Discussion Gods and Devil Fruits

[Zmsp]

This time it isn't some convoluted theory, but rather something to think about that might spark some healthy discussion!

I'd like to start by pointing out how I believe Oda is trolling us a bit when it comes to the "Sun God" epithet. I will obviously change my mind if we get to see more fire/heat related stuff, but there are a couple of very suspicious elements to it: he's all white, his first depiction was under the moon, he gets burned rather easily despite being a "solar deity", and we've had lightning and body manipulation, but no fire based attacks. Even before the awakening, Luffy manipulated his size by inflating himself with air, and now he seems to have less boundaries when it comes to that. It's not just giantification, he grows body parts disproportionately. I know "freedom" was the reason mentioned, but there has to be limits to it, right? There are several possible explanations for this, but that's not the point here!

The appearance of actual Gods changed One Piece completely, whether we like it or not!

It was said that Logia fruits were the strongest of them all, and Logia pretty much means "communications of divine origin", but then we had mythological fruits introduced, and now we're at the point where we have mythological beings like dragons, often given divine properties, and quite literal Gods of the One Piece world. Natural elements, across several mythologies, are associated with Gods, and several Logias have had their value decreased with the appearance of beings capable of manipulating several of those elements at the same time. We've also had several gods and worships in the series, including the devil, the sun, wind, rain, earth, forest, snakes, and the list probably goes on. We've just confirmed one of those actually dwells in a Devil Fruit. Could we have some of the weirder Logias, like Smoke or Swamp, be explained by the existence of deities with similar properties? All of them with a certain amount of freedom within the realms they control?

This extends to certain Paramecia as well: Law's fruit, the Tontatta Princess fruit (Heal-Heal fruit), and perhaps even Big Mom's fruit could all be syncretized into "giving/manipulating life", and those are part of a spectrum of abilities usually associated with life-birthing gods (usually motherly figures). Even Blackbeard himself is accumulating fruits, and both of his powers so far are chthonic (related to the underworld).

What are your thoughts on this? Could there have been an age of Gods and Devil Fruits were related to their downfall?

 

[kkck]

If we are looking at the translations at play here:

Zoan: Animal system
Ancient zoan: Animal System Ancient Species
Mythical zoan: Animal System Mythical Beast Species

Mythical: occurring in or characteristic of myths or folk tales.

So mythical zoans are fruits with the ability to transform into creatures from myth basically. The context in this case would be that zoans are based on creatures that current exist, ancient zoans are based on creatures that roamed the earth millions of years ago and finally mythical zoans, being based on creatures from myths or legends, are based on essentially fictional creatures. Essentially mythical zoans are not evidence that gods walked the earth before, rather they allow users to transform into creatures that to the best of their knowledge are fictional.

Kaido is a dragon of course and a mythical fruit but odds are that even though dragons exists it is kaido's specific species that is mythical. Hence other dragons being pretty much dinosaurs.

 

[Zmsp]

If we are looking at the translations at play here:

Zoan: Animal system
Ancient zoan: Animal System Ancient Species
Mythical zoan: Animal System Mythical Beast Species

Mythical: occurring in or characteristic of myths or folk tales.

So mythical zoans are fruits with the ability to transform into creatures from myth basically. The context in this case would be that zoans are based on creatures that current exist, ancient zoans are based on creatures that roamed the earth millions of years ago and finally mythical zoans, being based on creatures from myths or legends, are based on essentially fictional creatures. Essentially mythical zoans are not evidence that gods walked the earth before, rather they allow users to transform into creatures that to the best of their knowledge are fictional.

Kaido is a dragon of course and a mythical fruit but odds are that even though dragons exists it is kaido's specific species that is mythical. Hence other dragons being pretty much dinosaurs.

Well, I'm just providing a hypothesis, but my goal was precisely to have other people share their views on the matter, so thank you!

I'm a bit confused by what you mean though!
Regardless of denomination, ancient and mythical creatures are real within the One Piece world, because they manifest through Devil Fruits, right?
Dinosaurs actually exist in the One Piece world. We saw them in Little Garden, and we have Ancient Zoans modelled after them.

Couldn't mythological creatures have existed within the One Piece world, and that's why we have Devil Fruits capable of manifesting them?

 

[kkck]

Well, I'm just providing a hypothesis, but my goal was precisely to have other people share their views on the matter, so thank you!

