Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2014] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 7

[Maxy Barnard]

It was the first time I saw someone who contested TOC nature as a ranking though.

The TOC system continues to only vaguely reflect both popularity and editorial support for a title, so people can twist it as they want, as it's flexible and indefinite enough to suit their needs.

Really as long as no-one treats it as like god-given gospel, the ABSOLUTE DEFINITIVE MARKER OF HOW A SERIES IS DOING.... As long as no-one treats it that strictly, no-one's super wrong

 

[Leoat12]

Top series makes success and bottom series are cancelled, that's what we have to know about the TOC. It works perfectly with this puporse, like a clock.

 

[Unok]

Out of curiosity of how the "monstrous promoted by Jump" Toriko compares to the "pathetic" promotion of other regular series, I went and counted covers and color pages. I do not guarantee it's fully correct as I'm sleepy and may have made a mistake somewhere.

By the number of color pages from Issue 1 to 52 for 2014:
1. Shokugeki no Souma: Covers 2, Colors 13
2. Nisekoi: Covers 1, Colors 13 (1 full color chapter)
3. Hq!!: Covers 2, Colors 12
4. Assassination Classroom: Covers 3, Colors 9 (one of the covers didn't had color with it)
5. Kuroko no Basket: Covers 3, Colors 9
6. Gintama: Covers 2, Colors 8
7. Naruto: Covers 3, Colors 7 (1 full color chapter)
8. World Trigger: Covers 3, Colors 7
9. Hinomaru Zumou: Covers 2, Colors 7
10. Bleach: Covers 1, Colors 7
11. One Piece: Covers 2, Colors 6
12. Boku no Hero Academia: Covers 1, Colors 6
12. PSI Kusuo Saiki: Covers 1, Colors 6
14. Isobe Isobee Monogatari: Colors 6
15. Toriko: Covers 2, Colors 4
16. Illegal Rare: Covers 1, Colors 4
17. Soul Catcher(S): Colors 3
18. Iron Knight: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. iShoujo: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. Stealth Symphony: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. Tokyo Wonder Boys: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. Mitsukubi Condor: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. Yoakemono: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. Judos: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. Hi-Fi Cluster: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. Sporting Salt: Covers 1, Colors 2
18. Takujou no Ageha: Covers 1, Colors 2
28. Beelzebub: Colors 2
29. Kochikame: Covers 1, Colors 1
29. E-Robot: Covers 1, Colors 1
31. Hunter x Hunter: Colors 1
32. Koi no Cupid Yakeno Harajin: Colors 0

Apperantly, there are 14 series that are better promoted than Toriko. Toriko manages to beat new series that got cancelled or series that ended (like Beelzebub, moved Soul CatcherS). Actual regular that it "beat" was Kochikame, which is typically not promoted at all. Illegal Rare if it was given more time, probably would get more color pages too. So extracting the new and/or cancelled series, and counting only those series that spend majority of the time in Jump this year and not leaving ~half way, it results that Toriko was the WORST promoted series (with the exception of Kochikame which is a special case either way).

 

[Eru13]

Toriko's "monstrous" promotion wasn't this year, it was like that until the anime ended, but after that it's been kinda normal for the standards of an over 200k selling series

The only series in the current lineup that were "monstrously" promoted this year (and maybe didn't deserve so much) would be World Trigger and Hinomaru Zumou, and then again, WT's color pages were mostly to promote the anime so I'm not sure you could call it that huge

 

[Leoat12]

I was ready to complain because Nisekoi was without CPs for more than 8 weeks (something like that, I'm without my spreadsheet here) before this week CP. I'm a spoiled child.
Also, I really thought that Shokugeki no Soma was getting too few CPs.... It's the wonderful power of statistics for you...

PS: World Trigger is above One Piece! WT is the next One Piece!

