Why doesn't Baam use Ignition?

[Sky is blue]

We saw him using it against Data jahad, He also tried to use it against kallavan during last station arc however was unable to.

We know that it is like a last-resort type of weapon, so it is normal for him to not use it every time. However, he has faced several life-threatening situations (for example, his fight against Dumas, where he almost died multiple times, and also against White, where he used the power of dead souls instead of Ignition. Even though he doesn't like using White's power, he still chose to use it instead of Ignition) where, in my opinion, the use of it was more than justified and not using it just doesn't make sense? So why doesn't he use it?

 

[Demonspeed]

??? Baam always ignites the Thorn. What you are talking about is fully accepting the Thorn and becoming a true, complete LIW like Horyang and Casano. Beta mentioned it years ago but it only happened against Data Zahard. It's another element from years ago that's yet to happen. I don't see why he can't "fully accept" it now but SIU never forgets.

 

[VON]

he wrote himself to a corner since Bam would be too strong.

He's nearly even with Dumas without using ignition with both thorns and the plot convenient Dark Change mode.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Hmm. I have seen fairly some misconceptions about thorn ignition among fandoms tho it is SIU fault himself. Like when does Night use thorn? Always? When thorn is outside of his body? What is ignited thorn? When thorn become massive like in fight with white? When he stabs himself? Does he need to stab everytime to ignite the thorn?

Like if thorn can only be ignited by piercing then how can Rachel use it? She isn't a living ignition weapon like night is?

 

[kkck]

Bam isn't capable of using all of his powerups with complete freedom even after all his powerups. Even his shinwonryu is taxing for him. Igniting the thorn and piercing himself with it is basically a hail mary. Add to that, the thorns in general are endgame or post game equipment... Using them as they were meant to probably requires family head level at least. Meanwhile bam only recently barely grasps dumas' level.

 

[Demonspeed]

Hmm. I have seen fairly some misconceptions about thorn ignition among fandoms tho it is SIU fault himself. Like when does Night use thorn? Always? When thorn is outside of his body? What is ignited thorn? When thorn become massive like in fight with white? When he stabs himself? Does he need to stab everytime to ignite the thorn?

Like if thorn can only be ignited by piercing then how can Rachel use it? She isn't a living ignition weapon like night is?

We can clearly see sparks when Baam is igniting the Thorn. It's always outside of his body.

he wrote himself to a corner since Bam would be too strong.

He's nearly even with Dumas without using ignition with both thorns and the plot convenient Dark Change mode.

I don't think strength is an issue considering the insane power creep. He wasn't really even with Dumas and we learned that Dumas is even stronger outside.

The Black Shinsoo and Dark Change are different because Baam never used them willingly, but he not accepting the Thorn at this point is annoying. Even with all of this he would have more stamina issues too.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2024 ---

Bam isn't capable of using all of his powerups with complete freedom even after all his powerups. Even his shinwonryu is taxing for him. Igniting the thorn and piercing himself with it is basically a hail mary. Add to that, the thorns in general are endgame or post game equipment... Using them as they were meant to probably requires family head level at least. Meanwhile bam only recently barely grasps dumas' level.

Baam doesn't really have issues with Shinwonryu right now, but he needs to refine it and create a technique like Traumerei's All Creatures. He seems rather comfortable with one fragment ignited and only just recently learned to use Leviathan's powers via Mimesis.

 

[maverickframe_19]

he wrote himself to a corner since Bam would be too strong.

He's nearly even with Dumas without using ignition with both thorns and the plot convenient Dark Change mode.

THIS. THIS. THIS.

 

[Sky is blue]

??? Baam always ignites the Thorn

I meant when Bam stabs himself with thorn, like he did against data jahad.

He did it against jahad, so why he doesn't use it against dumas? Even when he nearly died while fighting him

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2024 ---

he wrote himself to a corner since Bam would be too strong.

He's nearly even with Dumas without using ignition with both thorns and the plot convenient Dark Change mode.

