Discussion Emperors vs Admirals vs Commanders

[Fox666]

A good argument I heard is that the Emperors seem to cause more fear than the Admirals.

Doflamingo was scared of the idea of fighting Kaido, while he saved face against Aokiji, and even attacked Fujitora.

Jack was not afraid of attacking the fleet that escorted Doflamingo, which had Fujitora and Sengoku on it. But Kaido's sudden appearance concerned him.

But these can be explained.

In Doflamingo's case, he was taken out of his frame by Law, while in almost all situations he's the ultimate negotiator. And he knew that Fujitora was forbidden of fighting him.

Jack failed to rescue Doflamingo. Wheater or not he was afraid of Fujitora and Sengoku, he was not strong enough to fight them.

 

[M3J]

Likely because the Emperors would have no problem with killing, while admirals try not to and are supposedly not as cruel.

And why wouldn't Kaidou's appearance concern Jack, when he's Kaidou's underling and inferior to him?

 

[Windfall Island]

1) Luffy (= Katakuri a YC1 ) in his Round 1 fight vs Kaido was one shotted by a Yonko. (after allowing Luffy to try his best & then tanking all his attacks lol)
No Admiral was even close to one shotting a YC1 (eg. Kizaru,Kuzan,Akainu vs Marco) .
Therefore Yonko >>> Admirals .

2) WB despite of having several plot armors against him (like heart attack in between fight vs Akainu, stab by squardo & being sick etc etc) two shotted Akainu.

Akainu right after being hit (just like the marine fodder soldiers around him)didn't have enough strength left to prevent himself from falling in the crack (which was the only reason that saved his life) while WB still had enough strength to bring down BB.

Ofcourse when given time almost every character will regain some of their lost strength which Akainu later did in the arc to go after Luffy.
But right after the moment Akainu got hit by WB's island splitter , Akainu was as weak as the marine fodders around him.

Plot armor saved Akainu from WB. (coz Sabo(more likely)/Luffy(less likely) will take revenge vs Akainu later...that's the only reason why Akainu was kept alive)

 

[Fox666]

No Admiral was even close to one shotting a YC1 (eg. Kizaru,Kuzan,Akainu vs Marco) .

These particular fights could be explained by Devil Fruit abilities.

In term of pure strength, all of the Admirals have more-or-less blocked Whitebeard's bisento. On theory, wouldn't that mean the Admirals should be capable of one-shoting Commander-level character like Kaido does?

We have also seen all the Whitebeard Pirates ganging up against Akainu, and they couldn't stop him.

2) WB despite of having several plot armors against him (like heart attack in between fight vs Akainu, stab by squardo & being sick etc etc) two shotted Akainu.

Akainu right after being hit (just like the marine fodder soldiers around him)didn't have enough strength left to prevent himself from falling in the crack (which was the only reason that saved his life) while WB still had enough strength to bring down BB.

Ofcourse when given time almost every character will regain some of their lost strength which Akainu later did in the arc to go after Luffy.
But right after the moment Akainu got hit by WB's island splitter , Akainu was as weak as the marine fodders around him.

Plot armor saved Akainu from WB. (coz Sabo(more likely)/Luffy(less likely) will take revenge vs Akainu later...that's the only reason why Akainu was kept alive)

I had argue the opposite about Akainu vs Whitebeard.

After their fight, Whitebeard was the verge of his death. He was killed by the Blackbeard Pirates, which a few chapter later proved to be no match for Sengoku or Akainu.

Akainu on the other hand remained an unstoppable force.

While Whitebeard forced Akainu to withdraw, he also atacked Akainu by surprise. And even so, Akainu objective was to kill Luffy, and he still managed to get close to Luffy after that. Apparently Akainu was using his fruit to dig a tunnel (rather than being knocked out).

 

[Ramen]

1) Luffy (= Katakuri a YC1 ) in his Round 1 fight vs Kaido was one shotted by a Yonko. (after allowing Luffy to try his best & then tanking all his attacks lol)
No Admiral was even close to one shotting a YC1 (eg. Kizaru,Kuzan,Akainu vs Marco) .
Therefore Yonko >>> Admirals .

