Discussion Maschenny never fought Jinsung Seriously on the 91st Floor

[Cinera]

Introduction
This should go without saying, but Maschenny was never at the 91st Floor to fight with Jinsung.


Jinsung's Commentary
Jinsung comments on how she's not fighting seriously:
Exhibit

Spoiler

He then asks what she's after, saying that she acted like she was attacking him but had never actually put up a real fight:
Exhibit

Spoiler

He speculates that she wanted to tell him something in secret:
Exhibit

Spoiler

Maschenny's Commentary

She confirms this, saying that he finally figured it out:
Exhibit

Spoiler

Later on, when Jinsung questions the veracity of the information she provided, she says that she has no reason to go this far (fake the fight, destroy her fleet, etc. just to lie):
Exhibit

Spoiler

This further drives home the point that the entire fight was a pretence for their conversation.


SIU's Commentary
SIU even commented on the situation, stating that Maschenny had another objective on the 91st Floor:
Season 2 Chapter 311 Blog Post

Meanwhile Maschenny and Ha Jinsung are fighting fiercely.

...

Looks like Maschenny has another objective in her mind.

Source


Maschenny's "Serious" Attack
After Jinsung finally figured out Maschenny's true intentions, Maschenny berates him for taking so long, then appears to attack him:
Exhibit

Spoiler

But her attack travels through him and destroys her Flagship behind him:
Exhibit

Spoiler

She claims that she seriously tried on that one attack:
Exhibit

Spoiler

After which Jinsung asks her what she's going through all this trouble (their farce of a fight) just to tell him:
Exhibit

Spoiler

After this, she reveals the Three Orders:
Exhibit

Spoiler

(Notice how her Flagship has been completely destroyed from her earlier "serious" attack? I would claim that taking out the flagship was actually the true purpose of that attack. She just attacked through Jinsung, so it wouldn't look like she was deliberately destroying her troops.).


Cover
The entire pretence at a fight was just cover for her chat with Jinsung. It's why she kept using flashy attacks, to prevent them from being overheard:
Exhibit A

Spoiler

Exhibit B

Spoiler

Exhibit C

Spoiler

Exhibit D

Spoiler

Her attacks with Tres Cuernos were simply to create a suitable cover to allow her to converse with Jinsung without any risk of being overheard.

This is reiterated by the fact that Maschenny attacked the El Robina far more often than she did Jinsung:
Exhibit A

Spoiler

Exhibit B

Spoiler

Exhibit C

Spoiler

Closing Remarks
Maschenny never fought Jinsung with any seriousness. The entire fight was a pretence to provide her with the opportunity to inform Jinsung about the Three Orders and Baam's predicament while maintaining plausible deniability (she was essentially committing treason).

 

[Fiodor Pavlovich K]

Nice OP, but I don't think there is a discussion here as I never saw anyone in the forum to state otherwise

 

[Dkt]

Well neither were serious and by the way they were both top 100 high rankers, maschenny may be alot stronger, usually top rankers rarely fight to death.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Nice OP, but I don't think there is a discussion here as I never saw anyone in the forum to state otherwise

I mean... this.

 

[Cinera]

Nice OP, but I don't think there is a discussion here as I never saw anyone in the forum to state otherwise

I mean... this.

Well, I present you an exhibit:

Oh hello and welcome to the forum.

She has already shown her combat feat at the 91th Floor when she had a skirmish with Jinsung.

The thing is, she said with certainty that she tried in her last attack against him, and it didn't do any damage. This is such an anti-feat for her, now assuming If she's that strong, she could defeat him with little to no difficulty, but this didn't happen though. Of course she didn't try hard enough in that skirmish but Jinsung didn't either, both of them used a named attack but neither used a lethal or trancendental one.

This happened again when Jinsung was already worn out in his fight against Kallavan, she pierced him in the last moment citing that she could break his tough body at last, whereas she couldn't do that before. This indicates that she would have to exert herself a lot more if she wanted to inflict the same damage to his healthy body.

