ToG Is Going (has gone?) to Shit.

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Discuss.

 

[Consul N]

I'll bring up one of the issues I'm having. And that's with the whole Baam/White corruption plotline. Can somebody explain to me how Baam using and consolidating all the powers within him somehow leads to corruption. If we are talking strictly about the souls, Baam didnt actively go around killing people to take their souls like White. He was given them. So he's not suppose to use all of his powers to stay alive when a HR is actively targeting him? He's corrupt for doing so? I'm not trying to be funny. This shit makes absolutely no sense to me an i feel like I'm missing something.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I'll bring up one of the issues I'm having. And that's with the whole Baam/White corruption plotline. Can somebody explain to me how Baam using and consolidating all the powers within him somehow leads to corruption. If we are talking strictly about the souls, Baam didnt actively go around killing people to take their souls like White. He was given them. So he's not supposed to use all of his powers to stay alive when a HR is actively targeting him? He's corrupt for doing so? I'm not trying to be funny. This shit makes absolutely no sense to me an i feel like I'm missing something.

Personally, I don't believe in so-called 'dirty money' particularly if found by honest means. That's essentially the soul currency that Baam stumbled upon. Further, he gets to act in their stead to exact vengeance against White, so 'using' them is in fact in their mutual, symbiotic, and seemingly authorized benefit if it is in the pursuit of attacking their aggressor (White) or just any generalized noble cause.

Though, if 'using' the souls = 'burning' them in a combustion and exhaustible sense, maybe that's not good for them. Not sure that's the case. As usual SIU doesn't go into the mechanics of things.

I thought the 'dark change' was Baam's personality, irrespective of using the souls. It didn't seem like he got very 'dark' even so.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 18, 2021 ---

This thread is dedicated to complaints of:

- Lazy writing and/or cartoonish, unnecessary, out-of-place shtick (Rak is sooooo funny, har har har!)
- S3 artwork/character faces/lack of facial symmetry
- The needlessly slow distribution of lore 10+ years into the story
- Plotholes/SIU not explaining or under-explaining things
- Missed (yet very obvious) opportunities (such as reaction shots to Baam beating a ranker, etc.)
- Regulars getting too OP
- Baam being undermined
- Baam being a weak example of an irregular
- Pew-pew fights with unintelligible fight perspectives
- S3 fights dragging on way too long
- White shenanigans
(lots of overlap)

Those seem to be the (not completely comprehensive) list of complaints, and the trend seems to be accelerating.

Some will say this is complaining for the sake of complaining. Feel free to chime in as well.

 

[Merrie]

Hm I'm not sure. I think it's a matter of tastes. I don't like war stuff in general so I'm so-so with Season 3. I don't think we're halfway yet in season 3 so I can't give my full feelings about the direction yet.

Like in Hell Train in Season 2 was 50-50 to me, the intro about the Hell Train was nice. But I feel kinda disappointed the relevance of the numbers of the tickets and ticket fighting seem to not be relevant anymore (they probably have a bit of an excuse if they know White is on the train). Pre-boarding was meh, hated the tournament and the unneccessary fights with the guardian only to find it's remote based. Liked the Dallar Show for its interactions, loved the Name Hunt Station, felt so-so with Hidden Floor but it had introduced cool characters. Didn't liked the Floor of Death except for the lore about Bam.

And it's a bit of the same with Season 3 (like I didn't cared much for DengDeng but it did however showed Bam reflecting of his actions and whatnot so that was nice)

Personally for me, I don't have too much of an attachment with TOG except for very few characters like Endorsi, Khun, Anak, Shibisu and Hatz. And outside them, I read TOG for lore/worldbuilding so I don't really care much about the fights.

Now as a disclaimer. I don't hate or dislike TOG though I do feel somewhat less enthusiastic about it since Season 2. Doesn't mean I can't still find something I can appreciate in some chapters though. TOG is not my usual cup of tea since I haven't picked up a shounen (I think TOG is shounen in some way) and I admit I'm older than the intended audience atleast so I don't have expectations much. I think my complaints for TOG as a whole rather than just this season are:

-Slow character development. I feel like Khun and Endorsi atleast need some character development though I feel like SIU is holding them off for their own arcs. I mean there is Khun who is not overthinking just because he is not certain, willing to be more reckless but not too much and how he is pushing through despite hating struggling without hope as said in Hidden Floor. And there is Endorsi who atleast tries to show her care, still struggles with it because of her strong personality, when she would often put herself first. (Again, disclaimer. I don't hate Khun at all= the opposite actually. I don't like some of his aspects but it's kinda understandable to me and I feel there's much to his character to be yet unravelled)

-Writing wise is also a bit eh to me. I remember reading the Cage arc and kinda cringing with how many times "destiny" and "destined". And I don't recall how many times they've said "I don't have a choice." And like I said before in another chapter, I don't quite like much the narrator voice since comics could benefit with show than tell (like the fight with White).

And I feel like the chapter with Bam beating the Ranker could've been better because the montage and character reaction shots after Kallavan's ship was blown up somehow affected me more than it and Bam's feat was supposed to be something, big. I feel there were missed potentials for interactions like the rings with the second floor passers because I only saw it in the wiki that Khun got rid of them and Khun and Bam talking in the pocket before they reunited (was mentioned in a blog post). I think there was also a line in the Ranker defeat chapter where Cha said a bit about Bam's mother but it's not shown what (nor have we still seen what is in Arlene's pocket that is with Bam). And the use of flashbacks can be kind of a clutch.

