Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

[Nie Li]

​

This is Moegara from the One Piece forum, as most people here know me as.

@Kiki and @Cyanobacteria brought to my attention that most most active staffers have a thread like this and suggested I follow suit, so here we are.

I don't really know what I should say about myself here, but any and all questions and suggestions are welcomed.

 

[Ramen]

Oh, wow. I can understand Ulquiorra and Harribel but I'm surprised to see Yammy that high!

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 19, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 19, 2020 ---

@Kiki Thank you, man. It encourage me to make some fast promotion signature too.

Yammy was the GOAT

 

[Nie Li]

Yammy was the GOAT

Did you like him as much before he was revealed as the 0 Espada or is that and his Incredible Hulk powers what made him cooler to you?

 

[Ramen]

Did you like him as much before he was revealed as the 0 Espada or is that and his Incredible Hulk powers what made him cooler to you?

The latter. 0 was a nice touch.

 

[Nie Li]

The latter. 0 was a nice touch.

Yeah, I admit going from laughing stock to actually being a challenge for Byakuya and Zaraki together was pretty badass.

 

[Ramen]

Ok...now rank the Espada in terms of strength.

Mine is:

1) Yammy
2) Ulquoirra (second release)
3) Stark
4) Barragan
5) Harribel
6) Nnoitra
7) Grimmjow
8) Szayel
9) Zommari
10) Aaroneiro

Fun fact: Szayel was the original cero espada.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 19, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 19, 2020 ---

Though I will say Stark also has a case and if he trained, could be high Quincy level.

 

[Nie Li]

Ok...now rank the Espada in terms of strength.

Mine is:

1) Yammy
2) Ulquoirra (second release)
3) Stark
4) Barragan
5) Harribel
6) Nnoitra
7) Grimmjow
8) Szayel
9) Zommari
10) Aaroneiro

Fun fact: Szayel was the original cero espada.

So you disagree with Aizen's ranking about where Szayel and Zommari rank? I want to know why you think that.

This post came out kinda long but it explains all that I think about power levels in Bleach, perhaps in too much detail.

Spoiler: Long Answer

Zommari really was very underwhelming to me in that he was supposedly the fastest and he was outmatched by Byakuya precisely in speed, but Brujería was pretty overpowered and he could have taken down a lot of characters that don't counter him as perfectly as Senbonzakura Kageyoshi does. He was pretty hax.

I don't know about the Yammy - Ulquiorra - Starrk thing. I do think that Ulquiorra was stronger than Baraggan and Harribel but I'm unsure about how he compared to Starrk and Yammy. Ulquiorra had some regeneration but only on his limbs: he couldn't regenerate internal organs, and it was precisely a backstab through Starrk's abdomen from a sneak attack from his own shadow what caused the beginning of his end, so it's possible that Ulquiorra would have also fallen at the battle of Katakura no matter how destructive his spears were. Ukitake would have countered them like he countered Starrk's basic shots, too, but unlike Starrk he wasn't capable of rapid fire.

People usually understimate Starrk "because he fell to a shikai" but I think both his defeat and the way the shikais and bankais work were a lot more complex than that.

If I have to I think I'd just rank them:
Yammy, Starrk, Ulquiorra, Baraggan, Harribel, Nnoitra, Grimmjow, Zommari, Szayel, Aaroniero.
I trust their official ranking other than for Segunda Etapa, but respect Starrk too much to put him lower than Ulquiorra.


I think Bleach characters are more unrankable in power levels than Fairy Tail characters are. Most shinigami did not get stronger from one arc to the next one (except for Byakuya and Hitsugaya during the last arc for finding more original ways to use their powers, and a couple characters conviniently achieving bankai) because the norm is that it takes them actual centuries of life to slowly power up to the power levels we see on the series. Most captains were just as strong during the first arc than during the last arc, and they had as much trouble with the Espada than they did with the quincies. Hitsugaya had to power up to face quincy who stole his bankai, but Hitsugaya would have also needed to power up if he hoped to ever defeat Harribel, which means his Quincy opponent was not necessarily stronger than his previous boss battle. Most captain-level characters ranged randomly around the same levels.