I'm a bit confused by what you mean though!
Regardless of denomination, ancient and mythical creatures are real within the One Piece world, because they manifest through Devil Fruits, right?
Dinosaurs actually exist in the One Piece world. We saw them in Little Garden, and we have Ancient Zoans modelled after them.

Couldn't mythological creatures have existed within the One Piece world, and that's why we have Devil Fruits capable of manifesting them?

My point is that the classification, being rational within OP-verse, provides the information regarding this. Dinosaurs are definitely real of course in OP of course. I had forgotten about little garden though. Perhaps it is isolated enough from the outside world that no one knows about dinosaurs there? Or the classification in this case simply points to animals that are, well, ancient. On the mythical front I don't think we have seen any instance of a mythical zoan fruit creature having a real and natural counterpart. Certainly unique animals for days but no natural born rubbermans, bhuddas, kyubis or phoenixes. Things are mythical or real. Something that's proven to be real is no longer mythical.

 

[Fox666]

Couldn't mythological creatures have existed within the One Piece world, and that's why we have Devil Fruits capable of manifesting them?

If that was the case, what would make them different from Ancient Zoans?

And going by this SBS, Mythical Zoans don't exist:

So in other words, they aren't related to the real devil fruits. That's why Gifters with the same animal exist and why ability users for “Logia”, “Paramecia”, or “Mythical Zoans” cannot appear, since lineage factors can only be extracted from already existing organisms. This is Caesar's limit as a scientist. However, the genius scientist Vegapunk might… or might not have been able to research beyond that boundary.

A "Nika" don't exist, in the same way as "Magma person" don't exist.

Also, Kaido's fruit is classified as a fish. This comes from a tale of a Koi fish that turned into a dragon. This means Kaido is not just a species of dragon, but the dragon from that story.

 

[Nie Li]

Also, Kaido's fruit is classified as a fish. This comes from a tale of a Koi fish that turned into a dragon. This means Kaido is not just a species of dragon, but the dragon from that story.

Disagree. Kaido's "an" azure dragon, "The dragon from that story" wasn't an azure dragon, just a dragon. The azure dragon is some sort of dragon god.

He's classified as a fish because the azure dragon is seen as an aquatic creature. There's nothing more to that.

 

[Zmsp]

If that was the case, what would make them different from Ancient Zoans?

And going by this SBS, Mythical Zoans don't exist:


A "Nika" don't exist, in the same way as "Magma person" don't exist.

Also, Kaido's fruit is classified as a fish. This comes from a tale of a Koi fish that turned into a dragon. This means Kaido is not just a species of dragon, but the dragon from that story.

He's classified as a fish because the azure dragon is seen as an aquatic creature. There's nothing more to that.

This is the complete SBS question and answer. I'm not sure if I explained myself poorly or not, but this SBS actually helps me explain what I mean.

Oda says Smiles are made from extracting the lineage factor of several animals, converting them to a liquid, having plants absorb that liquid, and they'll produce fruits. Ceasar could only come so far, and they're faulted. The big limitation is that you can only extract the lineage factor from something that exists.

THAT'S MY POINT!

Devil Fruits have existed, as far as we know, for hundreds of years (the Gorosei mention the Gomu Gomu fruit evading them for 800 years).
Let's say a Dragon existed that could control fire, thunder, wind. You can't extract lineage factors out of elements, but you could use that god's lineage factor and extract it, and create a Dragon Devil Fruit. You could sub-divide its lineage factor and create a Wind fruit, a Thunder Fruit, a Fire Fruit.

See my point? You shouldn't be able to create something out of nothing.

The names of the fruits have absolutely no interest in this matter. They're named by people and registered on a book that can clearly be manipulated by the World Government. I'm interested in the why and the how, not the nomenclature.

The missing link here is why there can only be one fruit at a time, and I'm assuming that's got to do with Souls. That could explain Zoans having minds of their own.

That's why I wanna hear people's opinions on this.

 

[kkck]

Disagree. Kaido's "an" azure dragon, "The dragon from that story" wasn't an azure dragon, just a dragon. The azure dragon is some sort of dragon god.

He's classified as a fish because the azure dragon is seen as an aquatic creature. There's nothing more to that.

That's not it. Kaido's fruit is the Uo Uo no mi which translates to fish fish fruit. Within that the fruit is model azure dragon. But the story behind it is key to why a dragon is considered a fish fish fruit. We all know the story by now. A carp attempts o climb a waterfall for 100 years or something to that effect and is eventually rewarded by becoming a dragon. It's the same thing the pokemon magicarp takes from.

