Spoiler One Piece Chapter 1194 Spoiler Discussion

[costicla]

I wonder if after this battle, Zorro will have surpassed Rayleigh, at leat old Rayleigh.

 

[kkck]

I wonder if after this battle, Zorro will have surpassed Rayleigh, at leat old Rayleigh.

Probably not. He will still probably be a noob when it comes to conqueror haki. On top of that Rayleigh was capable of using armor haki to cause internal damage and observation haki to peek into the future. two skills which zoro has yet to evidence.

 

[costicla]

Probably not. He will still probably be a noob when it comes to conqueror haki. On top of that Rayleigh was capable of using armor haki to cause internal damage and observation haki to peek into the future. two skills which zoro has yet to evidence.

I don't know if his Observation will ever be that strong, that's more of Sanji's thing. Though he most likely has Rayleigh beat in endurance and stamina, at least.

 

[kkck]

I don't know if his Observation will ever be that strong, that's more of Sanji's thing. Though he most likely has Rayleigh beat in endurance and stamina, at least.

At the top tiers we have generally seen that fighters can use most of the advanced applications of each haki type. Rayleigh has displayed all know applications of haki so far and even gaban used foresight. There's also varying levels of skill when it comes to advanced haki so I don't think this is particularly problematic. Zoro needs foresight to duke it out properly with admirals, yonko or mihawk but it doesn't necessarily need to be at the high end of skill among those.

 

[marco1701]

Probably not. He will still probably be a noob when it comes to conqueror haki. On top of that Rayleigh was capable of using armor haki to cause internal damage and observation haki to peek into the future. two skills which zoro has yet to evidence.

When did Rayleigh show that level of observation? I can't remember. In the Rocks's flashback, maybe?

 

[kkck]

When did Rayleigh show that level of observation? I can't remember. In the Rocks's flashback, maybe?

Nah, when he demonstrated haki to luffy before the timeskip. I don't recall the specific point in wano but it was when luffy was talking about how advanced rayleigh's haki was.

Edit: or maybe it was earlier during katakuri's fight that luffy was thinking about this.

 

[animeangryfan4]

so Zoro is at least making it the bandana mode. so now things are truly serious.
Would have been perfect now if they right after this went to Sanji side and saw his trails until he got it, then showed the two wings both defeat teh Hly Knights
but thats rarely how Oda does a fight. And as Sanji must always be the chewtoy, I have a feeling his chapters will be longer.

 

[Mr. Crocodile]

Shit ass writing. No depth, no self reflection. How tf do you want me to believe Zoro knows about CoC, Kaido and King telling him be has it, he even fucking knocked fodders down in Wano using it, and now this and yet Zoro never sought to learn how to do it/trained for it post Wano

Does Oda takes us for kids ? Just give Gear 5 and write your goddamn Looney Tunes manga at this stage

Calm down son. It's been two weeks since Wano.. Also I guess you forgot Rayleigh told luffy that it specifically cannot be directly trained to grow stronger.

CoC grows as the user grows as a person and in combat. It's a direct manifestation of the user's personal growth and spirit. It's like you trolls don't even try..

 

[electricmastro]

Will be interesting to see how Jinbe and Sanji fare after this, since Jinbe is #3 and Sanji is #4 after all.

 

[marco1701]

Nah, when he demonstrated haki to luffy before the timeskip. I don't recall the specific point in wano but it was when luffy was talking about how advanced rayleigh's haki was.

Edit: or maybe it was earlier during katakuri's fight that luffy was thinking about this.

He said only that some of his future enemies could see in the future, but he never demonstrate that himself. Not in the manga, anyway.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

He said only that some of his future enemies could see in the future, but he never demonstrate that himself. Not in the manga, anyway.

I think this is an accurate statement. I remembered it like this as well. Rayleigh is a wealth of knowledge thanks to all his experiences but he hasn't demonstrated future sight in person I'm pretty sure.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Shit ass writing. No depth, no self reflection. How tf do you want me to believe Zoro knows about CoC, Kaido and King telling him be has it, he even fucking knocked fodders down in Wano using it, and now this and yet Zoro never sought to learn how to do it/trained for it post Wano

Does Oda takes us for kids ? Just give Gear 5 and write your goddamn Looney Tunes manga at this stage

Zoro released Haoushoku Haki coating without controlling it exactly like Luffy released uncontrolled Haoushoku Haki blast in Flying Fish Riders ocean base, in Amazon Lily, in Impel Down and in Marineford. It was very clear to me that Zoro didn’t control Haoushoku coating against King. He let all his Haki run out into his swords risking death in the process which also triggered the Haoushoku Haki coating there. Now he is trying to use it at will without going all out and collapsing from it. This doesn’t seem off to me considering 1) that he hasn’t even mastered Haoushoku Haki blast 2) that Luffy who had already learnt how to master Haoushoku Haki blast with Rayleigh didn’t know how to coat HK until he fought Kaido on the rooftop for the second time.

