Lmfao!! I would defend bro, but nah OverBearing may be an understatement.
Still yet, dislike the hate bro gets sometimes, he not even in his bag of overbearing yet lol. Seriously, though he made a statement. & is providing reasoning and evidence from the source material for his opinion . He may be wrong, his perspective isn’t dog ish is basically the crux, let’s give each other grace. Oda does write this ish open to interpretation, big underlying premise of the whole story and lore.
Sanji having COC doesn’t fit genetics, Besides the stretch that his ancestor Sora or w/e his lineage hasn’t been revealed to be all that great…BB doesn’t seem to have it despite his lineage.
Sanji & BB aside, CoC does may be hereditary as well as the disposition mentioned in the story. The troupe of Eugentics & lineage is damn near played out, why are we so resistant to the norm?
I'm not reading any of that before the thing about Katakuri, I'm just going to make a jerk-off motion in your direction because as always, I already answered every argument you made, you just can't not do an elaborate "nu uh!" if you disagree with something.
Sanji having COC doesn’t fit genetics, Besides the stretch that his ancestor Sora or w/e his lineage hasn’t been revealed to be all that great…BB doesn’t seem to have it despite his lineage.
The thing about genetics is that it can be latent.
There could be someone in your family line that has a specific genetic feature (e.g. unbreakable bones (yes it's a real thing)) that only appears maybe every 10th generation. A gene not appearing in one generation doesn't mean the gene isn't there. LRP5 Gene (Unbreakable Bones): Mutations that affect bone-density regulation can cause bones to become super-dense. People with this trait have skeletons that are nearly impossible to fracture.
Genes can skip generations, and there are genes that can be very common within a gene pool.
Furthermore, genes also change/mutate at some point during replication (basically cancer). This is why someone can end up being born with unbreakable bones even if that's not normal.
There could be someone in your family that had it, and there could also be someone in your family line from 1000s of years that never had it, and then the next child born in your family ends up having this specific gene due to a mutation. There doesn't need to be a historical occurrence for it to occur.
There's absolutely no reason why Sanji developing King's Haki is weird... furthermore, he is someone whose genes were tampered with, very possible he has a mutation in his genes that developed into genes required for King's Haki ability. It's one thing to have it, it's another thing to even awaken or use it and that's based on talent which is also genetic.
In fact, there is an instance where a Black African family gave birth to a completely Caucasian Blue Eyed Blonde Haired kid.. paternity proved this was their daughter... so yes, specific Genes can proliferate through a family line, and Genes can also mutate to give people abnormal features that were never existent in that family line to begin with.
It also makes no sense to say someone doesn't fit genetics... it's like saying someone doesn't fit the genetics to be tall. You can't really determine a process that is pretty much a random event that occurs during birth.
You don't have to be a great person to have specific genes. Genes can be common, and Genes can just develop due to mutations. Sanji doesn't really need to have a history of King Haki users for Kings Haki genes to appear somewhere down a family line, it could be a mutation from birth.
Genes are the only thing that explain why King's Haki is something that cannot be trained, so it means it is something that is intrinsic (genetic). It's not something you learn (extrinsic). Gene are inherited, therefore, why Ace was killed because he was the son of Roger, the strongest Haki user in the series, the fear was that he had the potential to be like Roger if not greater - and Genes can also be acquired from simply mutations.
If you don't have a Gene for King's Haki, it makes absolute sense why you can't train it unless you had it to begin with. It's a matter of having some rudimentary understanding of how genes work.
You can just disagree without being such a lunatic.
If you don't like my posts, stop being a child as usual, and just block me - act like your age, you're damn well in your late 30s dude. Imagine being a grown adult physically, but mentally lack the maturity to be civil.
As for being the Big Brother, being a Big Brother doesn't determine having King's Haki, nor does being a Captain. If that were the case, then all first born, all captains, all leaders would have it - yet only 1 in a million have it.
