Discussion Could there be a betrayal down the road?

[Zmsp]

Like the title suggests: could there be a betrayal amongst the Straw Hats later down the line?

This is a very common and recurrent theme in the manga, with particular emphasis in the post-timeskip.
It's been happening nearly every arc, and we've been hinted that it happened in the past as well. This happens on both sides of the spectrum: good guys and bad guys.

Otohime was betrayed by a small part of her own people, consumed by blind hatred.
Law was fundamentally a bad guy, and got converted by Rosinante, betraying Doflamingo.
Bege betrays Big Mom, and to some degree. Pudding does so as well.

One might argue that these were betrayals caused by their misdeeds, and Otohime was a different context altogether. Fair enough.

But recently we've had Kanjuro, and even Orochi.
They were both seduced by power/revenge because of a deeply rooted story between them and the good guys. They were not the ones to start it either, a third party convinces them that it's the right thing to do.

We even have Zuneisha to speculate about. We know it was Joyboys nakama, and it committed a crime that got it sentenced to roam the seas.


We've been warned time and time again: piracy and betrayal go hand in hand.
So, that's what this thread's all about: Will it happen? Are the strawhats the exception? Who'd be more likely? Have we had any subtle hints or foreshadowing that went unnoticed at first glance?

 

[Uriel]

No

 

[Nie Li]

This would go against everything the series has represented for over two decades.

 

[Zmsp]

Interesting, now I kinda hope it actually happens. The shock value would be tremendous.

Well, I should mention that I'm not talking about a full blown, long-con type of betrayal. I'm just entertaining the possibility, considering it's a common development. The StrawHats, despite looking up to Luffy, are all flawed in their own way (well, they're human, for the most part?), and have their own dreams. It doesn't seem completely unreasonable for them to falter, if given proper context.

This would go against everything the series has represented for over two decades.

What's that even supposed to mean? That looks like the whole "freedom vs destiny" argument.
If there's a common theme going around, is that betrayal is part of the world of One Piece. The heroes don't have to be exempt from it just because the demographic is young male teens. Everything's just a mechanism to draw out feelings from the reader, and drama is part of it. If well executed, it elevates the story, not the other way around. The story wouldn't turn into a seinen if something like that happened.

Again, I'm not really advocating for it (now I kinda am, a little bit), but it wouldn't be that surprising at this point.

 

[thedude]

No, they did the "betrayal" a few times already. Robin, Usopp (kind of), and Sanji. But each time there was a reason, and they rejoined the crew. There isn't actually going to be a heel turn to borrow a wrestling phrase. These people are all in on being in Luffy's crew, and it wouldn't make sense story wise.

 

[Uriel]

Interesting, now I kinda hope it actually happens. The shock value would be tremendous.

Wait, so you prefer the bragging rights and shock value over coherence and inner consistency?

For Oda's sake, Nami almost died just for SAYING that his captain will be the king of pirates.

 

[Zmsp]

Wait, so you prefer the bragging rights and shock value over coherence and inner consistency?

For Oda's sake, Nami almost died just for SAYING that his captain will be the king of pirates.

I'm not going for bragging rights, I'm going for discussions that might anticipate shocking twists, and that requires being a bit open minded.

Yes, I'm aware the StrawHats symbolize friendship and loyalty, I'm reading the same story. What does one thing have to do with the other? Why would a development like that break coherence? You can't betray if there was no trust in the first place, and that's why it would be a shock... Kanjuro was going to boil to death for the sake of his role. I'm not saying that's indication of anything, I'm just saying that the author has enough freedom to justify or give any sort of context for it to happen, if he decides to go that way. Also, like I said, I'm not saying there's a long con going on, I'm highlighting the fact that betrayal amongst the good guys has been a thing lately, and it might even trace back to a couple of centuries in the past, with possible implications on how things turned out. Being tempted by something and being inherently evil is not the same thing, and history kinda repeating itself is the big theme around One Piece.

In fact, I didn't start this thread because I'm advocating for it.. I've just re-read a couple of chapters and I don't think it's coincidental that Oda has been focusing on betrayal amongst the good guys lately. Will that translate to a StrawHat betraying the group? Not necessarily, but I think it's a point worth discussing.

If you'd have given me something like: "well, I see the strawhats being the group and breaks that cycle/pattern, because their flaws have been tested before and they still came through for their captain". Fair enough, I agree. That doesn't really exclude being open to other possibilities. If you're going for "no, because that breaks inner consistency", I honestly find that reasoning fundamentally flawed and a very narrow-minded way of looking at things, so while I appreciate the input, I don't even know what to say.