 

[Unok]

Toriko's "monstrous" promotion wasn't this year, it was like that until the anime ended, but after that it's been kinda normal for the standards of an over 200k selling series

The only series in the current lineup that were "monstrously" promoted this year (and maybe didn't deserve so much) would be World Trigger and Hinomaru Zumou, and then again, WT's color pages were mostly to promote the anime so I'm not sure you could call it that huge

If you are saying that WT's color pages are mostly to promote the anime and that's "not that huge" promotion. Then you have to think that Toriko's promotion was due to manga anniversary, new season anniversary, new games (3-4 games), new movie (2 total movies), card games, etc. So Toriko's color pages were mostly to promote or celebrate the many things it had. Before that I mentioned Bleach, which for the same period didn't had such things to celebrate, but got more CPs. So if you "excuse" WT's CPs with that, then you should excuse Toriko ones too, while the anime ran. WT's anime was announced in end of May (Issue 27). It got 3 CPs after that (Issue 27, 28 & 44), and it had 4 CPs before that (Issue 1, 10, 15 & 21), so it's not mostly due to the anime. I'm not denying that Toriko had more color pages 1-2 years ago, but it also had lots of stuff to celebrate and they weren't given for nothing like some people were implementing in the past and are still doing it.

My comments came because there are still people saying how much Toriko is still promoted, which is not truth.



Leoat12: lol, yeah you seems spoiled by the lot of CPs it received XD I'm not enjoying the series you mentioned, and it's disappointing for me to seeing them getting CPs all the time, while other series I enjoy getting less, but it's only natural. One year some series gets more attention, then the next year others.

 

[Leoat12]

The main puporse of the CP was to promote the manga. lol
If you come with the excuse that CPs to promote the series in any way (anime, drama CD, etc) is not valid in the sum, every series will have zero valid CPs. lol

Leoat12: lol, yeah you seems spoiled by the lot of CPs it received XD I'm not enjoying the series you mentioned, and it's disappointing for me to seeing them getting CPs all the time, while other series I enjoy getting less, but it's only natural. One year some series gets more attention, then the next year others.

Yes, compain that a given series is getting too much color pages because you don't like it is pointless. Enjoy and let other people enjoy as well.

Jump is really focusing on new successes now, they get almost all CPs lately.

 

[BobLeNolife]

The Toriko promotion by the Jump pretty much ended with the rises of the "New Power Generation". It's meaningless to use data from 2014 to deny the existence of that promotion which happened between 2011 and 2012.

 

[Unok]

Yes, compain that a given series is getting too much color pages because you don't like it is pointless. Enjoy and let other people enjoy as well.

Jump is really focusing on new successes now, they get almost all CPs lately.

Yup, that's why I'm not here each week commenting how a series I don't enjoy gets promoted and trying to prove it's not doing well, in annoyance due to series I like not getting that much attention. For me it's important a series I enjoy to continue enjoying me, ToC positions and sales doesn't matter. There is train for every series. It's just from time to time it's gets too much annoying seeing people trying to badmouth something for no particular reason than hate.



BobLeNolife:
Like I said, I'm not denying the attention it got before (but it was deserved, it was doing great (the anime was announced during Mellow Cola Arc, where Zebra appearance brought lots of hype for the series) and it was getting bunch of new stuff all the time). But RIGHT NOW, a user commented and I cited him, that Toriko was getting "monstrous promoted by Jump", that's why I gave 2014 year statistics to prove otherwise, that Toriko is not "monstrously promoted" right now as claimed and is in fact WORST promoted series this year. I wasn't even trying to prove anything for 2011-2012... What's the point in using 2011-2012 data to prove this years case?

---------- Post added at 05:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 AM ----------

So, due to people keep commenting 2011-2012 Toriko "promotion", like it's the most promoted or in top 3 promoted series in those years, I bothered to go and collect number of color pages for regular series, ignoring the series that got cancelled relatively quickly.

2013:
1. Hq!!: C 2, CP 14
2. Shokugeki no Souma: C 2, CP 12
3. Toriko: C 5, CP 11
4. Nisekoi: C 3, CP 11
5. One Piece: C 9, CP 10
6. Kuroko no Basket: C 4, CP 10
7. Assassination Classroom: C 3, CP 9
8. PSI Kusuo Saiki: C 1, CP 8
9. Gintama: C 2, CP 7
10. World Trigger: C 1, CP 7
11. Beelzebub: C 1, CP 5
11. Bleach: C 1, CP 5
12. Naruto: C 2 , CP 4
13. Isobe Isobee Monogatari: C 1, CP 3
14. Soul Catcher(S): C 1, CP 3
15. Medaka Box: CP 3
16. Kochikame: C 1, CP 1


