Politics France criticizes the USA

miyi

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Article: France: U.S. Image Abroad Hard to Fix

France's foreign minister has the audacity to criticize the USA for it's foreign policy in Iraq.

How dishonest and hypocritical. Because of France's own foreign policies in the past century, the US got involved into two World Wars, the Vietnam War, and now the Iraq war (France is a major arms supplier to Saddam Hussein). Don't pretend to be innocent.

[edit]I meant to address this towards the foreign minister, not France, and not the French people.
 
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mrcongojack

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France criticizing the USA!? I refuse to believe it. France and the USA are as thick as thieves; there has never been two countries as close as France and the United States.

[/sarcasm]

Seriously, how is this news?
 

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Heh, and I remember it was like only yesterday when France's new PM actually praised U.S. for something or other. Guess opinions of the masses won out.

EDIT: Never mind, I was actually thinking of the new French President. And I guess that doesn't really apply to the foreign minister's standing either way, so never mind. I don't think this amounts to earth-breaking news either, though, though it is a bit funny considering France's own history. Still, it's just one country representative commenting on another country's affairs regardless of anybody's past, not a really big deal IMO.
 
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miyi

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wait..this forum is for world-breaking news only? I thought as long as the news are current?

I am sick of world opinion and I want to express mines. Feel free to disagree.

more on France, from 2003

(I'll add more articles when I get back next week after exams)
 
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If you're sick of world opinion, best to just avoid it then XD It did sound like you had more of a bone to pick in this thread than usual. Nowadays I'm kinda used to the rest of the world bashing U.S. for something or other, what would be news to me is other countries actually agreeing with what we're doing.
 

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But I only want to offer a different perspective. This forum, afterall, is about learning about different parts of the world. If anyone wishes to disagree, I welcome dialog.

In order to understand the Iraq foreign policy, it is important to become familiar with the background of the Middle East in the 20th Century to help debunk some of the myths and mis-information that tends to portray the United States as some "evil empire". The culprits are many, which includes Britain, France, Russia, and the United States (China also plays a part).

And to put everything in perspective, I will include below a lecture given by my Middle Eastern Political Science Professor, Dr. Kassem Nabulsi, and I just paraphrased his words….I may have elaborated towards the end (the conclusion), but the intellectual property is credited to him.





There are 3 events that shaped the modern borders of the Middle East as we know it today. These three events are the following: the Henry McMahon-Hussein bin Ali Correspondence, the Sykes-Picot Agreement, and the Balfour Declaration.


The first event - Henry McMahon-Hussein bin Ali Correspondence:

Notes:

- in 1908, the last Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, Sultan Abdul Hamid, appointed Sharif Hussein bin Ali as the Emir of Mecca.

- Sharif Hussein bin Ali was appointed the Emir of Mecca. An Emir is a prestigious Arab Islamic position in the Ottoman Empire, but it’s not an administrative position. The Sharif is the equivalent of a nobleman in English terms, and Sharif Hussein was chosen for this Emir position because he is a descendant of the prophet Muhammad from the clan of Hashim (which is related to the clan of Quraysh, which Muhammad belonged to). Being an Emir of Mecca is significant, because Mecca is the Holiest City in Islam, along with Medina (the two holiest cities). Being an Emir of Mecca gives him a slightly autonomous position from the Ottoman Empire, and his duty was to ensure the safety of pilgrimage to these holy cities.

- Sir Henry McMahon was the British High Commisioner in Egypt

- In 1915, Sharif Hussein, out of personal ambitions, made the initiative to contact McMahon of Egypt and they exchanged letters. Sharif Hussein detected prophetically that the future of the Ottoman Empire is doubtful, and saw that it is weakening. By 1915, the Ottoman Empire have for the past 400 years, controlled most of the Middle East, although it lost territories in the Balkans (South East Europe) and by this point, Ottoman rule is struggling to sustain their fragile hold of their empire. Also note, that during this time, there was yet no grasp of the notion of “self-national-identification”. The Ottoman subjects identified themselves firstly as Muslims, secondly as Ottomans, but no such thing as national identities. Moreover, the Ottoman Empire at this point had no official, or nationally recognized territorial borders.
In these letters between McMahon and Sharif Hussein, the Sharif told McMahon that he is willing to stage an uprising with the Ottoman Empire, and in exchange, he wanted Great Britain to ensure that he’ll be given control of independent Arab States within territories in which the inhabitants were mostly Arab speaking peoples.