No, they did the "betrayal" a few times already. Robin, Usopp (kind of), and Sanji. But each time there was a reason, and they rejoined the crew.

That's the complete opposite to what I'm saying. Robin & Sanji sacrificed themselves for the sake of the crew, because their origins caught up to them and put the crew (and the Baratie) at risk. If anything, they put others ahead of themselves in both arcs.

 

[catagon87]

Interesting, now I kinda hope it actually happens. The shock value would be tremendous.

Well, I should mention that I'm not talking about a full blown, long-con type of betrayal. I'm just entertaining the possibility, considering it's a common development. The StrawHats, despite looking up to Luffy, are all flawed in their own way (well, they're human, for the most part?), and have their own dreams. It doesn't seem completely unreasonable for them to falter, if given proper context.



What's that even supposed to mean? That looks like the whole "freedom vs destiny" argument.
If there's a common theme going around, is that betrayal is part of the world of One Piece. The heroes don't have to be exempt from it just because the demographic is young male teens. Everything's just a mechanism to draw out feelings from the reader, and drama is part of it. If well executed, it elevates the story, not the other way around. The story wouldn't turn into a seinen if something like that happened.

Again, I'm not really advocating for it (now I kinda am, a little bit), but it wouldn't be that surprising at this point.

Going to try and be as respectful as possible here and just say this is probably the least likely think to happen in the manga. Most of your examples don't make sense. Big Mom is an idiot for even allowing Bege in her crew. The dude's whole history literally revolves around killing bosses of other crews. I don't even think Bege wants to be Pirate King. I think he just likes taking out organization figure-heads. Otohime was betrayed and assassinated by one of the most gigantic assholes in OP history, Hody Jones. Pudding didn't really betray Big Mom. She realized that her whole life had been crafted by Big Mom, and that she only matters as a tool Big Mom can use, and not as an actual family member, so when she saw Sanji having a good heart and not criticizing her appearance she lost it. Kanjuro never betrayed Orochi. Even in the the most recent chapters Kanjuro was simply fulfilling what Orochi told him to do. Orochi chose to align with an evil pirate and got betrayed.

Zoro took all of Luffy's pain on Thriller Bark, and Sanji offered to do the same.
Nami had Ulti headbutting her to death, and Kaido in dragon form right in front of her and still remains loyal to Luffy (I think the only time she ever did anything different was with Enel, not counting her Arlong situation which you could argue she wasn't a full-fledged member yet).
Robin literally tried to let the WG kill her to prevent the crew's demise.
Jinbei opted to go to level 6 of Impel Down over fighting against Whitebeard and defending Ace's execution. Loyalty runs deep with him with respect to Fishman Island and Luffy / Whitebeard / Ace.
Chopper.. Yeah no. Other than Kureha and Dr. Hiriluk, Luffy was the first person to accept him.
Brook went face to face with fucking Big Mom to fulfill Luffy's wishes by stealing her Road Poneglyph. You really think someone who went toe-to-toe with a damned Yonko would betray Luffy?
Franky has some of the biggest balls in the crew. He, also, will not be pushed around. His dream is to build the ship that will travel the whole world. He's not going to abandon his dream. Also.. he freaking has balls of steal and post-timeskip is one of my favorite / most improved characters, IMO. From taking out Baby 5 and Buffalo with ease, to his fight with Senior Pink, to smashing his motorcycle into Big Mom's face..
Usopp is the sketchiest member, but still. He could have gone separate from them in Water 7 and avoided the whole Enies Lobby situation. I mean he didn't even have a bounty yet. He took that bat to the face, and one of the more dangerous jobs in Dressrosa.

Nobody is going to betray the Straw Hat Pirates. At this rate I don't think Law would even betray Luffy.

To your last point, it would be extremely surprising. IMO if you thought this would actually happen you'd have some evidence and reasoning beyond "Pirates and it hasn't happened yet." Just because Pirates are known for betrayal doesn't mean that a main character is going to betray the protagonist.

 

[Zmsp]

Going to try and be as respectful as possible here and just say this is probably the least likely think to happen in the manga. Most of your examples don't make sense. Big Mom is an idiot for even allowing Bege in her crew. The dude's whole history literally revolves around killing bosses of other crews. I don't even think Bege wants to be Pirate King. I think he just likes taking out organization figure-heads. Otohime was betrayed and assassinated by one of the most gigantic assholes in OP history, Hody Jones. Pudding didn't really betray Big Mom. She realized that her whole life had been crafted by Big Mom, and that she only matters as a tool Big Mom can use, and not as an actual family member, so when she saw Sanji having a good heart and not criticizing her appearance she lost it. Kanjuro never betrayed Orochi. Even in the the most recent chapters Kanjuro was simply fulfilling what Orochi told him to do. Orochi chose to align with an evil pirate and got betrayed.