--- Double Post Merged, May 11, 2022, Original Post Date: May 11, 2022 ---

This is the complete SBS question and answer. I'm not sure if I explained myself poorly or not, but this SBS actually helps me explain what I mean.

Oda says Smiles are made from extracting the lineage factor of several animals, converting them to a liquid, having plants absorb that liquid, and they'll produce fruits. Ceasar could only come so far, and they're faulted. The big limitation is that you can only extract the lineage factor from something that exists.

THAT'S MY POINT!

Devil Fruits have existed, as far as we know, for hundreds of years (the Gorosei mention the Gomu Gomu fruit evading them for 800 years).
Let's say a Dragon existed that could control fire, thunder, wind. You can't extract lineage factors out of elements, but you could use that god's lineage factor and extract it, and create a Dragon Devil Fruit. You could sub-divide its lineage factor and create a Wind fruit, a Thunder Fruit, a Fire Fruit.

See my point? You shouldn't be able to create something out of nothing.

The names of the fruits have absolutely no interest in this matter. They're named by people and registered on a book that can clearly be manipulated by the World Government. I'm interested in the why and the how, not the nomenclature.

The missing link here is why there can only be one fruit at a time, and I'm assuming that's got to do with Souls. That could explain Zoans having minds of their own.

That's why I wanna hear people's opinions on this.

So just to be clear, your point here is that because Caesar and vegapunk got the lineage factors they worked with from living sources then the original devil fruits, which include paramecia, zoans and logia, must also be like that?

 

[Zmsp]

So just to be clear, your point here is that because Caesar and vegapunk got the lineage factors they worked with from living sources then the original devil fruits, which include paramecia, zoans and logia, must also be like that?

I'm saying that's a possibility worth considering. That's why this is a discussion thread, and not a theory thread.
Artificial DFs and the original ones clearly have something different about them, but that doesn't mean they have nothing in common as well, right?

I think the original fruits have a scientific component to them, but there's something more to that process than just Lineage Factor, and that's where the concept of souls kicks in, two of them not being able to exist at the same time, one person not being able to have more than one, Zoans having minds of their own, and awakenings.

I put out a hypothesis, asked for feedback, and here we are.

 

[kkck]

I'm saying that's a possibility worth considering. That's why this is a discussion thread, and not a theory thread.
Artificial DFs and the original ones clearly have something different about them, but that doesn't mean they have nothing in common as well, right?

I think the original fruits have a scientific component to them, but there's something more to that process than just Lineage Factor, and that's where the concept of souls kicks in, two of them not being able to exist at the same time, one person not being able to have more than one, Zoans having minds of their own, and awakenings.

I put out a hypothesis, asked for feedback, and here we are.

It's extremely likely that the original devil fruits are man made as well. But... it's pretty damn improbable they got every lineage factor in every fruit from a living source. Where would smoke or lightning lineage factor come from? Or where would the lineage factor for a fruit that allows you to turn arbitrary stuff into any food come from? Heck, if this is the case then all devil fruits would be basically zoans to begin with. A more likely explanation: The extremely advanced civilization that came up with devil fruits probably had the capacity to edit or even fabricate lineage factors. Hence paramecia, logias and otherwise mythical creatures being a thing.

 

[Zmsp]

It's extremely likely that the original devil fruits are man made as well. But... it's pretty damn improbable they got every lineage factor in every fruit from a living source. Where would smoke or lightning lineage factor come from? Or where would the lineage factor for a fruit that allows you to turn arbitrary stuff into any food come from? Heck, if this is the case then all devil fruits would be basically zoans to begin with. A more likely explanation: The extremely advanced civilization that came up with devil fruits probably had the capacity to edit or even fabricate lineage factors. Hence paramecia, logias and otherwise mythical creatures being a thing.

Bro, sorry to ask, but did you read my original post? I mentioned most of that in the post ... I didn't mention Lineage Factor because I didn't wanna narrow it down to that, and wanted to keep it broad. The idea was that we have now been introduced to Gods dwelling in devil fruits, and that's the game changer.

Certain gods, across several mythologies, have certain "domains" under their control. They can create life, food, manipulate certain elements, etc. If you divide or deconstruct several of those features, that could explain a lot of Devil Fruits. If we're both assuming there's a lot of science behind the fruits, I'll give another example:

Imagine you have some sort of Earth God, who's capable of producing magma, earthquakes, and smoke, among other things. Out of this god, using lineage factor or some other method, you could create a Mythical Zoan: Earth God, Smoke and Magma Logias, and an Earthquake Paramecia. See where I'm going with this?

