Zahard, The 10GW and secrecy

[akio18]

Hi, guys! Unanswered question: Why does Zahard and the 10GW dislike their pictures being taken? I mean, considering they are the most famous people in the tower and have been for literally thousands of years you would think their face would be as recongnizable as Michael Jackson's. And yet, that is not the case. I can understand that 5000 years ago during the war their identities could've been classified, but as I said 5000 years have passed. Zahard and the FH's rule is unchallenged. Traumerei doesn't like even some of his own branch family heads to see his face. Gustang who's apparently the Tower's most celebrated author is unknown - White, the Slayer didn't know how he looked like, he just felt an immense pressure.. And it gets worse: Urek, who's not Zahard or the big 10 is unknown. You'd think that a famous irregular like him should be front page news, and yet in the Zygaena arc neither the regulars involved nor the Yeon family rankers know who he is. The guy even tattooed his name on his back so that people would recognize him for goodness sake. And if you thought that's weird, all this secrecy doesn't apply to the pricesses. Androssi even has a dedicated fanclub and merchandise. If you guys have a clue about what's going on please tell me. I refuse to believe it's just a writers gimmick, so unless a Death note exists in the tower there should be no reason why the inhabitans of the tower shouldn't know the faces of whom I just mentioned.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Add to it no one seems suspicious of Wangnan's face, possibly The Captain as well. The don't seem to be familiar as Zahard to anyone.

 

[Carvedilol25mg]

Regarding this issue, I would like to say that the mass media in the tower is probably under jahad rule and controlled by tu perie with his big opera or golden eye or whatever that thing was called.

It is the only way that information doesn't spread in the tower. It isn't related just to the family heads, people don't really have access to information regarding the history of the war with fug either (hidden garden data being deleted).

Probably only the agenda of jahad is being shown on tv's, and most of it probably is related to the princesses.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

 

[kkck]

I think this is going to vary a lot between family heads. I think we will see the following scenarios across various family heads:

- God complex. They just buy into their hype and believe themselves gods and want to be treated as such. Zahard for instance.
- Don't want the trifles to know them. Quite a few family heads are unactive and largely appear to not care about running their families or towe residents. I wouldn't be surprised if, say, hana just liked talking walks and having coffee without the hassle of the trifles shitting their pants at the sight of her getting 2 sugars rather than 3 at her favorite coffee shop or something (entirely hypotetical I just made up for context).

 

[requiem46]

I think all 10 great warriors are mentally unstable. Some are probably better, some are worse, but I doubt any of them are 100% sane. Some eccentric behaviours (like not wanting their faces to be known) are probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Urek is a different case: he's probably quite infamous because irregulars are not really liked since Phanta stormed the tower, so maybe no one dares go looking for him to take his picture or give information about what is he up to

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

If Gustang is correct, their brains should have been the most swiss-cheesed by now even though their bodies continue to strengthen. I'd agree tens of thousands of years of dawdling about the enclosed Tower has probably taken its toll.

Combine that with their god-status-complex and that's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Cinera]

If Gustang is correct, their brains should have been the most swiss-cheesed by now even though their bodies continue to strengthen. I'd agree tens of thousands of years of dawdling about the enclosed Tower has probably taken its toll.

You mean Jinsung.

And he was mostly talking about how the old guard became complacent and overly comfortable with the status quo. They are unwilling to undergo even the slightest of changes.

But it's unknown if this applies to the Gods of the Tower or if it's just to the old High Rankers.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 8, 2022 ---

Combine that with their god-status-complex and that's a recipe for disaster.

Zahard is the only one that has called himself a god. None of the others have regarded themselves as such.

But even Zahard's proclamation of godhood is of a different nature. Zahard is saying that he began to see all causes and effects from the same height as God and so learned to play around with Fate. That's specifically about his ability to see causality and manipulate Fate.


They just see the other inhabitants of the Tower as bugs and insignificant creatures.