There were a total of 10 letters in these exchanges. The first letter argued to exclude Egypt because the Sharif considered Egypt as not part of a purely Arabic territory.

The thorniest issue in these letters were concerning the frontiers demanded by the Sharif, which included the entire Arabian Peninsula, the provinces of Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq (basically, the Levant territories). These provinces were mostly Arabic speaking territories.

Note: Palestine at this point never existed as an independent territory or entity; it has always been a part of Greater Syria, which included Lebanon and Palestine.

He also demanded the inclusion of Iraq (again, at this point, there was yet no official “Iraq”, he was merely referring to the area now known as modern Iraq, which is basically the territories roughly around the Euphrates and Tigris rivers.)

It is also important to note that as Sharif of the Ottoman Empire, it was he who declared earlier of “Jihad” against the Triple Entente (the alliance between Great Britain, France, and Russia), but as we know, behind closed doors, he is secretly exchanging letters with Great Britain’s McMahon, and these letter exchanges sharply contradicted with his Jihad declaration of earlier.

These letters obviously pleased McMahon, because this served as a counterbalance to the Ottoman’s Jihad against them, and knowing that he had a secret alliance with an enemy in Sharif Hussein.

McMahon was unequivocally aware that he couldn’t thoroughly fulfill and deliver a guarantee to give the demanded territories to Sharif Hussein.

Subsequently, the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence is summarized as follows:

The districts, or regions west of Palestine couldn’t be promised; the region of Palestine will thus be further negotiated only after the War (World War I).


Both Britain and the Sharif will later have conflicting interpretations of these agreements.


The Sharif cleverly began a propaganda in 1916 that basically says the following:

We will liberate the caliph (Abdul Hamid) and defend the caliph from infidels from the CUP

Note: the CUP stands for: the Committee of Union and Progress, also known as the “Young Turks”, which is a revolutionary movement who attempted to abolish the Ottoman caliphate and reform Turkey; in fact, they succeeded later on.)

This propaganda was designed to garner support from Arabs to rebel, and so in 1916, a rebellion took place. The result of these rebellions was that Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine were successfully invaded by the Arabs, securing a unified Arab coalition that claimed independence from the ruling Ottoman Turks.


Second Event - Sykes-Picot Agreement

During World War I, the Triple Entente has signed a series of agreements designed to carve out “spheres of influence” to be determined after their victory of WWI. These were designed to protect the interests of Great Britain and it’s allies (includes France and Russia). Without Russia’s presence during the signing of the agreements, but with their consent, the agreement was signed in May, 1916.

These letters were designed for the purposes of dismantling the Ottoman Empire, after the war.

In these letters, Great Britain promised the French that they’ll have direct control of Syria (which includes the regions West of Palestine).

These agreements with the French utterly contradicts with Britain’s promise made to the Sharif. Britain was cleverly making these secret strategies to secure their self-interests).

Note: these letters were again clandestine agreements.

Vladimir Lenin of Russia will later publically deny any involvement in these secret agreements, although they secretly consented to it.

Great Britain and France, subsequently carved out, or “dismantled” (or dismembered, however you want to phrase it), the post-Ottoman territories between them, giving Syria to the French (which includes West Palestine), and Great Britain claiming the territories we now know as Iraq.

Both Britain and France also reserved a hold of Palestine because, as we know, Jerusalem is a Holy City for both.

Side note: when Rome in 70 AD expelled the Jews in Jerusalem, they renamed this region as Palestine as an attempt to erase the memory of Jewish memory in that region.

Yet again, we will learn that the Sykes-Picot Agreement will contradict a third event…


Third Event - the Balfour Declaration

This letter to Lord Rothschild, by the British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour, was aimed at Jewish support for the Allies in the First World War. The letter, known as the "Balfour Declaration" became the basis movement to create a Jewish state in Palestine. The letter was published a week later in The Times (London) of London

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild:

I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's
Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:

His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge
of the Zionist Federation.

Yours,
Arthur James Balfour
(Source: from Internet Modern History Sourcebook)

As quoted above, this is a Letter from the Foreign Minister of Great Britain, Arthur Balfour, to Lord Rothschild (who is a prominent Zionist British Leader).

