the specks to take damage a ton of punishment (like say, androsi or kallavan)and he ultimately excels at mid to long range combat.
If you're using Zahard Princesses and monsters like Kallavan as the standard then no one has the specs to be a Fisherman. I'm not even sure where you get the idea that Fishermen have to be tanks.
Baam, with shinsoo enhancement and the Thorn has excellent physical attributes and he's shown to be just as good at close range(especially since he got the Thyrssas) than at medium or long range. Being able to fight at two ranges at once makes him eminently qualified to be a Fisherman.
Actually Bam's physical endurance now is quite comparable to any other member of the team, and perhaps even more. Evankhell and the Old martial arts master he trained with have really made a great impact on the old Bam.
Regarding Urek, in spite of lore and such, The experience on the FOD demonstrates that Urek is not a wave controller or else he is average to poor at it at the least. I also cannot see him as a Lightbearer, not impossible, but another thing his temperament probably won't go with. As for being a spearbearer, as I said he'd destroy a city, so yes he could do it (he'd be way over powered). But why a guy who shoots laser beams from his fingers wants to waste time throwing a spear feels odd to me.
You have to read between the lines in what I was saying so I am at fault for not being very clear. As per Bam, He really wouldn't be throwing any spears, but he can deliver the same impact by fusing energy from a thorn into a shinsoo arrow,what I'm trying to say is thatit is a distinction lacking a difference.
Bam as Scout is something he has already done before, I recall a time when he went on a tear and defeated the team's opponents all by himself. Don't under sell bam he is an excellent one on one fighter just using his fists and shinsoo body strengthening. If he used the Thorn, he could wreck great destructive force. He hasn't been a Wimp for a very long time now. Right now Bam has added the Red Thryssa Saber to his repertoir. I feel he'll be okay as a scout.
I won't say much about Rak since he wouldn't be a great scout, I will say though that in his miniature form he has been able to sneek around and his strength is greater than average. He has also shown more intelligence and discretion lately than in the early days.
But... based on what? I don't deny that bam's endurance has improved, my point is merely that its probably not nearly where his other specks at. The series even during the cage arc made the point that bam is not as physically powerful as a ranker... Bam doesn't even have physical feats of endurance or strength during this arc. At least not meaningful ones. You have the baragav thing but... that's a reinforcement feat, not a strength feat. Bam's reinforcement being higher than a c class regular isn't a feat. The martial arts dude certainly had an impact but where the bulk of bam's improvement seems to be at is the floral butterfly, which is in no shape, form or context a feat of physical strength. It's a CQC technique which uses literally zero physical strength and barely even requires contact with an enemy.
Bam having the specks to be a fisherman right now would specifically mean that there are people in bam's tier whom bam could beat in a fistfight. Lets assume base bam for arguments sake. And with no thorns, revolution, shinwonryu, black march and shinsoo control techniques. Just his good old fists and however much reinforcement he can manage. Can he win a fistfight against androsi? Against the ranker at the ranking office? How about either of those ranker canine twins he fought? I suppose there is a chance bam would be too fast for androsi but there is also a good chance she won't even feel his fists. Then the rankers... does anyone believe bam's fist would do much of anything? Now, in less restricted scenarios bam can indeed fight on and win against rankers without resorting to revolution or shinwonryu, evidenced by the fact that he has done it. BUT if the amount of rankers base bam can beat in a straight up fistfight is zero then he simply doesn't have the specks to be competitive at that level as a fisherman. In the end the bulk of bam's physical feats rely on non fisherman stuff or on him fighting against so much laughably weaker than him that the feat itself is trivial. Bam simply doesn't have meaningful strength feats against people in his tier. Otherwise he'd probably be engaging high rankers in fist fights by now.
Erh, how does the FOD demonstrate urek is not a good wave controller? And... also, how is that different from any other spear bearer? Eduan is the gold standard for spearbearers and he shoots lightning from his fingertips. Why is he wasting time with spears if he can do that? Spears are a powerful and useful weapon within the tower's context and finger lasers do not replace them.
