Fantasy Neinhart vs Hades

[Orphan Prince]

Neinhart

VS

Hades

Conditions
Neinhart has no preptime
Hades starts in base

Restrictions
Spriggan Historia

Intent
To Kill

Location
Neinhart's Ship

Starting Distance
20 Feet

ROUND 2

Conditions
Hades starts with Demon Eye activated
Hades has access to The Devil's Heart for as long as he did in Canon
Neinhart has preptime
Neinhart has access to the every non-Spriggan Historia he has been shown to use along with the rest of the deceased Kin of Purgatory

Restrictions
Spriggan Historia
Hades Historia

Intent
To Kill

Location
Neinhart's Ship

Starting Distance
20 Feet​

 

[grey matter]

Neinhart R1
He summons multiple dead kins as well as other formidable foes Hades had known in the past like Yuri.
Zancrow + Azuma + Zoldeo + Yuri combined should be comparable to, if not stronger than, Ikaruga + Azuma + Kyouko. The latter beat x792 Erza clean.
Yes, Hades has better chance against numbers because of high AOE that Erza lacks, but still combo should take out Hades without much issues since x792 Erza should be a tier at least above base HAdes.

Hades R2
Base Hades already is a tier above healthy Makarov. GH + Devil's eye is a massive powerup on top of that. And GH heals him and give him infinite supply of MP, allowing him to spam high end AOE attacks

 

[Ramen]

Neinhart solos Hades and his guild both rounds.

Base Hades already is a tier above healthy Makarov.

So? Makarov would get dummied by Neinhart.

GH + Devil's eye is a massive powerup on top of that.

But it's been power-crept heavily.

And GH heals him and give him infinite supply of MP

Can still be defeated as shown with a better version in FH.

allowing him to spam high end AOE attacks

Which won't tickle Neinhart. AoE doesn't mean anything in this battle since Neinhart can spam AoE attacks too and has a massive stat advantage.

 

[grey matter]

Neinhart solos Hades and his guild both rounds.


So? Makarov would get dummied by Neinhart.



But it's been power-crept heavily.



Can still be defeated as shown with a better version in FH.



Which won't tickle Neinhart. AoE doesn't mean anything in this battle since Neinhart can spam AoE attacks too and has a massive stat advantage.

Yes power creep exists, but I don't regard power creep as highly as you do. Our good guys jumped up many tiers between x791 and x792, but Hades was at a level where he could easily beat x791 good guys. The only good guys on Makarov level in x791 were Laxus and Jellal, who'd get mid diff by base Hades. So the massive powerups of our good guys doesn't automatically imply x792 characters fodderize Hades.

We saw that Erza lost convincingly to a 3v1 of Azuma + Ikaruga + Kyouka. Yes Erza was stated to be somewhat weakened, but not to the extend where Erza would've destroyed them if she was at full power. She had no visible injuries and was healed after her Ajeel fight.
"Nerfed" Erza got low-mid diff'd by the trio. Full power Erza, even if she beats them, isn't doing so easier than an extreme diff
This shows us that previous villains aren't power crept to the point where they're complete fodder.

We also saw that x793 base Natsu struggle a bit to Crippled Makarov, and had to use FDK Demo fist to knock him out. And Natsu claimed that Makarov used to be stronger.

Also, base Hades himself should be GOI tier. He's on or above Warrod by portrayal (being a tier above Makarov itself kinda warranties it)
Devil's eye + GH makes him jump up many tiers from his base, which is already GOI tier. I don't see an issue with him being Spriggan tier.

Crippled Makarov had enough stats to tank attacks from x793 base Natsu. This translates to base Hades, and GH + Devil's Eyes Hades is leagues superior to base Hades.
Base Natsu two shotted Neinhart with regular fire punches. Neinhart isn't no selling anything from Hades. Though I will admit that Neinhart has good attack power.
So, the issue for me is whether Neinhart's minions can hold off Hades while Neinhart spams spells, before Hades gets to him. He may not get casually two shot like by Natsu, but the dude isn't lasting more than 2 Amaterasu 100 from GH and DE powered Hades.
If GH wasn't there to heal Hades continuously, I could've given a higher possibility of Neinhart finishing off Hades with his offensive spells while his minions distract.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2021, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2021 ---

Can still be defeated as shown with a better version in FH.

Honestly that was BS. Which was why I didn't push back when you claimed Natsu vs FH Zeref was BS

There was some sense in the logic that Natsu burned away time + space magic, rendering Zeref incapable of reversing his time to a heathier state. At least momentarily

But FH was still intact, and it should've just restored his MP as soon as Natsu knocked him out. And thus allowing Zeref to recast the space/time magic

 

[Ramen]

Yes power creep exists, but I don't regard power creep as highly as you do. Our good guys jumped up many tiers between x791 and x792, but Hades was at a level where he could easily beat x791 good guys. The only good guys on Makarov level in x791 were Laxus and Jellal, who'd get mid diff by base Hades. So the massive powerups of our good guys doesn't automatically imply x792 characters fodderize Hades.