This is terrible reasoning. None of the Admirals even remotely tried and Akainu was beating all Commanders (aside from Jozu alone).

2) WB despite of having several plot armors against him (like heart attack in between fight vs Akainu, stab by squardo & being sick etc etc) two shotted Akainu.

No, he was not. They had an actual fight where Akainu blew a hole in WB's chest and took off half his face. Then after taking WB's strongest attack, got up with barely any scratches and started beating all of his commanders.

Ofcourse when given time almost every character will regain some of their lost strength which Akainu later did in the arc to go after Luffy.
But right after the moment Akainu got hit by WB's island splitter , Akainu was as weak as the marine fodders around him.

You mean the very next chapter? lol Akainu got up as if it was nothing. Technically it was 2 chapters later but half of 576 was flashbacks. This was Akainu right after:

Spoiler

Plot armor saved Akainu from WB. (coz Sabo(more likely)/Luffy(less likely) will take revenge vs Akainu later...that's the only reason why Akainu was kept alive)

And this is why the fandom is crawling with people who downplay the Admirals. Pretending that Kizaru didn't offer to go himself to Wano (where 2 Yonko are) without a second thought.

 

[kkck]

Also, if Yonkou > admirals, then why didn't Whitebeard take out even one admiral? Why haven't any of the Emperors tried to take out an admiral?


Y'all need to back stuff up, because the manga shows us the admirals and Whitebeard at deadlock, with possibly only Akainu losing if he was knocked out for a while before going after traumatized Luffy.

Akainu was rather helpless against WB though. He was basically ragdolled constantly. It took the entire war for akainu to land hits on WB. What whitebeard didn't do was one shot akainu but overall its pretty clear that there was a fairly large gap between them.

 

[Windfall Island]

These particular fights could be explained by Devil Fruit abilities.

In term of pure strength, all of the Admirals have more-or-less blocked Whitebeard's bisento. On theory, wouldn't that mean the Admirals should be capable of one-shoting Commander-level character like Kaido does?

We have also seen all the Whitebeard Pirates ganging up against Akainu, and they couldn't stop him.


I had argue the opposite about Akainu vs Whitebeard.

After their fight, Whitebeard was the verge of his death. He was killed by the Blackbeard Pirates, which a few chapter later proved to be no match for Sengoku or Akainu.

Akainu on the other hand remained an unstoppable force.

While Whitebeard forced Akainu to withdraw, he also atacked Akainu by surprise. And even so, Akainu objective was to kill Luffy, and he still managed to get close to Luffy after that. Apparently Akainu was using his fruit to dig a tunnel (rather than being knocked out).

1) No Admiral was even close to one shotting Marco , that fact still stays. You can try to explain it via DF breakdown etc but the main point is that a person's strength is a total package of his DF(if he has one) + his raw base stats + etc etc . So picking up anyone component of a person's entire strength package & arguing on the basis of that is incorrect.

2)Yes Admirals should be capable of one shotting Commander level character like Kaido does , but that would be possible only if they were on same tier as Kaido. And since they haven't shown to do it yet, so no they are far from being as strong as Kaido.

3)On the Akainu vs WB point , first of all BB in MF was not Yonko level character. It was only during the 2 year period time skip that BB after having captured all of WB's territories & having defeated Marco & all WB commanders etc that he became a Yonko .

So back to MF , WB vs Akainu, yes Akainu remained an unstoppable force (i have never said that Akainu is not a super strong character ) , but Akainu is an unstoppable force infront of non-Yonko characters.

All credits to Akainu that he was digging a tunnel etc but right after taking the island splitter from WB he did not have enough strength to even prevent himself from falling into the crack. That is my point . On the other hand WB still had enough strength to bring down BB on his own .


To conclude , i will change my mind on this topic & will acknowledge that Admirals are more or less equal to Yonko when an Admiral defeats a YC1 the nearly the same way Kaido defeated Luffy.