The bow and arrow definitely opens up some possibilities for bam though that really depends on whether this is something he will be able to do in the future again. It's entirely possible that bam will soon simply burn out the soul power within him and not devour more souls to replenish it. Unless burning souls means something different here. And even if he does keep it, there is the skill thing to consider, he probably needs a few years until he can have the precision to act like a proper spearbearer. Evankhel seems pretty competent at throwing spears for instance but he makes the point she isn't really one.
intelligence and discretion seems like a bit of overestimation of rak in that regard. That said, rak definitely has the specks and abilities to fulfill a number of functions in a team. Speckwise rak can fulfill the roles of a spearbearer, fisherman (high base physical strength and that rock armor probably would be useful), defender (since his shinsoo quality is a shield)... And of course he can also perform well in the physical part of being a scout. But rak is simply too loud and impatient to do any actual intelligence gathering.
Hatsu is more like the type who sneaks in and kills enemy stragglers. We've seen him do this before. He presumably doesn't use an Observer because his team doesn't have a Light Bearer and Leesoo is doing the work of one.
If you're using Zahard Princesses and monsters like Kallavan as the standard then no one has the specs to be a Fisherman. I'm not even sure where you get the idea that Fishermen have to be tanks.
Baam, with shinsoo enhancement and the Thorn has excellent physical attributes and he's shown to be just as good at close range(especially since he got the Thyrssas) than at medium or long range. Being able to fight at two ranges at once makes him eminently qualified to be a Fisherman.
But... without an observer he can't do most of what scouts do. observers are literally a part of a scout's job description. Going in and picking off stragglers and whatnot sounds more like something a fisherman would do.
Sure, bam can boost himself with a number of powerups but that is largely irrelevant to his physical strength and endurance. Physical strength and reinforcement are independent stats. And overall physical capacity depends on pretty much the combination of those two. For bam to function as a fisherman in his tier he'd need his low physical strength to be compensated for with his reinforcement alone basically. Which would be a rather gargantuan feat considering reinforcement is not even his shinsoo quality.
Granted, there are variations to the fisherman position. You have your physical powerhouses but you also have people who use needles, reels, hooks... and swords are probably mostly a fisherman's weapon. Reels and hooks are mid or longer ranged weapons which bam presumably has zero training on. Meaning that the only fisherman variations bam could possibly be are the ones that have a greater physical component to them. As in using a sword, needle or his body. Granted the black march works at a bit of a range but if bam is going to be a fisherman that uses needles he needs to be good with them in general, not just at the convenient range black march allows. But even if bam goes for a fisherman spot using weapons... he still has the same risks as fishermen who fight with their bare fists. Which in the context of a fisherman implies being in the middle of a battle, taking damage, covering and protecting your teammates and deliving mostly close to medium range punishment. granted that fishermen don't necessarily need to be full on tanks BUT they do need substantial capacity to take damage because their spot is literally where the bulk of enemy fire will be at provided the fisherman in question is going its job. A fisherman doesn't have to be princess/kallavan levels of invulnerable BUT he can in no form or context be any degree of frail. take white. He is probably not nearly as physically powerful as kallavan but he sure as fuck can take a punch from him. perhaps even several punches.
Also note that positions don't apply exactly to actual battles, positions are mostly meant for floor tests and hunting shineuh. In combat between people the areas will grow increasingly grey. Though i'd maintain bam doesn't have the specks to succeed as a fisherman. He lacks the physical strength for it. he lacks the shinsoo qualities for it. He has the orb, which is the furthest thing from a fisherman's shinsoo quality rather than having a needle, hook, sword or even reinforcement. And he doesn't have any skill that we know of with fisherman weapons.
A Ranker with shinsu strenghtening would molest Enforsi neg difficulty and so is current Baam (without any buff).
We saw Baam exchanging arm strikes with R's twin very briefly and in the fight against Pan, he blocked his fist before unleashing Fast Skip. He may not be quite at Ranker level, but his physical stats would allow him to stand few moves before losing pace.