That would essentially mean being a leader is a 1 in a million quality... yet there are many leaders in the series who don't have King's Haki. Being a leader is not a 1 in a million quality, so it can't explain why some people have King's Haki and some don't... because there are many many leaders.
Being a leader is not something you're born to be, you develop into that role - if developing into a role of a leader is what determines King's Haki, then Rayleigh would have said anyone can develop King's Haki... but he said it's impossible to train to acquire King's Haki.
So, just with simple logic, if it can't be trained or developed, then it means it is something innate by default that you can use if you have the talent to train it, or no amount of training will help because you don't possess it.
Garp didn't say "well he does have leadership qualities, no wonder he's got Kings' Haki"... he said so you were born with it too.
If you can't make a point without being civil, god help you, lol.
@Hannibal Psyche Trim the Fat!! Unnecessary long.
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Bro I hate, seriously I hate it when people apply way too much real world logic into a fictional tail. Chill out with the genes, I believe most have a basic foundational education about genes. What Black ppl got to do with this?!?!?! Lmfao black by the way so let’s just move on, pls and TY.
@Hannibal Psyche Trim the Fat!! Unnecessary long.
&
Bro I hate, seriously I hate it when people apply way too much real world logic into a fictional tail. Chill out with the genes, I believe most have a basic foundational education about genes. What Black ppl got to do with this?!?!?! Lmfao black by the way so let’s just move on, pls and TY.
If what I am saying is wrong, then prove it is wrong.
Applying real world logic into fiction? How, it literally states he was born with it, being born with something means it's a genetic thing, that's not me forcing an idea, it's the manga that stated it.
My point about Black people assuming you didn't understand was that genetics can mutate to express things that seem odd and impossible. Having unbreakable bones, a Black couple having a Caucasian kid... my point being you don't need to have a family of King's Haki users to be born with it, and that someone who is from such a family is more likely to possess King's Haki.
Luffy comes from a family of King's Haki users - therefore he is more likely to be born with it.
Sanji doesn't seemingly come from one, doesn't mean he can't have mutated genes for it.
Again, you can be ignorant about the fact real world logics does work in the Manga if the author decides to make it a thing - Fire gets put out by Ice/Water. That is real world logic. Rubber doesn't conduct Electricity, real world logic... don't get upset at the messenger, be mad at Oda.
Ehn, that's definitely not true - if people did, then what I'm saying wouldn't be contentious as you're making it.
I'd like to believe that, but this reaction like it makes no sense says otherwise, so nonetheless, my point still stands.
Can't prove that Oda isn't the one bringing real world logic into One Piece - Lineage factors is actually just genes in One Piece, he's able to take "lineage factors from other races" and infuse these "lineage factors into others" to create hybrids... that's real world science.
If you're upset about real world logics having some role in One Piece, I am sorry to disappoint you, but you must have completely missed it for the last thousand chapters.
So you can't blame me for talking about real things from reality that apply to the world of One Piece when Oda is the one introducing them.
So, if you're upset at Oda saying Luffy was born with King's Haki, then that's your problem.
Isn't it insane to get annoyed at me for saying exactly what the Manga said?
You just sound angry for no reason, if you disagree, prove your point, not sure why people are so sensitive, lol.
It's so strange that people ask questions implying they want an answer, or discuss, and when they get given an answer, they're upset? Why ask the question or inquire in the first place, lol. If you disagree, just prove your disagreement with evidence, and if you can't, then just say you can't prove your point, but you disagree, lol.
It's not hard to have a conversation like a normal person without throwing tantrums.
You know, to have a conqueror haki you should at least want to conquer something, that's what Gaban said do Sanji.
Zoro wants to be the biggest swordman in the world, Sanji wants to find all blue (still lack of will to it, as not fighting woman, that's why he still don't have it), and Jinbe? He only wants to follow Luffy cause Ace asked him to... To me, he still lack of an real goal he want to achieve so he can conquer it and develop conqueror haki.
Doesn't very fishman want slavery and war to end? That's not a big ambition.
If you live in a war torn country, you would want the war to end.