 

[M3J]

Akainu was rather helpless against WB though. He was basically ragdolled constantly. It took the entire war for akainu to land hits on WB. What whitebeard didn't do was one shot akainu but overall its pretty clear that there was a fairly large gap between them.

was he? I mean, he landed more serious damage against Whitebeard than Whitebeard did against Akainu despite having one of the most powerful fruits. The gap wasn't large enough that Akainu couldn't do anything, he was still able to get up and fight like he didn't take damage from Whitebeard.

 

[Windfall Island]

This is terrible reasoning. None of the Admirals even remotely tried and Akainu was beating all Commanders (aside from Jozu alone).



No, he was not. They had an actual fight where Akainu blew a hole in WB's chest and took off half his face. Then after taking WB's strongest attack, got up with barely any scratches and started beating all of his commanders.



You mean the very next chapter? lol Akainu got up as if it was nothing. Technically it was 2 chapters later but half of 576 was flashbacks. This was Akainu right after:

Spoiler

And this is why the fandom is crawling with people who downplay the Admirals. Pretending that Kizaru didn't offer to go himself to Wano (where 2 Yonko are) without a second thought.

1) Let's throw all Commanders outside of the picture & take only YC1 as the referrence point . Besides all commanders vary vastly in strength so they are not of much help anyways.
Now , Kaido vs Luffy (YC1) , compare that with Kizaru vs marco , aokiji vs marco , akainu vs marco .

At no point did Akainu annhilate Marco like Kaido did vs Luffy (& mind you Kaido firstly took in all shots from Luffy before proceeding to KOing him).

2) "No, he was not. They had an actual fight where Akainu blew a hole in WB's chest and took off half his face. Then after taking WB's strongest attack, got up with barely any scratches and started beating all of his commanders."

^^ Firstly , Akainu was able to blow a hole in WB's chest only after WB got the heart attack.
Secondly , Akainu didn't get up right after taking WB's island splitter . Akainu didn't even have enough strength to prevent himself from falling into the crack.

Oda had to give WB sickness, stab from squardo , heart attack (causing internal damage) during worst time , Akainu blowing WB's chest off coz of the heart attack ; even after all of these disadvantages by Oda to bring down WB to a level so that the story looks tense & interesting , still WB came out on top.

Without ^^ these disadvantages in a (none of the above handicap) WB vs Akainu fight , WB would have been even more superior.
And this is just Old WB , Prime WB would be on a whole another level lol.
Whenever an Admiral will show to KO a YC1 like Kaido did vs Luffy , then i will consider Admirals to be equal to Yonko.

3) Fact is that Akainu in the entire MF arc could not KO YC1 Marco like Kaido did vs Luffy.

 

[Fox666]

3) Fact is that Akainu in the entire MF arc could not KO YC1 Marco like Kaido did vs Luffy.

Wasn't that because of Marco's ability?

His flames surpassed Akainu's magma. But it also surpassed Prometheus's fire.

Big Mom also seemed to have trouble dealing with Marco, and asked Perosperos to hit him with an arrow.

If I understand it, there was nothing Big Mom could do to take Marco out of the picture. If she broke his neck, he would regenerate almost instantly. But if Perosperos hit him with an arrow, it would get stuck on his skull...

 

[Core D. Roy]

Admirals, Emperors, and Right Hands all belong to S-tier to some degree. How they interact with each other and how much more insanely stronger they are becomes relevant, while below S-tier it's irrelevant.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 7, 2020 ---

His flames surpassed Akainu's magma. But it also surpassed Prometheus's fire.

Marco's regeneration rate surpassed the damage being done by Akainu's magma, which is absolutely crazy. For Big Mom, the "special" nature of the Phoenix flames let him not only nullify but also damage Prometheus like Brook had done before.

 

[XXGenesis]

Luffy after Dogtooth fight isn’t fully 1st Commander Lv. He was like 1.5. So Kaido never 1hit K.O a 1stCommander. It’s was more like a 2nd commander honestly.