I'm not saying that Baam (without any buff) can perform the fisherman position compared to foes of his level. I agree about most of your post but I think it's still interesting to recall these facts.
Reinforcement is a standard technique used by everyone, it's not comparable to shinsu qualities and shapes. Also, until now, Baam only discovered a shinsu shape (Orb) fitting him, not a shinsu quality (which is basically an element) to use as internal quality control to boost his physical stats.
Furtheremore, Kallavan noted something interesting in his fight against Tonki, ancient Rankers know how to use shinsu suiting their traits and attributes, this means that the new Rankers (few hundreds to few thousands years old) mostly don't know and/or still didn't discover shinsu qualities/shapes fitting them.
Giving their rarity, I don't think qualities can be used as an argument for this kind of comparisons.
Why people argue that someone with Jahad blood + FH DNA has less potential with someone who just inherited the DNA of two FHs ? This doesn't make sens.
Technically, Jahad is also one of the 13 GW even though he's quite above the others by being the king. Having Jahad's blood doesn't make one an unbeatable monster in the tower as compared to having another 13 GW's blood (Anak with jahad's blood made a draw with Ran who has Edhan's blood).
One therefore becomes special if he or she has the blood of more than one irregular:
- Maschenny has the blood of 2 irregulars ( Jahad + Edhan) and is in the top 100
- Enne has the blood of 3 irregulars and so is in the top 10 (Gustang + Euresia + Jahad)
- Baam stands above all of that by having the blood of 2 irregulars + being himself an irregular + having the thorn of an irregular (Enryu). It becomes like Baam has the powers of 4 irregulars at once!!!
Isn't it better to say that Abilities fit the positions, what I mean is that the position is just a description of what a person does in a squad, so depending on what their abilities are they tend to fit certain positions more or less.
In the case of a light bearer, the Lighthouse does the work, not the light bearer. HOWEVER a person's skill, and intelligence has to be up to snuff. Rak would really suck as a light bearer, so would Urek.
On the other hand, Urek would also suck as a Spear bearer although it could be very interesting to watch him try it out if you wanna blow up a city. Other people who would not work well as light bearers are fishermen like Anak, and Endorsi. Surprisingly Rak could be a scout if he really had too. He has evolved to be more mature lately.
My Main man Bam Could be trained to be a Lightbearer with a lot of effort. I think his innate power as he grows would best suit the Fisherman and his current wave controller position.
One last thought on BAM as a spear bearer. The way Bam fashioned a Teleportation Arrow out of Shinsoo is very revealing. I can easily imagine him fashioning A hugely Explosive Arrow powered by one of his thorns. So an arrow is not a Spear, but in terms of effect there would be no real difference, so I will tag Bam as potentially able to fill that position too.
Blog post and lore stuff generally make the point that urek is amazing at all positions. His main one is fisherman of course but urek is still character that has been said to excel at everything. As in, based on the lore urek is in fact an AMAZING spearbearer.
A few comments on the positions you mention:
Scouts are a position where you are supposed to jump headfirst into enemy territory and do intelligence job while risking fighting multiple powerful people at once. Usually you'd have an observer working in conjunction with the team's lightbearer. Rak has high physical strength and the capacity to handle multiple enemies along with drawing enemy fire.... But whatever maturity he has gained is still not actual analytical skill. His high physical performance would make him a passable fisherman though.
As for fishermen... Bam is not really suited for that. Fishermen are a teams main offensive force and are supposed to be able to take fire from multiple enemies at once. That is why exceptionally high physical capacity is a staple of fishermen. Bam doesn't really have the strength or physical endurance to take damage from people in his tier to protect his team. Bam is still a rather frail character. Bam's comfort zone when fighting is basically mid to long range, the exact opposite of a fisherman. Bam's only move in close range is basically the floral butterfly but that is a risky move for someone like bam and should be generally left for a last resort.