With that being said, I like the idea of fabricating Lineage Factors.
My initial thoughts on the matter were that Nika was fabricated, and that would explain why it has swirly eyebrows like the Vinsmoke children, and several weird features. The advanced civilization would be the ancient inhabitants of the moon, considering Dial technology is pretty much miniature Devil Fruits, trapping elements and concepts within a vessel. But I felt like something was missing.

Creating something out of nothing makes very little sense to me, and that wouldn't explain the cycle of rebirth from devil fruits, or how two can't exist at the same time. There has to be some concept like souls/soul fragments in the mix, and I find that easier to explain by actual gods existing in the past.

 

[kkck]

Bro, sorry to ask, but did you read my original post? I mentioned most of that in the post ... I didn't mention Lineage Factor because I didn't wanna narrow it down to that, and wanted to keep it broad. The idea was that we have now been introduced to Gods dwelling in devil fruits, and that's the game changer.

Certain gods, across several mythologies, have certain "domains" under their control. They can create life, food, manipulate certain elements, etc. If you divide or deconstruct several of those features, that could explain a lot of Devil Fruits. If we're both assuming there's a lot of science behind the fruits, I'll give another example:

Imagine you have some sort of Earth God, who's capable of producing magma, earthquakes, and smoke, among other things. Out of this god, using lineage factor or some other method, you could create a Mythical Zoan: Earth God, Smoke and Magma Logias, and an Earthquake Paramecia. See where I'm going with this?

With that being said, I like the idea of fabricating Lineage Factors.
My initial thoughts on the matter were that Nika was fabricated, and that would explain why it has swirly eyebrows like the Vinsmoke children, and several weird features. The advanced civilization would be the ancient inhabitants of the moon, considering Dial technology is pretty much miniature Devil Fruits, trapping elements and concepts within a vessel. But I felt like something was missing.

Creating something out of nothing makes very little sense to me, and that wouldn't explain the cycle of rebirth from devil fruits, or how two can't exist at the same time. There has to be some concept like souls/soul fragments in the mix, and I find that easier to explain by actual gods existing in the past.

I mean, I outright reject the premise that any mythical zoan has anything to do with any creature that ever existed naturally in OP. The mythical zoan classification, for the time being at least, tells us that these are not real creatures that existed in nature. They are mythical, meaning fictional. Maybe there is a fruit out there that is incorrectly classified as mythical but that's a separate issue. Maybe the fruits in OP were based on their fiction at the time. Maybe their fiction was based on devil fruit users.

The impression I have regarding devil fruits and how oda has portrayed them is that they are not supernatural in nature. Their overall behavior is consistent and replicable. And both vegapunk and ceasar have shown different degrees of success in replicating devil fruits. I don't know if the transfer from a dead host to a new fruit involves souls or not but we shouldn't assume this is magic or beyond what technology can achieve in OP.

 

[Nie Li]

That's not it. Kaido's fruit is the Uo Uo no mi which translates to fish fish fruit. Within that the fruit is model azure dragon. But the story behind it is key to why a dragon is considered a fish fish fruit. We all know the story by now. A carp attempts o climb a waterfall for 100 years or something to that effect and is eventually rewarded by becoming a dragon. It's the same thing the pokemon magicarp takes from.

Where exactly does it say that's the story behind it? It's not like that legend has been mentioned in-story or by Oda or by anyone, so why are you positive that's the reason the category is the fish fish fruit? We all know the story, but nothing indicates it has any relation with Kaido's devil fruit, not even in name.

In western culture, of course it sounds weird to see how a dragon is a "fish", and that's why you're associating it with the most well-known myth of the carp, but not in eastern culture. It's just an aquatic (fish-like) creature just like the phoenix is a bird-like creature.

--- Double Post Merged, May 11, 2022, Original Post Date: May 11, 2022 ---

The names of the fruits have absolutely no interest in this matter. They're named by people and registered on a book that can clearly be manipulated by the World Government. I'm interested in the why and the how, not the nomenclature.

Sorry for deviating the thread a bit there. You are indeed correct in that the names are just labels put on by the WG (or scientists or the populace for the most part) in-story.

Now, regarding the topic you created: I don't think there has been an age of the Gods in One Piece. After all, the lost history that's of interest to the story is only a void century not even a thousand years before the current adventure. In-story there's supposedly records of what happened before that century, right? After all, it's only the void century, like the dark ages.