If this is what defines big ambition, every Fishman should have Conqueror's Haki too I guess.
like with anything else, King's haki can be what Oda wants. If he wants it to be genetic, he can make it genetic. If he wants it to be for those that want to conquer, he can do that as well. I'm more annoyed at the fact that Sanji having Conqueror's haki and not Jinbei is somehow offensive to certain people.
I would like Jinbei to develop King's Haki.
As a Fishman, there has got to be at least one of them that will take down a God Knight imo after all they've been through from the Celestial Dragons.
It would be a shame if after 800 years of being treated as just Fish, and only just barely recognised as people only 200 years ago which didn't do much to even get them recognised as people globally or with respect, a Fishman has to surely do some damage and it wouldn't be possible without King's Haki.
But, on the other hand, another narrative would be that instead of a Fishman taking down a God Knight, the fact that Humans under Luffy came together to defeat the WG would also help to change Fishman's view on Humans. If they can see they're not all bad, I think narratively, Jinbei not having King's Haki would bode well in that respect as the end goal is for the Fishman to come up to the surface.
If a Kid like Ace can use King's despite not having any ambition, even that proves this idea that it is based on character is not a true. Same can literally be said about Yamato, it's not like she wanted to be a king or ruler as a kid, or had any ambition, she just wanted to be free, yet she used King's Haki as a kid.
I guess it's a 50:50 thing for me, but for sure, he could have it - there's no reason why anyone in the series isn't allowed to have King's Haki since it has nothing to do with character or ambition.
I would like Jinbei to develop King's Haki.
As a Fishman, there has got to be at least one of them that will take down a God Knight imo after all they've been through from the Celestial Dragons.
It would be a shame if after 800 years of being treated as just Fish, and only just barely recognised as people only 200 years ago which didn't do much to even get them recognised as people globally or with respect, a Fishman has to surely do some damage and it wouldn't be possible without King's Haki.
But, on the other hand, another narrative would be that instead of a Fishman taking down a God Knight, the fact that Humans under Luffy came together to defeat the WG would also help to change Fishman's view on Humans. If they can see they're not all bad, I think narratively, Jinbei not having King's Haki would bode well in that respect as the end goal is for the Fishman to come up to the surface.
If a Kid like Ace can use King's despite not having any ambition, even that proves this idea that it is based on character is not a true. Same can literally be said about Yamato, it's not like she wanted to be a king or ruler as a kid, or had any ambition, she just wanted to be free, yet she used King's Haki as a kid.
I guess it's a 50:50 thing for me, but for sure, he could have it - there's no reason why anyone in the series isn't allowed to have King's Haki since it has nothing to do with character or ambition.
Hey, Hannibal. Hope you're well on this break week.
Reading this, it made me wonder if Fishmen dont have the genetics for Conq. But for that to be true, I'd wager there'd have to be something like "races too far from human" do not have it. At which point I'd have to say the Mink do not have the capacity for it. I hope this is not the case.
I think we've talked about this next bit before, so apologies if I am repeating. I am still of the belief that having the Conq "gene" still predisposes someone to certain behaviors later in life that causes in-universe observers to call it "qualities/disposition of a king." (note, I'm saying predispose to be statistically accurate. A predisposition does not mean it's a guarantee). I do think that in-universe, some people are using some form of confirmation bias. I do think this also leads to the situation where Gaban, upon probably sensing something in Sanji, assumes he needs the behavior that the other users he knows have.
Anyway, it's like how Type A personalities are at higher risk of having high blood pressure. (This isnt the best comparison.)
Or how having the genetics that alter the brain's reward system in a certain way predisposes people to expressing gambling addiction if given the chance.
I think this model is probably the one that fits One Piece's reality and in-universe observations.
Also, it allows for the environmental factor angle. For example, I think Conq can be expressed in a crisis point or in other words, if enough external stress is applied.
If we were to go further, I would say that there must be specific lineages where the activation of Conq is easier than for others, accounting for helpful mutations across the generations.