In sum, this letter essentially declares that Great Britain will approve of the creation of the “State of Israel” in Palestine, and just to rephrase the letter again, this is what it says:

[1] that Britain looks favorably of the establishment of the State of Israel.
[2] Britain will use everything in their capacity to achieve this goal.
[3] to ensure that the religious and civil rights of the people in the region of Palestine are protected.
[4] That the civil and political status of Jews in the World should not be violated according to this declaration.



Summary

[1] Great Britain promised Sharif Hussein an independent Arab State.
[2] Britain and France both carved out Iraq (British Mandate) and Syria (French Mandate) between them both.
[3] Britain carved out Palestine for the Jews (which violated the French Mandate).

Great Britain betrayed Sharif Hussein, the French, and also the Jews!


Once the Arab Revolt of 1916 took place, Sharif Hussein’s son, Faisal, declared himself King of Syria, as what was promised by Britain to his father.

France expelled King Faisal and massacred his forces, because according to the French, they were promised by Great Britain, under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, that Syria was under their mandate.

Faisal will later rule Iraq, he’s happy, the French are happy because they’ll get to rule Syria.

Amir (Prince) Abdullah (Faisal’s brother, and the son of Sharif Hussein), will lead tribal forces from al-Hejaz (the Western Coast of the Arabian Peninsula) towards the region that is today modern Jordan.

Great Britain carves out a place for Abdullah called Trans-Jordan and makes him King of Trans-Jordan.

Again, this betrays the French, because part of Syria is taken as a result of this partition, and it also betrays the Jews, because part of Palestine is also taken.

Great Britain’s foreign policy this whole time, can be described as a policy that aims to appease everyone (the Arabs, France, and the Jews), while at the same time, Britain is cleverly finding ways to secure their national self-interests, and subsequently everyone is appeased but not altogether happy.

Great Britain neglected the fact that the people inhabiting these carved out regions did not at all get along with each other, because these inhabitants are divided along sectarian lines, and they have been this way for centuries.

In 1917, Great Britain imposes the notion of “national identities”, hence the creation of what are now:

Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Palestine (Jerusalem), and Iraq.


Great Britain will impose this notion of “national borders”, yet in the process, that religion and the autonomy of the indigenous inhabitants all be respected.

None of these provinces, up to this day, recognize each other.
For example: Syria does not recognize Lebanon today. Lebanon is not allowed to have an embassy in Syria, and vice versa.


Conclusion

The turmoil in the Middle East today can be traced back to the mess that Britain and France helped create. Once the United States entered the fray, it too, became involved and contributed to the worsening of the situation in the Middle East. But the fact of the matter is that the United States did not initiate these problems, and is not the only country that is guilty.

Today, the United States is unfairly blamed for all problems in the Middle East, as if to say that we deserved the attacks of 9/11. I’d like to see some evidence.

I wish I could have covered the events of post-World War I, but perhaps I’ll work on that some other time. America and Europe’s foreign policy in the Middle East, for most of the 20th Century, has always been about securing each other’s self-national interests, in some cases, at the expense of morality.

My point here is that France played a part in this mess. The United States are now stuck in a predicament of trying to amend the situation, although not without it’s flaws, since the Iraq War is a mess in and of itself.

I appreciate constructive criticism from France, but the New York Times article above, coming from the Foreign Minister, seems to give the impression as if to say that France has no wrongdoing, and that somehow, it is the United State’s fault, alone, that America and Europe’s image has faltered. Let’s all be honest here, and share some blame, before we begin to make bold criticisms and point fingers.
 

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That's a good summary as any I suppose. Yes, I read about Britain and France's interference as well back when they still dreamed about having "world empires." They certainly had a big hand in creating the Middle East as we know it - they even made whoever they wanted the kings of these countries, but in actuality they just wanted them as figureheads.

I'd like to say though that there are quite a few more events that led to the borders of the Middle East as we know them than just three of these statements. (They were constantly shifting due to war, I mean.) For example, Israel was in constant danger of losing their territory despite promises made to them by Britain and their neighbors, including the PLO, and there were all kinds of territorial wars between Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and even sometimes Jordan (Israel's closest ally there).

The King of Egypt (or was it President?) had a huge hand in helping Israel's survival by recognizing the state too, something that went against the wishes of rest of the Arab nation. Guy even got a Nobel Prize for it.