Rather than Gods vs mortals, Players vs NPCs seem like a more apt analogy. The NPCs chose to worship the Players as Gods.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

You mean Jinsung.

And he was mostly talking about how the old guard became complacent and overly comfortable with the status quo. They are unwilling to undergo even the slightest of changes.

Yes, of course, Jinsung. Obviously.

But, he was very clear and explicit. He said "sick" - he contrasted bodily sickness with mental sickness. The former (body) gets stronger while the later (mind) actually sees degradation. There's an inverse correlation in health.

His quote:

Do you know why there hasn't been a major war in this tower since the ancient wars? Old people hate change. This may seem very unstable to some generations, but to us, who are used to this situation, we're afraid of things changing. The same goes for me. Our bodies don't get sick or weaken as we age, they actually get stronger. But at some point, our minds get sick and become dull to everything, so we have an adverse reaction to even the smallest changes. We've become weathered by time.

Sure, he could be using 'sick' as a euphemism, but the contrasting it with literal bodily weakening and physical sickness just to say that doesn't happen, but it happens to the mind makes me think there might be more to it.

Consider it like going senile while your body never ages.

And senior dementia would lead you to not want to see changes, as he states.

I really do think he's referring to their minds becoming twisted - whether this is due to actual physical changes in the form of degradation or mental neuroticism from a body that never ages and long-life is really irrelevant as the point remains.

But it's unknown if this applies to the Gods of the Tower or if it's just to the old High Rankers.

I'm not sure the point you're making, particularly bc you refer to them (irregulars) as "gods" (more on that below) here, but there's no reason to think they are exempt. They too are also high-rankers, and old fogies in the tower all the same. He didn't distinguish between tower-born and irregulars, and I'm inclined to believe the OG13 are included as they are the biggest power-brokers that matter when it comes to the upheaval of war and change in the tower, which was the context of his speech.

Zahard is the only one that has called himself a god. None of the others have regarded themselves as such.

But even Zahard's proclamation of godhood is of a different nature. Zahard is saying that he began to see all causes and effects from the same height as God and so learned to play around with Fate. That's specifically about his ability to see causality and manipulate Fate.


They just see the other inhabitants of the Tower as bugs and insignificant creatures.

Rather than Gods vs mortals, Players vs NPCs seem like a more apt analogy. The NPCs chose to worship the Players as Gods.

...?

I really don't follow. Just a few lines back you're referring to 'Gods of the Tower' - presumably about the irregulars and FHs. Gods.

Then, you distinguish Zahard from the other FHs and say 'god' is a misnomer essentially. (except for Zahard as he has self-referenced himself as one). OK, not gods. Well, a single god and some others that aren't quite gods.

Then, you say there's a better analogy: NPCs and Players. OK, not any are gods after all, but 'players' instead.

THEN, you equate the Players to Gods, saying that's how the NPCs view them. Which means they are viewed as gods all along, as you agree. Back to them all being gods again.

...OK?

Seems like a distinction without a difference. None of the semantics has anything to do with whether or not they have god-complexes.

You don't have to call yourself a 'god' to have a god-complex. That's not the qualification. It's a state of mind. An attitude towards others.

IRL, doctors are often associated with having god-complexes. Or CEOs. Politicians and dictators. None think they are ACTUAL gods, nor self-reference as one. Presumably - I haven't done a formal poll. But you get the idea.

This is exactly how we see Rei treating his subjects. Or trifles. Or pets. Or slaves. Or NPCs even. Whatever he or you want to call them matters very little.

And how they view him in return.

The point is he plays with them like only a god could - choosing their fates and life and death. AKA, a god-complex. Like Zahard, like Dionysus, sorry, Eduan. Like Gustang and his 'bugs'. Like Arie and his disposable children. Like Hendo consuming his progeny's life-essence. Etc. All of them for all we know. I'm sure Yurin is seen as a god of sorts by her inner court, if not just because of her status.

