Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[kkck]

I have been thinking about illumi's needles for a bit now. Now, the way in which he uses them is overall simple, he uses them to control and manipulate other stuff by implanting them in people and himself. In this regard, illumi is indeed a textbook manipulator. The issue itself would be in the sheer amount of needles he uses. Normally a manipulator would be better off by manipulating a single object as the meaning the object has to you would affect the technique. On the other hand illumi just throws them around like beads at mardi gras and does not even bother to get them back for the most part. Now, there are two ways in which illumi could stock himself with needles, he could have them made or he could materialize them himself. Materializing them himself would have a huge advantage over him simply running out of needles as he could create a limitless number of them. There is the issue that he would get only 60% from materialization however I don't think that is in itself an issue if he is materializing such an overwhelmingly simple object and deriving its abilities from his manipulation skills. What does everyone think?

 

[Uriel]

I personally believe that the needle technique came before He learned Nen, so the knowledge of how to use it to manipulate people may come from that training. It can be done in HxH world, let's not forget Pitou making Pokkle talk about Nen by using two sticks as if He was Chinese food.

Nen technique could be a more deep effect than that, making it subtle (subconsciously) and allowing En range by using Emission. They may be materialized but I find that strange on a Manipulator. Comes to my mind what Shalnark said about manipulators and how they're sometimes in disadvantage due needing always the particular item. And He was not a rookie to just assume that He lacked the ability to materialize a simple object like a cellphone.

 

[Phantron]

If Ilumi carries around say a hundred needles that's more than enough for any number of fights he should expect to get into before he can restock. While Manipulate is dependent on objects, there's no reason those objects have to be very special. I'd assume the needles themselves are pretty ordinary so he can buy/steal more of them at anywhere you'd expect to have a hospital.

I'm guessing if you materialized your own needles, they wouldn't be as strong. In particular, you probably won't be able to control people with a materialized object, otherwise there's really no advantage to be a manipulation user whatsoever since whatever object you manipulate can be materialized.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

I'm guessing if you materialized your own needles, they wouldn't be as strong. In particular, you probably won't be able to control people with a materialized object, otherwise there's really no advantage to be a manipulation user whatsoever since whatever object you manipulate can be materialized.

Gotta agree that Materializing an object that you then manipulate not only require you to make the Materialization training for that object first, but it won't give you that 'lifetime partner' stuff the manipulation object would.

A manipulator constantly make his manipulated item better, and i don't think a Materialized one would work like that.

OTOH, Look at biscuit.

 

[kkck]

^Well, one way or another illumi does not have the lifetime partner thing. We have no reason to believe he recovers his needles right? And for something as basic as needles I doubt much training is needed (we saw kurapica's chain training and it was not much traning at all).

 

[Phantron]

^Well, one way or another illumi does not have the lifetime partner thing. We have no reason to believe he recovers his needles right? And for something as basic as needles I doubt much training is needed (we saw kurapica's chain training and it was not much traning at all).

I think he means lifetime partner as in the equivalent of Shalunark's antenna/cellphone, or Morel's giant pipe. It doesn't matter if they just started learning their ability yesterday, or they've mastered it for 100 years. Both will always require certain props to manifest their ability, and without it there is no way they can use that particular ability at all. We can imagine when Morel started training maybe he can only make smoke bunnies. If he has Meryem's level of power maybe he can make smoke Rose or whatever. However he will always need the giant pipe because without it he can't get the smoke to work with.

Likewise Ilumi's manipulation abilities are always tied to having some needles around, regradless of their strength. Of course, the needles he use look pretty standard stuff so there's no reason why he can't literally have a hundred of those around. There's nothing saying the object you manipulate has to be one of a kind. Presumably Morel and Shalunark can make/buy more pipes/cellphones if they ever lose their current one, but they will always need to get the specific item back to use their abilities.

 

[Uriel]

About the subject of materialization, I still say that size doesn't matter when it comes to training of materialization. Every object in mind has exactly the same size, so it's coherent to think that complexity or size is not a factor for a person with a regular talent.

 

[kkck]

^On that I disagree. At the very least there will be a difference in the amount of nen required to materialize an object. The object might have the same size in the mind but the object will have very real differences with other objects and its own attributes once it is materialized. The manga has portrayed nen as something from which you give and take, I can't imagine someone materializing a smaller or larger and more complicated object without the amount of work and power to correspond to that. Heck, even with kurapica it is not like he made the chain on the first try once he started materializing chains, he said he must have made thousands of them until he got it right. Complexity is definitely an issue when it comes to conjuring objects.

 

[Uriel]

Well, I'm giving for assured that you have enough aura to materialize what you want to materialize. In 1:1 radio.

But complexity is something highly arguable. I mean, materialized items have always or most times a special property and not everyone is a physicist expert to understand how the effect is achieved. I mean, Leorio can make a fucking black hole and it's very likely He doesn't know how He did it. The sketches Kurapika did were probably in design and effect and what He said about Pledge and Condition. Since we know little about his training, we can't just assume that you get materialized thing JUST as you like in the first try but that doesn't depends on complexity rather than taste.