I sometimes wished that some relationships were explored better. Like with Jinsung Ha. We got flashbacks of how much he meant to Bam after he was captured. I always got that he cared more for Bam but I didn't have the same feeling from Bam to him, that was like enough to go to war for him. I always liked Khun's dynamic with the other characters like Shibisu and Wangnan/Sweet and Sour, his bond with Rak too when they're in serious moments like in Season 2. As for power ups, I don't really care much. If SIU explains, cool. If not, then I just accept it as it is.

The only one I didn't really liked was Bam reviving Aria because that kinda strips off that Bam can't save everyone and accept that people will die in this war for his master. But on the bright side, current one has Maschenny messing up things, the confirmation that Khun is known to climb with Viole and it reached some of the Khun family (and he was probably not bluffing about his connections), Asensio making a reappearance, and Vicente taking over Hoaquin so it's not overall bad to me. Plus I was glad that we finally had some antagonists from Jahad's side and probably will have info on the LPB.

At most, I feel like my opinions are more or less about the characters as characters if that makes sense. Relationships, realizations/rationalizations, interactions etc. TOG is kinda more plot driven so things are fast-paced. It has one of the most interesting lore and worldbuilding I've read but it doesn't really make up for the characterization and exploration of other characters. So overall, i don't think it's gotten so bad because at best, TOG is readable to me, not that great. But maybe thats just me having not too much investment or attachment. Will like some, will dislike some. It's SIU that knows his characters and story he wants to present best at the end of the day.

 

[kkck]

Welp, soul wise the battle against white marked a decidedly different approach on bam's regard. Back when bam got the souls he was pretty adamant about not using them and even protecting them. Then we got to part 3 and bam made a compromised and started burning souls for power. But even at that point there was some element of the souls willingly granting bam power. But then we move on to the final fight against white and we see that bam is devouring the souls as they fruitlessly attempt to flee in terror. The actual implications of bam doing this at this point remain unclear. Assuming this was the dark change in question I think the issue here was ultimately that SIU didn't really drive home the point that the souls had actual value. Hence bam devouring them didn't get any emotion of us readers.

 

[Sanity Check]

I'll let the arc conclude before deciding.

Was this necessary. ↑


Wouldn't thryssa horns more closely resemble Hell Joe than Loki.

White got the biggest panel spreads and best art over the past 5+ chapters. As if he were the main character in the series.

Things are definitely getting strange.

 

[Wha]

This thread is dedicated to complaints of:

- Lazy writing and/or cartoonish, unnecessary, out-of-place shtick (Rak is sooooo funny, har har har!)
- S3 artwork/character faces/lack of facial symmetry
- The needlessly slow distribution of lore 10+ years into the story
- Plotholes/SIU not explaining or under-explaining things
- Missed (yet very obvious) opportunities (such as reaction shots to Baam beating a ranker, etc.)
- Regulars getting too OP
- Baam being undermined
- Baam being a weak example of an irregular
- Pew-pew fights with unintelligible fight perspectives
- S3 fights dragging on way too long
- White shenanigans

yes.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 18, 2021 ---

to be a little bit more serious and precise - he started to loose me when he started to contradict himself (the rules he himself established, the lore) too much.
When he hyped someone, only to destroy the hype. If we were in Pro Wrestling, we would say that FUG got buried, by example.

Him not telling us important stuff (how do spells EXACTLY work, what's the name of all the heads, how do people get their rank (the exact % power - influence - whatever) not explaining some things so that he isn't bound by them (and can change it if he likes to).

And as of lately, the story and characters are a mess (in my opinion). Khel Hellam......he contradicts himself so much, he kinda is a contradiction.

And White.....i don't know. the thing is, SIU had so many opportunities to put a little bit more sense into all of this.
Why didn't he make White into gustangs personal bug? On the hellfloor, gustang ridicules White and then he is like "but i think there might be a way for you to join your father up there. Are you interested?" And the whole thing would make so much more sense, White doing what White does would be more logical. instead of the "i don't like your eyes bullshit".

I noticed that week after week i got less and less invested. Now, i don't really care about the weekly release, in the past i was so hyped for it.

I am also not against power ups. I want them to feel real. The only character who should be able to pull shit like that is Bam. Nowadays, the 1000 years of Kaiser, backed by her family, look like a bad joke. 1000 years to get the kind of expertise Miseng got after using the damn clicker for a few weeks (i know it's not a fair comparision, but i hope you get my drift). That was already stretching it. But now? The whole power system is broken.

At this point, Karaka could, right now, fight Kallavan and win. because something unforseen and super mysterious happens via Bam and Karaka skips a few levels to be in the top 100. It's realistic now. Because Khun and Rak showed that logical growth is a thing of the past.


I could go on and on about it.

 

[toil]

FWIW the option I would have checked is: "i saw some folks running away from the outhouse, i hear a bigass fan warming up, but haven't yet heard the familiar pitter-patter of a power-assisted excrement splatter...". I am right at "set a calendar alert for this time next year, binge catch-up, see how it is." Will wait it out until November and then decide.