So you think x784 characters can keep up 8 years later? And what good guy is Hades beating from Alvarez? You think Hades beats a full power Laxus, Jellal, or Gildarts? lmao

We saw that Erza lost convincingly to a 3v1 of Azuma + Ikaruga + Kyouka. Yes Erza was stated to be somewhat weakened, but not to the extend where Erza would've destroyed them if she was at full power. She had no visible injuries and was healed after her Ajeel fight.
"Nerfed" Erza got low-mid diff'd by the trio. Full power Erza, even if she beats them, isn't doing so easier than an extreme diff
This shows us that previous villains aren't power crept to the point where they're complete fodder.

We also saw that x793 base Natsu struggle a bit to Crippled Makarov, and had to use FDK Demo fist to knock him out. And Natsu claimed that Makarov used to be stronger.

Also, base Hades himself should be GOI tier. He's on or above Warrod by portrayal (being a tier above Makarov itself kinda warranties it)
Devil's eye + GH makes him jump up many tiers from his base, which is already GOI tier. I don't see an issue with him being Spriggan tier.

Crippled Makarov had enough stats to tank attacks from x793 base Natsu. This translates to base Hades, and GH + Devil's Eyes Hades is leagues superior to base Hades.
Base Natsu two shotted Neinhart with regular fire punches. Neinhart isn't no selling anything from Hades. Though I will admit that Neinhart has good attack power.
So, the issue for me is whether Neinhart's minions can hold off Hades while Neinhart spams spells, before Hades gets to him. He may not get casually two shot like by Natsu, but the dude isn't lasting more than 2 Amaterasu 100 from GH and DE powered Hades.
If GH wasn't there to heal Hades continuously, I could've given a higher possibility of Neinhart finishing off Hades with his offensive spells while his minions distract.

Here's the issue, not only did Mashima say Neinhart is above Hades, but also Hades is fodder in stats compared. You can't get around the fact that Tartaros characters have better stats than Hades.

Everything else you brought up is your faulty scaling, and overestimation of GH and the GOI who would get fodderized by any Spriggan

 

[Sevently]

neinhart both rounds.

 

[grey matter]

So you think x784 characters can keep up 8 years later? And what good guy is Hades beating from Alvarez? You think Hades beats a full power Laxus, Jellal, or Gildarts? lmao



Here's the issue, not only did Mashima say Neinhart is above Hades, but also Hades is fodder in stats compared. You can't get around the fact that Tartaros characters have better stats than Hades.

Everything else you brought up is your faulty scaling, and overestimation of GH and the GOI who would get fodderized by any Spriggan

I didn't mean Hades would beat any of the "powerhouse" good guys like Natsu, Gildarts, Laxus, Jellal etc. These are high-elite tiers of x792, of course Hades loses hard to them.
I mean Hades can beat some of the Spriggans, who are mid tier of x792
I fully agree that high-elites post timeskip destroys high-elites of previous. What I don't necessarily agree is that elites of previous get stomped by mid tiers of current, this is situational.

I see it as comparison between tiers and arcs, not just between arcs.
Bluenote was strong enough to stomp x792 Wendy for eg. But got one shot by roar from x792 Natsu. Bluenote, a high tier of x784, was still above low tiers of x792, but fodder to high tier of x792.
Elite tiers of x784 and x791 (Hades, Future Rouge, Mard) won't stand a chance against elite tiers of x792 (August, Eileen), just like elite tiers of x792 won't stand a chance against elite tiers of x793 (Black knights, George)
But that doesn't mean elite tiers of prior times won't stand a chance against mid tiers of later times. Hades was (the only) elite tier of x784, Neinhart a mid tier of x792
Also, Future Rouge is already mid tier+ relative to x792 based on scaling. He's basically x792 dual element Sting + some more experience. In alternative timeline, instead of Sting getting dual elements, Rouge got it after being taken over by his shade and killing Sting


I take Mashima's statement as "these 12 are the strongest collective villain group in the series". Literally taking "12 strongest characters ever in the series" would also mean they're stronger than Igneel and other parent dragons, even if I grant that Zeref and Acno shouldn't be included here.
Which Tartarus arc character has superior stats to base Hades, except Mard and DF Natsu?
Every Tartarus character except Mard & DF Natsu are on or below Makarov/Jura tier, and Makarov is a tier below base Hades. Add GH + Devil's eye, and no character in x791 can beat him except Etherious Mard and Future Rouge, the respective elite tiers of x791


GOI are relatively weak. But not weak enough to be completely irrelevant.
3 GOI + Jura are objectively superior to Azuma + Ikaruga+ Kyouka who defeated Erza.
It just means Serena has great stats. Serena destroying them doesn't imply Neinhart can. Neinhart is better off hiding somewhere and supporting battles with summons, while Serena is a frontline battle mage.

 

[Lucy>Wendy&Elfman]

Hades stomps Fodderhart both rounds.