 

[kkck]

Leorio is likely an emission, I doubt it is a relevant comparison. I don't think the molecular makeup of something is very relevant for the thread although at least things which are in theory more dense should require more aura to materialize. The complexity is not an issue of the material itself but rather its shape and any mechanism behind it which does not work magically. Say, if you want to materialize a submarine it is very likely it will have a bunch of little parts and mechanisms which you have to be able to imagine to the required detail and that is not something easy to do. I don't think a complex mechanism would appear just because, you must be able to properly understand and visualize it.

 

[Uriel]

You know, now that I read your post with a second read I understand your point. You're right on that. Damn, now I should re-read all the post here in the case I changed my mind about something else :P

 

[HiggsBoson]

Every single characters nen powers and category

Been a fan of HXH for the longest time. What drawed the most with this manga is how intricate and deep the Nen aura system is. I have never seen an anime/manga that has so much substance on how it lays out the foundation of super powers.

Examples are (SPOILER ALERT)










Reinforcement: Attack/Defense/Healing
-Gon's Janken rock (including Mature Gon's)
-Ubogin's Bing Bang impact
-The Guy with Tops at heavens arena
-Any weapons reinforced (Kurapika's chain/Scissor hands scissors/ Nobunaga's sword/Hisoka's cards)
-Leol's tidal wave technique (remember how reinforcements increases the volume of water.  Water can easily be materialized, then reinforced like cake!)
-Zazan's transformation to ultra thick, ugly version (If you think about it, it's kinda the same as Gon's transformation to mature Gon or Youpi's morphing ability [I'm getting this confused with Transformation as well])
-Darzornes Katana
-Kurapika's healing chain
-Phinx cyclone ability
-Zoldicks Butler reinforced coin attacks

Emmision: Any destructive projectile aura
-Zeno's/Nobunag's/Pitou's En
-Gon's jajaken paper
-Zeno's Dragons
-Silva's Dragonball Z balls of destruction (He lets them go at Kuroro and Zeno. Hint of reinforcement in there)
-The Guy with the wheelchair at heavens arena who used the super dash to escape Killua
-The Guy with one hand at heavens arena that used his aura to suffocate Zushi
-Razor's dodgeball powaaa...
-Franklin's bullets
-Netero's buddhas's ultra mega ownage beam (used on King)
-Bonolenov's ultimate attack (with a hint of strengthening and transformation. The same as Silvas balls)
-LEORIO FALCON PAUNCH!! (I don't know. Theres a hint of specialization in here somewhere)
-Feitan's ultimate attack (used on Zazans. But I think theres a touch of transformation in there to make it into a sun [I don't know if materialization can make pure, hot, radiating fire])
-Kalluto's ability (with a hint of manipulation with where the ability will hit with the help of paper)
-King's super powerful ray gun.
-Pokkles rainbow arrow ability

Transformation: Anything that changes the consistency of particles either aura or object
-Killua's electricity
-Hisoka's bungie Gum
-Bomb Devils big flowaaa attack
-Machi's threads (Kurapika had to use Gyo to actually see)
-Meleron's camoflauge ability
-One of the 10 shadow beast that turns into a blowfish porcupine (I have no idea if he reinfoced the growth of the hair or materialized it. Hell, ill just go with transformation)
-One of the shadows beast that changes his fang and has paralysis poison
-One of the shadow beasts who made a habitat in his stomach to cultivate different kinds of leeches.
-Old hag butlers ability to transform into a motorbike or plane (a hint of materialization)
- Gon jajaken scissor (or anything that changes the auro into like a lightsaber substance)

Manipulation: Aura or objects being controlled
-Illumi's needles
-Shalnarks cellphone
-Materialized copies controlled (The guy Hisoka killed in heavens arc/Razors dodgeball buddies/ Goreinu's monkeys/ The guy that got killed by Franlin controlling the puppets/Netero's buddha)
Veize's /The Lady that manipulates with her kiss
-Squalla's dawgs....
-Ikalgo the octopus (not squid)
-Morels smoke/pipe abilities (smoke is already there/materialized, then controlled)
-Senritsus mood altering music
-Shoot's hands that took away Killua's eye (maybe a hint of specializtion for that to happen)
-The guy that got killed by Franklin who threw furniture at him (like a freakin homing missle) or any case, any manipulated weapons like Kurapikas chains


Materialization: Objects/weapons made with rules and restrictions (only suck dead things/ only last 24 hours/ only used on spiders)
-Netero's Buhdda itself
-Any copies ([tentative]  Kastro's doppleganger/ Razors devils/ Goreinus apes/
-Kuroro's book
-Feitans armor
-Kortopi's copy ability
-Kurapika's chains
-Shizuku's deme-chan
-Pitou's huge ass puppet
-Kite's multifunctional/randomized weapons
-Pouf's butterfly copies
-Welfin's missles
-Knucles potclean
-Biscuits massage therapists
-Exorcist Abeganes swallowing monster then contain you thing..
-Goreinus apes (not sure if pure aura emmitted or materialzed apes)
-Bomb devils materialized bombs that appears when he explains he's the bomb devil.
-Shoots hands and cage.
-Owl/shadow beast handy dandy shrinking handkerchief.

