Discussion Jinsung is Stronger than Kallavan

Is Jinsung truly human?

  • Yes

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Cinera

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It was recently brought to my attention that I've been grossly misreading a particular critical interaction between Jinsung and Kallavan.

I'm referring to this scene:


The words in the black text box are said entirely by Kallavan:
Kallavan said:
Using Remote Reverse Flow Control against two of the Highest Rankers..?!

And yet he's about two seconds from dying!

Is this guy really human..?

All I have is respect for him...
Adios' translated it a bit differently:
Kallavan said:
Remote reverse control against two top-level highrankers...!
Is he really a man who's just before the moment of his death?
Can't be repectable more than this...
Grammar notwithstanding, the basic gist is the same.

Kallavan is dumbfounded that Jinsung could use Reverse Flow Control against "two of the Highest Rankers"/"two top-level highrankers", and while he's "two seconds away from dying"/"just before the moment of his death".

He questions if Jinsung is truly human, and then admits that he holds the utmost respect for him.

Kallavan seemed to place Jinsung on a pedestal even above himself.

Respect the Ancient Beast.
 

hblock

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As usual @Cinera. You should learn to take things objectively and refer to both the pros and cons.

Here's what Kall' thinks about Jinsung btw :
"Those two arms are like a history of martial arts. Maybe he was enough to compete with this 'essential of fight'. He didn't deserve to die..."
Basically, Jinsung <= himself from his perspective
 

Demonspeed

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No Jinsung isn't stronger than Kallavan. Kallavan is above him in every aspect excepted skill and experience. And even if you think he was stronger than him back then, he certainly isn't now.
 

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No Jinsung isn't stronger than Kallavan. Kallavan is above him in every aspect excepted skill and experience. And even if you think he was stronger than him back then, he certainly isn't now.
I agree about the Kall' >= Jinsung part but how is the current Kall' stronger than his last station version ? I mean, the dude lived over 3K years at least. 2 years (and 1 month, 20 days, or so) aren't relevant at this point.
 

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Yeah, I'm a Jinsung fan (particularly over Kallavan the Boring), but he was outclassed in that fight in every way.

This discussion pops up from time to time, in part due to SIU's noncommittal attitude about who is stronger (contradictory to the actual story) and coy 'hehe's' he likes to do about anything absolute.

 

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To me kallavan is unarguably the stronger one. Through the fight kallavan pretty much bulldozed through jinsung. But there comes the nuance: Nothing jinsung did against kallavan worked EXCEPT the transcendental floral butterfly tiger dragon thing. Jinsung had superior martial arts to kallavan which were further boosted by his exceptional reinforcement but this did precisely zero damage to kallavan. Because it was just not enough to do anything to a body as strong as kallavan's. Meanwhile kallavan activated his essence of bravery and jinsung was pretty much helpless. And even after jinsung pretty much blended kallavan's insides to less than a paste kallavan went on as if nothing had happened.
 

Jubei_Kibagami

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To me kallavan is unarguably the stronger one. Through the fight kallavan pretty much bulldozed through jinsung. But there comes the nuance: Nothing jinsung did against kallavan worked EXCEPT the transcendental floral butterfly tiger dragon thing. Jinsung had superior martial arts to kallavan which were further boosted by his exceptional reinforcement but this did precisely zero damage to kallavan. Because it was just not enough to do anything to a body as strong as kallavan's. Meanwhile kallavan activated his essence of bravery and jinsung was pretty much helpless. And even after jinsung pretty much blended kallavan's insides to less than a paste kallavan went on as if nothing had happened.
Agreed, but just not about Jinsung's supposedly superior martial arts. Not only did they both do roughly the same amount of moves in that battle (2x each), but the EoB contains... All history of martial arts. From an ancient being that might have even preceded the old-ass Jinsung. Kallavan downloaded all that into his brain. A lifetime of martial arts from countless battles. More than Jinsung no doubt, unless the EoB doesn't contain what we're told it does.
 

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Agreed, but just not about Jinsung's supposedly superior martial arts. Not only did they both do roughly the same amount of moves in that battle (2x each), but the EoB contains... All history of martial arts. From an ancient being that might have even preceded the old-ass Jinsung. Kallavan downloaded all that into his brain. A lifetime of martial arts from countless battles. More than Jinsung no doubt, unless the EoB doesn't contain what we're told it does.
TBH I took that bit that the essence of bravery contains the knowledge of all martial arts as hyperbole. We got a glimpse of what kallavan saw when he got the EoB but it doesn't appear even kallavan saw more. And kallavan's martial arts being inferior to jinsung's speaks against him having the entirety of the history of martial arts. Add to that, the EoB in practice appear to be a power centered around massively powerful explosions from your body rather than martial arts technique themselves.
 

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He may be a more skilled martial artist, but he's not stronger.
 

Jubei_Kibagami

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TBH I took that bit that the essence of bravery contains the knowledge of all martial arts as hyperbole. We got a glimpse of what kallavan saw when he got the EoB but it doesn't appear even kallavan saw more. And kallavan's martial arts being inferior to jinsung's speaks against him having the entirety of the history of martial arts. Add to that, the EoB in practice appear to be a power centered around massively powerful explosions from your body rather than martial arts technique themselves.
Yeah, just can't agree here.