As mentioned above, i think she's not far off from the likes of Kallavan, Jinsung, Lyborick, Yasratcha etc. She could be stronger or on the same level. But to state/claim that she's far above them in terms of power is baseless/groundless, considering the proof/evidence tells us otherwise.

Other people who should read the OP:
@kkck, @PlotArmouredTitan, @Merrie, @DeadCosmos

 

[kkck]

Welp, the point I made earlier was that during this confrontation she probably did not outright lie.. to jinsung. Basically she told the truth to her convenience. She has definitely lied to other people.

As for her serious attack you have this part:

"However jinsung doesn't believe her...". What? jinsung never really responded on this bit to mascheny. He just didn't care. There's no specific reason for us to not believe mascheny when she said she actually tried. Sure, she destroyed the fleet behind jinsung but how is that an indication that she lied about this specific bit? Mascheny could have actually tried to hit jinsung while also meaning to destroy the fleet, the two are not mutually exclusive, specially if mascheny got excited.

That said, I do believe the correct context of the fight is that mascheny just tried with the one attack but only within the scope of what she was using at the time. Mascheny almost definitely still has a lot of things in her arsenal. Internal quality shinsoo control seems like a given (basically SS mascheny), extra attributes like the more conventional lightning spear she showed when she got involved in the kallavan-jinsung fight or even just plain stronger version of tres cuernos (like how data eduan and data zahard had bigger versions of their attributes), and possibly even actual ignition weapons that suit her attributes.

 

[Cinera]

Welp, the point I made earlier was that during this confrontation she probably did not outright lie.. to jinsung. Basically she told the truth to her convenience. She has definitely lied to other people.

As for her serious attack you have this part:

"However jinsung doesn't believe her...". What? jinsung never really responded on this bit to mascheny. He just didn't care. There's no specific reason for us to not believe mascheny when she said she actually tried. Sure, she destroyed the fleet behind jinsung but how is that an indication that she lied about this specific bit? Mascheny could have actually tried to hit jinsung while also meaning to destroy the fleet, the two are not mutually exclusive, specially if mascheny got excited.

Why would Maschenny try to hurt Jinsung?

She wasn't there to fight him but to pass across a message to him.

That said, I do believe the correct context of the fight is that mascheny just tried with the one attack but only within the scope of what she was using at the time.

Maschenny had no desire to even hurt Jinsung in the first place. She wasn't trying to fight him but solely to pass across a message to him.

 

[kkck]

Why would Maschenny try to hurt Jinsung?

She wasn't there to fight him but to pass across a message to him.



Maschenny had no desire to even hurt Jinsung in the first place. She wasn't trying to fight him but solely to pass across a message to him.

Because mascheny is a war nut who gets off of fighting. I think of this of mascheny mixing work and pleasure for a second.

Also, if mascheny retains any non zero percentage of her data self's personality then the claim that at any point or context "maschny had no desire to even hurt..." is just not true. SHe wants to hurt anything that can put up a fight.

 

[Cinera]

Because mascheny is a war nut who gets off of fighting. I think of this of mascheny mixing work and pleasure for a second.

Not really.

Maschenny specifically wanted to fight Zahard. It's a dream for her:

She never indicated a desire to fight anyone else at the Hidden Floor.

And she has never indicated a desire to fight anyone as a High Ranker (though she enjoys fighting, she's never been interested in fighting any of the strong High Rankers we've seen).

Maschenny has displayed no independent desire to fight the ordinary Regulars:

• See her interactions with Jinsung
  • She only came there to chat with him.
  • Jinsung, Maschenny herself and SIU all said this.
• She hasn't fought (or indicated a desire to fight) anyone at the Nest despite an abundance of elite High Rankers
  • FUG
    • Baam
    • Khel Hellam
    • Evankhell
    • White
    • Yama
    • Cha
  • Zahard Army
    • Kallavan
    • Lyborick
    • Yasratcha
  • Lo Po Bia Army
    • Pudidy
    • Perseus
    • Whitegarment Widow
    • Yorari
    • Dokoko

The only thing Maschenny has been interested at the Nest was Baam, and to see what Baam was capable of. She had no desire to fight him (though she did call the current Baam weak).

