Luslec + Valhalla vs Gustang (No Flames)

[V_TheHiddenAxis]

Lets imaging Luslec gets valhalla from traumerei and luslec is made to fight gustang alongside valhalla who will have same stats as when traumerei used it, who wins this matchup?

For the sake of this matchup lets assume gustang does not have immortality matchup and he can not use his wife's flames.

 

[Shadowlord123]

I'm afraid they job to Unos right now. As far as we've seen, both would be hitting air until eventually dying (and Valhalla would only have one life without All-Creatures reviving her).

 

[Jackjohsnon]

Gustang would win.

Valhala having FH stats is cool and all, but the troubling part is that It is immortal beyond that. WIthout the immortality, I can't see them troubling Gustang as we've seen Traumerei and V can inflict mortal damage against FH tiers even without going all out. Gustang should be able to do the same.

 

[arrowofsky]

First off, I doubt Gustang use Eurasia's fire again, it felt like a one-time thing.
Other than that, about Valhalla, I do wonder something and this is a good post to ask: When Gustang encountered Valhalla and after several chasing, he in the following chapter panels after the place of the great encounter revealed with Valhalla's attack:

https://comick.io/comic/02-tower-of-god/LP2DKgai-chapter-635-en

that "its power is close to a FH, and that probably Ameuz's dead body is inside it."
But we saw Ameuz rather fragile, and "seemingly" killed by one Enkidu slash, and this is not in Enkidu-Admin contract if Ameuz is like them.

Are we sure that Ameuz was dead with the Enkidu's slash, or might Traumerei have experimented things with Ameuz and this Valhalla together without her dying?
Ameuz case was a peculiar endeavor to begin with. V-Arlene-Icarus-Luslec and other parts of their gang was trying to retrieve Ameuz in the middle of all those FHs. For what, really? Maybe Ameuz was more than Traumerei's lover. Yet, there seems to be more between V and Traumerei compared to the other FHs, maybe also related to the relatively close relation between Zahard-Traumerei.

I'm afraid they job to Unos right now. As far as we've seen, both would be hitting air until eventually dying (and Valhalla would only have one life without All-Creatures reviving her).

Luslec also has a weird spatial enclosure tactics, it may work similarly to a 3D disconnection. We discussed these while considering Tiara's intangibility as well. At the worst case, Luslec can suppress/encapsulate Hunos for a while. Gustang's library/scripting things out of his a$$ is simply much dangerous than just one case of that activity anyway, and just like so many people here pointed out already, Luslec's spells most probably not a good match against Gustang. If Luslec does not have anything up his sleeve other than what we have seen, the encounter weighs more on Gustang vs Valhalla, and Gustang can handle it.

Without further ado, 90 % Gustang wins, 10 % draw.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

Are we sure that Ameuz was dead with the Enkidu's slash, or might Traumerei have experimented things with Ameuz and this Valhalla together without her dying?
Ameuz case was a peculiar endeavor to begin with. V-Arlene-Icarus-Luslec and other parts of their gang was trying to retrieve Ameuz in the middle of all those FHs. For what, really? Maybe Ameuz was more than Traumerei's lover. Yet, there seems to be more between V and Traumerei compared to the other FHs, maybe also related to the relatively close relation between Zahard-Traumerei.

Valhala's powers have to do with the portion of his power that Traumerei's given to it, not Ameuz's powers. In ToG, powers are linked to souls, shinsoo. Not the body. A body without shinsoo reinforcement is just an easy slash target for anyone. Though, an irregular body should be different as It is an outside body, not shinsoo.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Luslec also has a weird spatial enclosure tactics, it may work similarly to a 3D disconnection. We discussed these while considering Tiara's intangibility as well. At the worst case, Luslec can suppress/encapsulate Hunos for a while. Gustang's library/scripting things out of his a$$ is simply much dangerous than just one case of that activity anyway, and just like so many people here pointed out already, Luslec's spells most probably not a good match against Gustang. If Luslec does not have anything up his sleeve other than what we have seen, the encounter weighs more on Gustang vs Valhalla, and Gustang can handle it.