I don't think my message got across. I did say "evil" characters had it coming, and that justified why they were "betrayed", but the point was that changing sides is something that's happened over and over. I understand that examples like Bege were probably poorly picked by me, because I'm talking about the StrawHats, which are the nuclear family of Luffy, rather than just underlings. Fair enough.

Law & Pudding on the other hand, make no sense to me, given your reasoning. They were mostly "evil" characters, although shaped that way by their tragic upbringing, but they were not far beyond reach, and having that good side nurtured by a certain figure, eventually "switched" their sides. Why is it so unfathomable that the opposite could happen, when a couple of StrawHats have already been shown to have very obvious quirks/flaws? I'm aware of all the collective sacrifices they've made for Luffy. I'm saying it only takes one moment, and one member, for a moment of weakness to have consequences.

The opposite for Orochi: in his flashback, was not inherently evil, he was tempted and had his evil side nurtured, and ended up turning into one of the most vile characters in the series so far. Kanjuro was just nuts, but he did betray the people he deemed his closest friends, and Kinemon ended up striking him down in tears.

Nobody is going to betray the Straw Hat Pirates.

To your last point, it would be extremely surprising. IMO if you thought this would actually happen you'd have some evidence and reasoning beyond "Pirates and it hasn't happened yet." Just because Pirates are known for betrayal doesn't mean that a main character is going to betray the protagonist.

Well, this is actually a hard point to tackle, but I'll do my best to be concise.

First, I understand that the burden of proof lies with the one trying to get a point across. The thing is, I'm not making a prediction, I'm trying to get people to think and discuss this scenario. I did not expect people to be so adamantly negative towards it. I doubt people who just read the story and completely guide themselves by narrative could've figured that Ace would die back at Marineford. Still, if you start to grasp the overall architecture of the story and some of the references and symbolisms for Ace, it was a very reasonable prediction. That's why I made a discussion thread for it, rather than throwing out the idea in a chapter related thread.

With that being said, I'll elaborate on my view a little more: I'm a firm believer that Oda writes One Piece in a certain way: the story is written within the story. Most arcs are miniature depictions of what happened in the past/what might happen in the future, and most important characters are methaphors for others. That's why you'll see some characters sharing certain symbols in their wardrobe, and a similar structure between pre-timeskip/post-timeskip arcs. It's not even a belief at this point, it's almost unequivocal, and I'm sure a lot of youtubers/theorists have made a much better job at explaining it than I ever could, but they also come with the negative of just wanting viewership and undermining their own credibility with random stuff. My point is that it's just unbearably hard to actually prove this, because you have to go arc by arc, and only after several correlations does it stop being tinfoily and becomes an obvious method that Oda utilizes, and second of all, it's not something Oda would explicitly say he does. Even then, it's super hard to guess how he's going to execute stuff, because he constantly flips the good and the bad guys, cross-references stuff, etc. I know you probably don't share this sentiment, considering you dismissed the idea of Big Mom metaphorically representing someone else in the chapter discussion thread, when she's got so many suspicious elements to her, but I know some people do tend to agree with this view on the story, and they might come up with something interesting when given this idea to think about.

With that being said, we've had a few instances where the good guy gets betrayed from within his own ranks in very important moments that defined history: Whitebeard/Squardo (who actually shares the spider motif), Oden/Kanjuro, and there's even Zuneisha, who was a nakama to Joyboy himself, and was sentenced for a crime it committed. (I'm not saying we know what it was, I'm saying THERE'S ROOM for this to further sustain that argument). If people entertained the idea that history repeats itself quite frequently in the world of One Piece, the idea isn't that shocking or surprising. I'm not saying it's going to happen and that it's likely, but I find it worth discussing.

 

[Core D. Roy]

I can imagine a fakeout betrayal- lookin' at you, Law. He might put on a big public show of selling someone important out to the marines as part of some 4D chess maneuver with SWORD. Cue furious outrage by Luffy and the rest before it's quickly revealed everything is according to keikaku.

 

[slavkovski]

What constitute a "betrayal"?
What if Law.. Due to his time with the SH pirates, learned the poneglyph with Robin, know every poneglyph that the SH crew have including what written on it due to his time with Robin and the SH decided after the last poneglyph they found he jump to his submarine go straight to laugh tell first without the SH knowing thus give him a head start are considered as a betrayal?
If that considered as a betrayal the answer to this thread is i guess.. Yes

But imo if that happen i dont consider it to be one.. Because they are all pirates.. And he isn't a SH..