FWIW I think what we are seeing is a case of SIU speed-running his way to the big moments / plot moments he always had in mind...but failing to deliver because he's skipping the necessary setup, build up, and contextualization. Not defending how it's going, just trying to characterize how it comes across.

 

[King Dryst]

FWIW I think what we are seeing is a case of SIU speed-running his way to the big moments / plot moments he always had in mind...but failing to deliver because he's skipping the necessary setup, build up, and contextualization. Not defending how it's going, just trying to characterize how it comes across.

Which is probably being driven by his now-unfixable health issues, and an ongoing worry that if he doesn't rush through the story then his body is going to give out on him before he can finish it. Shitty situation to be in, to be sure, and it's a problem that doesn't offer any good solutions.

 

[kkck]

yes.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 18, 2021 ---

to be a little bit more serious and precise - he started to loose me when he started to contradict himself (the rules he himself established, the lore) too much.
When he hyped someone, only to destroy the hype. If we were in Pro Wrestling, we would say that FUG got buried, by example.

Him not telling us important stuff (how do spells EXACTLY work, what's the name of all the heads, how do people get their rank (the exact % power - influence - whatever) not explaining some things so that he isn't bound by them (and can change it if he likes to).

And as of lately, the story and characters are a mess (in my opinion). Khel Hellam......he contradicts himself so much, he kinda is a contradiction.

And White.....i don't know. the thing is, SIU had so many opportunities to put a little bit more sense into all of this.
Why didn't he make White into gustangs personal bug? On the hellfloor, gustang ridicules White and then he is like "but i think there might be a way for you to join your father up there. Are you interested?" And the whole thing would make so much more sense, White doing what White does would be more logical. instead of the "i don't like your eyes bullshit".

I noticed that week after week i got less and less invested. Now, i don't really care about the weekly release, in the past i was so hyped for it.

I am also not against power ups. I want them to feel real. The only character who should be able to pull shit like that is Bam. Nowadays, the 1000 years of Kaiser, backed by her family, look like a bad joke. 1000 years to get the kind of expertise Miseng got after using the damn clicker for a few weeks (i know it's not a fair comparision, but i hope you get my drift). That was already stretching it. But now? The whole power system is broken.

At this point, Karaka could, right now, fight Kallavan and win. because something unforseen and super mysterious happens via Bam and Karaka skips a few levels to be in the top 100. It's realistic now. Because Khun and Rak showed that logical growth is a thing of the past.


I could go on and on about it.

I wouldn't really hold the bits with the spells or the family heads against SIU. We do have have a basic idea of how spells work, however a few extra details mostly on the beings that grant them would be nice. I am curious as to whether zahard can be a being that grants spells...

The series has been pretty clear for a long time that ranks are at the discretion of the ranking administration office, and within that somewhat arbitrary. I think people expect to much out of ranks. Evankhel dropped out of the top 100 because she lost her job as ruler, yuri got a rank boost due to getting the green april... Ranks are inherently fuzzy.

As for kaiser... yes? As skilled as she is it's pretty clear that people who climb enough will easily defeat her. She was stuck on a floor for 1000 years for very bad reasons. I would also argue the miseng bit is bad framing. Did miseng get an incredible power boost? Yes, in fact she did. Is miseng as skilled as kaiser? Definitely not... Experience does count for something in this series. Would bam's friends who didn't user the clicker beat miseng? I think this is a better question than what most people give it credit for lol. The series hasn't been clear on this but IMO fully realized shinsoo attributes are the stuff of rankers and among bam's no one else has them other than the few that got them at the hidden floor.

I don't think karaka has any path to defeating kallavan tbh. I suppose a powerup is not straight up impossible but karaka has evidenced having zero competitiveness at that level. The only path I see for him and even then it's a pretty big stretch is spell shenanigans with his armor and heart. Something like him taking of his armor revealing his true power or something... At the cost of actually being in danger during fights. SIU has made the point that TOG is sort of like a video game at times. In that context spells are essentially cheat codes.

TBH I don't know what people expect of aguero and rak lol. SIU is clearly going well out of his way to maintain their relevance. I dislike the souls powerup in general but it's not a particularly large stretch that SIU would have the other main characters in his story have their PL explode. SIU is not getting rid of aguero and rak or even the other kids from the second floor... We have seen aguero's talent entirely recontextualized and then he keeps collecting new powers... Rak is essentially the same type of creature that resides within evankhel and khel hellam... And his power is still mostly sealed.

Lore wise we know the family heads didn't climb alone. You have a few big names within the lore of people who climbed with them and today hold special positions within the tower. Quadrado and luslec... Is it that much a stretch that bam would get exceptional companions for his climb?

 

[Wha]

Which is probably being driven by his now-unfixable health issues, and an ongoing worry that if he doesn't rush through the story then his body is going to give out on him before he can finish it. Shitty situation to be in, to be sure, and it's a problem that doesn't offer any good solutions.

that is one possibility, yes. But even if it is true, it doesn't change much for me. Would i feel sorry for him? Kinda, but i also feel sry for every guy out there dying from hunger or some other shit right now.
It's still not a good story anymore, at least in my opinion.