But, again, the god in 'god complexes' (as a personality trait) doesn't reference literal, metaphysical god-powers. That's not what the term is about. Although the line is a bit blurred when it comes to how ancient irregulars seem compared to the average Joe in the Tower.

 

[kkck]

Zahard is the only one that has called himself a god. None of the others have regarded themselves as such.

But even Zahard's proclamation of godhood is of a different nature. Zahard is saying that he began to see all causes and effects from the same height as God and so learned to play around with Fate. That's specifically about his ability to see causality and manipulate Fate.


They just see the other inhabitants of the Tower as bugs and insignificant creatures.

Rather than Gods vs mortals, Players vs NPCs seem like a more apt analogy. The NPCs chose to worship the Players as Gods.

When gustang was mentioned by that family member of his when season 2 ended he was said by said family member to have omniscient and omnipotent intellect. And that insignificant creatures were not worthy of saying gustang's name. Traumerei has people killed for looking at him. It's true that in story they haven't called themselves gods but this isn't that far from it either. I suppose there will be differences between family heads but it seems pretty probable that they are all as gods within their families.

 

[akio18]

I see there's a lot of talk of gods and subjects lately, which has made me think. Now I won't try to pick sides, I'm just expressing an opinion. With regards to their age and mental health, I think Batman put it bluntly : '' You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain''. Now we tend to associate mental ilness with acts that are considered evil. Actually, people who do have mental ilnesses can't control themselves, that why in a murder case for example the court first tries to establish if the defendent was or not insane at the time of the crime. Here's the definition: ''Generally speaking, criminal insanity is understood as a mental defect or disease that makes it impossible for a defendant to understand their actions, or to understand that their actions are wrong. A defendant found to be criminally insane can assert an insanity defense. When asserting an insanity defense, the defendant essentially admits to having committed the wrongful act, but claims that they are not culpable because of their mental defect. '' - Cornell Law School website.
The 10GW, at the least the ones that we know of have issues, I won't go into them. The only one that seems to have a positive trait is Ari Han bcz he is a pacifist, but we don't know if for example he would sacrifice all of FUG for the sake of the status quo. Rather than seeing them as demented I would see them as incorigible, unable to change for the good, or the least what we understand as being moral. I think this is what Jinsung is trying to say. That's why Bam for the residents of the tower is a fascinating figure. You're better off being an egoist while climbing the tower, always on the look out for someone who wants to strike a knife behind your back then being considered and kind. And I think thats why Bam is changing. In the tower kindness is not needed to climp the floors. There aren't test that rewarded it but there are test where you have to metaphorically climb over bodies in order to pass.
God complex. I've actually remembered that before ww2 the Japanese emperor was seen as a living god. If you've seen the last samurai, you get the idea. In real life, Japanese people started their mornings with a bow towards the imperial palace and a prayer. (there's footage on youtube but I don't know which documentary). Also, in keeping with tradition, the emperor was rarely seen by his subjects and rarely spoke if at all in public gatherings. I remember the line from the movie which is historical accurate( the line, not the hollywood spin ) that the voice of the emperor is too pure to be heard by mortals. Maybe not seeing the face of the 10 GW became a custom similar to that and anyone who dared otherwise was punished. Anyway, this is a long post. I'll end it here.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2022 ---

When gustang was mentioned by that family member of his when season 2 ended he was said by said family member to have omniscient and omnipotent intellect. And that insignificant creatures were not worthy of saying gustang's name. Traumerei has people killed for looking at him. It's true that in story they haven't called themselves gods but this isn't that far from it either. I suppose there will be differences between family heads but it seems pretty probable that they are all as gods within their families.

Without trying to upset you, if your profile pic says Kami no Gotoshi, I think you should be the expert on the matter : : )))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[requiem46]

When gustang was mentioned by that family member of his when season 2 ended he was said by said family member to have omniscient and omnipotent intellect. And that insignificant creatures were not worthy of saying gustang's name. Traumerei has people killed for looking at him. It's true that in story they haven't called themselves gods but this isn't that far from it either. I suppose there will be differences between family heads but it seems pretty probable that they are all as gods within their families.