I think you are right, it's probably just that Baam would become too strong so SIU had to pretend that it doesn't exist (although I still hope that it's not the case and he give us a explanation later)

Also, It's clearly shown that Baam is weaker than dumas true form, Even while using both thorns and levi power.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

He seems rather comfortable with one fragment ignited and only just recently learned to use Leviathan's powers via Mimesis

Yeah remember when Night used 2nd thorn to transport to sprout from Avto. He said I don't have complete control over the 2nd thorn. From this statement of his, I have always believed he has at least 80 percent mastery if not complete mastery of the 1st thorn fragment.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2024 ---

I don't think strength is an issue considering the insane power creep. He wasn't really even with Dumas and we learned that Dumas is even stronger outside.

That's a misconception. Dumas inside is stronger version not outside version. It would be extremely weird for night to say that when he has fought inside Dumas not outside one. He commented on inside Dumas having strength close to 10 GFLs.

The reason why none knows how strong Dumas is bc none who faced inside Dumas was alive as he said in 611. And this caused people in the tower to have misconception that KH is rival to Dumas when he is just toying with him. I am sure Dumas never fought hard against KH. KH doesn't even know what real Dumas is like.

 

[maverickframe_19]

Yeah remember when Night used 2nd thorn to transport to sprout from Avto. He said I don't have complete control over the 2nd thorn. From this statement of his, I have always believed he has at least 80 percent mastery if not complete mastery of the 1st thorn fragment.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2024 ---

That's a misconception. Dumas inside is stronger version not outside version. It would be extremely weird for night to say that when he has fought inside Dumas not outside one. He commented on inside Dumas having strength close to 10 GFLs.

The reason why none knows how strong Dumas is bc none who faced inside Dumas was alive as he said in 611. And this caused people in the tower to have misconception that KH is rival to Dumas when he is just toying with him. I am sure Dumas never fought hard against KH. KH doesn't even know what real Dumas is like.

No actually my interpretation was the same as Baam. Think about it. Jinsung Ha said if you want to defeat Dumas, you have to go inside his armour and destroy his heart basically. Inside Dumas is Vulnerable. Outside Dumas is stronger because the armour protects him + his various abilities.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

No actually my interpretation was the same as Baam. Think about it. Jinsung Ha said if you want to defeat Dumas, you have to go inside his armour and destroy his heart basically. Inside Dumas is Vulnerable. Outside Dumas is stronger because the armour protects him + his various abilities.

If that the case, what's the difference between Karaka and Dumas? To kill karaka, U also need to enter his heart.
Inside Dumas tanked twin wings which almost took kallachad arms. Tbh, if we look logically, inside version should be stronger. In that limited space, the owner of the armour should be stronger as they are in their territory, like admins are in their respective floors. Inside Dumas was said to have power close to 10 GFLs.

 

[maverickframe_19]

If that the case, what's the difference between Karaka and Dumas? To kill karaka, U also need to enter his heart.
Inside Dumas tanked twin wings which almost took kallachad arms. Tbh, if we look logically, inside version should be stronger. In that limited space, the owner of the armour should be stronger as they are in their territory, like admins are in their respective floors. Inside Dumas was said to have power close to 10 GFLs.

There's no difference. It's the same gimmick as Karaka. Inside Dumas is so strong that he tanked twin wings, which makes the outside Dumas much more impressive. This is what Bam says. You can not go against what the main protagonist is saying, especially when he has firsthand experience of fighting him to the death and has Levi's form to gauge his strength and Dumas's strength. I believe Baam when he said that.
There is no precedent for a tower born to be the strongest in its territory. That precedent is only reserved for irregulars and administrators.

 

[Demonspeed]

That's a misconception. Dumas inside is stronger version not outside version. It would be extremely weird for night to say that when he has fought inside Dumas not outside one. He commented on inside Dumas having strength close to 10 GFLs.

The reason why none knows how strong Dumas is bc none who faced inside Dumas was alive as he said in 611. And this caused people in the tower to have misconception that KH is rival to Dumas when he is just toying with him. I am sure Dumas never fought hard against KH. KH doesn't even know what real Dumas is like.

That's not what Baam said.

 

[V_TheHiddenAxis]

Plot. It would make baam too powerful.