I suppose bam making a shinsoo bow suggests some potential for bam as a spearbearer but otherwise bam probably can't throw a spear for shit. It's hard to say if anything bam can throw at this stage like an arrow or spear would have any meaningful force behind it since bam isn't exactly physically powerful. It's too early, and optimistic, to say bam would be competent at this. The bow and arrow are likely similar to the arie sword he drew out at the hell train. The result of a power from some soul inside but at the time he is almost certainly very incompetent at it. weapon wise odds are that what suits bam the most at the orb and probably a needle. Not because he has the black march but rather because a needle is a weapon which is relatively accessible to most people in the tower.
TBH Rak has very acute instincts which is more relevant than analythical capacity for Scouts. Lightbearers analyze stuff, Scouts need to react quickly. So I do think Rak only fails at Wave Controlling and Lightbearing atm.
I do think Anak and Endorsi would be OK Spear Bearers If they had to. I really think that regardless of one's ability they have a team/battle role they Will fall into when teamworking. And that special positions sometimes enable fulfilling more than one role at same time.
Suppose the following: a Fisherman that moves undetected and can fight enemies while being tough, hard to pin down and hit, like a ninja moving through the shadows. Normally one either moves undetected and catches people offguard, relying on cleverness to get off hard situations, or they simply wreck havoc and fight enemies Head on. But a ninja, although a highly skilled and more restrict position (you can't be an undercover Giant/dinossaur) does work both ways at the same time. This is what I see going on for Special positions in ToG.
Yihwa's flames are definitely not a physical atk, she is offensively Wave Controlling no doubt about It. But while a Shinsoo shield (Blue Oar) is an active ability that only partially makes up for physical vulnerability, Yeon's "true fire" burns anything all around the person, creating a situation where one attacks and defends in melee as well as WC's mid range atks. It can burn through any defense, because It burns Shinsoo itself, so they are like Megaman's big floor Spikes ir Mario's abyss drop: no matter your HP, your strength, you die there bro. It's not an insta-win, I'm not saying this, but it's like a Thorn armor that injures the attacker If they come to melee range, and hardly someone won't take any damage from It. I dare say only Shinworyu should have a higher priority when conflicting forces, and IF It does.
Therefore, a "burning person" from Yeon Clan should be able to freely manouver through these 2 positions at same time, although without a Fire Shield I think nobody else should be able to fit both at same time. Not even Evankhell, without the true fire into play, should be able to. Yihwa molten that Mad Dog's chain jail mimesis, she CAN be a Fisherman with It, Just like Evk.
As for Irregulars, in my head cannon irregulars not only fit the bill for any regular position (although they have a favorite one) but that they have by standard several Special positions they can actually learn. Just like regular positions they should have varying skills on them, being more talented in some than others, but we know for sure Gustang is the anima of invisible manta Ray and also the master Wonsul of the Tower. He also knows spells, workshop Engineering and soul workings, as seen in FoD. I doubt any FH wouldn't be an excelent Spear Bearer, WC, any of Basic positions. Bam must learn them too eventually.
However, we still don't know How does one substitute a Lighthouse necessity. I mean, Bam has floating skills in Blue Oar, which he can use to lift others like a Lighthouse; he has fast-skip to paralyze an enemy like a Lighthouse does; he can teleport people like a Lighthouse would; he only misses the ability to see far and calculate stuff, which happens to be the core of Lightbearing IMO. SIU likely has that figured but won't introduce yet before AA starts doing Spear Bearer work, so that he doesn't feel redundant. And by then Rak Will be actively a Defender too, I presume.
But yes, I agree Bam's current teleport bow isn't quite a Spearbearing but an alternative handling of the same role: you shorten or lengthen distances, removing or gaining the SB's main advantage. Whatever this is, It fits my 2nd group of special positions: alternative same roles as Basic ones, such as swordfighting substitutes Fisherman with other skills and Sorcerer controls the fight with spells rather than Shinsoo flow. But that's already stretching the post too long.