 

[McNuss]

Caribou, it's Caribou.

The guy has basically Chekov's Gun written on his forehead. He's also a Judas, visually.

But he is not a popular character so of course no one will talk about him. One of the many reasons the community is stuck is that the basis of theories as well as their popular success, are determined by the popularity of the characters included.

That's why there is bazillion of Law theories, that's why there is stupid stuff like ZKK or Meadows is Kaido.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Caribou, it's Caribou.

The guy has basically Chekov's Gun written on his forehead. He's also a Judas, visually.

But he is not a popular character so of course no one will talk about him. One of the many reasons the community is stuck is that the basis of theories as well as their popular success, are determined by the popularity of the characters included.

That's why there is bazillion of Law theories, that's why there is stupid stuff like ZKK or Meadows is Kaido.

Lol he can't be a "traitor" if he was never an ally to begin with. That's like saying "that Caesar fellow doesn't seem to be on the up-and-up, imo!"

You're right about the idiocy that is the ZKK theory, but suspicions about Law have been in the text for forever now. My money's on a fakeout betrayal of some sort.

 

[Zmsp]

Caribou, it's Caribou.

I don't doubt that in the slightest, but he'd not be an unexpected development. Being slimy is his big theme.
If history's bound to repeat itself, even if Luffy ends up breaking the cycle, i'd expect someone closer, but I guess Oda could go for someone more peripheral, like a fleet member, perhaps he might make Caribou appear closer/more loyal in the next few developments, but it'd never be a real surprise.

that's why there is stupid stuff like ZKK

I'm gonna be honest, I used to think this idea was absurd, but not anymore. It's hard... I'm conflicted.

Luffy should be the one to liberate Wano from Kaido, and he needs a somewhat clean victory, that's for sure, but who's Zoros dragon to slay? King had some dragon themed stuff, but he's much more of a Garuda than a Dragon.. he's an enemy of snakes. Pica and his giant form was probably a metaphor for the dragon slaying, but it doesn't feel enough. While I believe there's some symbolism with Luffy and a tiger, that's fundamentally Zoro's animal.

Zoro and his direction is really weird this arc, at least for me. I think there's been some previous hints that could almost foreshadow he might die, but at the same time, him being knocked out so soon in the arc, the lack of closure in the whole Enma and its purpose thing, and the Tiger and the Dragon motifs make me question what's left for him in this arc, not to mention the fact that I don't think Oda would ever kill the second most popular character so soon. I think the people who started that theory did it out of pure fanboyism, but there are some loose ends that do make me wonder if it might actually be possible... perhaps later down the road (but that doesn't even go in line with what I think's gonna happen, with BB stealing Kaidos fruit). I don't know what to think of Zoro and his future, honestly.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Apr 16, 2022 ---

Actually, this made me think of an interesting idea for a theory/discussion thread:

Posting panels that seemingly look harmless, but might foreshadow stuff in the future, with proper reasoning/elaborating on them. Everyone's got at least one of those: some panel that caught his attention, but doesn't really fit into chapter discussion, or a proper theory.

 

[M3J]

No, and that'd go against what Oda's been trying to establish for Luffy: the ability to make allies from just about anyone. Him being betrayed by anyone, especially his own crew, would not only contradict that, but as mentioned above, would severely go against the theme of the manga.

 

[kkck]

i think law and kidd will soft betray luffy at the end of wano. they will steal a part of the loot, minions and leave.

 

[McNuss]

Lol he can't be a "traitor" if he was never an ally to begin with. That's like saying "that Caesar fellow doesn't seem to be on the up-and-up, imo!"

You're right about the idiocy that is the ZKK theory, but suspicions about Law have been in the text for forever now. My money's on a fakeout betrayal of some sort.

No, it's actually very different from Caesar Clown. Caribou had a redemption arc, the cover story where he gets confused for the Revolutionary Gabull, and has helped Luffy out twice, voluntarily!

First in Udon, but more importantly the second time where he saved the entire raid by providing Luffy with food.

Luffy should be at the point where forgets Caribou was a villain in the first place.

Caesar never had any redemption, he is evil incarnate through and through, the worst scum of the Planet, a mixture of Baphomet, the Joker and Dr. Mengele.

He only ever helped out because he was forced to, in fact he was even tortured to do nice things.

----

I don't know that seems to be entirely hyperbole around his popularity. When trying to figure out what happens, you have to ask yourself what purpose could this fullfil, is it necessary, and does it match with previous events and themes.