WB did not 2 shot Akianu. He knockdown him down with heavy damage. Akainu got back up with a fit and Pawned everything in his sight. Not even the commanders could stop him. Marco included.

Marco’s DF ability seems to have magnified/adverse effects vs BM’s DF. But physically BM can still K.O Marco or damage him. He was easy immobilized, and showed his worth against Akainu & BB(Off screen). I like Marco a lot but he ain’t all that.

IMO only the OG Admirals hold a candle to the Yonkou. Fujitora would get owned. Greenbull we’ll have to wait and see how strong he is.
But the OG admirals have very strong Logia’s, and they are Veterans in their Prime.
I don’t believe they reached Garp & Sengoku’s
But never has BM or Kaido reach prime Garp & Rogers

 

[Ramen]

1) Let's throw all Commanders outside of the picture & take only YC1 as the referrence point . Besides all commanders vary vastly in strength so they are not of much help anyways.
Now , Kaido vs Luffy (YC1) , compare that with Kizaru vs marco , aokiji vs marco , akainu vs marco .

At no point did Akainu annhilate Marco like Kaido did vs Luffy (& mind you Kaido firstly took in all shots from Luffy before proceeding to KOing him).

2) "No, he was not. They had an actual fight where Akainu blew a hole in WB's chest and took off half his face. Then after taking WB's strongest attack, got up with barely any scratches and started beating all of his commanders."

^^ Firstly , Akainu was able to blow a hole in WB's chest only after WB got the heart attack.
Secondly , Akainu didn't get up right after taking WB's island splitter . Akainu didn't even have enough strength to prevent himself from falling into the crack.

Oda had to give WB sickness, stab from squardo , heart attack (causing internal damage) during worst time , Akainu blowing WB's chest off coz of the heart attack ; even after all of these disadvantages by Oda to bring down WB to a level so that the story looks tense & interesting , still WB came out on top.

Without ^^ these disadvantages in a (none of the above handicap) WB vs Akainu fight , WB would have been even more superior.
And this is just Old WB , Prime WB would be on a whole another level lol.
Whenever an Admiral will show to KO a YC1 like Kaido did vs Luffy , then i will consider Admirals to be equal to Yonko.

3) Fact is that Akainu in the entire MF arc could not KO YC1 Marco like Kaido did vs Luffy.

Alright, I'll use your logic, WB couldn't even ko a single Admiral therefore Admirals >> Yonko.

Your whole argument is " Oh, I didn't see an Admiral one-shot a YC1" which is funny and piss poor downplay. When Kizaru toyed with WB.

 

[M3J]

And again, Whitebeard could not take down even one admiral, the closest he came was when Akainu was nowhere to be seen for a while. Even then, Akainu seemed to have taken no damage that could have hampered him, he was still attacking and toying with the commanders like they were nothing. This whole claim that YOnkou > Admirals is idiotic when manga has shown us otherwise.

 

[hokageji]

Whitebeard took so much damage before he fought Akainu? How is Admiral > Yonko relevant? I would say Garp and Sengoku are likely to be Yonko level and would be exceptions....

BB is the only Yonko who we havent seen pose a threat against an admiral and ran away. I highly doubt any admiral can take down Big Mama or Kaido with ease...

 

[Windfall Island]

Alright, I'll use your logic, WB couldn't even ko a single Admiral therefore Admirals >> Yonko.

Old WB is Yonko level. However old & sick WB (the WB that arrived at MF) is certainly weaker , he used to be all covered with medical support system .

On top of that Old & Sick WB , he was given many more handicaps before fighting Akainu like Squardo stab , Heart attack etc & so that WB is even weaker.

This was all to bring WB down to a level that the story becomes tense.