 

[Shadowlord123]

About the Dumas statement, I think it makes far more sense to interpret it as the human Dumas being much stronger.

Without getting into the outside/inside specifics, Bam says that Dumas' true self is much stronger. The true self should undoubtedly be the human form, not the armor item. Dumas is not an item.

With that, you can easily interpret the outside/inside like this:

- Outside the armor = Dumas is not enveloped by his immortal armor = Human Dumas.

- Inside the armor = Dumas is enveloped by the immortal armor = Armored Dumas.

Bam says afterward that nobody may have seen Dumas' real strength. If the armor Dumas, aka the Dumas everyone always gets to fight, is much stronger than the real one, what's the point of even thinking this? It makes far more sense to assume that the Dumas who's practically impossible to get to fight is much stronger (on top of that you need to survive and come back to count as someone that has seen his true strength, making the odds even lower).

This interpretation is supported by feats. The human Dumas was far more overwhelming than the armor. The armor was getting fucked by BH Level firepower, meanwhile the real Dumas withstood attacks that would tear Kallavan's limbs apart without a speck of damage (not even a flinch). The real Dumas also showed the capacity to "fuse" with Rosario and turn it into shinsu (a level of power that was suggested to be "close" to FH), a degree of mastery that the armored one never showcased even when it went purple form.

Overall, considering everything, I think it's safe to assume human Dumas is much stronger.

 

[zoradante1]

There's no difference. It's the same gimmick as Karaka. Inside Dumas is so strong that he tanked twin wings, which makes the outside Dumas much more impressive. This is what Bam says. You can not go against what the main protagonist is saying, especially when he has firsthand experience of fighting him to the death and has Levi's form to gauge his strength and Dumas's strength. I believe Baam when he said that.
There is no precedent for a tower born to be the strongest in its territory. That precedent is only reserved for irregulars and administrators.

thats a translation error, both webtoon and translation made it sound weird, the thing that does not make sense with outside dumas being stronger is that everybody faced dumas KH, jinsung yama they experienced some part of his power and rei just stomped him with his aura and baam said that nobody saw how strong dumas in reality is since dumas gave his all to rei that means he is simply stronger inside, the reason why nobody knows dumas as stronger than outside is because nobody survives at inside, dude casually tanked twin wings that almost shattered kallavan's arm and that twin wings was much much stronger than the one he used againist kallavan also kallavan has durability that exceeds CC level. The real dumas inside his armor is much stronger, that was the only form of dumas that made baam comment about how he is similiar to data zahard in terms power

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2024 ---

About the Dumas statement, I think it makes far more sense to interpret it as the human Dumas being much stronger.

Without getting into the outside/inside specifics, Bam says that Dumas' true self is much stronger. The true self should undoubtedly be the human form, not the armor item. Dumas is not an item.

With that, you can easily interpret the outside/inside like this:

- Outside the armor = Dumas is not enveloped by his immortal armor = Human Dumas.

- Inside the armor = Dumas is enveloped by the immortal armor = Armored Dumas.

Bam says afterward that nobody may have seen Dumas' real strength. If the armor Dumas, aka the Dumas everyone always gets to fight, is much stronger than the real one, what's the point of even thinking this? It makes far more sense to assume that the Dumas who's practically impossible to get to fight is much stronger (on top of that you need to survive and come back to count as someone that has seen his true strength, making the odds even lower).

This interpretation is supported by feats. The human Dumas was far more overwhelming than the armor. The armor was getting fucked by BH Level firepower, meanwhile the real Dumas withstood attacks that would tear Kallavan's limbs apart without a speck of damage (not even a flinch). The real Dumas also showed the capacity to "fuse" with Rosario and turn it into shinsu (a level of power that was suggested to be "close" to FH), a degree of mastery that the armored one never showcased even when it went purple form.

