TV House of The Dragon

xi0

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Did people break oaths against him? The Stormlords sided with Renly, their lord, and most of the Reach joined Renly due to the Tyrells, their lord. Outside of the supposed duty to obey primogeniture, but that was already messy given the whole incest thing wasn't public, everyone did seem to be following who they were supposed to be. The only people I remember disliking Stannis was Renly and Littlefinger, and even in the latter case I'm not sure if he truly cared.
If you believe that Cersei's children were bastards and that Stannis was Robert's heir, then yes. Well, maybe they didn't swear oaths to Stannis himself but he would be their king if they followed customs and how things are normally done. You'd also assume they swore oaths to Robert after he took the throne as well, which includes swearing oaths to his heir and line, which Stannis was both originally his heir since he had no legitimate children then, and he remained his heir because Cersei's children weren't his. If the Tyrells wanted to stay loyal to the crown and ignore what was said about Robert's children then they would do that instead, but supporting Renly as a third choice was of course a gambit that didn't pay off, but they were smart enough to know that they wouldn't be punished for it in order to keep the realm intact.
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This was a topic of conversation with another Youtuber not long after AKOT7K finished airing and it's a interesting convo. His ranking for HOTD S1 is kinda controversial and probably too high though IMO.
 

Rikudou King

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If you believe that Cersei's children were bastards and that Stannis was Robert's heir, then yes. Well, maybe they didn't swear oaths to Stannis himself but he would be their king if they followed customs and how things are normally done. You'd also assume they swore oaths to Robert after he took the throne as well, which includes swearing oaths to his heir and line, which Stannis was both originally his heir since he had no legitimate children then, and he remained his heir because Cersei's children weren't his. If the Tyrells wanted to stay loyal to the crown and ignore what was said about Robert's children then they would do that instead, but supporting Renly as a third choice was of course a gambit that didn't pay off, but they were smart enough to know that they wouldn't be punished for it in order to keep the realm intact.
That seems to be the thing, as far as we were shown, outside of the handful on the council, people really didn't believe that. Ned was the first to publicly claim that, and then he publicly denounced it. Afterward, only Stannis publicly used it as justification. As far as I can remember, Renly pretended like he didn't know about the incest, even though his actions before Robert's death imply he did. And the Tyrells appear to just want power, considering they were trying to replace Cersei even before the incest investigation. If they believed in the incest claim, tying their name to the Lannisters would have been an awful move, since if the truth ever came out, they would be screwed too. I don't even think the incest is brought back up after the war, except that conversation Jaime had with Myrcella.
 

xi0

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That seems to be the thing, as far as we were shown, outside of the handful on the council, people really didn't believe that. Ned was the first to publicly claim that, and then he publicly denounced it. Afterward, only Stannis publicly used it as justification. As far as I can remember, Renly pretended like he didn't know about the incest, even though his actions before Robert's death imply he did. And the Tyrells appear to just want power, considering they were trying to replace Cersei even before the incest investigation. If they believed in the incest claim, tying their name to the Lannisters would have been an awful move, since if the truth ever came out, they would be screwed too. I don't even think the incest is brought back up after the war, except that conversation Jaime had with Myrcella.
I mean, this is all an explanation of why the war of the 5 kings happened, but it doesn't change whether people should be considered oathbreakers for not supporting Stannis or not. Personally, I think the evidence that Cersei's children were bastards is totally solid and it would be believable by anyone who has even cursory knowledge of the great houses and their lineage. Mind you it's utterly stupid and anti-realism, but Baratheons simply not being blonde ever is the main basis for Ned learning of their bastardy and that would be plenty compelling for anyone else who understands how GRRM decided genetics work in-universe. The fact that this wasn't plainly obvious immediately tells me somehow this knowledge wouldn't be widespread or it was somehow ignored, or people doubted Cersei and her children from the moment they realized Joffrey was blonde. IMO it's clearly the latter, it just wasn't convenient or politically expedient to say so publicly.

The reality is it only became relevant once Ned announced it as hand of the king and the kingdom became fractured as a result. If Joffrey had just sent him to The Wall like Tywin or Cersei wanted, the war probably wouldn't have happened.

The thing with the Tyrells is they didn't care about the incest claim because the Lannisters held power, just like they didn't care about the claims about Loras or any other Flower Knights from the south. Margaery would have plausible deniability since she's a Tyrell and married to a bastard posing as the King. The Tyrells will likely weasel out of this mess in the future story as well, as long as they survive Aegon and the Golden Company, that is.
 