I wouldn't really hold the bits with the spells or the family heads against SIU. We do have have a basic idea of how spells work, however a few extra details mostly on the beings that grant them would be nice. I am curious as to whether zahard can be a being that grants spells...

The series has been pretty clear for a long time that ranks are at the discretion of the ranking administration office, and within that somewhat arbitrary. I think people expect to much out of ranks. Evankhel dropped out of the top 100 because she lost her job as ruler, yuri got a rank boost due to getting the green april... Ranks are inherently fuzzy.

As for kaiser... yes? As skilled as she is it's pretty clear that people who climb enough will easily defeat her. She was stuck on a floor for 1000 years for very bad reasons. I would also argue the miseng bit is bad framing. Did miseng get an incredible power boost? Yes, in fact she did. Is miseng as skilled as kaiser? Definitely not... Experience does count for something in this series. Would bam's friends who didn't user the clicker beat miseng? I think this is a better question than what most people give it credit for lol. The series hasn't been clear on this but IMO fully realized shinsoo attributes are the stuff of rankers and among bam's no one else has them other than the few that got them at the hidden floor.

I don't think karaka has any path to defeating kallavan tbh. I suppose a powerup is not straight up impossible but karaka has evidenced having zero competitiveness at that level. The only path I see for him and even then it's a pretty big stretch is spell shenanigans with his armor and heart. Something like him taking of his armor revealing his true power or something... At the cost of actually being in danger during fights. SIU has made the point that TOG is sort of like a video game at times. In that context spells are essentially cheat codes.

TBH I don't know what people expect of aguero and rak lol. SIU is clearly going well out of his way to maintain their relevance. I dislike the souls powerup in general it's not a particularly large stretch that SIU would have the other main characters in his story have their PL explode. SIU is not getting rid of aguero and rak or even the other kids from the second floor... We have seen aguero's talent entirely recontextualized and then he keeps collecting new powers... Rak is essentially the same type of creature that resides within evankhel and khel hellam... And his power is still mostly sealed.

Lore wise we know the family heads didn't climb alone. You have a few big names within the lore of people who climbed with them and today hold special positions within the tower. Quadrado and luslec... Is it that much a stretch that bam would get exceptional companions for his climb?

But your question would be answered if mine was, so we are kinda on the same page here (SIU explaining spells in more proper detail).

Again, we are on the same page. I agree that the ranks are fuzzy - and that is my problem right there. He should be more clear about that stuff (in my opinion).

It's about the time it takes for the power up.
Take Yuri. it took hundreds of years til she got from Ranker to High Ranker. It took her 500 years to climb the tower, which is considered fast. As the one that resembles their head the most, she is far from being normal. She is an exception among exceptions.
But what Khun and rak did right now.....i doubt she ever did something similar (or she wouldn't have needed hundreds of years for her journey). You can do that with every other top tier character, except for Adori (or Enne probably). Even irregulars don't have that kind of growth rate, from what we have seen and heard (edhuan on the hidden floor gave us some insight, both he and Zahard were surprised by Bam. i wonder what they would say about Khun and rak.....).
And Khun fire fish.....so there are some yeon rankers and high Rankers that have something like this? But no one of them ever got it, in all of their history, while he climbed the tower? But Khun got it......Common now. That is, at best, very very unlikely.

I don't think karaka has any path to defeating kallavan tbh.

Hahahaha, why am i not surprised? You are defending c class regulars getting Ranker powers (at least it damn looks like it), but you can't picture karaka going from high ranker to top 100? let's skip him. Doesn't make sense to discuss this.




Again, it's about the way the power up is done. Let's take that cheat spear from Rak. It means that the workshop was able to create a super duper logic defying weapon for ancient ones. Ok. What about the 10 heads and Zahard and their descendants? If the Workshop can do shit like that, why do we only hear about that now? Why aren#t there more cheat characters? More regulars beating rankers or high Rankers?

And that is the thing. Instead of explaining it properly, he just leaves it there, floating around, without much information to discuss. So if you want to defend it, you can, because you can interpret whatever the hell you like (because Siu didn't establish enough bounderies).

 

[kkck]

But your question would be answered if mine was, so we are kinda on the same page here (SIU explaining spells in more proper detail).

Again, we are on the same page. I agree that the ranks are fuzzy - and that is my problem right there. He should be more clear about that stuff (in my opinion).

It's about the time it takes for the power up.
Take Yuri. it took hundreds of years til she got from Ranker to High Ranker. It took her 500 years to climb the tower, which is considered fast. As the one that resembles their head the most, she is far from being normal. She is an exception among exceptions.
But what Khun and rak did right now.....i doubt she ever did something similar (or she wouldn't have needed hundreds of years for her journey). You can do that with every other top tier character, except for Adori (or Enne probably). Even irregulars don't have that kind of growth rate, from what we have seen and heard (edhuan on the hidden floor gave us some insight, both he and Zahard were surprised by Bam. i wonder what they would say about Khun and rak.....).
And Khun fire fish.....so there are some yeon rankers and high Rankers that have something like this? But no one of them ever got it, in all of their history, while he climbed the tower? But Khun got it......Common now. That is, at best, very very unlikely.


Hahahaha, why am i not surprised? You are defending c class regulars getting Ranker powers (at least it damn looks like it), but you can't picture karaka going from high ranker to top 100? let's skip him. Doesn't make sense to discuss this.