I do wonder if what we saw S Snake might indicate something else here too. I'm not sure how to fit it in, but S Snake showing infatuation toward Luffy amd having Vegapunk wonder about the "extra" info transmitted through lineage factors was interesting. The Seraphim in general are weird with how they show clear bias toward their original's fashion sense and weapons, but I dont know how I feel about the idea of genetic memory in one piece at the moment.
Hey, Hannibal. Hope you're well on this break week.
Reading this, it made me wonder if Fishmen dont have the genetics for Conq. But for that to be true, I'd wager there'd have to be something like "races too far from human" do not have it. At which point I'd have to say the Mink do not have the capacity for it. I hope this is not the case.
I think we've talked about this next bit before, so apologies if I am repeating. I am still of the belief that having the Conq "gene" still predisposes someone to certain behaviors later in life that causes in-universe observers to call it "qualities/disposition of a king." (note, I'm saying predispose to be statistically accurate. A predisposition does not mean it's a guarantee). I do think that in-universe, some people are using some form of confirmation bias. I do think this also leads to the situation where Gaban, upon probably sensing something in Sanji, assumes he needs the behavior that the other users he knows have.
Anyway, it's like how Type A personalities are at higher risk of having high blood pressure. (This isnt the best comparison.)
Or how having the genetics that alter the brain's reward system in a certain way predisposes people to expressing gambling addiction if given the chance.
I think this model is probably the one that fits One Piece's reality and in-universe observations.
Also, it allows for the environmental factor angle. For example, I think Conq can be expressed in a crisis point or in other words, if enough external stress is applied.
If we were to go further, I would say that there must be specific lineages where the activation of Conq is easier than for others, accounting for helpful mutations across the generations.
I do wonder if what we saw S Snake might indicate something else here too. I'm not sure how to fit it in, but S Snake showing infatuation toward Luffy amd having Vegapunk wonder about the "extra" info transmitted through lineage factors was interesting. The Seraphim in general are weird with how they show clear bias toward their original's fashion sense and weapons, but I dont know how I feel about the idea of genetic memory in one piece at the moment.
I'm good, thanks for asking, hope you're well too dude.
Personally, I think since Fishmen do have Haki like Armament and Observation, I'd imagine they have as much likelihood for Conq. as any other race.
Also, no need to apologise about repeating, a lot of things are repetitions of things we've fundamentally said or believed, lol.
I agree that having certain traits will predispose you to certain behaviours in life.
Generally, if you're born talented (in something the world values socially and also offers financial power), the likelihood is that you will be arrogant, narcissistic, etc.
In a sense, traits (talents) are environmental influences because people praise you for it, therefore, that will influence your behaviour. Kind of like being born into a rich family, you will assume money grows on trees, no value for money, and therefore be unable to relate with others - e.g. making a joke about having no money towards the end of the month because you're rich when in reality, most people live that way, but because you don't understand that, you're completely unaware this is actually a sensitive subject for the majority of people.
This is why in Amazon Lily, as you said, Gloriosa couldn't believe Luffy bowed down to save the Gorgon sisters, it's because of this predisposition, people with Conq. are pretty much people born with the highest of talents, therefore, they're usually arrogant, entitled, completely self-serving.
When Gaban says you need to be a king, and as you know, I'm very semantic and into linguistics. Before Gaban says you should wish to be a king, I think what is most important is what he says before that because it is a part of the sentence, otherwise, he'd just have said "You need to be a king", and the other bits would not be mentioned.
Gaban says you're burdened with painful uncertainty, what does that have to do with a king? Or, how is it the opposite of being a king? A king has pride in one's self, a king would believe in himself, and I think that is what Gaban is alluding to here instead of the idea of literally being a king.
Sanji is someone who loathes himself because of his lineage, and I think Gaban can sense this in him, and this is why he's unable to fully tap into his own strength. I don't think Gaban is talking about behaviour in the sense of arrogance or wanting to be the best Swordsman or King of Pirates, I think it's a matter of unwavering self-belief.
