One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Shasha23]

Luffy definitely has blood in him, that's the basis of gear 2...

As for logias and fishman karate... Logias are intangible and become their element but the explanation of how haki targets them, as in allowing users to target their "substance" suggests that their bodies are still there. It's not certain but it pretty likely that even without haki some forms of fishman karate are effective. maybe specific fruits under specific circumstances could counter it though. Like sand absorbing humidity in the environment or fire/magma getting rid of water before it reaches the target.

Thats the inconsistency sine he should be total rubber, thats why people like Crocodile are shocked every time he bleeds.

If Jinbe can affect rubber then he can affect anything!

 

[Nie Li]

Thats the inconsistency sine he should be total rubber, thats why people like Crocodile are shocked every time he bleeds.

If Jinbe can affect rubber then he can affect anything!

It may be just my memory but I don't remember anyone being surprised that Luffy bleeds, and he does bleed a lot in every important fight.

 

[Shasha23]

It may be just my memory but I don't remember anyone being surprised that Luffy bleeds, and he does bleed a lot in every important fight.

Crocodile commented on that Luffy shouldn't bleed since he is rubber

 

[Nie Li]

Crocodile commented on that Luffy shouldn't bleed since he is rubber

After looking it up, I see now where you got that from. Chapter 544 from the manga.

It's a misconception. I'll try to explain why.

The scene you're referencing happened during the Impel Down arc, by that time, Crocodile had already seen Luffy bleed multiple times, and it was even a plotpoint back at Arabasta (when Luffy used blood instead of water to be able to hit Crocodile in their third fight), so it wouldn't make much sense that Luffy bleeding would surprise him.

What surprised Crocodile is that Luffy bled from Blackbeard grabbing him and slamming him against the floor. Why? Because Luffy is made out of rubber and physical hits like going face first against the ground should not make him bleed. Even if Blackbeard had used haki he wouldn't have infused the ground with it, so that hit should definitely not have hurt a man of rubber (and haki wasn't seen as something as widely spread as it is now). The hit against the ground hurt Luffy because Blackbeard was grabbing him and thus nullifying his rubber properties by turning off his DF (thanks to the Yami Yami no Mi).

Thus, Crocodile was surprised at Luffy taking damage from that, rather than just Luffy having blood inside.

 

[Shasha23]

After looking it up, I see now where you got that from. Chapter 544 from the manga.

It's a misconception. I'll try to explain why.

The scene you're referencing happened during the Impel Down arc, by that time, Crocodile had already seen Luffy bleed multiple times, and it was even a plotpoint back at Arabasta (when Luffy used blood instead of water to be able to hit Crocodile in their third fight), so it wouldn't make much sense that Luffy bleeding would surprise him.

What surprised Crocodile is that Luffy bled from Blackbeard grabbing him and slamming him against the floor. Why? Because Luffy is made out of rubber and physical hits like going face first against the ground should not make him bleed. Even if Blackbeard had used haki he wouldn't have infused the ground with it, so that hit should definitely not have hurt a man of rubber (and haki wasn't seen as something as widely spread as it is now). The hit against the ground hurt Luffy because Blackbeard was grabbing him and thus nullifying his rubber properties by turning off his DF (thanks to the Yami Yami no Mi).

Thus, Crocodile was surprised at Luffy taking damage from that, rather than just Luffy having blood inside.

I understand all that, thats why im calling it Oda's inconsistency, in the first place rubber shouldn't bleed but since Luffy is a DF user he should only bleed from being hit by an attack that counters his ability, thats why Crocodile was shocked Luffy would bleed from being slammed to the ground, but that still doesnt change the fact Luffy is rubber just as Daz iz metal, Ace is fire or Kirazu is light, their body have been permanently changed and they shouldnt have blood flowing in them since it wouldnt make sense


.

 

[Nie Li]

I understand all that, thats why im calling it Oda's inconsistency, in the first place rubber shouldn't bleed but since Luffy is a DF user he should only bleed from being hit by an attack that counters his ability, thats why Crocodile was shocked Luffy would bleed from being slammed to the ground, but that still doesnt change the fact Luffy is rubber just as Daz iz metal, Ace is fire or Kirazu is light, their body have been permanently changed and they shouldnt have blood flowing in them since it wouldnt make sense


.