The conflict between Iraq and Iran is complicated enough on its own merit, and also how Hussein came in power, did a great job at first of building Iraq into a strong country, then lost everything after the war, and became desperate, ie. invading Kuwait and initating the Gulf War.

I could go on but I'm afraid my memory isn't the best on matters such as this and I might make a fool of myself, so I guess I should stop at that. Let's just say that I actually admire Israel very much after hearing about all the challenges they've had just in actually keeping their borders secure. They've ever had to acquiese to deals to minimize territory... all the lands they've actually taken from Egypt and other countries in successful wars... promised Palestine a large chunk of their land (Palestine would refuse, refuse, refuse) all in hopes of gaining some recognition, but they *still* haven't gotten much of a good deal.

P.S. Just to be fair, America deserves part of the blame as well. We've had Presidents who hated to deal with the Israelis, too, and tried to be buddies with the Arabs instead. But we've also had Presidents who helped Israel with weapons as well, although by doing so, they had to send weapons to the Arabs too in order to maintain their neutrality. Not sure if this was ever proved but we may have sent Israel more weapons in secret though.

Also, Britain did in the end, help Israel a huge deal in some of their wars.
 
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◆ T.D.A ◆

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its unfair that everyone feels sorry for israel but not palestine


america send weapons which result in innocent people dying
 
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Hey, I'd feel more sorry for Palestine if they actually cared a thing about their own refugees. Only Israel and Jordan to this date will take Palestine's own people in.
 

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when referring to palestine you should refer to the average palestine and not the government, hamas etc.

somethings that palestinians do are bad like suicide bombs, etc but the israeli troops, some of them kill little children, without mercy

isreale took over palestine, they could have shared more equally but no, now its just a mess.
 

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@Gold Knight:

yes, of course, there are more events that led to the even greater mess that we now know in the Middle East. I have only covered 1908-1920s, and I haven't even reached the "meat" of the problem yet. Wait until I discuss WWI-1948, the Arab-Israeli conflict, Iran-Iraq War, Afghan-Soviet war, Saddam's Anfal campaign in which he used Biochemical weapons against his own people, the Kurds (uhmm....wait, he does not have WMDs! how is that possible!?), the Persian Gulf War, the terrorist attacks by Osama bin Laden against the United States following the collapse of the Soviets, leading up to 9/11, and how we got involved in Afghanistan and Iraq War (in which 70% of the Senators approved at the time, and when the war became unpopular, they all blamed intelligence and the warmongering of the Bush administration).

T.D.A. said:
its unfair that everyone feels sorry for israel but not palestine
To be fair, the Palestinians and Israelis are both committing atrocities on each other, and no side benefit when they continue to kill each other.

Bush is trying to moderate a peace deal now, and just recently Hamas launches missile attacks on Israel. Hamas will do anything possible to prevent the further existence of the Israel state, and are not willing to compromise.

You cannot say that Bush does not sympathize for the Palestine people, because he is the first President to have ever declared that he will recognize the creation of the Palestinian State, even before the Iraq War began.

We all know that the militant factions in Palestine, and those that support them, are using and exploiting their own people. They deliberately ensure that their own people are vulnerable to Israeli attacks, so they can claim that Israeli people are responsible. Anything to built up hatred to support their cause.

anyway, I'll try to discuss these things because I think it is important to know the facts and the history of the Middle East and its relation with the West, because there's so much mis-information spread throughout the media and conspiracy theories that are despicable. At one point in my life, I was actually entertaining the movie "Loose Change", and thankfully I did my own research and was the reason I was inspired to learn more about the Middle East region. I'll continue to update this thread over the next few months.
 
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pjboom

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Sorry but many europe countries have shown their support to the palestin people.
Imagine that a foreign country, as france for example decide that the jews should have their own country, and that will be the USA.
And suplying israel with warmachinery won't end the conflict.
 

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I think maybe we need to bring back freedom fries, that'll show em!
 

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I think maybe we need to bring back freedom fries, that'll show em!
^^

On bashing USA topic,

anyway.. i really like this random quote "never tell anyone your problem, since 20% of the people you talk to will not care, the other 80% glad that you have that problem.."

well, if we realized that everything we do is base on ourselves.. then do what we got to do and ignore all criticizes.. though take the full consequences for it...