Even going as far back as the Baratie, Zeff told Sanji something in Luffy's fight against Don Krieg; Sanji told Luffy to give up, and that it wasn't worth fighting, and Zeff replied saying... it's more important to have no quit in you. Sanji is logical, and he is unlikely to be the sort of person to have this unwavering self-belief - he is someone who has been traumatised in life. If there is something he lacks, I'd say this is it, and this is what is holding him back. Once Sanji learns to accept himself and believe in himself, I think that's what would allow him to use Conq. since he likely has it already.
I'm good, thanks for asking, hope you're well too dude.
Personally, I think since Fishmen do have Haki like Armament and Observation, I'd imagine they have as much likelihood for Conq. as any other race.
Also, no need to apologise about repeating, a lot of things are repetitions of things we've fundamentally said or believed, lol.
I agree that having certain traits will predispose you to certain behaviours in life.
Generally, if you're born talented (in something the world values socially and also offers financial power), the likelihood is that you will be arrogant, narcissistic, etc.
In a sense, traits (talents) are environmental influences because people praise you for it, therefore, that will influence your behaviour. Kind of like being born into a rich family, you will assume money grows on trees, no value for money, and therefore be unable to relate with others - e.g. making a joke about having no money towards the end of the month because you're rich when in reality, most people live that way, but because you don't understand that, you're completely unaware this is actually a sensitive subject for the majority of people.
This is why in Amazon Lily, as you said, Gloriosa couldn't believe Luffy bowed down to save the Gorgon sisters, it's because of this predisposition, people with Conq. are pretty much people born with the highest of talents, therefore, they're usually arrogant, entitled, completely self-serving.
When Gaban says you need to be a king, and as you know, I'm very semantic and into linguistics. Before Gaban says you should wish to be a king, I think what is most important is what he says before that because it is a part of the sentence, otherwise, he'd just have said "You need to be a king", and the other bits would not be mentioned.
Gaban says you're burdened with painful uncertainty, what does that have to do with a king? Or, how is it the opposite of being a king? A king has pride in one's self, a king would believe in himself, and I think that is what Gaban is alluding to here instead of the idea of literally being a king.
Sanji is someone who loathes himself because of his lineage, and I think Gaban can sense this in him, and this is why he's unable to fully tap into his own strength. I don't think Gaban is talking about behaviour in the sense of arrogance or wanting to be the best Swordsman or King of Pirates, I think it's a matter of unwavering self-belief.
Even going as far back as the Baratie, Zeff told Sanji something in Luffy's fight against Don Krieg; Sanji told Luffy to give up, and that it wasn't worth fighting, and Zeff replied saying... it's more important to have no quit in you. Sanji is logical, and he is unlikely to be the sort of person to have this unwavering self-belief - he is someone who has been traumatised in life. If there is something he lacks, I'd say this is it, and this is what is holding him back. Once Sanji learns to accept himself and believe in himself, I think that's what would allow him to use Conq. since he likely has it already.
My reply to the Gaban part would be that I agree with you. It was my interpretation that "disposition of a king" seems to be or seems to include having this unwavering self-belief. Not you actually have to be the king. So yes, agreed!
This belief in oneself is the critical thing for Sanji, at least.
I came to this topic because I wanted to respond to you. Moving it back to Jinbe, Jinbe, to me, doesn't really seem to doubt himself, so if he is going to have Conq in the future, at least he doesn't have uncertainty.
To counter the headline of the topic though. I dont really think Jinbe "deserves" Conq. I think I'm with you on the 50/50 thing.
I think as a fan of power diversity, I would rather he not have, for the sake of seeing unique alternatives to defeating the immortals. But that's really pragmatic reasoning on my part.
To counter the headline of the topic though. I dont really think Jinbe "deserves" Conq. I think I'm with you on the 50/50 thing.
I think as a fan of power diversity, I would rather he not have, for the sake of seeing unique alternatives to defeating the immortals. But that's really pragmatic reasoning on my part.