I agree that people are treating the FH as gods, but the FH themselves are human who are simply much stronger than all the people around them. But they can't create things from nothing, they probably don't know about everything happening in the tower, and most obviously they can't even escape the tower (whether they want to or not). To me, they are more similar to Superman arriving into planet Earth than to a potential Zeus over ancient Greece.

The FHs considering themselves to be gods or everything else around them to be insects means to me that they have gone quite mental. Megalomaniacs, basically. It'll be hilarious when they are killed, and I think most if not all of them will be dead by the end of the story

 

[kkck]

I agree that people are treating the FH as gods, but the FH themselves are human who are simply much stronger than all the people around them. But they can't create things from nothing, they probably don't know about everything happening in the tower, and most obviously they can't even escape the tower (whether they want to or not). To me, they are more similar to Superman arriving into planet Earth than to a potential Zeus over ancient Greece.

The FHs considering themselves to be gods or everything else around them to be insects means to me that they have gone quite mental. Megalomaniacs, basically. It'll be hilarious when they are killed, and I think most if not all of them will be dead by the end of the story

Depends on what you define as creating from nothing? Pretty sure most family heads can just do whatever with shinsoo. Zahard is apparently seeking to manipulate fate and if he has any degree of success then he could be quite aware of happenings in the tower. He was able to trick khel hellam into sending yama to the wall without interfering directly...

As for them being mental.. maybe? but maybe not? To me its not unconscionable that they might have a point regarding their inherent superiority and value over others. Urek didn't really fight back against gustang on this one, he just pointed he didn't like hanging out with the family heads over that. Urek's reaction to me felt more like "You sort of have a point but you don't have to be a dick about it" than "I find your blatant racism and elitism to be unfathomably evil". I don't think we should outright dismiss the family heads having more inherent value and worth than tower residents.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I don't think the semantics over 'gods' or 'not gods' has any meaning here.

Superman was brought up. He's literally seen as a god in comparison to normal humans. His powers have been described as god-like.

Cults to his near-deity have sprung up in the comics:

He's always been billed as the messiah-like archetype. Only son from the heavens descends and selflessly acts for the lowly people of earth. He's raised by parents that aren't his biologically, who have nothing to do with his powers that are other-worldly. Even his Kryptonian name rings similar to ancient Hebrew sounding names.

Much has been written about these similarities and more. Christ figures are gods descended to earth.

So, if you're going to pick another analogy, at least consider if that truly doesn't actually double-down on the god discussion.



For all intents and purposes, irregulars in the tower (well, the ancient ones at least - the FHs) are god-like relative to the average tower-born rando. They are literally impervious, immortal, and can end your life with less than a blink for 99.9999% of the tower. That's... a god. It's all relative.

Yes, I am mere flesh but I'm a god figure to ants in an ant-farm. That's what FH's are to the vast majority, if not all, of the tower-born. Their fates and lives and even lifestyle and livelihoods can be decided for them, and no one would even consider attempting to take one down. (not to get into the regulars versus irregular debate - like Luslec et al - those are such a small subset of trillions of lives that they don't matter for the sake of this discussion)

They don't have to be actual gods of creation to be god-like. They don't even have to be axes such as Phanta.

And they don't have to self-identify as gods to act as such, and have such a god-complex.

Think about this: even mere mortals in real life can't handle extreme power.

ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY

Or so the maxim goes. Even a normal human lifespan measured in mere decades can be enough, even a small fraction of that lifespan, to have power acquired on earth go to their heads. We're talking presidents and CEOs of finance and industry. Ultra-billionaires and dictators of banana republics. We're not even talking about what is comparable to the emperor of the entire world, as a FH effectively is on just one floor, if not other floors they visit.