There's just no indication that Maschenny wants to fight anyone other than Zahard.

Perhaps she might be interested in fighting another Irregular as a sort of proxy for the Father she cannot reach, but that wouldn't translate to Jinsung.

Also, if mascheny retains any non zero percentage of her data self's personality then the claim that at any point or context "maschny had no desire to even hurt..." is just not true. SHe wants to hurt anything that can put up a fight.

No. Her Data wanted to fight Zahard in particular. She never indicated a desire to fight Eduan (who was also much stronger than her), Buggy Urek, Baam, the Big Breeders or anyone else.

Maschenny has an obsession with and fixation with Zahard. A true Father complex, much like Hoaquin and Hon. See this thread:

Discussion - Maschenny's Father Complex

Alternate title: Maschenny's Daddy Issues Introduction As is the case for some of the direct descendants of the 10 Families, Maschenny Zahard seems to have a fixation on her Father. Curiously though, the Father she's fixated on is not Khun Eduan but rather King Zahard. Her fixation on Zahard...

mangahelpers.com

 

[kkck]

Not really.

Maschenny specifically wanted to fight Zahard. It's a dream for her:


She never indicated a desire to fight anyone else at the Hidden Floor.

And she has never indicated a desire to fight anyone as a High Ranker (though she enjoys fighting, she's never been interested in fighting any of the strong High Rankers we've seen).

Maschenny has displayed no independent desire to fight the ordinary Regulars:

• See her interactions with Jinsung
  • She only came there to chat with him.
  • Jinsung, Maschenny herself and SIU all said this.
• She hasn't fought (or indicated a desire to fight) anyone at the Nest despite an abundance of elite High Rankers
  • FUG
    • Baam
    • Khel Hellam
    • Evankhell
    • White
    • Yama
    • Cha
  • Zahard Army
    • Kallavan
    • Lyborick
    • Yasratcha
  • Lo Po Bia Army
    • Pudidy
    • Perseus
    • Whitegarment Widow

The only thing Maschenny has been interested at the Nest was Baam, and to see what Baam was capable of. She had no desire to fight him (though she did call the current Baam weak).

There's just no indication that Maschenny wants to fight anyone other than Zahard (or perhaps another Irregular).




No. Her Data wanted to fight Zahard in particular. She never indicated a desire to fight Eduan (who was also much stronger than her), Buggy Urek, Baam, the Big Breeders or anyone else.

Maschenny has an obsession with and fixation with Zahard. A true Father complex, much like Hoaquin and Hon. See this thread:

Discussion - Maschenny's Father Complex

Alternate title: Maschenny's Daddy Issues Introduction As is the case for some of the direct descendants of the 10 Families, Maschenny Zahard seems to have a fixation on her Father. Curiously though, the Father she's fixated on is not Khun Eduan but rather King Zahard. Her fixation on Zahard...

mangahelpers.com

Except that, you know, mascheny is pretty overt about her being a fighting nut.

Tower of God - [Season 2] Ep. 336

What do you desire? Money and wealth? Honor and pride? Authority and power? Revenge? Or something that transcends them all? Whatever you desire—it's here.

www.webtoons.com

Mascheny: I've been reading the ancient books for a long time, waiting for the moment when those battles would take place before my eyes. Compared to back then, the current peace is so trivial an dull- Ahh- That's right. Maybe I'm just a nut who can't live without blood and fighting.