Overall, considering everything, I think it's safe to assume human Dumas is much stronger.

i thought dark change was stronger than levi form due to mistranslation making it look like outside dumas is much stronger, but we now know that human dumas is much stronger, almost close to the level of weakened FHs, so levi form should be stronger you were right, but i think dark change is his irregular mode still, its just that he got so much stronger to a point that using just levi is making him stronger than the time when he used dark change after all he got white's powers,leviathans powers and got much more stronger even in base since he always grows stronger, i still think he would be stronger if he used dark change now since he got much more powers.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024 ---

That's not what Baam said.

thats mistranslation brother, if thats really what baam said then why nobody experienced dumas's real power even though Rei literally manhandled him with his aura alone, and took out jinsung,yama and karaka at the same time, its just that inside dumas is much stronger he took everything from baam with almost no damage who is clearly far beyond CC tier, and baam only said that he is close to FHs in terms of power when he fought him inside.

 

[Demonspeed]

thats mistranslation brother, if thats really what baam said then why nobody experienced dumas's real power even though Rei literally manhandled him with his aura alone, and took out jinsung,yama and karaka at the same time, its just that inside dumas is much stronger he took everything from baam with almost no damage who is clearly far beyond CC tier, and baam only said that he is close to FHs in terms of power when he fought him inside.

Baam didn't say that he was close to the FH. He said a part of his powers was similar. It doesn't matter if he uses his full power or not, he is still nothing to a FH.

 

[Shadowlord123]

i thought dark change was stronger than levi form due to mistranslation making it look like outside dumas is much stronger, but we now know that human dumas is much stronger, almost close to the level of weakened FHs, so levi form should be stronger you were right, but i think dark change is his irregular mode still, its just that he got so much stronger to a point that using just levi is making him stronger than the time when he used dark change after all he got white's powers,leviathans powers and got much more stronger even in base since he always grows stronger, i still think he would be stronger if he used dark change now since he got much more powers.

I won't say anything about a hypothetical current Baam in Dark Change, and which mode is a bigger multiplier. I agree the current Baam as a baseline should be well beyond his Nest self, so his Dark Change would probably be stronger too.

Also, I don't think Dumas is overall close to a severely nerfed GW like the empty shell of Traumerei or Data Zahard. His power was still said to be incomparable to them, with only Rosario Ignition in particular having a form of comparison. Dumas is essentially a human holding an AK47 that outputs power far above his weight class (a bit similar to Tiara with the pen in that sense, whose created fire was also said to be "close"). Their bodies are nowhere near that level, and as such, they'd get destroyed easily in a fight.

If you define FH level firepower as any attack a FH throws, you will naturally conclude that there are lots of levels that can be called "FH level firepower". You wouldn't compare a normal jab from Jinsung with a DTG for example. For Dumas and Tiara, I like to think that if they go all-out with their items (that output far above their weight class), they can approach the surface of the ocean that is a FH. Ultimately, however, they're still fodder.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

About the Dumas statement, I think it makes far more sense to interpret it as the human Dumas being much stronger.

Without getting into the outside/inside specifics, Bam says that Dumas' true self is much stronger. The true self should undoubtedly be the human form, not the armor item. Dumas is not an item.

With that, you can easily interpret the outside/inside like this:

- Outside the armor = Dumas is not enveloped by his immortal armor = Human Dumas.

- Inside the armor = Dumas is enveloped by the immortal armor = Armored Dumas.

Bam says afterward that nobody may have seen Dumas' real strength. If the armor Dumas, aka the Dumas everyone always gets to fight, is much stronger than the real one, what's the point of even thinking this? It makes far more sense to assume that the Dumas who's practically impossible to get to fight is much stronger (on top of that you need to survive and come back to count as someone that has seen his true strength, making the odds even lower).

This interpretation is supported by feats. The human Dumas was far more overwhelming than the armor. The armor was getting fucked by BH Level firepower, meanwhile the real Dumas withstood attacks that would tear Kallavan's limbs apart without a speck of damage (not even a flinch). The real Dumas also showed the capacity to "fuse" with Rosario and turn it into shinsu (a level of power that was suggested to be "close" to FH), a degree of mastery that the armored one never showcased even when it went purple form.

Overall, considering everything, I think it's safe to assume human Dumas is much stronger.

IIRC, when Night says none knows Dumas strength we get to see a panel of real Dumas hiding behind the armour Dumas.