Logias are a different matter since they switch from both states.

I see that it can be considered inconsistent but it's still not why Crocodile was surprised by seeing his blood. Crocodile knew Luffy bleeds and he wasn't surprised when he first saw it. Nor anyone else.

Luffy's blood vessels are confirmed to be made out of rubber, so it's likely that, just like tears, blood and body fluids in general remain fluids as a norm despite their paramecia fruits.

 

[kkck]

Luffy has been bleeding heavily for nigh 1000 chapters. He has bleed enough blood for 100 people. The guy is practically a quentin tarantino character. It's utterly absurd to suggest it is in any way, shape, form or context an inconsistensy that luffy bleeds. That on top of the number of times luffy bleeding has been a major plot point. Not only when luffy used his blood to punch crocodile but also how important luffy's blood transfusion in fishman island and how important it continues to be for gear 2 and apparently even gear 4 (since there is vapor coming out of luffy).

As for logias, they are not that different from luffy an have as much blood inside them as literally any other creature in this series. It's just a matter of being able to make contact with their body's substance.

 

[M3J]

Thats the thing though but Luffy is also rubber and he shouldn't have water or blood in him but it did work on him, Oda is pretty inconsistent like that, you have sometimes where Luffy bleeds out and yet other time characters are shocked at why Luffy is bleeding since he is rubber, im pretty sure Fishman karate can land on anybody since they are alive and is probably better at dealing with ability users than haki.

I think it's because rubber isn't completely elastic, but Luffy being rubber doesn't mean he shouldn't have water or blood inside. His body takes on the form of the fruit thing, but it doesn't change it to that fruit name completely. Or at least, his body changes its makeup to rubber. I think characters get shocked as rubber is supposed to withstand most impacts, and Luffy shouldn't bleed from a punch and whatnot.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

The interesting to think about though is, would it work on a logia? Luffy's a paramecia, but logias handle attacks differently. If you punch Luffy, it'll land, but if you punch Ace, it'd go through his body. Could fishman karate prevent that from happening?

If you do it with haki you’ll connect obviously so you’d have that effect but I doubt a FM without haki will be able to do it

 

[M3J]

Yeah but I'm talking about without haki. With haki you can land hits as long as you hit the body.

 

[LadyVados]

If Kinemon can wound Laido then Mihawk can vaporise him.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2020 ---

I still think Mihawk is as strong as Prime Garp so a tier above the current Yonko.

Mihawk took no damage whatsoever during his fight with Vista despite not paying attention.

If Kaido were in the same situation and tried to fight Vista he would definitely not be walking away without some injuries.

 

[HereNThere]

Shouldn't we wait to see Kaido actually get serious before making these claims? He's still clearly not taking anything seriously.

He can be cut, but that doesn't automatically mean he's suddenly incapable of fighting or that it makes him weaker than anyone who could cut him.

 

[LadyVados]

Shouldn't we wait to see Kaido actually get serious before making these claims? He's still clearly not taking anything seriously.

He can be cut, but that doesn't automatically mean he's suddenly incapable of fighting.

The problem is I don’t see Kinemon ever cutting Mihawk in a million years.

Mihawk was less serious than Kaido was against Vista and Vista was stronger than Kinemon yet he did not even get a single scratch.

 

[HereNThere]

The problem is I don’t see Kinemon ever cutting Mihawk in a million years.

Mihawk was less serious than Kaido was against Vista and Vista was stronger than Kinemon yet he did not even get a single scratch.

Kinemon is just as capable of cutting Mihawk as he is Kaido, but he won't because the two are completely different characters with different abilities, move sets, and most importantly, personalities.

Kaido, like Big Mom, is both careless and cocky. He is lackadaisical around opponents he doesn't respect or doesn't think much of. We literally saw the same thing earlier in the arc when Kaido got tagged by Luffy. That's just the type of character that he is. But it isn't without reason. He's strong as shit. He doesn't have to care because he's never had to and his style of fighting and physical abilities allow for him to do so.

Mihawk, on the flip side, has a more serious disposition and, from what we've seen, is neither careless nor cocky. However, unlike Kaido, he can't afford be, because he's a regular guy. He can be cut and he can be shot by regular folks. He must rely on his skill with his sword to avoid that type of damage, because he can't just tank like Kaido.