So... there's that. Sure, mascheny wanted to fight zahard, at least the one time. But she went through the trouble of getting to the hidden floor, meeting eduan, and stayed there for an incredibly long time just for the off chance of fighting and dying to zahard. And now she is doing everything she can to make a war as massive as possible just to basically get off to it. That said, mascheny is absolutely playing the long game. Her data self could have faced eduan and be defeated as easily but she wouldn't settle. Her current self could just have her fun fighting the enemies of the empire but instead she wants a war were everyone is active.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 16, 2022 ---

I would argue that objective wise mascheny is more or less clear. What's still somewhat up in the air is her methods.

 

[Cinera]

Except that, you know, mascheny is pretty overt about her being a fighting nut.

She does enjoy fighting, I didn't deny that.

The only person that she wants to fight in particular is Zahard.

Her enjoying fighting doesn't mean that she wants to fight everyone. She has never once indicated a desire to fight anyone other than Zahard.

And she only fought seriously against Zahard.

And now she is doing everything she can to make a war as massive as possible just to basically get off to it.

Nope. She believes that bloodshed is necessary for her "goal":

Spoiler

Considering that she says that she has the same goal as Jinsung, it's most likely the downfall of Zahard (might this also be borne from her father complex?).

She tells Jinsung that expecting the world to change by playing babysitter is silly:

In order to realise the change she wants, she'll make the Tower "a bloody mess":

The war isn't her end goal, it's the means to her end.


It just so happens that her means (war and bloodshed) is something that she also delights in.

Her data self could have faced eduan and be defeated as easily but she wouldn't settle.

Because she's obsessed with fighting Zahard in particular, not fighting in general.

She could have had fun fighting Eduan over and over again in the Hidden Floor. Fighting just isn't what she wanted.

What she wanted was to fight Zahard.

There is not a single panel where Maschenny has indicated a desire to fight someone other than Zahard.

Her current self could just have her fun fighting the enemies of the empire but instead she wants a war were everyone is active.

Again, Maschenny doesn't just want to fight.

And the war isn't her end goal but her means.


I mean Jinsung explicitly says that she's not someone that merely seeks to fight:

I would argue that objective wise mascheny is more or less clear. What's still somewhat up in the air is her methods.

Not really. Her objective is "the same thing as Jinsung". She has never outright said what it is that she wants as an end goal, only that it's the same thing that Jinsung wants.

The most reasonable guess given the available information is Zahard's downfall.

 

[hblock]

Yes, Maschenny didn't use the best of her abilities against Jinsung but she still unleashed a low/mid level skill at max potency, which did nothing to him (and Jinsung didn't use his high-end skills either).
This goes on par with her statement about "finally" starting to penetrate Jinsung's skin or when she couldn't move a muscle in front of a "remote" reverse control used by a half-dead/broken arms Jinsung with a great part of its strength being exhausted on Kallavan.
Said in other words, Maschenny almost certainly used the maximum amount of Myun/Suu she can produce (at least in one attack) but still has more c uards up her sleeve such as a better internal quality skill than Redan, more lethal spear skills and most certainly a trancendental skill as well.

 

[Cinera]

but she still unleashed a low/mid level skill at max potency, which did nothing to him (and Jinsung didn't use his high-end skills either).

No she did not. Haland's Aegirocassis did more to a Jinsung who was blocking than Maschenny's Tres Cuernos did to an off guard Jinsung.

There's no way that Haland's spear technique is superior to one of Maschenny's signature spear techniques.

Especially not when the Lightning Spear technique has been described as one of the ultimate Spear techniques.

(And Maschenny's own usage of that technique is immensely beyond that of the usual High Ranker).

And Haland is himself a mere Hatchling that is not yet at the level to fight a CC tier opponent.

 

[hblock]

No she did not. Haland's Aegirocassis did more to a Jinsung who was blocking than Maschenny's Tres Cuernos did to an off guard Jinsung.

Which means Halan's technique is arguably more destructive than Tres Cuernos. Also, it was a 2v1, Jinsung was depleting his strength to fight both him and Pudidy at the same time.

There's no way that Haland's spear technique is superior to one of Maschenny's signature spear techniques.

We don't know where Tres Cosmos stands within Maschenny's arsenal.