Do we know if there were Devil Fruits before that? I don't think it has ever been mentioned, but it would be rather enlightening to know if they came to be during the void century or if they have always been around (in which case your age of the gods hypothesis could still come to be).

 

[Zmsp]

Now, regarding the topic you created: I don't think there has been an age of the Gods in One Piece. After all, the lost history that's of interest to the story is only a void century not even a thousand years before the current adventure. In-story there's supposedly records of what happened before that century, right? After all, it's only the void century, like the dark ages.

Do we know if there were Devil Fruits before that? I don't think it has ever been mentioned, but it would be rather enlightening to know if they came to be during the void century or if they have always been around (in which case your age of the gods hypothesis could still come to be).

Well, there's obviously a lot to iron out before I could call any of this a theory, but I think some of your questions have answers. Part of them are narrative based, and part of them are my own conjecture. We don't know when Devil Fruits came to be, but I am assuming, at least to a certain degree, that in case Gods actually existed, they were part of the reason for their downfall. At the very least, they had a part in the fall of the Ancient Kingdom.

When it comes to records that date back to the Void Century, I honestly don't think that can be interpreted interpreted as a positive or a negative right now, because we don't know what's written in them. The reason I say this is because they're perfectly comparable to our own history and mythology. The mythological stories we read about date back centuries, but they were actually written in stone or some other type of documents. That doesn't mean we believe Zeus existed, but Greeks did back then. The difference is that within the One Piece world, the deities they worshiped, like dragons/the sun god, have actual physical manifestations, and that's through Devil Fruits, something that not even the cast in One Piece understands yet. See my point? The World Government might not be able to erase the presence of this beings via Devil Fruits, so it's pointless to erase that history, but they can twist and hide how they came to be.

If we're talking about things that we actually know that date back before the Void Century, you're right, we have a few, and none of them are equated to Gods, but they're a bit suspicious. Zunisha is an elephant larger than any animal we've seen so far. We have three gigantic Trees, two of them (Adam and Eve) are larger than any other plant we've seen. Doesn't it feel like the scale was completely different back then?

I guess the term God is also subjective, and depends on the culture. I'm not talking about omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent beings, but rather the figures that exist in Devil Fruits having been real in the past, and they could wield the powers they grant. That includes Dragons and whatever God means in One Piece.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think there are parts of the idea that have merit, especially the ideas you mentioned in subsequent posts e.g. souls, dials, moon people etc.

What I personally think is a long shot/very unlikely is that every power came from a living thing that once existed. For one I don't think it provides an underlying explanation, since all it does is give us a bigger question to answer, why did gods exist in OP in a literal sense and what happened to them? Why did some of the gods have powers that are oddly connected to humans e.g. Washu Washu no mi.

Where I think some of the ideas (moon people, skypeans, dials, souls) connect together in a nice narrative way is:

1. We know there are living things on the moon now and that at one point there was an ancient advanced kingdom (Birka) located there
2. The ancient moon kingdom were technologically advanced (they built robots, and also were able to build flying machines that could traverse from the moon to earth)
3. Due to lack of resources the moon people left the moon and went to Earth leaving behind the following known descendants living in the Sky (Skypeans, Birkans, Shandians)
4. These sky people have unique advanced technologies e.g. Dials
   1. Personally I think Arc Maxim is one of the most impressive things we've seen in OP as far as technology. We have never seen the WG use any flying machines of that scale and power even though they have Vegapunk on their side. If you think about it OP does not have planes (at least none that I've noticed)
5. I don't think these ancient moon people stopped at the Sky. I think they came down to Blue Sea and mixed with humans forming a kingdom that we now call the Ancient Kingdom.
6. Using their advanced technology and the abundant resources on Earth they created something called DFs. My guess is they used technology like Dials, bioengineering, studying other races that existed in the Blue Seas, etc to create the first set of powers. What hasn't been answered is how they became unique fruits that reincarnate (I think we'll get an answer with Vegapunk being introduced since it seems genuinely replicated the Fish Fish fruit). I like the idea of Souls being bound to the first set of powers since the concept of reincarnating souls isn't new to readers.These souls would bring the powers with them. It's possible the OP world will introduce formal magic as part of this since that could explain how powers get binded to a soul and might explain the curse of not being able to swim (seems like a punishment/curse for breaking a supernatural law).
7. With their technology, culture, politics (I think they were more egalitarian/democratic) the Ancient Kingdom became prosperous and very influential globally in the Blue Seas. As their influence spread it became a threat to existing established order of governments/kingdoms around the world that ruled their people like dictatorships/monarchies/etc with lots of poverty, slavery, etc.
8. These existing governments/kingdoms probably went to war with the Ancient Kingdom and used their raw numbers/potential Ancient Kingdom ally turning traitorous to win and destroy them. This is the group that then formed the WG, created the Void Century etc.
9. Now in the modern era, we have people thinking there are these things called DF that have magical powers without realizing they are a product of advanced technology/knowledge. The WG knew these but couldn't replicate the tech themselves until potentially now with Vegapunk.