Now, if a human gets that level of authority and goes mad with power, imagine how crazed and depraved they would be over tens of thousands of years holding that position. Imagine a Nero for 20000k years on the throne. Or Genghis Khan for that amount of time. With nothing to challenge them, nowhere greater to go, no one as a peer, never aging, never striving... nothing to do. You've done it all, probably many times over.

OFC Rei is just fucking with people at this point. He (and the other FHs) are BORED.

 

[requiem46]

I chose the Superman comparisson because he's super strong comparatively since he's from outside this world. People in Earth are way weaker than the people in Krypton, so Superman has abilities that earthlings can only dream of, and the 10GW came from outside the tower and therefore weren't bound by the Tower's rules that bind regulars. Would they have been any big outside the tower, or did they "get lucky" that they ended up in a place where the inhabitants were weaker?

We know that potentially dangerous inhabitants, such as the Ancient ones, were hunted into quasi-extinction. We also know the FH claim the regulars are insects and the average FH seems to be generally bored with everything. But at the same time, it's clear that at least Zahard is freaking out at Bam being in the tower and wants him dead.

What kind of "god" would be freaking out at a kid irregular showing up? Is this fear/anxiety/whatever over Bam's presence reminding Zahard that he's actually not a god when they had bought into the idea of being gods over the millenia of worship? Is that causing a big meltdown? I think so

 

[kkck]

I don't think the semantics over 'gods' or 'not gods' has any meaning here.

Superman was brought up. He's literally seen as a god in comparison to normal humans. His powers have been described as god-like.

Cults to his near-deity have sprung up in the comics:

He's always been billed as the messiah-like archetype. Only son from the heavens descends and selflessly acts for the lowly people of earth. He's raised by parents that aren't his biologically, who have nothing to do with his powers that are other-worldly. Even his Kryptonian name rings similar to ancient Hebrew sounding names.

Much has been written about these similarities and more. Christ figures are gods descended to earth.

So, if you're going to pick another analogy, at least consider if that truly doesn't actually double-down on the god discussion.



For all intents and purposes, irregulars in the tower (well, the ancient ones at least - the FHs) are god-like relative to the average tower-born rando. They are literally impervious, immortal, and can end your life with less than a blink for 99.9999% of the tower. That's... a god. It's all relative.

Yes, I am mere flesh but I'm a god figure to ants in an ant-farm. That's what FH's are to the vast majority, if not all, of the tower-born. Their fates and lives and even lifestyle and livelihoods can be decided for them, and no one would even consider attempting to take one down. (not to get into the regulars versus irregular debate - like Luslec et al - those are such a small subset of trillions of lives that they don't matter for the sake of this discussion)

They don't have to be actual gods of creation to be god-like. They don't even have to be axes such as Phanta.

And they don't have to self-identify as gods to act as such, and have such a god-complex.

Think about this: even mere mortals in real life can't handle extreme power.

ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY

Or so the maxim goes. Even a normal human lifespan measured in mere decades can be enough, even a small fraction of that lifespan, to have power acquired on earth go to their heads. We're talking presidents and CEOs of finance and industry. Ultra-billionaires and dictators of banana republics. We're not even talking about what is comparable to the emperor of the entire world, as a FH effectively is on just one floor, if not other floors they visit.

Now, if a human gets that level of authority and goes mad with power, imagine how crazed and depraved they would be over tens of thousands of years holding that position. Imagine a Nero for 20000k years on the throne. Or Genghis Khan for that amount of time. With nothing to challenge them, nowhere greater to go, no one as a peer, never aging, never striving... nothing to do. You've done it all, probably many times over.

OFC Rei is just fucking with people at this point. He (and the other FHs) are BORED.

More than whether they actually are gods or not (even though god is a pretty.... devaluated term in tog) the question is whether there is a difference in the inherent worth of irregulars and tower residents. Which is the difference between tower residents being living creatures of equal worth to every else and the family heads are just lunatics or are tower residents just NPCs in a simulation. I feel like tower residents being actual NPCs would devaluate the overall story way too much though. Writing this made me think of the souls at the hidden floor... Which gustang referred to as tiny while he could barely contain his laughter at urek.