 

[Cinera]

Which means Halan's technique is arguably more destructive than Tres Cuernos.

No, it means that Maschenny was not serious with Tres Cuernos.

Haland is not someone that is capable of fighting Corps Commanders.

Also, it was a 2v1, Jinsung was depleting his strength to fight both him and Pudidy at the same time.

This is dumb. Jinsung just said that the Pudidy of then was very rusty because he'd been fighting scrubs for aeons. He wasn't in any trouble.

We don't know where Tres Cosmos stands within Maschenny's arsenal.

It's the only named technique she's shown so far, and the only solid lightning spear that she has created.


More than that though, Maschenny's spear technique should be abysmally above Haland's. To a level where it doesn't matter whether Tres Cuernos is a mid end or high end technique from her.

(Considering that she can create nameless lightning spears without a solid shape, it cannot be a low end technique).

Even Maschenny's low end spear techniques when used seriously should be far beyond Haland's technique.


Here's what SIU said:
Season 2 Episode 47 Blog Post

In Maschenny Zahard’s case, her lightning Spear technique is faaaaar stronger than a usual High Ranker’s spear technique.

Considering that Haland is:

• Just a Hatchling
  • See the performance of other Hatchlings like Meier, Candidy, Sicarius and Orari.
  • It's not at all clear that Haland is even a High Ranker yet.
    • None of the hatchlings were introduced as High Rankers.
• Someone that cannot fight against Corps Commander tier fighters.
  • Haland should be someone that is below the Top 300 High Ranker tier.

There's not really anything that places Haland above the "usual High Ranker".

Hell, there's not even anything that places Haland's spear technique decisively above the usual High Ranker Lightning Spear Bearers. The Lightning Spear technique is considered to be one of the ultimate spear techniques:

Season 2 Episode 47 Blog Post

(Compared to ordinary shinsu manipulation techniques,
Lightning Spear techniques are much faster and have higher accuracy.)

As it allows one to participate in both short and long-range battles, it is considered to be one of the ‘ultimate spear techniques’.

Source

So it may well be the case that the usual High Ranker Lightning Spear Bearer is > Haland.

And Maschenny is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a High Ranker Lightning Spear Bearer.

It's simply not consistent with the lore that Maschenny was serious when she used Tres Cuernos against Jinsung.



@kkck, @Fun, @PlotArmouredTitan, @Shadowlord123, @Merrie.

 

[PlotArmouredTitan]

It's simply not consistent with the lore that Maschenny was serious when she used Tres Cuernos against Jinsung.

But she did say at one time that she put in effort in an attack on JH. It was even at close range.

 

[hblock]

No, it means that Maschenny was not serious with Tres Cuernos.

Maschenny hersefl said that she "really" tried and had absolutely no reason to lie, but let me guess :
-Every saying not matching your headcanon = lie
-Evey saying matching your headcanon = truth.
Why am I not surprised ?

This is dumb. Jinsung just said that the Pudidy of then was very rusty because he'd been fighting scrubs for aeons. He wasn't in any trouble.

And ? Doesn't change the fact that Pudidy is a top tier fighter who can make things very difficult for Jinsung on his own (rusty or not) and had to deplet his focus and strength in regard to any attempt from Halan.
You're making it seem as if Pudidy lost half of his power or so, which is ridiculous.

Considering that Haland is:

• Just a Hatchling
  • See the performance of other Hatchlings like Meier, Candidy, Sicarius and Orari.
  • It's not at all clear that Haland is even a High Ranker yet.
    • None of the hatchlings were introduced as High Rankers.
• Someone that cannot fight against Corps Commander tier fighters.
  • Haland should be someone that is below the Top 300 High Ranker tier.

Taken literally, Maschenny's LS is >>>> Edahn's lol. As usual, you lack the ability to take things into perspective. Halan was noted by Hansung to be extremely strong without making distinction between him and Pudidy/Perseus. He may be weaker than a corps commander but he's easily comparable to a top 300 HRs if not a bit stronger.
One of his strongest spear skills, involving anima abilities on top of it, being stronger than a casual attack from Mas' is in no way far fetched.