But maybe we did have reasons to be in Iraq, but right now there no longer any reasons.. and after the next election, I bet we would pull out if Mccain is not elected..
 

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But maybe we did have reasons to be in Iraq, but right now there no longer any reasons.. and after the next election, I bet we would pull out if Mccain is not elected..



link ---> But we did have a reason.



link --->
Violence in Iraq since 2007 has dropped drastically, to roughly about 80 percent.





If we pull out now (some brigades will be gradually pulled out, btw), then all of this gain will be potentially reversed, according to military experts in charge of command in Iraq.


Think about that for a minute. For the safety of Americans, to Iraqis, and to the world, do you really want to withdraw now, especially now that we are making significant gains?


Tell me why Democrats are so against this war?

It's because it's been their mantra from the very beginning, and for them to concede now, will be to admit defeat.

Despite overwhelming evidence of progress in Iraq, Democrats are for some odd reason still furious with the Bush administration.

Did you watch the Senate hearings when they questioned General Patreus and Ambassador Crocker? Democrats were for the most part in denial.

It is mind-boggling...facts are no longer reliable nowadays, even if it's staring you right in the eye. We now rely on the liberal media for our [mis]information.
 

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You should know, it hard to disagree with you since you are very logical...

what do other countries proposed? I do not believe that the USA and Great Britain should be a major responsible for Iraq.. If it affect the world, then let the world be responsible. we would have to withdraw eventually and worry more about the home front first ...

How long can we play the role of parent? I don't know why i like to use vietnam as an example.. until this day vietnam had progess greatly from its former past and yet the American (who withdraw) still criticize this and that about human right and stuff without giving time for more progressing.. Maybe Iraq now is the same, the next 5 years maybe chaos and alot of crititism, but after that will be rebuild, and then a new sense of pride for the iraqi..

As for the future Iraq, we should aid the Iraqi that we aiding now by other means.. let them have the major say in this.. and the American people also..
 

miyi

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You should know, it hard to disagree with you since you are very logical...

what do other countries proposed? I do not believe that the USA and Great Britain should be a major responsible for Iraq.. If it affect the world, then let the world be responsible. we would have to withdraw eventually and worry more about the home front first ...

How long can we play the role of parent? I don't know why i like to use vietnam as an example.. until this day vietnam had progess greatly from its former past and yet the American (who withdraw) still criticize this and that about human right and stuff without giving time for more progressing.. Maybe Iraq now is the same, the next 5 years maybe chaos and alot of crititism, but after that will be rebuild, and then a new sense of pride for the iraqi..

As for the future Iraq, we should aid the Iraqi that we aiding now by other means.. let them have the major say in this.. and the American people also..
To be perfectly honest, I don't know what is the most effective strategy we can take on Iraq.

With so much tribalism and political division in that country, not to mention the religious divide between Sunni and Shia, plus Al-Qaida in Iraq and Iran and other State-terrorist-sponsors --- all of these different aspects are all contributing to undermine US efforts at stabilization and reconstruction in post-war Iraq.

We've tried different strategies, none of them worked initially...but we changed our strategy since...and it seems to me that it has worked, dramatically.

A lot of people have different views about this. Some experts think that this current success is only temporary, and in fact will not last. Some say it is a result of "ethnic cleansing" and that there's no one left to kill....or something to that effect. Some attribute the progress due to Moqtada el-Sadr's cease-fire, and the counterinsurgents turning against Al-Qaida in Iraq.

The fact remains, though, that there are still tribal differences and sectarian conflict, and I'm not going to lie to you. The fact that they are not fighting that much with each other anymore is because they are under a fragile truce between their enemies, thanks to USA doing much of the brokering and peace-making. But these truces, are only a fragile one, and can be easily reversed if something goes wrong. Which is why we need to be there, to make sure nothing goes wrong....until they can all trust each other...which might take a few generations, who knows.

I don't know if you know this, but the primary reason Iraq is in such a mess today is due to Britain and France's colonialism, in which they carved out Iraq for their own selfish interests, neglecting the fact that the country they are creating, and the borders they have arbitrarily drawn, will put rivaling indigenous inhabitants which have for the most part of their histories, haven't gotten along, live with each other.

When Saddam took power in the 70's, these post-colonialism sectarian, rival, and religious division is further exacerbated....you know why?