Without further ado, 90 % Gustang wins, 10 % draw.

I'm unsure if Bright Charge would be that effective against a FH. Sure, it worked on Urek, but a FH is a different kind of opponent. Not because they're stronger, but because they got special tools to counter spells (Shinwonryu) and are themselves spellcasters with good knowledge about them (this should especially be true about Gustang). They aren't gonna go with the "haha, strong punch go brrr" approach of Urek; that's not how spells are supposed to be fought. As in, we saw Traumerei passively shatter Luslec's Bright Charge without him even intending to.

Even if it worked good and he managed to enclose Unos, we don't know if that would be enough to cut the connection between Gustang and him, and make Gustang lose his wind intangibility. The effect would only be temporary, and Gustang would very likely break the technique one way or another.

Not very likely to work well as you already pointed out.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

I think this topic is kind of interesting because Valhala clearly started the trend of the "close to FH" stats.

Valhala is a shinheuh with power and speed close to an FH, but It's biggest main point is that It can fight alongside Traumerei and It is immortal.

Luslec, I think he will have something 'close to FH' too. Probably his body is close to an ultimate descendant or his spells are close to Arlene's.

Adori, probably similar to Valhala. She has power and speed close to FHs, but her main selling point is probably a mix of this with her weapons and Arie Sword.

In any way, I don't see any of those three being a solid FH tier, because even if they have, let's say, a physical strength similar to Gustang or Traumerei, we've seen Traumerei killing Gustang, then killing Valhala and then killing Himself with only a Disconnection Sheet. He didn't need to do some Zenkai and a big boom, he just did It.

That's what makes even base Traumerei a more solid FH tier than those guys. Base Traumerei is basically someone who controls a thing with stats equal to his own, an OP one shot technique, plus a god-like shinsoo technique that allows everything he controls to be immortal.

And when you think about It, Gustang surpassed Traumerei as a summoner.

Then those guys will have 'close to FH' mentions but never a solid FH tier case.

 

[Ray Barracuda]

All FH's plus Zahard are the enemy of all spells by nature but goddamn! With Gustang it becomes the same as actually shooting yourself in the foot.


Public enemy no.1 for a person like Luslec so this is really just Valhalla vs Gustang and yeah, he folds of them quite badly.

 

[arrowofsky]

I'm unsure if Bright Charge would be that effective against a FH. Sure, it worked on Urek, but a FH is a different kind of opponent. Not because they're stronger, but because they got special tools to counter spells (Shinwonryu) and are themselves spellcasters with good knowledge about them (this should especially be true about Gustang). They aren't gonna go with the "haha, strong punch go brrr" approach of Urek; that's not how spells are supposed to be fought. As in, we saw Traumerei passively shatter Luslec's Bright Charge without him even intending to.

Even if it worked good and he managed to enclose Unos, we don't know if that would be enough to cut the connection between Gustang and him, and make Gustang lose his wind intangibility. The effect would only be temporary, and Gustang would very likely break the technique one way or another.

Not very likely to work well as you already pointed out.

It is not that different with Traumerei disconnect the whole Hunos and Gustang's intangibility termination. We are not talking about bright charging Gustang, but a repeated activation/deactivation on Hunos. It is a Manhwa/manga thing that when a certain character can't win with a way of attack, they just use another one in general. The point here is that, even if Luslec successfully prison Hunos, I don't see any obstacle on Gustang rescripting another Hunos again, that's where the problem is, not the other way around. It is simply too much that not the FH himself/herself, but its script overpower Luslec.

Moreover, Shinwonryu - Shinsoo black hole sphere does seem to be a technique to condense and explode shinsoo. I miss the part when it is said that Shinwonryu break through spells instantly and also the part where we have seen that Traumerei inadvertently shattered the bright charge. The way Luslec used to stop Urek was in this way, though disconnection can very well do that when it is aimed to do so. Baam's antispell nature is like something else, either from Arlene or outer god, imo. Not that all irregulars necessarily have that or from rice pot/shinwonryu. Of course, you can show me the chapter to correct me out Traumerei could not even get out some silly Gustang things, like changing his mask to cat face, that's ridiculous if you have a surefire way to negate spells with shinwonryu.