We visibly saw what it took to create and consolidate all that battle knowledge. Rivers of blood. Over an immeasurable amount of time. Ancient inhuman being on an ancient time scale. So much fighting that once he learned ALL there was to learn, he holed himself up into the gem. It wouldn't even exist if he hadn't got to that point.

Yes, the EoB *also* conveys great strength and durability associated with battle, but the core of it is supposedly knowledge. What use is all that knowledge if it can't be put to practice.

Even if hyperbole it is simply how the EoB is explained as containing. It's how it came into being, by that very knowledge.

I just can't see how Jinsung, as old as he may be, can compete with those kinds of circumstances.
 

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Yeah, just can't agree here.

We visibly saw what it took to create and consolidate all that battle knowledge. Rivers of blood. Over an immeasurable amount of time. Ancient inhuman being on an ancient time scale. So much fighting that once he learned ALL there was to learn, he holed himself up into the gem. It wouldn't even exist if he hadn't got to that point.

Yes, the EoB *also* conveys great strength and durability associated with battle, but the core of it is supposedly knowledge. What use is all that knowledge if it can't be put to practice.

Even if hyperbole it is simply how the EoB is explained as containing. It's how it came into being, by that very knowledge.

I just can't see how Jinsung, as old as he may be, can compete with those kinds of circumstances.
The series makes the point that back in the day kallavan had no knowledge of what actually was in the giant gem. Jinsung himself was just going by hearsay.

To add to that, this is a series where powers can be passed from one being to another. And it can apply to a variety of powers. Take aguero and the fire fish. That was a ranker's flame.. But that ranker was born with said flame. He grew with said flame, nourished it, made it powerful and then it just went to another. I would argue the essence of bravery is the same. A great warrior developed the power over eons by fighting.... then the vague history we have is that the great warrior grew tired of fighting and left the power behind.

And that's another thing, the essence of bravery does not convey physical strength or durability. Kallavan was a worthy vessel of the EoB because of his uniquely tough body which resulted from however long of his ancestors producing the strongest rankers possible.

When it actually came to it the essence of bravery is what we see from kallavan from kallavan when he fights... Weird ass gem based explosions. There is no actual indication that kallavan actually got martial arts from this. And it's weird that if the power conveyed this then jinsung would be so much stronger than kallavan in this specific area.
 

VON

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To me kallavan is unarguably the stronger one. Through the fight kallavan pretty much bulldozed through jinsung. But there comes the nuance: Nothing jinsung did against kallavan worked EXCEPT the transcendental floral butterfly tiger dragon thing. Jinsung had superior martial arts to kallavan which were further boosted by his exceptional reinforcement but this did precisely zero damage to kallavan. Because it was just not enough to do anything to a body as strong as kallavan's. Meanwhile kallavan activated his essence of bravery and jinsung was pretty much helpless. And even after jinsung pretty much blended kallavan's insides to less than a paste kallavan went on as if nothing had happened.
It really puts White’s power into perspective after knowing how Jinsung was getting ragdoll by EoB Kallavan yet White had him completely on the defensive.
 

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Despite the description of EoB that we got Kallavan doesn't seem that skilled when it comes to martial arts . Especially when compared to Jinsung(who trained him too). He relies on brute force more than technique. Unlike Cha for example. Maybe if he is really cornered we'll see him fight differently but I doubt it.

I agree about the Kall' >= Jinsung part but how is the current Kall' stronger than his last station version ? I mean, the dude lived over 3K years at least. 2 years (and 1 month, 20 days, or so) aren't relevant at this point.
So you think Kallavan was at his peak against Jinsung? Surely, these events with Baam motivated him to get even stronger.
 

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Despite the description of EoB that we got Kallavan doesn't seem that skilled when it comes to martial arts . Especially when compared to Jinsung(who trained him too). He relies on brute force more than technique. Unlike Cha for example. Maybe if he is really cornered we'll see him fight differently but I doubt it.



So you think Kallavan was at his peak against Jinsung? Surely, these events with Baam motivated him to get even stronger.
Something I've been wondering for a while is if perhaps kallavan is like those young ha folk jinsung described... that use their bodies as punching bags when in reality the ha are very technique oriented fighters. Basically, a more technique oriented fighter could potentially get more out of the essence of bravery than kallavan.

I don't think 2 years is enough to make much of a difference between kallavan now and back then. For a high ranker that's an insignificant amount of time, even for one as young as kallavan. Going a tad further, there is a chance kallavan is weaker than he was back then if we consider the possibility that the wound he took from jinsung might not have fully healed yet or left perhaps a few sequels.
 

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The series makes the point that back in the day kallavan had no knowledge of what actually was in the giant gem. Jinsung himself was just going by hearsay.
Yes, but once he took it, Kallavan witnessed everything leading up to its creation. And he specifically states he took the power that the tall, mass-murdering ancient man had. What that man had, Kallavan now has. Why wouldn't that extend to his knowledge, as had been said about EoB to begin with? Regardless, it clearly extended to shinsoo power, and durability as well. Kallavan was durable, but not ancient Ha durable. But after EoB, Kallavan makes sure Jinsung knows that his Ha blood loses its edge when facing him. That's only a change Jinsung found out first hand AFTER Kallavan took EoB, seeing as he fought him both before and after to wildly different results.