So sure, Kinemon is less likely to cut Mihawk, but it has nothing to do with Kinemon's skills compared to either character or their skills compared to each other.

Mihawk and Vista were clearly not going at each other with the intent to kill. Kinemon and the other Scabbards want nothing more than to kill Kaido and Kaido views the Scabbards as ants marching towards their death. There is a clear difference here.

I see similar arguments used across all manner of match ups and fights in this series. Just because a character can now do something to an opponent, doesn't mean they can now suddenly beat them. That's not how this works. Luffy learned Haki over the timeskip, but he isn't going to suddenly beat an Admiral. He was just given the tools to do so. Same with Advanced Haki. He can now actually harm Kaido and Big Mom, but that doesn't mean it's going to be easy. The same can be said for the Scabbards. They can harm Kaido, but that just means whatever they do won't be completely useless. All that means is that Kaido has to now actually put effort into the fight rather than the bare minimum.

 

[Fox666]

What is this discussion?

Kaido is not invulnerable to Ryou. However a small injury doesn't mean anything.

Whitebeard got stabbed and shot hundreds of times during the Marineford war. Does that means everyone who got a hit at him is stronger than him?

 

[Nie Li]

What is this discussion?

Kaido is not invulnerable to Ryou. However a small injury doesn't mean anything.

Whitebeard got stabbed and shot hundreds of times during the Marineford war. Does that means everyone who got a hit at him is stronger than him?

I don't think that what's troubling some is that "anyone who injures Kaido is stronger than him", but rather that the only trait Kaido has been praised for since his very early introduction has been his invulnerability. It was hyped by the narrator to the point that he was supposedly unable to kill himself and marines had no means to execute him after capturing him more than once.

Whitebeard had different strengths and weaknesses; his durability was never praised in this way and he was very sick on top of that, so it wasn't as meaningful that he accumulated wounds.

 

[LadyVados]

Kaido, like Big Mom, is both careless and cocky. He is lackadaisical around opponents he doesn't respect or doesn't think much of. We literally saw the same thing earlier in the arc when Kaido got tagged by Luffy. That's just the type of character that he is. But it isn't without reason. He's strong as shit. He doesn't have to care because he's never had to and his style of fighting and physical abilities allow for him to do so.

Mihawk, on the flip side, has a more serious disposition and, from what we've seen, is neither careless nor cocky. However, unlike Kaido, he can't afford be, because he's a regular guy. He can be cut and he can be shot by regular folks. He must rely on his skill with his sword to avoid that type of damage, because he can't just tank like Kaido.

And why is Kaido being cocky a good thing and Mihawk taking his opponents seriously and always being careful and fighting smart a bad thing ?

 

[HereNThere]

And why is Kaido being cocky a good thing and Mihawk taking his opponents seriously and always being careful and fighting smart a bad thing ?

I never said it was.

 

[King Moe]

What the new talk now? Mihawk will be able to harm and even defeat Kaido? That's still a big no even with Kinemon able to harm as not like Mihawk can't hurt him, but more so Kaido is not going all out still and still in Full Zoan state without using Haki, Hybrid Form, and even Awakening yet, so this doesn't prove much on anything. Plus let's not forget Mihawk had trouble with defeating any YC lvl threat like Jozu and Vista and was even stopped by Crocodile and didn't defeat him either. Mihawk's level still isn't as far as Kaido level who can still defeated YC lvl threats easily like Oden and Luffy for example as all it took was one hit to knock them out.

The power difference is still large between him and Mihawk. He isn't anywhere near the level of Kaido especially if he wants to go full-on out as Kaido like testing his opponents before truly seeing them worth his time as shown that he even fights when drunk before he gets sober and more serious. Let's not jump to conclusions now on Kaido and underestimating him.

 

[Nie Li]

Please don't start with the talk about Mihawk's tier again. Both for those that diminiss him and those who hype him up (like myself) it's an entirely biased debate because there is simply a lack of feats from his part.

The only thing that's clear to me is that any feat that the Wano swordsmen perform can be surpassed by him, and that's a pretty cool thing for his fans.

Whether that puts him at Kaido's level or not is a different matter that it's better to not even talk about until the time comes that Mihawk shows his worth.