2012:
1. Kuroko no Basket: C 2, CP 13
2. Medaka Box: C 3, CP 12
3. Hq!!: C 2, CP 10
4. Reborn: CP 10
5. Bleach: C 3, CP 9
6. Beelzebub: C 2, CP 9
6. Nisekoi: C 2,CP 9
8. PSI Kusuo Saiki: C 2, CP 8
9. Toriko: C 3, CP 7
10. Naruto: C 6, CP 6
11. Kurogane: CP 6
12. One Piece: C 3, CP 5
13. Assassination Classroom: C 2, CP 5
14. Bakuman: C 1, CP 5
15. Nurarihyon: CP 5
16. Sket Dance: C 3, CP 4
17. Kochikame: C 1, CP 4
18. Magico: CP 2
19. Shokugeki no Souma: C 1, CP 1
20. Gintama: C 2

2011:
1. Kochikame: CP 14
2. Bleach: CP 12
3. Beelzebub: CP 11
4. Gintama: CP 9
4. Sket Dance: CP 9
4. Toriko: CP 9
7. Bakuman: CP 8
7. Medaka Box: CP 8
7. Reborn: CP 8
10. One Piece: CP 7
11. Magico: CP 6
11. Nurarihyon: CP 6
11. enigma: CP 6
14. Kuroko no Basket: CP 5
15. Naruto: CP 4
16. Nisekoi: CP 2

As most opinions are, Toriko was heavenly promoted in 2011-2012. But it's not so much as everyone was labelling it. It sure was though, just like other popular and high selling series, but not one of the top promoted series. 2011 got additional CPs due to the anime and hype from Zebra, as it was doing good in the ToC for his arc. In 2012 ~half the CPs came from anniversaries/announcements/celebrations. His most promoted year was 2013 (which no one was referring to). That year it was the Cooking Festival arc, which was highly popular and the series spend most of the year in top 5 and often in top 3. Due to that got more color pages + those from anniversaries/announcements/celebrations, it ended with higher amount of CPs and promotion. Beelzebub also got anime in 2011 and got more CP, doesn't that make it more promoted than Toriko? But everyone talks how toriko was promoted, like it was the only thing getting promoted. And if that was the case, how did other series ended with more CP?

What I'm trying to say is: yes, Toriko was promoted, just like every other series is promoted, not that "monstrous" more than the other series like people often try to implement.

 

[conankudo]

Out of curiosity of how the "monstrous promoted by Jump" Toriko compares to the "pathetic" promotion of other regular series, I went and counted covers and color pages. I do not guarantee it's fully correct as I'm sleepy and may have made a mistake somewhere.

This list is not correct at all.
You should be aware, the TOCs posted in here are not always reliable. I remember at least two posts about the TOC this year which accidently mixed up positions and colour pages

 

[Bigivelfhq]

This list is not correct at all.
You should be aware, the TOCs posted in here are not always reliable. I remember at least two posts about the TOC this year which accidently mixed up positions and colour pages

I don't know if Unok is looking in the right place or not, but if anybody wants to confirm, look in this Weekly Shonen Jump TOC database -> http://weeklyjump.livejournal.com/

I for one also don't see this Monstrous promotion Toriko had that people talk all the time.

 

[Stark700]

In Issue 45 is not year
And not compared 1 series without anime and averagensales (WT) with a series with good sales and monstruous promotion by Sj (toriko).

He doesn't appear to be an English speaker, so it may have come out a little strange sounding, but he may have been referring to their respective starts.

When Toriko debuted, it got the lead color and cover for #25 in 2008.
In #26 (chapter 2), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color.
In #30 (chapter 6), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color again.
In #36 (chapter 12), it got cover and lead color.

http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0830.html
http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0836.html

This is the initial monstrous promotion that Toriko received at its start.

 

[James Rye]

He doesn't appear to be an English speaker, so it may have come out a little strange sounding, but he may have been referring to their respective starts.

When Toriko debuted, it got the lead color and cover for #25 in 2008.
In #26 (chapter 2), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color.
In #30 (chapter 6), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color again.
In #36 (chapter 12), it got cover and lead color.

http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0830.html
http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0836.html

This is the initial monstrous promotion that Toriko received at its start.

Isn't that more than what Bokuhero had with its first 12 chapters? At least I think Bokuhero did not get cover twice within them.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

He doesn't appear to be an English speaker, so it may have come out a little strange sounding, but he may have been referring to their respective starts.