Yeah I am the same here, and I'd like to keep the monster trio as the heavy hitters. The Grand fleet will make up for Conq. now that they have Yamato, wouldn't be surprised if Momonosuke actually develops it too, he is a grown man after-all, lol. Then Loki if he does become an ally which I think is inevitable. Hajrudin is someone I am thinking will develop it too... as the son of Harald, he is so far outshined by Loki, I think Oda will allow him to gain strength in this arc, I think it's such a good opportunity for him to develop.
Besides the SHGF, I can't imagine Law or Kid are out of the story, they surely would be people who learn to utilise Conq. Law doesn't have it yet, but I can't see him not developing it. Then I think with Sabo, Dragon, there are people who I believe ultimately will ally with the SHs in the final war that I can see as people that will be able to take on the God Knights. Ultimately, I think 3 Conq. users in the crew is fine.
like with anything else, King's haki can be what Oda wants. If he wants it to be genetic, he can make it genetic. If he wants it to be for those that want to conquer, he can do that as well. I'm more annoyed at the fact that Sanji having Conqueror's haki and not Jinbei is somehow offensive to certain people.
Actually, what it seems like to me is that Jinbe having Conqueror’s is what’s offensive to them. I merely suggest it and people come up with all these excuses (using fluff nicknames like wings and monster trios) as if to discredit Jinbe even though he has all this solid credit to his name as much as Sanji and the others have, and that nicknames somehow have more credit to them than actual efforts.
This was my literaly thinking too. The only reason I think its very possible Jinbei will have it is Luffy is supposed to surpass Roger so him having more CoC users in his crew than Roger would make narrative sense. At the end Luffy's true final boss/rival/villain is Imu and he has tons of CoC users on his side so I think Oda can make it work.
From a meta narrative point of view if Oda decides to not give a single Fishman CoC I'd be like bro you spent an entire arc dismanting racism in universe and you gonna do Jinbei the strongest Fishman in the story like that and not give him CoC
There have been many past discussions over this, so I felt to make a thread voicing my view.
In my view, things like “wings” and “monster trios” are irrelevant. Because what matters is that Luffy deserves the strongest forces possible. And given Jinbe’s dedication, he’s as deserving as Sanji is, in my opinion. He is a knight of the sea and former warlord who held back Akainu to save Luffy and fisted a pussy to save Zoro at Egghead. So to downplay Jinbe as if he’s not worthy of Conqueror’s would basically be disrespectful to him.
Agree - but i rather say that - If Zoro and Sanji are the Wings of the Pirate King - Jinbei and Yamato could really be the weapons of Nika - or smtg like that - and my POV is simple - Imu has 5 gurousei ! JoyBoy will have to at least 5 gorousei-like figure ! (AND if we count Loki as a S.H - we already have them - Sanji, Zoro, Jinbe, Yamato, Loki ) for me it's pretty obvious now after all this Imu showdown that this is what Oda is mirroring for the END - so of this groups, the only that DON'T have any CoC displaye is Kinbe - Yamato and Loki are both good at it, Zoro has a lot and sucks at using and Sanji is blocked
omfg you're both equally wrong- we only know two certain things: the capability of unlocking conqueror's haki CAN be genetic, but it does absolutely require the 'disposition of a king'. Until we get a real concrete answer about what CoC actually is Rayleigh's explanation was vague enough that Oda left room for it to not necessarily be some genetic absolute, just that it's more likely for characters whose parents can use it that they too are capable
Agreed. Can is the correct word here and the way CoC is gained needs to be more defined. We know it can come from a line of people as well as skip generations like Hancock. Then you also see randomass people where you have no idea wtf their bloodline is such as Gaban and he has it. And then the way he explains it to Sanji makes it seem like as long as people possess certain dispositions, they can EVENTUALLY get it which was not what we were told at first which is that you're born with it. You either got it or you don't. That should have been the end of it but instead it's now still open ended af.
. He may be wrong, his perspective isn’t dog ish is basically the crux, let’s give each other grace. Oda does write this ish open to interpretation, big underlying premise of the whole story and lore. 