Again, it's about the way the power up is done. Let's take that cheat spear from Rak. It means that the workshop was able to create a super duper logic defying weapon for ancient ones. Ok. What about the 10 heads and Zahard and their descendants? If the Workshop can do shit like that, why do we only hear about that now? Why aren#t there more cheat characters? More regulars beating rankers or high Rankers?

And that is the thing. Instead of explaining it properly, he just leaves it there, floating around, without much information to discuss. So if you want to defend it, you can, because you can interpret whatever the hell you like (because Siu didn't establish enough bounderies).

I don't really know what else SIU could do to show ranks as being fuzzy tbh. We saw jinsung, a top100 ranker, get his ass handed to him by kallavan, a top 300.... To me this is absurdly clear.

Rak's spear was not made by the workship iirc. At least it hasn't been stated. Though to be fair it sounds plausible that the spear could have been made by the workshop for ancients. I do take issue with rak being able to fire such a powerful weapon without suffering any consequences though. Hatz is pretty much out of the arc due to activating a much weaker ignition weapon...

Based on what are you saying irregulars don't have that kind of growth rate? We saw data eduan and zahard as they were when they completed the hell train. They were absurdly powerful by regular standards. Zahard basically foderized data mascheny. Urek pretty much broke the hidden floor. And he was better than hon at floor 100, a full 34 floors before his climb was finished. Bam managed to win against data zahard pretty much because he grew through the fight. If bam has to defeat zahard by floor 134 then imagine how much he has to grow every floor to get there. Or more if bam intends on passing hon's test. At least a karaka's worth per floor if we consider karaka was not even 1% of urek's power.

It sounds pretty unlikely that aguero and rak are ranker level right now. But this definitely torpedoed them. Karaka wise, I just don't think he has the amount of plot aguero and rak have. Plot wise it's mostly his true form so to speak that could torpedo him a tier or two above, if siu is into that sort of thing. Meanwhile rak and aguero are in the middle of a great journey alongside a being comparable to zahard. Who knows, it's entirely possible that merely being bam's friend results in an actual boost. Along with "fate" conveniently giving bam a group of friends so absurdly exceptional it contained an ancient, 2 princesses and multiple members of the 10 families along with other exceptional folk.

 

[toil]

Which is probably being driven by his now-unfixable health issues, and an ongoing worry that if he doesn't rush through the story then his body is going to give out on him before he can finish it. Shitty situation to be in, to be sure, and it's a problem that doesn't offer any good solutions.

Exactly, and unfortunately. I personally would be fine with SIU going the xenogears route: do an abrupt timeskip to just before the end, have post-timeskip Baam et al get us caught up by narrating an extended flashback / key-event-summary, and then resume real-time narration just long enough to wrap things up. I'd joked about this when SIU went back on health break mid-S3 health break, but now it's not really a joke—this is turning into a story I'd rather be told than shown (and rather read-about than actually read).

That's actually been the theme for me for all of S3: I can usually see how what SIU's doing could've been good if he'd told it differently, but that's it. It's also been in this uncanny territory of objectively moving a lot faster vis-a-vis S2, while also feeling very slow: the faster pace undermines the feeling of significance to the plot events, and having gone this long with nothing resonating the overall feeling for me is one of excruciating slowness. I don't think SIU intended for all of S3, thus far, to read like the meandering prologue before the real action begins, but that's how it's felt for me (from the get-go).

Trying to keep an open mind, but am increasingly pessimistic.

 

[Wha]

I don't really know what else SIU could do to show ranks as being fuzzy tbh. We saw jinsung, a top100 ranker, get his ass handed to him by kallavan, a top 300.... To me this is absurdly clear.

Rak's spear was not made by the workship iirc. At least it hasn't been stated. Though to be fair it sounds plausible that the spear could have been made by the workshop for ancients. I do take issue with rak being able to fire such a powerful weapon without suffering any consequences though. Hatz is pretty much out of the arc due to activating a much weaker ignition weapon...

Based on what are you saying irregulars don't have that kind of growth rate? We saw data eduan and zahard as they were when they completed the hell train. They were absurdly powerful by regular standards. Zahard basically foderized data mascheny. Urek pretty much broke the hidden floor. And he was better than hon at floor 100, a full 34 floors before his climb was finished. Bam managed to win against data zahard pretty much because he grew through the fight. If bam has to defeat zahard by floor 134 then imagine how much he has to grow every floor to get there. Or more if bam intends on passing hon's test. At least a karaka's worth per floor if we consider karaka was not even 1% of urek's power.

It sounds pretty unlikely that aguero and rak are ranker level right now. But this definitely torpedoed them. Karaka wise, I just don't think he has the amount of plot aguero and rak have. Plot wise it's mostly his true form so to speak that could torpedo him a tier or two above, if siu is into that sort of thing. Meanwhile rak and aguero are in the middle of a great journey alongside a being comparable to zahard. Who knows, it's entirely possible that merely being bam's friend results in an actual boost. Along with "fate" conveniently giving bam a group of friends so absurdly exceptional it contained an ancient, 2 princesses and multiple members of the 10 families along with other exceptional folk.