 

[Demonspeed]

Gustang wins of course but you guys forgot that Valhalla only has these stats because Traumerei is controlling her. Without his control it's much weaker.

 

[Shadowlord123]

I think this topic is kind of interesting because Valhala clearly started the trend of the "close to FH" stats.

Valhala is a shinheuh with power and speed close to an FH, but It's biggest main point is that It can fight alongside Traumerei and It is immortal.

Luslec, I think he will have something 'close to FH' too. Probably his body is close to an ultimate descendant or his spells are close to Arlene's.

Adori, probably similar to Valhala. She has power and speed close to FHs, but her main selling point is probably a mix of this with her weapons and Arie Sword.

In any way, I don't see any of those three being a solid FH tier, because even if they have, let's say, a physical strength similar to Gustang or Traumerei, we've seen Traumerei killing Gustang, then killing Valhala and then killing Himself with only a Disconnection Sheet. He didn't need to do some Zenkai and a big boom, he just did It.

That's what makes even base Traumerei a more solid FH tier than those guys. Base Traumerei is basically someone who controls a thing with stats equal to his own, an OP one shot technique, plus a god-like shinsoo technique that allows everything he controls to be immortal.

And when you think about It, Gustang surpassed Traumerei as a summoner.

Then those guys will have 'close to FH' mentions but never a solid FH tier case.

Yeah, I agree here. The "close to FH" thing is an interesting concept overall, and probably the main reason why I believe SIU won't make Top Tower-born completely irrelevant in front of FHs.

It started with Tiara's flames being "close" to that of Gustang's. It continued with Dumas' Rosario ignition being "close" to the versions of the Great Warriors Baam had seen in action. In both cases, only the weapon/gimmick (Rosario and the fire created with the Pen) was noted to be "close". Tiara and Dumas overall weren't anywhere near that.

Then we got Valhalla. Clearly another level from those two. There was no longer a single weapon/gimmick; her entire body was deemed to have power and speed "close" to FH when controlled by Rei, and then of course there were additional things, just as her immortality and hypnotic hax. That said, even with all that portrayal and feats, it was clear that it doesn't pose much of an issue to a FH that fights properly. She lacks the god-like skills that make up a FH, and thus can't be more than a fraction of a FH (Traumerei). A meaningful fraction, but still just a fraction.

If I had to guess, what we commonly call the Top-Towerborn (TT) Tier is probably what will end up being as the overall "close to FH" level. The combat abilities of people in this tier will be something that the Great Warriors can't take lightly, but that should be able to deal with comfortably once they start fighting more or less properly (Valhalla IMO, would be on the lower end of that tier when controlled by Traumerei). Those around the Regent spectrum may have a singular gimmick/item (Rosario; the Pen) that approaches Top Tower-born lvl, but overall won't be close to that level and will remain as slaughter material for them.

I can see SIU going for that tbh.

It is not that different with Traumerei disconnect the whole Hunos and Gustang's intangibility termination. We are not talking about bright charging Gustang, but a repeated activation/deactivation on Hunos. It is a Manhwa/manga thing that when a certain character can't win with a way of attack, they just use another one in general. The point here is that, even if Luslec successfully prison Hunos, I don't see any obstacle on Gustang rescripting another Hunos again, that's where the problem is, not the other way around. It is simply too much that not the FH himself/herself, but its script overpower Luslec.

It's pretty different from Traumerei's Disconnection. Unos won't be annihilated or harmed whatsoever inside Bright Charge, and thus it begs the question: will it be enough to cut its ties with Gustang and make him lose the wind intangibility? If it doesn't, it's practically meaningless.