I know there are a lot of assumptions in there but I think something like the above is where Oda is headed, which ties in DFs, the people in the Sky, Ancient Kingdom, WG, etc together. He can fit all of this in a giant mega saga too which could make the end a lot closer than we think.

 

[thedude]

If we are looking at the translations at play here:

Zoan: Animal system
Ancient zoan: Animal System Ancient Species
Mythical zoan: Animal System Mythical Beast Species

Mythical: occurring in or characteristic of myths or folk tales.

So mythical zoans are fruits with the ability to transform into creatures from myth basically. The context in this case would be that zoans are based on creatures that current exist, ancient zoans are based on creatures that roamed the earth millions of years ago and finally mythical zoans, being based on creatures from myths or legends, are based on essentially fictional creatures. Essentially mythical zoans are not evidence that gods walked the earth before, rather they allow users to transform into creatures that to the best of their knowledge are fictional.

Kaido is a dragon of course and a mythical fruit but odds are that even though dragons exists it is kaido's specific species that is mythical. Hence other dragons being pretty much dinosaurs.

/end thread lol

 

[Zmsp]

I think there are parts of the idea that have merit, especially the ideas you mentioned in subsequent posts e.g. souls, dials, moon people etc.

What I personally think is a long shot/very unlikely is that every power came from a living thing that once existed. For one I don't think it provides an underlying explanation, since all it does is give us a bigger question to answer, why did gods exist in OP in a literal sense and what happened to them? Why did some of the gods have powers that are oddly connected to humans e.g. Washu Washu no mi.

Where I think some of the ideas (moon people, skypeans, dials, souls) connect together in a nice narrative way is:

1. We know there are living things on the moon now and that at one point there was an ancient advanced kingdom (Birka) located there
2. The ancient moon kingdom were technologically advanced (they built robots, and also were able to build flying machines that could traverse from the moon to earth)
3. Due to lack of resources the moon people left the moon and went to Earth leaving behind the following known descendants living in the Sky (Skypeans, Birkans, Shandians)
4. These sky people have unique advanced technologies e.g. Dials
   1. Personally I think Arc Maxim is one of the most impressive things we've seen in OP as far as technology. We have never seen the WG use any flying machines of that scale and power even though they have Vegapunk on their side. If you think about it OP does not have planes (at least none that I've noticed)
5. I don't think these ancient moon people stopped at the Sky. I think they came down to Blue Sea and mixed with humans forming a kingdom that we now call the Ancient Kingdom.
6. Using their advanced technology and the abundant resources on Earth they created something called DFs. My guess is they used technology like Dials, bioengineering, studying other races that existed in the Blue Seas, etc to create the first set of powers. What hasn't been answered is how they became unique fruits that reincarnate (I think we'll get an answer with Vegapunk being introduced since it seems genuinely replicated the Fish Fish fruit). I like the idea of Souls being bound to the first set of powers since the concept of reincarnating souls isn't new to readers.These souls would bring the powers with them. It's possible the OP world will introduce formal magic as part of this since that could explain how powers get binded to a soul and might explain the curse of not being able to swim (seems like a punishment/curse for breaking a supernatural law).
7. With their technology, culture, politics (I think they were more egalitarian/democratic) the Ancient Kingdom became prosperous and very influential globally in the Blue Seas. As their influence spread it became a threat to existing established order of governments/kingdoms around the world that ruled their people like dictatorships/monarchies/etc with lots of poverty, slavery, etc.
8. These existing governments/kingdoms probably went to war with the Ancient Kingdom and used their raw numbers/potential Ancient Kingdom ally turning traitorous to win and destroy them. This is the group that then formed the WG, created the Void Century etc.
9. Now in the modern era, we have people thinking there are these things called DF that have magical powers without realizing they are a product of advanced technology/knowledge. The WG knew these but couldn't replicate the tech themselves until potentially now with Vegapunk.