Kallavan is top 300? Did i miss something? Where did you get that from?
If we had a clearer grasp of how exactly the ranks are given, we could grasp the power level more clearly and a lot of discussions and possibilities would be dealt with (is Karaka a high ranker or not discussion would be one example that could have been avoided).

I think it was stated, but i am too lazy to look it up right now. I might edit this post in the future, to post a source (then again, not sure if i will do it at all)
We agree on the last part.

Based on both Data Zahard and Data Edhuan being more than amazed by the fact that Bam grew within a month to be a challenge for Zahard. Considering pre Data Floor Bam and Bam fighting Data Z - do you think that Khun and Rak suddenly being able to fly threw the sky (which was hinted to be exclusive for Rankers - and Irregulars) is a lesser or bigger feat? Bam needed a month, Khun and Rak a few seconds.

If Karaka is really team Bam, i am pretty sure he will get a monst power up. Like Yuri. I believed that before as well. i even liked the idea of Khun and Rak being relevant in the showdown. I only thought that it would take way more time (via a time skip or something like that). Now, i could see it happening in an instant. An EoB like, fire fish whatever power upgrade. I mean, SIU made this possibilites themselves. For Karaka it could be a spell upgrade, or absorbing something a la White/Rak/Khun.
For Yuri it could be unleashing her "hidden hidden ancestor whatever potential". Or just no explanation at all.
Nobody is save, not even Mule Love. If he wants to, anybody can be like Khun and Rak, rising in an instant to heights way above their paygrade - c class regulars.
Or irrelevant, like Poken. With no explanation whatsoever. And if i really thought about it, i could find more and more examples.
But it's not like i want to persuade you to feel the same way as i do.
I am merely explaining my point of view.

 

[kkck]

Kallavan is top 300? Did i miss something? Where did you get that from?
If we had a clearer grasp of how exactly the ranks are given, we could grasp the power level more clearly and a lot of discussions and possibilities would be dealt with (is Karaka a high ranker or not discussion would be one example that could have been avoided).

I think it was stated, but i am too lazy to look it up right now. I might edit this post in the future, to post a source (then again, not sure if i will do it at all)
We agree on the last part.

Based on both Data Zahard and Data Edhuan being more than amazed by the fact that Bam grew within a month to be a challenge for Zahard. Considering pre Data Floor Bam and Bam fighting Data Z - do you think that Khun and Rak suddenly being able to fly threw the sky (which was hinted to be exclusive for Rankers - and Irregulars) is a lesser or bigger feat? Bam needed a month, Khun and Rak a few seconds.

If Karaka is really team Bam, i am pretty sure he will get a monst power up. Like Yuri. I believed that before as well. i even liked the idea of Khun and Rak being relevant in the showdown. I only thought that it would take way more time (via a time skip or something like that). Now, i could see it happening in an instant. An EoB like, fire fish whatever power upgrade. I mean, SIU made this possibilites themselves. For Karaka it could be a spell upgrade, or absorbing something a la White/Rak/Khun.
For Yuri it could be unleashing her "hidden hidden ancestor whatever potential". Or just no explanation at all.
Nobody is save, not even Mule Love. If he wants to, anybody can be like Khun and Rak, rising in an instant to heights way above their paygrade - c class regulars.
Or irrelevant, like Poken. With no explanation whatsoever. And if i really thought about it, i could find more and more examples.
But it's not like i want to persuade you to feel the same way as i do.
I am merely explaining my point of view.

At an absolute bare minimum kallavan punches at the top 300 tier. By all accounts and even going by what SIU has said kallavan is among the stronger people at the war.

But as I said, we do know how the ranks are given. So no, knowing more about the rankings won't tell us more than it already does about PLs. If ranks were about PLs then the LPB sniper wouldn't be a top 300 high ranker regardless of how many top 300s she snipes into oblivion or the top 300 would be accessible to people who don't kill top 300 high rankers. Ranks are assigned by the ranking administration office which is lead by some unranked asshole who has the balls to tell motherfucking urek mazino to go lick a belend when he demands an explanation for his rank. In story the ranks are inherently fuzzy and up to the whims of the ranking administration office.

Bam has been able to fly for a long time. He has been using his wonsul techniques to fly since he fought love at the start of season 2. At the hidden floor he came up with a different way to use them that is more wing like. Of course, bam just using wonsul skills at all is inherently BS since under normal circumstances that requires special permission from an admin. it's true that the implication was that this was a rankers limited skill before though, just pointing out how long bam has been flying.

To me it's unclear whether yuri even needs a powerup. She simply has never been pushed in combat. Whenever she punches stuff fights have been more or less over.

The question would be whether aguero an rak are actually ranker level. I doubt it will be as immediate as that. That said with their boosts at the hidden floor they were probably altogether above the D class an at least pretty high up the C class pecking order... Add boosts since then and perhaps them being comparable to B class isn't that insane (though I am a bit of the idea that B and A class at least have far wider power gaps than the previous categories). WIth this boost it does look like SIU is aiming for them to reach ranker class even before what I had anticipated before.

Welp, just absorbing stuff should not be enough for a massive powerup in aguero's or rak's case. At least not an immediate one anyways. Neither of them has bam's learning curve. As in, even if they get powers it will still take some time for them to become competent at them. Most of aguero's and rak's skills likely are rookie tier by ranker standards. Even bam began to breach the skillgap only recently. Rak is a bit of a mystery though, I don't think any PL is off limit for rak once his power is fully released from the curse...