The rest are just recycled hype with no direct comparison to any top tier ability or fighter. Yes, the LS is "one of" the storngest LSs (we didn't even have the confirmation that it's the strongest LS spear lol) and Maschenny is obviously >> average HRs. So, don't know why you bring something as irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Cinera]

But she did say at one time that she put in effort in an attack on JH. It was even at close range.

She was lying then as she often does.

Haland is "most High Rankers" and per SIU Maschenny's spear technique is far beyond most High Rankers:

마스체니 자하드의 경우는 전창술이 왠만한 하이랭커 창술보다 훨-씬 강합니다.

Translation:

In the case of Mascheny Zahard, the spear technique is much stronger than that of most high rankers.

Maschenny hersefl said that she "really" tried and had absolutely no reason to lie

Maschenny told Jinsung that she would give him a quick and painless death:

Spoiler

Right before she tortured him into unconsciousness and imprisoned him.

She also had "absolutely no reason to lie".

And ? Doesn't change the fact that Pudidy is a top tier fighter who can make things very difficult for Jinsung on his own (rusty or not) and had to deplet his focus and strength in regard to any attempt from Halan.
You're making it seem as if Pudidy lost half of his power or so, which is ridiculous.

Pudidy was not attacking Jinsung simultaneously with Haland.

Jinsung blocked Haland's attack and only that. The idea that Pudidy had somehow depleted him is nonsense.

Taken literally, Maschenny's LS is >>>> Edahn's lol.

No, because:

• Eduan uses his own unique technique.
• Eduan is not "most High Rankers".

Halan was noted by Hansung to be extremely strong without making distinction between him and Pudidy/Perseus. He may be weaker than a corps commander but he's easily comparable to a top 300 HRs if not a bit stronger.

But Perseus and Pudidy both commented that Haland was significantly weaker than them:

• Perseus called him an amateur that was not suitable for the role of Escort to the Family Leader.
• Pudidy said that he was chosen in order to give him experience.
• Pudidy later said that he cannot fight against Corps Commander tier fighters.

Not just that he's not comparable to them, but that he's not at the level to fight against them. This rules out Haland being comparable to a Top 300 High Ranker.

Hansung's rough estimate was simply not accurate.

Besides, Haland is probably going to fight Karaka.

One of his strongest spear skills, involving anima abilities on top of it, being stronger than a casual attack from Mas' is in no way far fetched.

Nah it is.

Since again, Maschenny's spear technique is far beyond "most"/"the usual" High Rankers.

It's not clear which High Rankers are exempt from "most", (the Corps Commanders have a good argument as "top level High Rankers") but nothing suggests that the likes of Haland is exempt.

The rest are just recycled hype with no direct comparison to any top tier ability or fighter. Yes, the LS is "one of" the storngest LSs (we didn't even have the confirmation that it's the strongest LS spear lol) and Maschenny is obviously >> average HRs. So, don't know why you bring something as irrelevant to the discussion.

Haland is not a Top Tier fighter. Nothing places him outside of "most High Rankers".
Hansung's hype as being comparable to Evankhell was proven to be categorically false, so it has no weight.

The Lightning Spear technique in general is one of the ultimate Spear techniques.

The Maschenny Style Lightning Spear technique is a special variant of the Lightning Spear technique that Maschenny invented.

 

[PlotArmouredTitan]

She was lying then as she often does.

Lying to who? She had absolutely no reason to lie at that time.

 

[Cinera]

Lying to who? She had absolutely no reason to lie at that time.

To Jinsung.

Maschenny told Jinsung that she would give him a quick and painless death:

Spoiler

Right before she tortured him into unconsciousness and imprisoned him.

She also had "absolutely no reason to lie".


You can interpret it as her fucking with him as well if you want.