Looking back, gustang has referred to people in 3 ways so far.

Tower residents: Bugs, insects.
Rachel: Vermin.
Bam, urek: Equals.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I chose the Superman comparisson because he's super strong comparatively since he's from outside this world. People in Earth are way weaker than the people in Krypton, so Superman has abilities that earthlings can only dream of, and the 10GW came from outside the tower and therefore weren't bound by the Tower's rules that bind regulars. Would they have been any big outside the tower, or did they "get lucky" that they ended up in a place where the inhabitants were weaker?

Yes, that is true. Superman IS an apt comparison.

I did address that though. They are both - supes and the FHs - relative gods to the peons in the tower. Still.

Superman obviously being a lot more generous and selfless with his powers. The FHs - not so much.

We know that potentially dangerous inhabitants, such as the Ancient ones, were hunted into quasi-extinction. We also know the FH claim the regulars are insects and the average FH seems to be generally bored with everything. But at the same time, it's clear that at least Zahard is freaking out at Bam being in the tower and wants him dead.

What kind of "god" would be freaking out at a kid irregular showing up? Is this fear/anxiety/whatever over Bam's presence reminding Zahard that he's actually not a god when they had bought into the idea of being gods over the millenia of worship? Is that causing a big meltdown? I think so

I think this is quite clear. Baam is a baby 'god' as it were. He has the potential for deicide. Zahard and his FH companions are aware of this.

Same as Superman might be concerned of a baby Doomsday.

It doesn't somehow make them not gods to the average tower folk just because Baam is on the scene. Tower inhabitants still have the same relationship to the FHs Baam or no Baam.



The problem I'm seeing is people are getting hung up on the term god. 'God' has been used in a creator, formal sense, but also loosely in a generic sense, particularly when it comes to treatment of others as frivolous. Think of the term 'playing god' - it's not literal. And there are shades in between. For instance, a god of the Olympic pantheon could not be harmed by a mere mortal (FHs to tower born), yet they could harm or even kill each other (and their Titan parents). Or, if you insist on the superman analogy, another Kryptonian (even a baby Kryptonian could pose a future threat, a la Baam) would be a threat to superman, but not a farmer with a shotgun, and so on. Both are still gods in comparison to the salt of the earth.

Now, a literal God (big 'g') of course could never be harmed or destroyed, and has absolute control over creation and destruction, down to the atomic scale, as well as being omniscient and omnipotent. That's not what is being discussed here.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2022 ---

More than whether they actually are gods or not (even though god is a pretty.... devaluated term in tog) the question is whether there is a difference in the inherent worth of irregulars and tower residents. Which is the difference between tower residents being living creatures of equal worth to every else and the family heads are just lunatics or are tower residents just NPCs in a simulation. I feel like tower residents being actual NPCs would devaluate the overall story way too much though. Writing this made me think of the souls at the hidden floor... Which gustang referred to as tiny while he could barely contain his laughter at urek.

Looking back, gustang has referred to people in 3 ways so far.

Tower residents: Bugs, insects.
Rachel: Vermin.
Bam, urek: Equals.

I think that's a separate, moral argument though. I'm happy to weigh in, but that's not what I referenced at the top of the thread.

Whether the tower regs are NPCs or actual beings of worth and concern is immaterial to how they fare against the FHs. And how they'd view them. Just some rando rice-farmer in the tower is going to be just as far from a FH as a human would Superman or Ares or Thor. There's a reason the pantheon keeps getting brought up in reference to the FHs anyways.

Superman could act the same as Zahard, and humans would bend a knee all the same, because they'd have no other choice. He just so happens to view people as creatures of value, and protects their lives instead of uses them. But, they aren't Kryptonia - his people (irregulars). They can't touch him in any way or depose him. Kryptonite aside, but you get the idea. Kryptonite is like the Thorn in TOG.