 

[KilgoreTully]

Oda might ease/dehumanise the death by making them shrivel up into bones like Saturn did. I think that would make it seem less like a killing and more of a slaying (as in slaying a monster, like when zoro killed the dragon in punk hazard)

Totally. Going with the themes of the story, where having dreams and goals and hope characterize the "good" side of humanity, a character who is portrayed as gleefully sadistic and potentially already living past his natural life isn't "human" per Oda's ideal definition. Killing Sommers wouldn't "rob him of his dreams" (Oda's greatest sin) because dude doesn't have a code (like Kaido), a mission born from tragic circumstance (Doflamingo), a begrudging respect towards fighting peers (Lucci), or a complicated and as-of-yet unexplored morality (Kizaru).

Zoro doesn't have a problem with killing, we just haven't seen it* because that's Oda's style, and Oda has set Sommers up as an irredeemable monster. "Slay" over "kill" is a great way of putting it, and I think we might see something like Imu delivering the final blow (like with Saturn) for losing.

Maybe even the Imu-Luffy fight gets cut short because Imu senses Sommers and Killingham lose and decides to punish them with his last bit of strength before he has to bounce, or they're next to death and he takes their loaned power back as a power-up for himself.

*Not that it has direct bearing on the manga, but Zoro kills real fast in the live action, and that seems like the kind of thing Oda would have to okay. I think it's safe to say that the Zoro in Oda's head canon, before he has to write a story okay for tweens, is absolutely a killer.

 

[wing_gundam]

Shit ass writing. No depth, no self reflection. How tf do you want me to believe Zoro knows about CoC, Kaido and King telling him be has it, he even fucking knocked fodders down in Wano using it, and now this and yet Zoro never sought to learn how to do it/trained for it post Wano

Does Oda takes us for kids ? Just give Gear 5 and write your goddamn Looney Tunes manga at this stage

I gave Naruto another read through after some years, especially now there's a color manga online, and Kishimoto really had good pacing. Told the whole story in 700 chapters, there wasn't much filler (manga) and a direct linear path of progression. People realized a weakness, trained, some of that was shown and voila. Obv the end goes through crazy power scaling mayham as all mangas do, but comparatively it's much better written.

I still don't know if haki > devil fruit > haki > devil fruit. The levels of haki change every arc to suit power scaling so there's no consistent progression.

and I'm still mad for "genius Oda" to leave so many story lines unfinished - like Zoro's history in Wano, the swords in Wano. Was he really needed in Egghead? he never even used his bandana once. Sure he fought awakened Lucci to show how he's progressed but then awakened Lucci wasn't even worth his time...

 

[Battle Wolf]

One thing that makes me think about what Mihawk said is this: Haki is the power of recognizing your own strength. In other words, the more a person understands how strong they are, the stronger their Haki will be.

Just like Luffy—let’s set aside for a moment the fact that he’s the protagonist—he has always dreamed of becoming the Pirate King. His recognition of his own strength and his own will to become someone superior may have been what awakened his Conqueror’s Haki.

In the same way, Zoro dreams of becoming the greatest swordsman, and that desire, along with his recognition of his own strength, may be what led him to awaken Conqueror’s.

In short, Gaban’s point is that Sanji needs to have more confidence in his own potential. He needs to recognize his own strength and stop underestimating himself. For him to truly awaken and use Conqueror’s Haki, he may first need to see himself as someone capable of standing among the strongest. He is always feeling inferior to Zoro, especially when it comes to their bounties. So, combined with his Germa past and his obsession with women, which often leads him to put himself down, these things may be preventing him from awakening Conqueror’s Haki.

 

[kkck]

I gave Naruto another read through after some years, especially now there's a color manga online, and Kishimoto really had good pacing. Told the whole story in 700 chapters, there wasn't much filler (manga) and a direct linear path of progression. People realized a weakness, trained, some of that was shown and voila. Obv the end goes through crazy power scaling mayham as all mangas do, but comparatively it's much better written.