Gustang was always shown to be very close to Unos as well, so that's another problem. Even if it works out, it's at best a very temporary thing (that will be even less temporary if Gustang is around to destroy it). Of course, as you say, Gustang conserving the book and repeatedly creating another one is also a problem.

I miss the part when it is said that Shinwonryu break through spells instantly

Traumerei's golden animals (which came from his Shinwonryu) immediately destroyed the Nest walls, which were protected by a FH's spell. Nobody even considered the option of breaking these walls through raw power, but each one of these countless fodder Shinheuh could get through it easily.

Vanquish (also comes from Traumerei's Shinwonryu) negated Dumas' armor spell with its poison, and made him completely unable to grow his arms back, even though these kinds of armors have always regenerated from anything.

It seems pretty clear that it's not just a thing for Baam. Shinwonryu in itself is a perfect counter to Spells and breaks them instantly.

also the part where we have seen that Traumerei inadvertently shattered the bright charge.

Traumerei's power cut through the space isolated from reality created by Bright Charge, completely blowing away the glass fragments that formed it. Instants later, Urek can already move again (if he couldn't, he wouldn't think of deliberately letting them go to deal with another problem).

Traumerei could not even get out some silly Gustang things, like changing his mask to cat face, that's ridiculous if you have a surefire way to negate spells with shinwonryu.

Gustang's writings aren't suggested to be spells.

 

[arrowofsky]

Traumerei's golden animals (which came from his Shinwonryu) immediately destroyed the Nest walls, which were protected by a FH's spell. Nobody even considered the option of breaking these walls through raw power, but each one of these countless fodder Shinheuh could get through it easily.

Vanquish (also comes from Traumerei's Shinwonryu) negated Dumas' armor spell with its poison, and made him completely unable to grow his arms back, even though these kinds of armors have always regenerated from anything.

It seems pretty clear that it's not just a thing for Baam. Shinwonryu in itself is a perfect counter to Spells and breaks them instantly.

Traumerei's power cut through the space isolated from reality created by Bright Charge, completely blowing away the glass fragments that formed it. Instants later, Urek can already move again (if he couldn't, he wouldn't think of deliberately letting them go to deal with another problem).

Gustang's writings aren't suggested to be spells.

"Space isolation by bright charge" is wrong, he looks rather in Dark charge, at the very least, not in light charge where he separates himself from the opponent, not encapsulating both together in a specific place. After the first appearance of dark charge, SIU always drew that with glass shatters for whatever reason, and from the Shin translation and general overlook, Urek did not seem to have a deliberate choice, but rather a forced one. The actual case of light charge was on Luslec's escape with Vaam not when he creates a little yellow flower in his hand.

Maybe the charges are, too, not to be suggested as spells, but an item.

 

[Shadowlord123]

"Space isolation by bright charge" is wrong, he looks rather in Dark charge, at the very least, not in light charge where he separates himself from the opponent, not encapsulating both together in a specific place. After the first appearance of dark charge, SIU always drew that with glass shatters for whatever reason, and from the Shin translation and general overlook, Urek did not seem to have a deliberate choice, but rather a forced one. The actual case of light charge was on Luslec's escape with Vaam not when he creates a little yellow flower in his hand.

Maybe the charges are, too, not to be suggested as spells, but an item.

I get that it's confusing, since for Bright Charge to happen, Dark Charge needs to be forcefully deactivated, and there was no implication Dark Charge was ever activated in the first place. However, the way the technique was drawn, and the effect it had, it was undoubtedly Bright Charge. Dark Charge doesn't have those visuals and it starts as an offensive dark wave once it's activated. There was no offensive. The effect was to trap, and it had the exact same visuals as Bright Charge. This is just SIU being inconsistent (sadly, a far too common theme in Season 3).

The charges are strongly suggested to be spells, as they're casted the exact same way as the other attacks from Luslec (which are spells).

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

got special tools to counter spells (Shinwonryu)

Tbh, I really doubt this. We have seen only one full version of Shinsu black hole sphere, it's All Creatures. What it does is create space to store animals, give life through necromancy and make them immortal.