So WB that was performing in MF was sick & was handed over several more handicaps therefore he cannot be expected to KO any Admiral (& he couldn't).
Coz this ^^ WB is not Yonko level. And that is my entire point ; that despite of so many handicaps to bring down Old WB from his otherwise Yonko lvl strength , he still had enough to dominate Akainu , but this WB was far below Yonko lvl. And so you don't see him KO ing Akainu.
He just temporarily KOd Akainu while near his death ; if it was a real KO (& not just a temporary one then Akainu would not have played anymore role in the arc , but he did).

Also i have never said that Admirals are = YC1 . Admirals are >YC1.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 8, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 8, 2020 ---

Wasn't that because of Marco's ability?

His flames surpassed Akainu's magma. But it also surpassed Prometheus's fire.

Big Mom also seemed to have trouble dealing with Marco, and asked Perosperos to hit him with an arrow.

If I understand it, there was nothing Big Mom could do to take Marco out of the picture. If she broke his neck, he would regenerate almost instantly. But if Perosperos hit him with an arrow, it would get stuck on his skull...

What Big Mom meant was that she doesn't have enough souls to spare on Marco (implying she wants to save all her souls = be at her 100% for carrying out whatever she is planning to ).

Yes Marco's ability seems to be the most troublesome amongst all YC1s i think and definitely a direct Kaido's thunder baguya vs Marco confrontation would confirm it very clearly whether Marco truly can be done for by a single Kaido attack or not. That in turn would have settled the debate very conclusively.

But since that hasn't happened so far , so i do assume that Marco is YC1 lvl , maybe a bit stronger than the round 1 Luffy vs Kaido .

Anyways to conclude , here is hope that by the end of this arc , we get a more clearer picture. As i have said before , if the evidence shows that Marco is stronger than Katakuri,Luffy round 1 etc then that would go in Admiral's favor else not. And i will update my understanding of the power difference depending on that .

 

[Ramen]

Old WB is Yonko level. However old & sick WB (the WB that arrived at MF) is certainly weaker , he used to be all covered with medical support system .

On top of that Old & Sick WB , he was given many more handicaps before fighting Akainu like Squardo stab , Heart attack etc & so that WB is even weaker.

This was all to bring WB down to a level that the story becomes tense.

So WB that was performing in MF was sick & was handed over several more handicaps therefore he cannot be expected to KO any Admiral (& he couldn't).
Coz this ^^ WB is not Yonko level. And that is my entire point ; that despite of so many handicaps to bring down Old WB from his otherwise Yonko lvl strength , he still had enough to dominate Akainu , but this WB was far below Yonko lvl. And so you don't see him KO ing Akainu.
He just temporarily KOd Akainu while near his death ; if it was a real KO (& not just a temporary one then Akainu would not have played anymore role in the arc , but he did).

Also i have never said that Admirals are = YC1 . Admirals are >YC1.

He was still the WSM so him being old is moot. What kind of headcanon is "but this WB was far below Yonko lvl?" The dude made the marine scared children and took em all on.

And no, he didn't temproailry Ko Akainu since the latter got up right away with no severe injuries. Just a couple scratches.

Admirals are >>>> YC1 aside from Beckmann.

How you deny and dismiss the numerous examples of Oda telling us that the 4 Yonko and 4 Admirals are on the same level is beyond me.

 

[Fox666]

definitely a direct Kaido's thunder baguya vs Marco confrontation would confirm it very clearly whether Marco truly can be done for by a single Kaido attack or not.

But wouldn't Marco regenerate?

Kizaru blew him to pieces, yet he regenerated. I don't think Kaido's weapon would do worse.

 

[XXGenesis]

But wouldn't Marco regenerate?

Kizaru blew him to pieces, yet he regenerated. I don't think Kaido's weapon would do worse.

Clad in Haki, it’s going to bust Marco up his matta! He’ll be either K.O or need to recover with his ability..:Which isn’t infinite it drains stamina.

 

[Fox666]

Clad in Haki, it’s going to bust Marco up his matta! He’ll be either K.O or need to recover with his ability..:Which isn’t infinite it drains stamina.

Yes, but Marco can regenerate from this:

You gotta agree this injury is more serious than the damage that Luffy received from Kaido's club...