 

[Wha]

At an absolute bare minimum kallavan punches at the top 300 tier. By all accounts and even going by what SIU has said kallavan is among the stronger people at the war.

But as I said, we do know how the ranks are given. So no, knowing more about the rankings won't tell us more than it already does about PLs. If ranks were about PLs then the LPB sniper wouldn't be a top 300 high ranker regardless of how many top 300s she snipes into oblivion or the top 300 would be accessible to people who don't kill top 300 high rankers. Ranks are assigned by the ranking administration office which is lead by some unranked asshole who has the balls to tell motherfucking urek mazino to go lick a belend when he demands an explanation for his rank. In story the ranks are inherently fuzzy and up to the whims of the ranking administration office.

Bam has been able to fly for a long time. He has been using his wonsul techniques to fly since he fought love at the start of season 2. At the hidden floor he came up with a different way to use them that is more wing like. Of course, bam just using wonsul skills at all is inherently BS since under normal circumstances that requires special permission from an admin. it's true that the implication was that this was a rankers limited skill before though, just pointing out how long bam has been flying.

To me it's unclear whether yuri even needs a powerup. She simply has never been pushed in combat. Whenever she punches stuff fights have been more or less over.

The question would be whether aguero an rak are actually ranker level. I doubt it will be as immediate as that. That said with their boosts at the hidden floor they were probably altogether above the D class an at least pretty high up the C class pecking order... Add boosts since then and perhaps them being comparable to B class isn't that insane (though I am a bit of the idea that B and A class at least have far wider power gaps than the previous categories). WIth this boost it does look like SIU is aiming for them to reach ranker class even before what I had anticipated before.

Welp, just absorbing stuff should not be enough for a massive powerup in aguero's or rak's case. At least not an immediate one anyways. Neither of them has bam's learning curve. As in, even if they get powers it will still take some time for them to become competent at them. Most of aguero's and rak's skills likely are rookie tier by ranker standards. Even bam began to breach the skillgap only recently. Rak is a bit of a mystery though, I don't think any PL is off limit for rak once his power is fully released from the curse...

If you put it likethat,we agree. If you say it like this

We saw jinsung, a top100 ranker, get his ass handed to him by kallavan, a top 300.... To me this is absurdly clear.

it has a completely different meaning.

So we know huh? Well then, please explain to me why Adori is higher ranked than Gustang.And don't give me that "her influence is higher". Even if that is the case, her influence is higher than that of Enryu or Phanta as well. Both of them are Number 1&2 because of their power and ONE FEAT.
So is the power gap between Gustang and Adopri not that big, that she can be ranked higher solely for her influence -and is it that much higher than Gustangs?

ANd there were a few situations when they said " he is a regular and can fly" or something like that. And he could only fly after the hidden floor. That with Mule is differen, because it uses the blue shield.
It wasn't Bam flying, the shield did that. He was merely riding it.
Khun an Rak flying right now - wasn't it explained that flying has got something to do with your shinsoo profiency and that normaly only ranker can do it?

To me it's unclear whether yuri even needs a powerup. She simply has never been pushed in combat. Whenever she punches stuff fights have been more or less over.

Of course it is. At this point, i am not even surprised about your double standards (based on your sympathy?) any more.
She did an awful lot of punching against the weak Karaka and wasnn't able to solve the problem with her punching.
Hell Joe? She needed a powerupfor that and screwed up, igniting both. But let's be honest, even with one she wouldn't have been his match.
Kallavan.
Yuri only punches her way threw Rankers (hell train). Apart from that, she never showed that much to begin with.
Name one high ranker she really defeated? I can't even remember a high ranker, apart from Kallavan,Joe and Karaka to fight her......
Edit: Forgot about Cheonhee. That's the one high ranker she destroyed.
Which doesn't count to much considering Hansung did a similar feat.

experience wise it is Bam that struggles to put his powers to proper use. Khun immediatly knew how to use that ice spear thing.
Raks stone shiel is definitly no ordinary thing.He has got his cheat spear, which was able to injure high Rankers while Rak was a regular.Now, with his power boost, he should be a one man army, snipering everybody down......at least a mere ranker ahouls be no match for him and that is the problem.

Speaking of Rak's curse, that is another thing that is pissing me off. You have this power up set in place and you take this White bullshit. Why not slowly releasing the curse, giving him more and more power along the way?

 

[kkck]

So we know huh? Well then, please explain to me why Adori is higher ranked than Gustang.And don't give me that "her influence is higher". Even if that is the case, her influence is higher than that of Enryu or Phanta as well. Both of them are Number 1&2 because of their power and ONE FEAT.
So is the power gap between Gustang and Adopri not that big, that she can be ranked higher solely for her influence -and is it that much higher than Gustangs?

ANd there were a few situations when they said " he is a regular and can fly" or something like that. And he could only fly after the hidden floor. That with Mule is differen, because it uses the blue shield.
It wasn't Bam flying, the shield did that. He was merely riding it.
Khun an Rak flying right now - wasn't it explained that flying has got something to do with your shinsoo profiency and that normaly only ranker can do it?