What I mean by all of this is that I don't think the Starrk that we saw was not "high Quincy tier". I don't even believe "Quincy tier" is something above the "Espada tier": Grimmjow would have demolished the Quincy he killed the first time he saw him if he had not willingly taken his attack out of overconfidence. The Sixth Espada was more powerful than one of their top Quincy fighters. Starrk was a harder fight for Kyouraku than the X-Axis was, but the X-Axis simply received a hax and boost from Yhwach and Kyouraku's use of his bankai to kill him was only to counter his specific hax. X-Axis didn't shine as much as a fighter as Starrk did in front of Kyouraku, and that was all after receiving a major (stabs trough the abdomen are major wounds in Bleach that usually mean the end of a fight) wound when he was distracted playing with two other visored captains. He made Kyouraku tired and achieve a narrow victory despite receiving such wound before he even used his Resurrección.

Ulquiorra, Yammy and Baraggan would have also made quick work out of some of the quincies we saw. Baraggan in particular had a strong hax ability, and the most impressive quincies were only trouble because of their own haxes, like Remmy, or the guy who could entirely erase his presence (who was actually Remmy's creation), the love guy or, specially, Gerard and Yhwach. Gerard and Yhwach had the greatest hax of the series, so much that those two weren't even funny. Those two would have never died without the plot just deciding it was their time to lose to the good guys. Actually, a compendium of Zaraki, Byakuya, Adultgaya and some others actually failed to bring him down: Gerard only died when he was sacrificed by Yhwach, all thanks to his hax "Miracle" skill.

Spoiler: Short Answer

Yammy, Starrk, Ulquiorra, Baraggan, Harribel, Nnoitra, Grimmjow, Zommari, Szayel, Aaroniero.

 

[Ramen]

So you disagree with Aizen's ranking about where Szayel and Zommari rank? I want to know why you think that.

Just basing it off what I saw. Plus in the novel, Szayel was the original 0 Espada.

 

[Nie Li]

Just basing it off what I saw. Plus in the novel, Szayel was the original 0 Espada.

To me, being 0 Espada in the past only means he was the strongest Espada before stronger Espada joined the crew, just like Dordonii and Cirucci were demoted out of the group. It has no real meaning.

 

[Ramen]

To me, being 0 Espada in the past only means he was the strongest Espada before stronger Espada joined the crew, just like Dordonii and Cirucci were demoted out of the group. It has no real meaning.

IIRC, he joined after. In the end, I saw better stuff from him.

 

[Nie Li]

IIRC, he joined after. In the end, I saw better stuff from him.

It would he weird if he joined after and he randomly went from newbie to 0 and then to 8.

I respect your ranking. Zommari and him are both hard to gauge.

What I believe makes Szayel weaker is that Zommari's hax is more "absolute", while Szayel's hax is dependent on grabbing an opponent with his tentacles and I didn't see him grab any moderately fast character with them.

 

[Ramen]

It would he weird if he joined after and he randomly went from newbie to 0 and then to 8.

The whole thing was when he went all out and fought crazy he was 0. However, he didn't care about that and only wanted to achieve perfection so he dropped to 8.

What I believe makes Szayel weaker is that Zommari's hax is more "absolute", while Szayel's hax is dependent on grabbing an opponent with his tentacles and I didn't see him grab any moderately fast character with them.

Both were destroyed by their respective opponents.

 

[Nie Li]

The whole thing was when he went all out and fought crazy he was 0. However, he didn't care about that and only wanted to achieve perfection so he dropped to 8.

I'll look into that tomorrow. That feels extremely weird to me as a plot for him so I have trouble believing it.

Both were destroyed by their respective opponents.

True, but in Zommari's case he faced an awkwardly especific counter, which actually made the character and the fight itself feel cheap. Had Zommari faced any other captain he wouldn't have been destroyed like that (unless he was defeated before he used his resurrección, Zaraki vs Giriko style, because it's only his hax that makes him strong. His normal stats weren't impressing).
If Zommari started a fight already transformed, only Byakuya can counter him that badly after the release and he still had to sacrifice a leg and an arm.

 

[Ramen]

I'll look into that tomorrow. That feels extremely weird to me as a plot for him so I have trouble believing it.

Cool, want the link?

 

[Nie Li]

Cool, want the link?

Don't bother I have just read about it on the wiki (I was impatient). It's 50/50 true.