To add to that, this is a series where powers can be passed from one being to another. And it can apply to a variety of powers. Take aguero and the fire fish. That was a ranker's flame.. But that ranker was born with said flame. He grew with said flame, nourished it, made it powerful and then it just went to another. I would argue the essence of bravery is the same. A great warrior developed the power over eons by fighting.... then the vague history we have is that the great warrior grew tired of fighting and left the power behind.
..... and passed his power on to the owner of the gem. Yes, we agree here.

And that's another thing, the essence of bravery does not convey physical strength or durability. Kallavan was a worthy vessel of the EoB because of his uniquely tough body which resulted from however long of his ancestors producing the strongest rankers possible.
Those are two different, distinct thoughts that have some overlap and yet aren't contradictory. Both are true though. The EoB gave Kallavan strength AND Kallavan had to be strong enough to receive it (he had to be worthy/strong enough to receive EVEN MORE strength - presumably a weakling would have perished or something if they tried to receive such power. Not a unique trope at all really). When Jinsung came back (after Kalla took the power), he recognized a change in his shinsoo and knew then he was able to become a high ranker (Kalla was already a ranker) - that's a change in an extreme, ranker to HR. This means obviously Kallavan got stronger.

Later, Jinsung would find out the hard way that extends to toughness/durability as well because he bested him prior to EoB easily enough, but lost his edge as an ancient Ha with flesh toughness to EoB Kallavan. Hence, EoB clearly conveys power in combat strength AND durability. How could it not?

When it actually came to it the essence of bravery is what we see from kallavan from kallavan when he fights... Weird ass gem based explosions. There is no actual indication that kallavan actually got martial arts from this.
There is no indication that he doesn't have any. He primarily uses a variety of bomber attacks (Did he use those before? Were those 'learned' as ultimate techniques the ancient used? We don't know...). That, combined with his increased durability, seems to have been sufficient for Kallavan to use up to facing - and including - Jinsung.

And it's weird that if the power conveyed this then jinsung would be so much stronger than kallavan in this specific area.
How so was Jinsung more powerful/stronger - in what way? He certainly didn't string together large amounts of 'moves'.... once Kalla activated EoB, according to my count they both used exactly two special moves each. Hardly a showdown of martial arts being exhibited. I'm not counting RFC.

I mean we both agree that Jinsung got rag-dolled so I don't think you mean literally stronger; perhaps you mean more varied martial arts moves but we haven't exactly seen that either though his proficiency keeps getting touted nonetheless.

========

Despite the description of EoB that we got Kallavan doesn't seem that skilled when it comes to martial arts .
On what basis though?

Especially when compared to Jinsung(who trained him too).
IDT that's correct. If by 'trained' you mean kicked his ass once, left, came back and asked him to join FUG a couple of times just to be turned down and ultimately left for good then, yes, Jinsung 'trained' Kallavan.

He relies on brute force more than technique.
I mean, it's generally worked so far for every battle he's had since. Why do something extravagant if you can just punch or chop? Doesn't mean you CAN'T do something more exotic. Jinsung, the apparent king of techniques, had to use a... brute-force Hail-Mary attack on Kallavan and it almost worked. Brute-force techniques work regardless of whether you have more exotic moves in your repertoire.

Unlike Cha for example.
Cha seems to be a Goku/Saitama type to me; what do you mean?
 
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Jinsung Ha > Kallavan.

We never saw Jinsung go all out.

He was interrupted by Maschenny hitting him in the back, pro wrestling style, with a steel chair.

All Jinsung has to do to win the rematch is aim a few inches higher.


:toc
 

Jubei_Kibagami

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So, he's just an incompetent fighter then?

So much for being able to read your opponent as the pinnacle of a martial artist...
 

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Jinsung Ha > Kallavan.

We never saw Jinsung go all out.

He was interrupted by Maschenny hitting him in the back, pro wrestling style, with a steel chair.

All Jinsung has to do to win the rematch is aim a few inches higher.


:toc
The opposite is true too

Kallavan staying at a distance and spamming Atomic Explosion which we know Jinsung can’t defend against.
 

Demonspeed

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Jinsung Ha > Kallavan.

We never saw Jinsung go all out.

He was interrupted by Maschenny hitting him in the back, pro wrestling style, with a steel chair.

All Jinsung has to do to win the rematch is aim a few inches higher.


:toc
Jinsung used his strongest technique against him and it wasn't enough.

Cha seems to be a Goku/Saitama type to me; what do you mean?
In the recent chapters they said Cha was someone who doesn't waste movements in battle.
 

kkck

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Jinsung very clearly went all out against kallavan. It simply took kallavan a few attacks to reduce jinsung to a paste like consistency where his only option was the massive hail mary of his tiger dragon floral butterfly. Lore wise the floral butterfly is an immensely risky technique, even if the reward matches the risk...
 
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