Saddam intended to control all the tribalism, sectarian, religious, and race, under terror.

He killed anyone who opposed his rule, used terror to deter.

In effect, all this built up tribal sectarian racial and religious differences are further made worse under his rule, and it was only a matter of time before it all exploded, especially once Saddam was not in power.

I don't know what we can do at this point, because there's so much distrust. It might take a few generations before Iraq will become peaceful again.

But we have an even bigger problem. The reason we need to stay in Iraq is because we cannot afford to get the situation there to get worse.

Al Qaida, as you know, has used Iraq as their base to create further havoc for us. They're main goal is to make Iraq ungovernable.

We cannot let this happen, because if we do, we will only embolden Al-Qaida's spirits. It will give them confidence, and they will take control of Iraq. And if they win in Iraq and think they have defeated us in Iraq, this will only further embolden them to prey on other countries and spread their jihadism (their Islam expansionist goals).

There is an ideological war going on here that you must realize: Ours is Democracy; Al Qaida is universal Islamic rule.

they think that in order to conquer the world under Islam is through the sword, and according to extremists like Osama bin Laden, he doesn't care about innocent people. For him, anyone who supports the enemy, even his fellow Iraqi Muslims, are "apostates" (kinda like heretics Muslims).

So we do have a reason to stay there, now more than ever, because Al Qaida will do everything in their power to disrupt our overall goals of spreading the ideals of Democracy.

To be perfectly honest, I think we do need more help from other countries in post-War Iraq. We are getting them, but I think it isn't enough. A lot of the countries have withdrawn their troops, some thinking they've already fulfilled their mission, and some others were pressured by anti-war activists at home to do so, and then some others pressured by terrorists threatening their own homes.

So if you're suggesting for us to ask more active participation from other countries, we do, but currently most have already withdrawn their troops.

We've seen undeniable progress in the political process, in the economic sector, and in the security side, as well. According to the reports made by General Patraeus and Ambassador Crocker, Iraq has met all 12 of its 18 proposed benchmarks, and 5 of them are still underway, while only 1 is stalled.

For me, I think that is progress, wouldn't you think so?

So we've started out in Iraq with a very poor strategy, and we probably could have avoided these initial mistakes.

I fault VP Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld for this.

But after that, we've changed our strategy 180 degrees, and the results are in our favor, as you can see.

I support a phased withdrawal, but so long as the military experts say it's safe to do so.

But what I do not support is complete withdrawal, which is what some very far left-leaning Democrats want (i.e. Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi, and possibly even Hillary Clinton).

If we do that, think of the potential repercussions for that.........Al Qaida will regain their control of the region, and what do you think they'll do to the Iraqi people?

For them, it will not matter if Iraqi's kill each other...Al Qaida will make Iraq so ungovernable, to the point where they will step in and assume control....and who know's what kind of government they will install there......I'm sure it's Islamic, but it's not the kind of Islam that is religiously tolerant (not the kind of Islam the prophet would have agreed to). It's an absolute Islam that means we in the West are all treated as infidels and should be killed by the sword. Think of that, for a minute. If they had nuclear weapons, Osama will no doubt use them.

That is what we're dealing with here. This isn't Vietnam....it's a completely different scenario.


For further resources, visit these links:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32105.pdf

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/933bmtiu.asp?pg=1
 

Vampire_Fanatic

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we got involved in Vietnam of our own accord, our stupid policy of containment is what happened....
 

weixiaobao

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miyi, i bet you plan all your lessons in class in this same manner ^^ (thoroughly with details and reasons)

and maybe perhaps we are too nice.. if we once round up some of these terrorists and let the iraqi decided on their fate (probably death sentence) and then we do public hanging or something so that:

1) we rally the public since we basically did what the people want ..
2) to warn our enemy

and then use propaganda through education (just like the terrorists did) to make terrorists are the worst of enemy and make the young scare like we did with education on drugs.. and make them hate it.. like education against communist and the Red scare..

It is the struggle between two belief (one or both can be absolute) that creating chaos.. because even if the so call terrorist win.. and all their enemy die out.. there would be peace under this so call universal Islamic since there is no opposition forces ..

Perhaps we should be even harder on them and taking the initiative and kill all these terrorists out right..

wow, i sound like a republican and an extremist ..
 
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