Law already manipulated the Strawhats into attacking Doflamingo, something he was prepared to die trying for. That already happened! Luffy not only saved his ass and completely discarded caring for being manipulated, he also kicked Doflamingo's ass and relieved Law from the severe trauma he's been in. We know Law is deeply grateful towards Luffy, he is a believer even though he's not the kind of guy to openly admit this all the time.

Yeah there could be some fake out betrayal plot or whatever. But that is like predicting random events. "What would be gained from it for the story?" is the question then. Readers would immediately dispel it anyways.

I don't know. Betrayal is a recurring element in this story, and one highlighted to be of great importance. Yet thinking about Law in this aspect, I don't think it furthers theorycraft.

i think law and kidd will soft betray luffy at the end of wano. they will steal a part of the loot, minions and leave.

But what about the Doflamingo plot and why would Law, who is the one who coined "the Strawhats leave nothing but miracles", not believe in this miracle of what the fuck is happening right now that will culminate in Luffy defeating Kaido 1v1 and saving all of their asses?

 

[Core D. Roy]

No, it's actually very different from Caesar Clown. Caribou had a redemption arc, the cover story where he gets confused for the Revolutionary Gabull, and has helped Luffy out twice, voluntarily!

First in Udon, but more importantly the second time where he saved the entire raid by providing Luffy with food.

Luffy should be at the point where forgets Caribou was a villain in the first place.

Caesar never had any redemption, he is evil incarnate through and through, the worst scum of the Planet, a mixture of Baphomet, the Joker and Dr. Mengele.

He only ever helped out because he was forced to, in fact he was even tortured to do nice things.

----

I don't know that seems to be entirely hyperbole around his popularity. When trying to figure out what happens, you have to ask yourself what purpose could this fullfil, is it necessary, and does it match with previous events and themes.

Law already manipulated the Strawhats into attacking Doflamingo, something he was prepared to die trying for. That already happened! Luffy not only saved his ass and completely discarded caring for being manipulated, he also kicked Doflamingo's ass and relieved Law from the severe trauma he's been in. We know Law is deeply grateful towards Luffy, he is a believer even though he's not the kind of guy to openly admit this all the time.

Yeah there could be some fake out betrayal plot or whatever. But that is like predicting random events. "What would be gained from it for the story?" is the question then. Readers would immediately dispel it anyways.

I don't know. Betrayal is a recurring element in this story, and one highlighted to be of great importance. Yet thinking about Law in this aspect, I don't think it furthers theorycraft.


But what about the Doflamingo plot and why would Law, who is the one who coined "the Strawhats leave nothing but miracles", not believe in this miracle of what the fuck is happening right now that will culminate in Luffy defeating Kaido 1v1 and saving all of their asses?

Loool this sounds a whole lot like the Caesar apologia back in the day. Granted, Caribou's evil hasn't been shown as ludicrously cartoonish as Caesar's, but "redemption arc" is a pretty big stretch to describe that cover story. Also helping out Luffy has been explicitly shown with his internal monologue as purely self-preservation. He knows he has no way out of Wano without Luffy winning, and has stated that fact to himself both in Udon and in the Kaidou fight intermission.

Also also, let's not besmirch the good name of Baphomet. Baphomet is a radical god and a personal favorite of mine.

 

[McNuss]

Loool this sounds a whole lot like the Caesar apologia back in the day. Granted, Caribou's evil hasn't been shown as ludicrously cartoonish as Caesar's, but "redemption arc" is a pretty big stretch to describe that cover story. Also helping out Luffy has been explicitly shown with his internal monologue as purely self-preservation. He knows he has no way out of Wano without Luffy winning, and has stated that fact to himself both in Udon and in the Kaidou fight intermission.

The thing, one is a Judas but the other one is Satan. There's a different aesthetic playing here. Yes readers know what Caribou is all about. In-world characters don't. To them, he isn't worse than a typical pirate. It's the readers that are in delusion about them and the main character not caring.

Caribou works as a false Nakama, Caesar could never.

 

[Zmsp]

Well, if it does end up happening, I'd say it would be a bland development if it doesn't come out of someone the reader wouldn't expect.

Cavendish being one of the few characters who probably depicts a part of Imu would make him a front runner, but he already had his "overcoming the jealousy" story, and kinda has Hakuba under control (seemingly). Besides, he's not very popular either, so he wouldn't really draw much emotion from the reader. Caribou even less... despite being a lot more likely.

Usopp having a cowardice moment that ends up having repercussions doesn't seem unreasonable, but him overcoming that cowardice is probably even more likely. Elbaf will probably end up being his place to shine, rather than blunder.