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I don't necessarily agree that every change made was for the worse or that Condal shouldn't have changed anything at all, but it's a very comprehensive breakdown of them and the issues with adapting Fire & Blood in general.
Ok, finally got around to that. Had to laughed when he mentioned it the mockumentary format because it's exactly what I was thinking as he was talking about the book's format. I suppose it's not really unsurprising that most of the changes, good or bad, were done in service of making the story fit the "two queens" dynamic (hearing about the blood and cheese part was specially surprising). Even without reading the book you can tell this dynamic doesn't work at all but hearing about the changes really shows how much effort they put into forcing it. Hopefully they abandon this next season because with the direction the characters already took and should take going forward putting the relationship between the two of them at the forefront will make even less sense.
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I mean, this is all an explanation of why the war of the 5 kings happened, but it doesn't change whether people should be considered oathbreakers for not supporting Stannis or not. Personally, I think the evidence that Cersei's children were bastards is totally solid and it would be believable by anyone who has even cursory knowledge of the great houses and their lineage. Mind you it's utterly stupid and anti-realism, but Baratheons simply not being blonde ever is the main basis for Ned learning of their bastardy and that would be plenty compelling for anyone else who understands how GRRM decided genetics work in-universe. The fact that this wasn't plainly obvious immediately tells me somehow this knowledge wouldn't be widespread or it was somehow ignored, or people doubted Cersei and her children from the moment they realized Joffrey was blonde. IMO it's clearly the latter, it just wasn't convenient or politically expedient to say so publicly.

The reality is it only became relevant once Ned announced it as hand of the king and the kingdom became fractured as a result. If Joffrey had just sent him to The Wall like Tywin or Cersei wanted, the war probably wouldn't have happened.

The thing with the Tyrells is they didn't care about the incest claim because the Lannisters held power, just like they didn't care about the claims about Loras or any other Flower Knights from the south. Margaery would have plausible deniability since she's a Tyrell and married to a bastard posing as the King. The Tyrells will likely weasel out of this mess in the future story as well, as long as they survive Aegon and the Golden Company, that is.
You know, sometimes the idea bothers me that there's actually a non zero chance that any of the baratheon kids could actually be robert's kid. What really sells this of course is that cercei is pretty explicit about the lengths she went through to not have children with robert. However on the other hand there's the issue of how deeply unintelligent she is and her fumbling her birth control (as easy as it is in the story) is hilariously plausible. That said, this is what readers know. For in story characters even the incest in merely a salacious rumor... What Arryn and Ned figured out is probably solid enough for folk to go by but overall there will always be room for error.. In the end, infidelity alone is probably chaos enough for a bloodline, let alone the consequences to the kingdom.
 

xi0

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Ok, finally got around to that. Had to laughed when he mentioned it the mockumentary format because it's exactly what I was thinking as he was talking about the book's format. I suppose it's not really unsurprising that most of the changes, good or bad, were done in service of making the story fit the "two queens" dynamic (hearing about the blood and cheese part was specially surprising). Even without reading the book you can tell this dynamic doesn't work at all but hearing about the changes really shows how much effort they put into forcing it. Hopefully they abandon this next season because with the direction the characters already took and should take going forward putting the relationship between the two of them at the forefront will make even less sense.
I guess it should have been obvious what they were doing when they made Rhaenyra and Alicent the same age and childhood friends. In the books Alicent is at least 10 years older than Rhaenyra and they didn't really know eachother much at all prior to Alicent becoming her stepmother. The writers of the material sometimes do like to pose them as foils because of the family history and them both being mothers, but there's no real personal relationship involved as far as we know.

At a surface value it makes sense why they did what they did, but it indeed fucks over so much of the story. Does it really make sense that Alicent is so willing to have Aegon and Aemon killed in order to be amicable with Rhaenyra? What about having zero reaction to her beheading her father? Sure we can think of Alicent as a brazen sociopath like that but does it feel correct?

You know, sometimes the idea bothers me that there's actually a non zero chance that any of the baratheon kids could actually be robert's kid. What really sells this of course is that cercei is pretty explicit about the lengths she went through to not have children with robert. However on the other hand there's the issue of how deeply unintelligent she is and her fumbling her birth control (as easy as it is in the story) is hilariously plausible. That said, this is what readers know. For in story characters even the incest in merely a salacious rumor... What Arryn and Ned figured out is probably solid enough for folk to go by but overall there will always be room for error.. In the end, infidelity alone is probably chaos enough for a bloodline, let alone the consequences to the kingdom.
Cersei's issues with her birth control came a lot later when she was drunk on her hubris and losing it due to the stress of the crown. Trust me, she simply had too much hate in her heart for Robert and was way too promiscuous herself to not handle that shit properly when it truly mattered to her position. She was only ever going to have Jaime's children due to her psycho-sexual obsession with him (really herself, by extension).