Of course it is. At this point, i am not even surprised about your double standards (based on your sympathy?) any more.
She did an awful lot of punching against the weak Karaka and wasnn't able to solve the problem with her punching.
Hell Joe? She needed a powerupfor that and screwed up, igniting both. But let's be honest, even with one she wouldn't have been his match.
Kallavan.
Yuri only punches her way threw Rankers (hell train). Apart from that, she never showed that much to begin with.
Name one high ranker she really defeated? I can't even remember a high ranker, apart from Kallavan,Joe and Karaka to fight her......
Edit: Forgot about Cheonhee. That's the one high ranker she destroyed.
Which doesn't count to much considering Hansung did a similar feat.

experience wise it is Bam that struggles to put his powers to proper use. Khun immediatly knew how to use that ice spear thing.
Raks stone shiel is definitly no ordinary thing.He has got his cheat spear, which was able to injure high Rankers while Rak was a regular.Now, with his power boost, he should be a one man army, snipering everybody down......at least a mere ranker ahouls be no match for him and that is the problem.

Speaking of Rak's curse, that is another thing that is pissing me off. You have this power up set in place and you take this White bullshit. Why not slowly releasing the curse, giving him more and more power along the way?

Wait, why can't I say adori has morei influence than gustang? That's a completely reasonable point to make. Adori is by all intents and purposes the leader of the zahard family (after zahard). The zahard family, per the lore, is the strongest "family" in the tower. Of course, adori is absurdly powerful but her actually being able to defeat a family head is impossible.

Welp, bam still used his wonsol skills to fly after the hidden floor. It just took a different form than the disk he surfed on.

Karaka's reaction to a punch from yuri was "holy shit I am about to die". Karaka was utterly crushed by yuri and he couldn't put up anything even remote close to a fight. Karaka literally failed to chip of 1 hp out of yuri's health bar. Add to that, yuri did utterly obliterate karaka after (and he then regenerated at the hell train). And come on, hell joe was absurdly powerful. On top of that he could negate shinsoo control altogether, a powerup would have done jack shit in that scenario. Why wouldn't it count because hansung did it? Cheonhee is yet another ranker than failed to chip off 1 hp from yuri's healthbar. It's quite convenient that the stuff yuri has done doesn't count for some reason lol.

Welp, we have no idea of what releasing the curse will actually require. A bit of it came off at the hidden floor... I would assume the power of a measly high ranker like white is insufficient to budge a curse placed or at worst commissioned by zahard. Given rak's heritage I am of the idea we should think of him as having an utterly BS level of talent and potential. Even data eduan made the points that the ancients who travelled with him were incredibly powerful. And their power was sufficient for a family head like hana.

 

[Wha]

Wait, why can't I say adori has morei influence than gustang? That's a completely reasonable point to make. Adori is by all intents and purposes the leader of the zahard family (after zahard). The zahard family, per the lore, is the strongest "family" in the tower. Of course, adori is absurdly powerful but her actually being able to defeat a family head is impossible.

Welp, bam still used his wonsol skills to fly after the hidden floor. It just took a different form than the disk he surfed on.

Karaka's reaction to a punch from yuri was "holy shit I am about to die". Karaka was utterly crushed by yuri and he couldn't put up anything even remote close to a fight. Karaka literally failed to chip of 1 hp out of yuri's health bar. Add to that, yuri did utterly obliterate karaka after (and he then regenerated at the hell train). And come on, hell joe was absurdly powerful. On top of that he could negate shinsoo control altogether, a powerup would have done jack shit in that scenario. Why wouldn't it count because hansung did it? Cheonhee is yet another ranker than failed to chip off 1 hp from yuri's healthbar. It's quite convenient that the stuff yuri has done doesn't count for some reason lol.

Welp, we have no idea of what releasing the curse will actually require. A bit of it came off at the hidden floor... I would assume the power of a measly high ranker like white is insufficient to budge a curse placed or at worst commissioned by zahard. Given rak's heritage I am of the idea we should think of him as having an utterly BS level of talent and potential. Even data eduan made the points that the ancients who travelled with him were incredibly powerful. And their power was sufficient for a family head like hana.

Are you trolling right now or are you serious!?
I get the impression you don't care about understanding my point of view or explaining yours to me, you just want to be right. So you twist the things in a way they fit your narrative. You can do that, but not with me.
Look for someone else.

 

[kkck]

Are you trolling right now or are you serious!?
I get the impression you don't care about understanding my point of view or explaining yours to me, you just want to be right. So you twist the things in a way they fit your narrative. You can do that, but not with me.
Look for someone else.

Um, not sure what parts you take issue with here. Add to that, you are the one that conveniently dismisses perfectly reasonable explanations for stuff that goes on in the tower. Like adori being ranked higher than an irregular solely on influence or dismissing yuri's victories because... reasons?

 

[Wha]

Um, not sure what parts you take issue with here. Add to that, you are the one that conveniently dismisses perfectly reasonable explanations for stuff that goes on in the tower. Like adori being ranked higher than an irregular solely on influence or dismissing yuri's victories because... reasons?

So yes. Well then, look for someone else
If you really aren't, read our conversation again, start by my first post and pay attention to what i say. My exact problem with the ranking system by example. Not that hard to find my issue with your way of arguing. You are smart, you will figure it out.