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, But if we look at Bam's fight with Elaine, that wasn't a purely wave controller fight, same with Bam's fight with Gado, using the Red Thryssa, Frankly I think he would be acceptable at least as a fill-in fisherman. It feels like SIU has been quietly transforming Bam into a more complete fighter over the years. Obviously he can go in against very powerful fighters and wreck some havock.
A Ranker with shinsu strenghtening would molest Enforsi neg difficulty and so is current Baam (without any buff).
We saw Baam exchanging arm strikes with R's twin very briefly and in the fight against Pan, he blocked his fist before unleashing Fast Skip. He may not be quite at Ranker level, but his physical stats would allow him to stand few moves before losing pace.
I'm not saying that Baam (without any buff) can perform the fisherman position compared to foes of his level. I agree about most of your post but I think it's still interesting to recall these facts.
Reinforcement is a standard technique used by everyone, it's not comparable to shinsu qualities and shapes. Also, until now, Baam only discovered a shinsu shape (Orb) fitting him, not a shinsu quality (which is basically an element) to use as internal quality control to boost his physical stats.
Furtheremore, Kallavan noted something interesting in his fight against Tonki, ancient Rankers know how to use shinsu suiting their traits and attributes, this means that the new Rankers (few hundreds to few thousands years old) mostly don't know and/or still didn't discover shinsu qualities/shapes fitting them.
Giving their rarity, I don't think qualities can be used as an argument for this kind of comparisons.
He'd molest endorsi? What? But bam hasn't even hit puberty yet.
Reinforcement is absolutely also a potential shinsoo quality. As in, your shinsoo can ve suited to it in the same way it can be suited to making orbs or spears. We saw that bit specifically with miseng after the hidden floor arc when androsi gave her a clicker. The ha family presumably has reinforcement shinsoo qualities.
I have no idea if non element stuff can be used for internal quality shinsoo control. The translation a the time was a bit iffy imo so its not necessarily all that reliable.
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, But if we look at Bam's fight with Elaine, that wasn't a purely wave controller fight, same with Bam's fight with Gado, using the Red Thryssa, Frankly I think he would be acceptable at least as a fill-in fisherman. It feels like SIU has been quietly transforming Bam into a more complete fighter over the years. Obviously he can go in against very powerful fighters and wreck some havock.
Imo the Thryssas are Bam's ticket into Fisherman territory. They act as regeneratable weapons, both for attack and defense. And his latest Shinsoo reinforcement that tops Blood tamara also. As well as all his progress with Hwajepgongpasol (Floral Wave), which is a melee skill. Bam is fit enough as a Fisherman by low end Ranker standards.
I wouldn't say the floral butterfly is a fisherman technique. Fisherman, either through weapons or hand to hand combat, is a very physical position which requires you to be pretty much in the middle of a battle. Hence, the talents or skills associated with it are physical. The floral butterfly in turn requires the user to be highly capable at flow and reverse flow control. Which are usually a wave controller's talents, even if the technique works at close range. Of course, a fisherman with the technique would benefit greatly from it in an scenario where he can't overcome an enemy with strength ( like jinsung vs kallavan, assuming jinsung is a fisherman).
Reinforcement is absolutely also a potential shinsoo quality. As in, your shinsoo can ve suited to it in the same way it can be suited to making orbs or spears. We saw that bit specifically with miseng after the hidden floor arc when androsi gave her a clicker. The ha family presumably has reinforcement shinsoo qualities.
Shinsu reinforcement is just an skill that "everyone" can use to strenghten physical stats, this alone proves that it has nothing to do with shinsu shapes and qualities (that only rare special people possess anyway).
Miseng's quality is sudden shinsu "bursts", she can greatly amplies her shinsu power for an instant and it doesn't apply to just shinsu strenghtening but any other shinsu skills (as shown when she boosted Endorsi's attack against Charlie).
Technically, Jahad is also one of the 13 GW even though he's quite above the others by being the king. Having Jahad's blood doesn't make one an unbeatable monster in the tower as compared to having another 13 GW's blood (Anak with jahad's blood made a draw with Ran who has Edhan's blood).