I still don't know if haki > devil fruit > haki > devil fruit. The levels of haki change every arc to suit power scaling so there's no consistent progression.

and I'm still mad for "genius Oda" to leave so many story lines unfinished - like Zoro's history in Wano, the swords in Wano. Was he really needed in Egghead? he never even used his bandana once. Sure he fought awakened Lucci to show how he's progressed but then awakened Lucci wasn't even worth his time...

Zoro with his king of hell attacks is basically throwing out attacks with sufficient force to give a yonko pause. Zoro was strong enough that lucci actually said stalling a yonko's top executive is good enough for him. If zoro wasn't THAT much of a monster nowadays there's no way lucci's pride would have let him say anything like that. Zoro is most likely walking out of elbaf almost ready to take on mihawk (He will still need more practice with cladding and at least some level of foresight). Since wano zoro just isn't an enemy meant for people who aren't yonko or admirals. That said, I fully agree with you that oda has in no way handled this well. The haki boosts luffy, zoro and now sanji are getting are largely nonsense and unearned.

 

[The Trinity]

Zoro released Haoushoku Haki coating without controlling it exactly like Luffy released uncontrolled Haoushoku Haki blast in Flying Fish Riders ocean base, in Amazon Lily, in Impel Down and in Marineford. It was very clear to me that Zoro didn’t control Haoushoku coating against King. He let all his Haki run out into his swords risking death in the process which also triggered the Haoushoku Haki coating there. Now he is trying to use it at will without going all out and collapsing from it. This doesn’t seem off to me considering 1) that he hasn’t even mastered Haoushoku Haki blast 2) that Luffy who had already learnt how to master Haoushoku Haki blast with Rayleigh didn’t know how to coat HK until he fought Kaido on the rooftop for the second time.

Would it be safe to say the highest form of HK for both Luffy and Zoro, and therefore for any crew member possessing HK, has to be accessed through mortal combat? It seems while the top three can be taught some of the basics, a hard push in battle seems to always take a mortal turn in order to achieve those levels. Just curious. None of what I said is a declaration as much as it is a notice in trend. Could be off here

 

[TitaniumOxide]

One thing that makes me think about what Mihawk said is this: Haki is the power of recognizing your own strength. In other words, the more a person understands how strong they are, the stronger their Haki will be.

Just like Luffy—let’s set aside for a moment the fact that he’s the protagonist—he has always dreamed of becoming the Pirate King. His recognition of his own strength and his own will to become someone superior may have been what awakened his Conqueror’s Haki.

In the same way, Zoro dreams of becoming the greatest swordsman, and that desire, along with his recognition of his own strength, may be what led him to awaken Conqueror’s.

In short, Gaban’s point is that Sanji needs to have more confidence in his own potential. He needs to recognize his own strength and stop underestimating himself. For him to truly awaken and use Conqueror’s Haki, he may first need to see himself as someone capable of standing among the strongest. He is always feeling inferior to Zoro, especially when it comes to their bounties. So, combined with his Germa past and his obsession with women, which often leads him to put himself down, these things may be preventing him from awakening Conqueror’s Haki.

This is all good and all but it just makes the defining reason on how a person can end up with CoC even more murky.

Zoro with his king of hell attacks is basically throwing out attacks with sufficient force to give a yonko pause. Zoro was strong enough that lucci actually said stalling a yonko's top executive is good enough for him. If zoro wasn't THAT much of a monster nowadays there's no way lucci's pride would have let him say anything like that. Zoro is most likely walking out of elbaf almost ready to take on mihawk (He will still need more practice with cladding and at least some level of foresight). Since wano zoro just isn't an enemy meant for people who aren't yonko or admirals. That said, I fully agree with you that oda has in no way handled this well. The haki boosts luffy, zoro and now sanji are getting are largely nonsense and unearned.

I'd say the same for both Zoro and Sanji. Maybe even Jinbe. I think Jinbe and Sanji can both beat the shit outta an awakened Lucci. Sanji can fucking deflect light. Jinbe can just throw enough water to make a df user useless. That fight was just to show how powerful the SHPs really are now.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Zoro defeating a bum thats already been beaten 3 times in this arc alone... Oda really has to move on lol

 

[AmyRose]

Zoro defeating a bum thats already been beaten 3 times in this arc alone... Oda really has to move on lol

Well at least this time it seems like said "bum" will be defeated FOREVER. Good riddance.