But the component of them having blonde hair just kinda being a non-issue until Jon Arryn and Ned came across it is kind of a weird thing. If Ned goes back and reads the description of every head Baratheon lord and they all had dark hair, none of Cersei's kids having dark hair would be salacious. This isn't just a result of Baratheon+Lannister either, in the source material Rhaenys for HoTD has black hair because her mother was a Baratheon. Roberts/Stannis/Renlys grandmother was one of Aegon V's daughters and no silver/blond hair to speak of there. Somehow "the seed is strong" is just how Baratheon genes work and there's not a single example of a person with a Baratheon parent that doesn't have dark hair.

Like I said before I'm sure some people said things privately but it's the Lannisters so no one didanything about it. However, if it was pertinent enough for Ned to do what he did, Cersei being unfaithful to Robert should have been as close to fact as humanly possible.
 

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xi0

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I feel like Cannibal is probably going to be cut. He doesn’t really add anything to the story.
The issue is Ryan Condal mentioned "new" dragons when teasing season 4, which can either mean named dragons that live in the Dragon Pit in King's Landing that we haven't seen yet, like Tyraxes, Morghul, or Shrykos, or it means either The Cannibal or Grey Ghost on Dragonstone. The latter is kinda relevant to something that has yet to happen in the story, and so is the Dragon Pit for that matter. So my bet is it'll be both probably.

I'm actually curious about the supposed Dreamfyre we saw in Helaena's dream since it was different in appearance from the Dreamfyre we saw in season 1. We see it flying with Vhagar and Sunfyre when they're leaving Dragonstone and there's also the bluish dragon Damon runs into in the mountain. I've seen some people say that was actually Seasmoke, but it was definitely too large to be Tyraxes. Not sure why they made Dreamfyre purple.
 

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The issue is Ryan Condal mentioned "new" dragons when teasing season 4, which can either mean named dragons that live in the Dragon Pit in King's Landing that we haven't seen yet, like Tyraxes, Morghul, or Shrykos, or it means either The Cannibal or Grey Ghost on Dragonstone. The latter is kinda relevant to something that has yet to happen in the story, and so is the Dragon Pit for that matter. So my bet is it'll be both probably.

I'm actually curious about the supposed Dreamfyre we saw in Helaena's dream since it was different in appearance from the Dreamfyre we saw in season 1. We see it flying with Vhagar and Sunfyre when they're leaving Dragonstone and there's also the bluish dragon Damon runs into in the mountain. I've seen some people say that was actually Seasmoke, but it was definitely too large to be Tyraxes. Not sure why they made Dreamfyre purple.
Cannibal was just kind of not a big deal in the book (I could be wrong and in need of a reread). He seems pretty easy to cut.

The show is continuing to wildly deviate from the books though so maybe Rhaena ends up reclaiming Sheepstealer, taming Cannibal, and then just flying off to find out what’s east of Esteros and establishing a new dragon kingdom that Jon Snow has to deal with whenever he gets his spin off show.
 

xi0

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Cannibal was just kind of not a big deal in the book (I could be wrong and in need of a reread). He seems pretty easy to cut.
In the grand scheme of things, no, he isn't. But given what Condal said, and given that Grey Ghost is killed by Sunfyre when Aegon takes Dragonstone and everyone assumes it was The Cannibal's doing adding to the the whole shock of the following events, I think they'll be acknowledged in the show. Sure, Condal could not even involve that setting and do something completely different but the plot still seems to be pointed in that direction IMO. I don't remember if Daemon names them specifically, but in 1x10 during the Black Council he references three wild dragons on Dragonstone, so they exist in the show's continuity. Whether Condal remembers that or not is of course a different story, but there's too much cool stuff to use there.

The show is continuing to wildly deviate from the books though so maybe Rhaena ends up reclaiming Sheepstealer, taming Cannibal, and then just flying off to find out what’s east of Esteros and establishing a new dragon kingdom that Jon Snow has to deal with whenever he gets his spin off show.
The show has deviated from the books, but nothing really that severe involving made up plot points etc. Just more about character motivations being different or odd, or giving characters things to do when they're not involved in the current events (Alicent, Aegon mainly). There's nothing really to suggest that Rhaena could tame another dragon, let alone that dragon be The Cannibal.

And I would certainly hope that such a thing wouldn't be a motiviation since the Jon Snow sequel was shelved and isn't happening. Since the Rhaena storyline essentially replaced Nettles, they could just give her "epilogue" of sorts (her and Sheepstealer disappearing and being the folklore behind the Burned Men of the Vale), or just give her bookRhaena's story.
 

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Considering their treatment of Sheepstealer and Dreamfyre, I serious doubt we'll get anything with Cannibal.