I know there are a lot of assumptions in there but I think something like the above is where Oda is headed, which ties in DFs, the people in the Sky, Ancient Kingdom, WG, etc together. He can fit all of this in a giant mega saga too which could make the end a lot closer than we think.

Great addition to the thread, thank you!

When Covid kicked in, I had the chance to re-read a couple of arcs and I've given some thought into this. I strongly believe Devil Fruits are indeed technology brought to Earth by the Moon inhabitants, for all the reasons mentioned before. I also believe this much has been hinted and metaphorically depicted in the story, but something's missing, and that's the reason I created this discussion thread.

Every theory will have its flaws, because there's a lot of different "rules" tied to Devil Fruits that make it convoluted. I think technology being part of it is almost a certainty, considering we've been shown that they're manufacturable. But two things are left to explain:

1. The fact that a normal person can't have two and how they respawn after the user dies.
2. Why ocean water drains the power of all Devil Fruit users, no matter the type.

The most reasonable explanation I find for the first, looking at the series, is that they're connected to souls. The fruit is the vessel capable of supporting them, but there has to be a source for the powers. Like I said, I don't see a way of creating something out of nothing, and the only way I see that happening is by virtue of some sort of transcendental being.

The second is what's most confusing about it. Why would the ocean drain the power of all fruit users, no matter the fruit they have?
Even if they're entirely technological or a combination of mechanisms, why is the sea a shared weakness? I honestly like the idea of one single source. It's not too different from my own crazy hypothesis, but instead of a few, there'd only be one source/being. The ocean itself would be a prime candidate, considering all life stems from it, and it's the shared weakness, but that's hard to use as an explanation for the existence of some fruits like the Fire-Fire fruit, and that's why I suggested several sources, but the shared weakness really makes it flawed.

/end thread lol

It's not like anyone's a stranger to the cheeky type, but I'd like to ask why would a discussion thread be over just because I'm wrong?

Even taking that out of the equation, I still don't understand why the nomenclature is relevant to any of this.
Myths are unproven old tales with a supernatural tone to them, but we have actual dragons and gods dwelling in Devil Fruits. They're real within the One Piece world, but so far only by virtue of Devil Fruits. Why? How?

The existence of a fruit based on an actual God is a recent development. I'm intrigued by it, and I put out a very unpolished idea to start the discussion.
You think I'm wrong? I agree, I probably am. What's your take on it then?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Great addition to the thread, thank you!

When Covid kicked in, I had the chance to re-read a couple of arcs and I've given some thought into this. I strongly believe Devil Fruits are indeed technology brought to Earth by the Moon inhabitants, for all the reasons mentioned before. I also believe this much has been hinted and metaphorically depicted in the story, but something's missing, and that's the reason I created this discussion thread.

Every theory will have its flaws, because there's a lot of different "rules" tied to Devil Fruits that make it convoluted. I think technology being part of it is almost a certainty, considering we've been shown that they're manufacturable. But two things are left to explain:

1. The fact that a normal person can't have two and how they respawn after the user dies.
2. Why ocean water drains the power of all Devil Fruit users, no matter the type.

The most reasonable explanation I find for the first, looking at the series, is that they're connected to souls. The fruit is the vessel capable of supporting them, but there has to be a source for the powers. Like I said, I don't see a way of creating something out of nothing, and the only way I see that happening is by virtue of some sort of transcendental being.

The second is what's most confusing about it. Why would the ocean drain the power of all fruit users, no matter the fruit they have?
Even if they're entirely technological or a combination of mechanisms, why is the sea a shared weakness? I honestly like the idea of one single source. It's not too different from my own crazy hypothesis, but instead of a few, there'd only be one source/being. The ocean itself would be a prime candidate, considering all life stems from it, and it's the shared weakness, but that's hard to use as an explanation for the existence of some fruits like the Fire-Fire fruit, and that's why I suggested several sources, but the shared weakness really makes it flawed.