When Toriko debuted, it got the lead color and cover for #25 in 2008.
In #26 (chapter 2), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color.
In #30 (chapter 6), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color again.
In #36 (chapter 12), it got cover and lead color.

http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0830.html
http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0836.html

This is the initial monstrous promotion that Toriko received at its start.

I don't think Xzone was talking about that initial promotion of Toriko, but well.
In the end Toriko got that promotion, the 2nd chapter Lead color page instead of just a color page, because it was from an Amazing author from a Big title previously from the magazine that for external reasons, the sexual scandal, got halted and had later to get finished in Ultra Jump.

The chapter 12 cover and lead color page is something funny. Because Shimabukuro last work and One Piece also got that promotion. One Piece even got it better, in chapter 16, 4 chapters later, got another Cover and lead color page.
After that cover and lead at chapter 12 Toriko didn't got any out of normal promotion anymore. It was super popular, and got appropriate color pages for that.

---------- Post added at 03:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 AM ----------

Isn't that more than what Bokuhero had with its first 12 chapters? At least I think Bokuhero did not get cover twice within them.

Boku no Hero academia still didn't got a second cover, but got a color page in its color page in its 9th chapter and consecutive color pages in its 14th and 15th chapter and another color page in its 20th chapter. 6 color pages and 1 cover page(counting the 2nd and 1st chapter) in 20 chapters. Toriko got 5 color pages and 2 cover pages.

Toriko get a bigger promotion at the beginning but not that much as Boku no Hero Academia.

 

[Txapeldun]

Toriko get a bigger promotion at the beginning but not that much as Boku no Hero Academia.

Well, they must promote it. WSJ needs a big hit. For Boku no Hero is the biggest thing since Soma. (WT is not a hit and Isobe is a gag series), and Soma is already two years old.

 

[Leoat12]

He doesn't appear to be an English speaker, so it may have come out a little strange sounding, but he may have been referring to their respective starts.

When Toriko debuted, it got the lead color and cover for #25 in 2008.
In #26 (chapter 2), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color.
In #30 (chapter 6), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color again.
In #36 (chapter 12), it got cover and lead color.

http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0830.html
http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0836.html

This is the initial monstrous promotion that Toriko received at its start.

I don't think that he was talking about it as well, bring something that happened ages ago to compare both doesn't make any sense. Also, Toriko had that promotion because it was a huge success, World Trigger would have something similar if it had the same popularity in the beginning like what is happening with Boku no Hero Academia now.

Unok already made his point very well, someone who say that Toriko is being promoted more than World Trigger or some other series doesn't know what he is talking about. It's not necessary statistics to see it.

 

[101nemesis]

Around a year or something, there was another user (won't mention his name), who was annoyed Toriko sold more in the year sales than Bleach and blabbered the same thing.

*pew pew* shots fired
For those who don't know, he means me :P

And I wasn't even annoyed about Toriko outselling Bleach because we all knew Bleach sold less than 500k lower because of 2 less volumes. Toriko always did get sort of a special treatment from WSJ. WSJ almost immediately put Toriko as one of it's top 3/4 manga in joint covers less than 1/2 year after it's debut. Soma, Assassination Classroom and all took much longer before they got placed somewhere with Luffy and Naruto. Heck, Soma still isn't placed like that. Also, didn't Toriko get a collaboration chapter with One Piece? Not trying to start another argument but just thought I'd mention these. Just so that it looks like I had some sort of a point back then. :P

About Covers and CPs, I'll agree that I was wrong about 2012.(There I said it ). But whatever. WT got heavily promoted this year. There's no denying that (even if most of that promotion was for the anime), so I technically agree with your overall point about WT. Soooo (the mustache because its Movember)

 

[Unok]

This list is not correct at all.
You should be aware, the TOCs posted in here are not always reliable. I remember at least two posts about the TOC this year which accidently mixed up positions and colour pages

You are boldly stating everything is incorrect, without backing your words with facts and correct stats. You are assuming I counted wrong ToC's. How did you assume that? Just because it had some wrong, it doesn't mean a correct one wasn't posted after it >.> When you say someone is incorrect, you should back your word with facts of why it's incorrect, not with out of nowhere assumptions he MUST have made mistake.

As Bigivelfhq said, I counted from livejournal site, since it's easier to find ToC after Toc, than looking up here and searching between hundreds of posts.