Traumerei's golden animals (which came from his Shinwonryu) immediately destroyed the Nest walls, which were protected by a FH's spell. Nobody even considered the option of breaking these walls through raw power, but each one of these countless fodder Shinheuh could get through it easily.

Unfortunately I belong to the people who think they destroyed it via pure strength.

Vanquish (also comes from Traumerei's Shinwonryu) negated Dumas' armor spell with its poison, and made him completely unable to grow his arms back, even though these kinds of armors have always regenerated from anything.

I think it was more due to its deadly poison. After all it's one of the 3 WDs he control. I don't think Rapid or even Valhalla would have managed to damage Dumas Armour and make it unrepairable.

It seems pretty clear that it's not just a thing for Baam. Shinwonryu in itself is a perfect counter to Spells and breaks them instantly

Night always was a special case. He can undo the spell just by touching it like with Doom. They don't even work against him. Also his SBHS is anti shinsu and spell property. Just think about it, when Night asked Gussy to remove the spell in FOD, he said even he couldn't remove it. If SBHS is really effective, he could have done it.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Tbh, I really doubt this. We have seen only one full version of Shinsu black hole sphere, it's All Creatures. What it does is create space to store animals, give life through necromancy and make them immortal.



Unfortunately I belong to the people who think they destroyed it via pure strength.



I think it was more due to its deadly poison. After all it's one of the 3 WDs he control. I don't think Rapid or even Valhalla would have managed to damage Dumas Armour and make it unrepairable.



Night always was a special case. He can undo the spell just by touching it like with Doom. They don't even work against him. Also his SBHS is anti shinsu and spell property. Just think about it, when Night asked Gussy to remove the spell in FOD, he said even he couldn't remove it. If SBHS is really effective, he could have done it.

The golden Shinheuh destroying the walls through pure force is very far-fetched. It was outright said that it's impossible to penetrate the walls using physical force or Shinsu, and that only one of the FHs or Zahard (or Baam who has Shinwonryu like them) has the power to break the spell. If each golden Shinheuh had the raw power to easily destroy the Walls, FUG could've gotten through without the need of using Baam.

I don't think Vanquish is one of the 3 Sea Dragons, but leaving that aside, there was something special about its poison. It shouldn't be about sheer power and the damage received. Karaka's armor (same type as Dumas) was partially reduced to dust by Urek's finger and could still regenerate back like nothing. While it's not made clear what made Dumas unable to grow back his arms, I think it's a plausible assumption that it was due to the poison being infused with Shinwonryu properties, which partially nullified the spell of the armor (we know from Karaka that those armors are infused with a spell; it was implied that a spell is the cause of their regeneration).

 

[Jackjohsnon]

It's established in the webtoon that Shinwonryu counter spells. I'm not sure why people are trying to go against It.

Traumerei's shinheuh are not very strong by their own, If you think the seven beasts are among the strongest, and most of them can't beat a CC easy, then you have so many shinheuh who got punched away by Yama and stopped by Sophia breaking the Nest spells. It's clearly a counter spell.

Also Vanquish poison causing permanent damage on Dumas' armor has nothing to do with how potent is Its poison. Dumas and Karaka's armor can heal even from things like Urek's attacks. It's an Anti-Spell attribute again.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

The golden Shinheuh destroying the walls through pure force is very far-fetched. It was outright said that it's impossible to penetrate the walls using physical force or Shinsu, and that only one of the FHs or Zahard (or Baam who has Shinwonryu like them) has the power to break the spell. If each golden Shinheuh had the raw power to easily destroy the Walls, FUG could've gotten through without the need of using Baam.

I maybe disremembering things but didn't Night undo the spell B4 Rei even visited the nest. Was it ever said, the spells will be reactivated once the needle is in? Tbh, I still believe TT will have no problem destroying the walls.