Agreed they definitely have a science to them so they could easily be products of technology. And if anyone in the ancient past accomplished this feat, it would be the Ancient Kingdom, who I also think are related to the moon people in some way. There definitely are magical properties of DF that still need some type of in world explanation but I think we know enough to at least have guesses. Since DF powers in of themselves exist, the things they do at least are not breaking any laws of nature within the OP universe. For example we know for a fact that Souls exist and have properties in OP due to Soru Soru no mi. At the same time we also know that scientists in the OP world have replicated powers of some DF e.g. Kizaru's lasers. So it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility scientists in the past did this with Souls and that is the thing we are missing to explain the reincarnation properties. The whole sea rejecting them/draining them of energy could have lots of explanations but two I like are:

• OP world seas/oceans have frequencies and kairoseki emits the same ones which is how Navy ships can sail on the calm belt. DFs also have frequencies that are inherent to them. It could just be the frequencies of the seas/oceans interfere with ones from DFs, which is why users lose power and drown.
• (This one is inspired by this thread & Pirates of the Caribbean). We know Gods conceptually exist in OP. Luffy is officially a god rn. So what if there is an actual God of the seas/oceans in the OP world and in order to create DFs the Ancient Kingdom had to cross him/her. This God may have cursed DFs which now causes them all to lose power/drown.

I know this is all conjecture but at least gives you an idea of some of the many directions Oda can go in.

 

[Zmsp]

• OP world seas/oceans have frequencies and kairoseki emits the same ones which is how Navy ships can sail on the calm belt. DFs also have frequencies that are inherent to them. It could just be the frequencies of the seas/oceans interfere with ones from DFs, which is why users lose power and drown.
• (This one is inspired by this thread & Pirates of the Caribbean). We know Gods conceptually exist in OP. Luffy is officially a god rn. So what if there is an actual God of the seas/oceans in the OP world and in order to create DFs the Ancient Kingdom had to cross him/her. This God may have cursed DFs which now causes them all to lose power/drown.

I know this is all conjecture but at least gives you an idea of some of the many directions Oda can go in.

The second idea is pretty much a variation of the whole "Sea God" being the original source of power, and goes in line with some of the previous thoughts. I think there's some room for something like that to happen, because we've been introduced to a "cursed" being in Zunisha. Curses seem to exist, so I like it.

The hardest part is connecting technology with supernatural powers/magic. It really does seem too hard to predict at this point, but I honestly think a combination of technology brought by the moon inhabitants and existing gods is the best hypothesis right now. I'll do a re-read on Skypiea and Punk Hazard when I have the chance.

I really dislike the first idea though, but that might just be personal bias. I'm not much of a sci-fi type of guy, but I aknowledge Oda has already dwelled into that realm with all this lineage factor stuff. I just think that it usually ends up ruining stuff unless it's really well explained, and I'm not sure if we've had enough foundations laid for it to be properly explained.

One Piece allowing for conjecture is its best feature for me, so I enjoy it. The world building and mysteries are what sets it apart from other mangas of the genre. It gets too convoluted and tinfoily at times, but it's better than bland shonens where the power of friendship is the explanation for everything!

 

[DeadlyBeast]

The second idea is pretty much a variation of the whole "Sea God" being the original source of power, and goes in line with some of the previous thoughts. I think there's some room for something like that to happen, because we've been introduced to a "cursed" being in Zunisha. Curses seem to exist, so I like it.

The hardest part is connecting technology with supernatural powers/magic. It really does seem too hard to predict at this point, but I honestly think a combination of technology brought by the moon inhabitants and existing gods is the best hypothesis right now. I'll do a re-read on Skypiea and Punk Hazard when I have the chance.

I really dislike the first idea though, but that might just be personal bias. I'm not much of a sci-fi type of guy, but I aknowledge Oda has already dwelled into that realm with all this lineage factor stuff. I just think that it usually ends up ruining stuff unless it's really well explained, and I'm not sure if we've had enough foundations laid for it to be properly explained.

One Piece allowing for conjecture is its best feature for me, so I enjoy it. The world building and mysteries are what sets it apart from other mangas of the genre. It gets too convoluted and tinfoily at times, but it's better than bland shonens where the power of friendship is the explanation for everything!

Yeah I thought a Sea God route could explain it all and is used in a lot of mythological based fiction these days. The first idea about frequencies is based on that one mention by Chopper on how his rumble balls work by effecting the frequencies of his DF. That was bolstered more when people like Law mentioned being able to sense the energy of the kairoseki (when he was fighting Smoker and knew the jitte had kairoseki because he could feel it). This made me think that DFs have an energy signature to them in OP world and that those energy signatures can be disrupted/manipulated via science (Chopper's rumble balls) and the way that Seastone interferes is likely by impacting those frequencies since its energy can be sensed (in real life quantum mechanics describes fundamental forces of energies as fields that can be described via waves which have frequencies) and likely disrupts something fundamental to how DFs operate.