He doesn't appear to be an English speaker, so it may have come out a little strange sounding, but he may have been referring to their respective starts.

When Toriko debuted, it got the lead color and cover for #25 in 2008.
In #26 (chapter 2), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color.
In #30 (chapter 6), it didn't get the cover, but it got the lead color again.
In #36 (chapter 12), it got cover and lead color.

http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0830.html
http://hamada.tsukaeru.info/jump/2008/jump0836.html

This is the initial monstrous promotion that Toriko received at its start.

No, he clearly talks about current situation, not starts. His comment came for defense of user stating it's been a year or something since WT was above Toriko. He mentioned the promotion as an excuse of WT being under Toriko. It's become even more clear that he talks about last year, when he mentions Toriko's anime. He can't talk about starts, since Toriko did not had anime from its start.

And yeah, Toriko did receive push in the beginning. Toriko is from popular author, felt it could be a hit and naturally received little more promotion that other new series. Ch12 it was basically standing on it's own feet already and you can't prove it didn't receive the Cover and CP due to it's popularity (back then Jump was trying to get new hit titles, since they had problems getting one around that time, so it's natural to award new hit title), just look at the ToC positions from the site you provide (for ch8-9 it's 3rd and 4th, site counts series with CPs too, so if we ignore 1st position then, like here is mostly done, then it's 2nd and 3rd, clearly ch12 Cover and CP may have been given because of this success). After that it was promoted like every other series. Boku no Hero was promoted due to it's success. There are other series receiving early CPs like that too. Illegal Rare was promoted (4 CPs for 15 chapters) for different reason: popular author and they wanted it to succeed, even though it wasn't doing so well. In a way you could say for its starts, IR promotion was mostly "push from Jump", Boku no Hero mostly due popularity and Toriko mix of both. Which doesn't make Toriko that more promoted as lots of people state. Every successful author who returns will get little push from Jump, after that the title will depend on itself, if it gets popular it will keep getting CPs just like the rest popular series.

edit:
101nemesis: That's why some time after that you said "Toriko getting consecutive volumes (2 volumes for 2 months), so that it can again end above Bleach in the year ranking sales". It's clearly that you were annoyed that Toriko may end in front of Bleach. Toriko gets more volumes a year, because it had more pages per chapter (Toriko have usually 19 pages per chapter, right now Bleach often have 17), meaning it fills volumes faster. Kubo takes more breaks than Shimabukuro (Kubo took a month or something break before he started his last arc and soon took another month for preparations again). That's why Toriko ends up with more volumes.

AssClass and Soma came after Toriko, Bleach was already on decline of popularity. Toriko turned hit quite fast, there wasn't other series like AssClass and Soma, to compete for larger characters on shared covers. Naturally it was easier for Toriko to become 3-4th most popular than the current series. I don't remember Soma being that much of a hit from the beginning, but I could be wrong, I'm not interested in the series, I don't follow what happens to it.

Collaboration with OP was due of many factors: similar settings; Shima and Oda being friends; same anime studio (which may have also pushed into that idea); rise of toriko popularity. Then I should also mention that Gintama x Sket Dance; Haikyuu x Nisekoi; Nisekoi x Ore Monogatari; Dragon Ball x OP, as other crossovers that occurred in the last years. Which doesn't make Toriko special case as other series also received crossovers.

 

[Schabrak]

*pew pew* shots fired
For those who don't know, he means me :P

And I wasn't even annoyed about Toriko outselling Bleach because we all knew Bleach sold less than 500k lower because of 2 less volumes. Toriko always did get sort of a special treatment from WSJ. WSJ almost immediately put Toriko as one of it's top 3/4 manga in joint covers less than 1/2 year after it's debut. Soma, Assassination Classroom and all took much longer before they got placed somewhere with Luffy and Naruto. Heck, Soma still isn't placed like that. Also, didn't Toriko get a collaboration chapter with One Piece? Not trying to start another argument but just thought I'd mention these. Just so that it looks like I had some sort of a point back then. :P

Sooo many tears. :P

Toriko was instantly a very interactive series that got lot's of contact to the readers because of the fan animal creations. You act as if getting some more promotion is treating other series badly, when it's simply that. A way to market and push a franchise some more due to the Editor in Chiefs decisions, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[vampire killer]

Guys you need to calm down.. You all know deep in your hearts that gintama is the best thing out there. No point in arguing