I mean, this is all an explanation of why the war of the 5 kings happened, but it doesn't change whether people should be considered oathbreakers for not supporting Stannis or not. Personally, I think the evidence that Cersei's children were bastards is totally solid and it would be believable by anyone who has even cursory knowledge of the great houses and their lineage. Mind you it's utterly stupid and anti-realism, but Baratheons simply not being blonde ever is the main basis for Ned learning of their bastardy and that would be plenty compelling for anyone else who understands how GRRM decided genetics work in-universe. The fact that this wasn't plainly obvious immediately tells me somehow this knowledge wouldn't be widespread or it was somehow ignored, or people doubted Cersei and her children from the moment they realized Joffrey was blonde. IMO it's clearly the latter, it just wasn't convenient or politically expedient to say so publicly.
Isn't that the core issue though, such knowledge wouldn't be something the majority of people would know, at best only the other highborns and even then not beyond a few generations? Plus the whole genetics thing isn't even the case in-universe for the other houses as far as we know, at least in the cases of the Starks and Targaryens, so it makes sense people wouldn't assume there has never been a blonde Baratheon without having a book that stated such. I would say, given the cutthroat nature of the nobility, had they had an idea of such an easy means of disposing the Lannisters, most would have taken it

The reality is it only became relevant once Ned announced it as hand of the king and the kingdom became fractured as a result. If Joffrey had just sent him to The Wall like Tywin or Cersei wanted, the war probably wouldn't have happened.
Doesn't that only apply to Rob and the North, who were the only ones involved because of Ned's death. Stannis and Renly were already preparing before Ned died, and Balon only cared that everyone was distracted by the fighting.

The thing with the Tyrells is they didn't care about the incest claim because the Lannisters held power, just like they didn't care about the claims about Loras or any other Flower Knights from the south. Margaery would have plausible deniability since she's a Tyrell and married to a bastard posing as the King. The Tyrells will likely weasel out of this mess in the future story as well, as long as they survive Aegon and the Golden Company, that is.
Sure, they would survive in the end, but they would lose any claim to the throne if the truth came out, which seems to be their end goal. It's not even like the Lannisters were the only choice... They could have joined the North forces, which probably could have let them take the throne, since Rob had no desire for it.
 

xi0

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Considering their treatment of Sheepstealer and Dreamfyre, I serious doubt we'll get anything with Cannibal.
I would agree if Condal hadn't said anything about "new dragons" next season. That could be limited to The Dragon Pit dragons perhaps, but I feel like it won't be.

Isn't that the core issue though, such knowledge wouldn't be something the majority of people would know, at best only the other highborns and even then not beyond a few generations? Plus the whole genetics thing isn't even the case in-universe for the other houses as far as we know, at least in the cases of the Starks and Targaryens, so it makes sense people wouldn't assume there has never been a blonde Baratheon without having a book that stated such. I would say, given the cutthroat nature of the nobility, had they had an idea of such an easy means of disposing the Lannisters, most would have taken it
The highborn peoples knowing means everyone would eventually know. Keep in mind that I'm approaching this as it being a flaw in the story's logic here. If one could simply browse a book and see that not a single known Baratheon has ever been fair of hair, then I don't see how that's something that's just randomly discovered 300ish years into the House's history. Especially when they're the house that replaced the Targaryen dynasty. They would be under a very large microscope, especially with consideration to who Robert's heirs would be, etc.

Another example of this is Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor. The Velaryons look like Targaryens in the source material, so Jace/Luke/Joff having dark hair is not that noteworthy, even if you want to say that those three were actually Harwin Strong's children (you could even say Jace is Criston Cole's son, the timeline allows it), there is less evidence to support that than calling Cersei's children bastards. There are plenty of Targaryens and Velaryons with dark hair, Rhaenys in the source material has a Baratheon mother and has brown hair, Baelor Breakspear has brown hair and his mother is a Martell.

Doesn't that only apply to Rob and the North, who were the only ones involved because of Ned's death. Stannis and Renly were already preparing before Ned died, and Balon only cared that everyone was distracted by the fighting.
It's clearly the main motivation for Robb and the Riverlanders to call to arms, but if you're asking me whether it's relevant to Stannis or Renly whether a bastard usurper had the hand of the king's head chopped off, I'd say yes? Especially to Stannis because he is vindicated by Ned saying he is Robert's true heir.

Sure, they would survive in the end, but they would lose any claim to the throne if the truth came out, which seems to be their end goal. It's not even like the Lannisters were the only choice... They could have joined the North forces, which probably could have let them take the throne, since Rob had no desire for it.
IDK, I think GRRM is trying to paint the Tyrells as shrewd and risk-adverse, though I mentioned earlier that them picking Renly at all sort of bucks that notion. It might be a longshot, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Tyrell's default position is to be distrustful of Northerners, mainly because the Starks received and raised up the Manderleys after they were exiled from The Reach following Aegon's conquest. So I still think the position that makes the most sense for them is allied with the Lannisters, which is where they ended up anyway.

IMO I don't see them being loyal to them much longer though, I don't see Mace living much longer and Randyll Tarly will likely pledge fealty to Aegon.
 
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