I don't think Vanquish is one of the 3 Sea Dragons, but leaving that aside, there was something special about its poison. It shouldn't be about sheer power and the damage received. Karaka's armor (same type as Dumas) was partially reduced to dust by Urek's finger and could still regenerate back like nothing. While it's not made clear what made Dumas unable to grow back his arms, I think it's a plausible assumption that it was due to the poison being infused with Shinwonryu properties, which partially nullified the spell of the armor (we know from Karaka that those armors are infused with a spell; it was implied that a spell is the cause of their regeneration).

It's bc of UM vs Karaka that I find it hard to believe other animals would have caused the same damage. I don't think we know how Dumas managed to damage Karaka armour to the point it was unrepairable for a while. Hopefully next season will make it crystal clear is SBHS really nemesis of spells. Otherwise, how weak Arlene would appear in front of other FLs and Jahad since her spells can be instantly neutralized. That alone would make V fighting a lose war since Arlene is ineffective against SBHS and it would be 1 Vs 11.

 

[Ray Barracuda]

Otherwise, how weak Arlene would appear in front of other FLs and Jahad since her spells can be instantly neutralized.

Gustang already alluded to having defeated Arlene in the past after she failed to stop him by standing in his way just like Baam did.

So yeah, it's not really news here if she's on the weaker side, people selectively believing she was on top is what brought us here in the first place.

It's bc of UM vs Karaka that I find it hard to believe other animals would have caused the same damage.

I think you're missing the important component of shinsoo playing a part in one of this instance and absolutely devoid in the other.

Pure physical power is not the same as power enhanced by shinsoo bearing distinct properties, we know this already.

Shinsoo has functions and natures, things it can specifically affect, cause, create or destroy.


Dumas has a weird nature and is strong too to boot.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

I maybe disremembering things but didn't Night undo the spell B4 Rei even visited the nest. Was it ever said, the spells will be reactivated once the needle is in? Tbh, I still believe TT will have no problem destroying the walls.





It's bc of UM vs Karaka that I find it hard to believe other animals would have caused the same damage. I don't think we know how Dumas managed to damage Karaka armour to the point it was unrepairable for a while. Hopefully next season will make it crystal clear is SBHS really nemesis of spells. Otherwise, how weak Arlene would appear in front of other FLs and Jahad since her spells can be instantly neutralized. That alone would make V fighting a lose war since Arlene is ineffective against SBHS and it would be 1 Vs 11.

Your points basically strengthen the point: It's not power, but a counter spell attribute.

Unless you think Dumas random spear attack is stronger than Urek's shinsoo blast. Dumas knows how to deal with people like himself.

Also, your point about Arlene is pointless. Arlene is also an shinwonryu user. Traumerei himself has mixed shinwonryu and a spell altogether. It's not everything that will get broken, It depends on its strength. The argument on Luslec is just that people like me and others don't believe Luslec's spells are on the same level as Arlene's and would get broken by a FH.

Let's be honest, Urek also said there are means to do It, he just didn't do because of plot reasons. Don't overestimate the spells. They are stronger, but their strength depends on the user and how they are used.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Unless you think Dumas random spear attack is stronger than Urek's shinsoo blast. Dumas knows how to deal with people like himself.

Dumas didn't know Karaka was armour user. He straight up went for kill by going after heart. Since Karaka was alive, he said he's also the user of armour. And he didn't even attack him afterwards. He might know how to deal with people like himself but at that point he himself didn't know Karaka was armour user. Check 586.

It's not everything that will get broken, It depends on its strength

I again doubt this. If spell are based on strength, why is Night able to undo spells on the walls which only FLs are able to do? Spells have nothing to do with levels.

The argument on Luslec is just that people like me and others don't believe Luslec's spells are on the same level as Arlene's and would get broken by a FH.

I firmly believe even LS version of night's SBHS would easily dispell the spells of mirchea.

Don't overestimate the spells.

I think spells to towerborns are what SBHS to irregulars. Spells give them edge. For instance white, Karaka, levy. Some spells are even guardians cannot dispell it like in 13 MS. That's why people think they are very powerful.