The 50% true is that Szayel really was the strongest, battle frenzied and a vasto lorde number 0. I'm very impressed. But it's 50% fake because he willingly devolved into an adjuchas, he threw out part of his soul and he was entirely thrown out of the Espada as a result. He was only allowed back in because of his resurrection skill that he achieved that granted him number 8.


This tells me he was unexpectedly impressive in the past but that that's pretty much a different character than the one we know since he devolved.

 

[Ramen]

Don't bother I have just read about it on the wiki (I was impatient). It's 50/50 true.

The 50% true is that Szayel really was the strongest, battle frenzied and a vasto lorde number 0. I'm very impressed. But it's 50% fake because he willingly devolved into an adjuchas, he threw out part of his soul and he was entirely thrown out of the Espada as a result. He was only allowed back in because of his resurrection skill that he achieved that granted him number 8.


This tells me he was unexpectedly impressive in the past but that that's pretty much a different character than the one we know since he devolved.

I'm just happy Mayuri showed him up.

Mayuri needed some love

 

[Nie Li]

@Ramen I was reading some things on the Szayel and I just noticed some things.

I was unaware of the whole "Cero Espada" thing because it's from a novel, but after reading through it I found figured something.

Yylfordt Granz is the single soul that Szayel separated from his body that made him go from Vasto Lorde to Adjuchas (from Espada 0 to Privaron Espada), but Yylfordt Granz is "Arrancar Quince", "Arrancar 15".

Espadas are numbered from 1 to 10 in a ranking of power, while former Espadas are just randomly numbered 100+ numbers in order of demotion. On the other hand, normal Arrancars from Aizen's army are numbered from 11 to 99 in strict order of creation/joining, which means Yylfordt was one of the very first Arrancars to join Aizen's army. He was not necessarily the fourth person to join, since stronger members might have directly joined as Espadas, but he should still be among the first 10 or 20 at most. Yylfordt did not exist while Szayel was number 0, which means that, despite Szayel having been indeed a Vasto Lorde in the past and having casted away some of his power to stop having killing urges and better center his efforts in science, he was still only number 0 while his competition was only a handful 10 or 20 other arrancars and at least before Grimmjow and others joined.

 

[Ramen]

@Ramen I was reading some things on the Szayel and I just noticed some things.

I was unaware of the whole "Cero Espada" thing because it's from a novel, but after reading through it I found figured something.

Yylfordt Granz is the single soul that Szayel separated from his body that made him go from Vasto Lorde to Adjuchas (from Espada 0 to Privaron Espada), but Yylfordt Granz is "Arrancar Quince", "Arrancar 15".

Espadas are numbered from 1 to 10 in a ranking of power, while former Espadas are just randomly numbered 100+ numbers in order of demotion. On the other hand, normal Arrancars from Aizen's army are numbered from 11 to 99 in strict order of creation/joining, which means Yylfordt was one of the very first Arrancars to join Aizen's army. He was not necessarily the fourth person to join, since stronger members might have directly joined as Espadas, but he should still be among the first 10 or 20 at most. Yylfordt did not exist while Szayel was number 0, which means that, despite Szayel having been indeed a Vasto Lorde in the past and having casted away some of his power to stop having killing urges and better center his efforts in science, he was still only number 0 while his competition was only a handful 10 or 20 other arrancars and at least before Grimmjow and others joined.

Yea.....it's really interesting. I wish the novels talked about Stark more.

Best part of the novels is Shinji's bankai.

 

[Nie Li]

Yea.....it's really interesting. I wish the novels talked about Stark more.

Best part of the novels is Shinji's bankai.

Oh, yeah. I read about his bankai's skill but not in what situation he used it. It looks like something made to be used only when surrounded alone by enemies.

Agreed on Starrk. He's a very interesting character and I love his loneliness theme, but we got close to nothing.

I also wish we could have seen what exactly Aizen's bankai was. I was very bummed about not seeing that.

 

[Ramen]

Doing a speedrun of OP.

Day 1: Made to the beginning of Skypeia

Day 2: I just finished Skypeia. Hoping to get to the end of Impel down by the end of the day.....

 

[Nie Li]

Doing a speedrun of OP.

Day 1: Made to the beginning of Skypeia

Day 2: I just finished Skypeia. Hoping to get to the end of Impel down by the end of the day.....

Wait what.

How many chapters did you read in day one!?