One therefore becomes special if he or she has the blood of more than one irregular:
- Maschenny has the blood of 2 irregulars ( Jahad + Edhan) and is in the top 100
- Enne has the blood of 3 irregulars and so is in the top 10 (Gustang + Euresia + Jahad)
- Baam stands above all of that by having the blood of 2 irregulars + being himself an irregular + having the thorn of an irregular (Enryu). It becomes like Baam has the powers of 4 irregulars at once!!!
Personally, I think heredity is a very complex matter. You may be the descendant of two extremely powerful beings, yet there is a chance that you'll be born with weak or no potential at all. In contrast, you may be born from two fodder people and have a super DNA somehow.
This fact was emphasized many times. For example Elaine, the daughter of a not-special-branch, who has even greater talent than her main family descendants or Daleet who was born in a family with no Rankers, yet he became a Ranker himself.
What's more so is that from the thousands of direct descendants of every FH, only few have the potential to become a top 300.
What I was adressing is rather the argument used to discredit Yuri compared to the Ha twins (just because they're descendant of two FHs).
Funnily enough, the two examples you used other than Baam (Mascenny, Enne) are both Jahad princesses and SIU explained in a blogpost that princesses stand on a whole another level compared to direct descendants (barring few exceptions ofc).
This is probably due to how Jahad's blood is passed. The process most likely allows the princesses to have a way higher chance of inheriting tons of Jahad's power as opposed to normal FH offsprings.
I don't know why so much insistence on Baam's skills as a fisherman has already been made clear that when it comes to a high level fight, he is always at a disadvantage in that position. Against regulars he always did well because he is an irregular, but when he faced Data Zahard, he only managed to stand out when he took the position of a WC. Baam's skills as a fisherman depend on his strengthening of Shinsoo, which differs from people like Yuri, Androssi, Cha, Novick etc, people who besides the strong strengthening of Shinsoo, have a high physical ability.
Regarding Shinsoo's quality, remember that it is a type of Shinsoo manipulation used by ancient rankers, Kallavan made this very clear during his fight with the Dowon wall keeper. That is, it is quite capable of most of the rankers that we have seen to date, they do not even use the Shinsoo manipulation suited to them and that training their Shinsoo quality is something specific to privileged people, who can be trained by old rankers (such as members of high level of the 10 families).
Baam is still learning and growing as he climbs. He didn't start out very strong and had a frail body. He became more like a Fisherman after FUG took him in and started learning martial arts from Jinsung. Piercing Wave technique is actually a Fisherman technique. Baam will most likely continue to evolve physically as he climbs the tower. He probably still won't reach the skill of people like Jahad but I suspect at the pace he is growing it's only a matter of time before he becomes even more proficient at hand to hand than even those in the Ha family with the exception of the FH. By the end of ToG he will have become so much stronger that his physical abilities will appear to have reached the point where he can fight even the strongest of Regular fisherman.
Umm I think SIU has shown to us that Baam regularly evolved and be able to excel outside of his main position, the wave controller.
SIU I think has planned baam to be like urek that can excel in almost any position (I'm not sure though for light bearer). But the fact that now, baam has possessed 2 new skill + 1 old skill that related to close range battle :
- red claw (from red demon)
- blue shield (from blue demon)
And this is too:
- butterfly palm skill or whatever (sry, I forget the name again)
Means that baam now can be considered as FISHERMAN (as he can fight in close rang). This is strengthen by the fact when he fight against the clown ranker (I forget the name) in the beginning of the nest battle, baam only fight by using red claw, a close range battle.
Ok, so that's one thing. As for the other proof that SIU planned to make baam has ability in other position is through the Archer mode that make him as SPEAR BEARER. Like what you guys has mentioned above, this Archer mode is similar like lepavuv ability (shinshu shot skill from long range). I think being a spear bearer has many form (it can be bow, guns, etc).
So, maybe baam will get another teacher that excel in light bearer (like Sophia tan maybe, she is excel in light bearer) to teach him that.