Specialization: None of the above
-Kuroro's stealing abilities
-Pakunoda's mind reading skills
-Cheeto's magical place of tag
-Hina's exorcism ability
-Knovs room of rquirment lol!
-Palm's all seeing eye
-Alluka's insane broken wish ability
-Neon's future poem reading ability
-Basho's lie detection ability (chair set on fire)

Tell me if I missed anything...
And what do affinity do you think is the coolest?

 

[kkck]

Leo had the ability to burrow nen from others if he fulfilled a number of conditions. Wouldn't that normally fall into specialization? Of course the nen type of the surfing technique he actually used is another matter. Even with enhancement I doubt such water volumes could be explained. The surf board itself seemed conjured though.

Zazan's ability seemed to be more biological than nen related.

Gotoh's ability would require a good deal of emission more than even reinforcement.

Zilva and zeno have both been confirmed to be transmutters by the databook.

The guy with the nen hand never really separated from it. No emission there at all. Considering that he simply changed the nen into the shape of a hand it is certainly transmutation. I would argue the whole thing is basically the same as gon's transmutation training where he changed the shape of his nen into numbers.

Netero is a confirmed enhancer although that makes no sense whatsoever about what in the world his hatsu was. Materialization is a good deal away from enhancement so it is unlikely that is what is going here. My little theory is that netero became a specialization and the statue appeared as a result if his enlightenment.

Bonolenov is a bit of a weird case. We have no confirmation of whether the stuff that appears when he attacks can be seen by normal people so we really do not know if it is conjured or emission. It could go either way.

The armor around feitan seems conjured IMO. The manga implies feitan has several armors which has the implication that he has several abilities. I think it makes more sense that he has several armors as a conjurer than as a transmutter.

Kaluto uses paper to attack. I would argue that makes a lot more sense with manipulation. Worst case scenario she is a conjurer.

The kings abilities were related to the abilities of his guards. I would argue they would be of the same type as them in that case. I think their nen types were revealed in the manga but I can't recall what they were.

The hatsu used by castro was conjured, that was said in the manga. His main nen type was said to be most likely enhancement but didn't use it.

Cheeto is certainly solely a conjurer. Conjuring spaces out of nen is not unheard of, we have seen novu doing it. He also conjured his crossbow.

Goreinu uses emission. Its the same thing as with razor's guys.

Basho if I recall is a manipulator. His ability was not just lie detection but rather giving orders to stuff through his haiku.

 

[Uriel]

Gotoh is emission? How?
And I think Bonolenov transform Music into attack, which will make him Transformation. And I thought the King was surely Specialization. :O King Gourmet at least surely is.

 

[kkck]

I wrote several posts on the matter not to long ago on why I think he is most likely emission. Overall, his ability needs emission for the nen in the coins to maintain its power. Enhancement would be a factor here however the best nen type to maintain the power of the coins after they lose contact with his body is emission.

Transforming music into attack does not make sense from a nen point of view. Transformation is about transforming nen into other things basically. Transforming music into attacks would kinda skip that little bit even if we set aside that music is in itself either an abstract idea or not nen in itself. With this guy the most likely scenario is that his dancing affects his nen in some way which results in attacks. In a way the dances would be the conditions for the attacks perhaps. I just think conjuring stuff makes more sense here as it is a simpler explanation. If he uses transformation then his ability allows him to attack by using transformation and emission in conjunction with his dancing. If he conjures then his dances simply determine what attack is going to be conjured. Not to mention that transformation and emission has generally shown to be a bad combination so far (look at hisoka and machi).

 

[TheAmericandream]

I'll always support Zeno's DragonDrive and Dragonhead as being Emission abilities. I don't see how they can be Transmutation type, unless he just choses to not use his strength (which is possible, similar to how Netero's hatsu doesn't really seem all that Enhancement related).

 

[kkck]

I would argue that the transmutation aspect is most evident in the fight between zeno and chrollo. During that fight he used his dragon ability however he never actually separated from the dragon, the nen was attached to him the whole time. In this regard, his main fighting style is basically extending and controlling his transmuted dragon. He can use emission as shown during the quimera ant arc however the hatsu itself and the main way he uses it is actually a rather simple transmutation.

 

[Uriel]

So, the anime confirmed my formula

And about Reinforcements, I read on Internet somewhere something that made me quite curious: It said that Enhancers allowed to add more physical strength which reminded me the formula that Phantrom posted a while ago and then it made sense...It's not a Nen Multiplier about the Nen Multiplier which will remain the same...it's a multiplier over the strength itself.
So it would be (Force+Reinforcement)*Nen and not (Force*Nen)*Reinforcement.

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

Well, more like:
(Attack + Nen) * Condition Difficulty

But I was close in the shape :P

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------

So, for Reinforcement users will be like this:
(Attack + Nen )*Condition Difficulty = Damage Done.
Nen= (Basic Nen Technique + Experience Bonus + Current State of Mind Factor) * Hatsu

What you guys think?

 

[cipher]

Netero is a confirmed enhancer although that makes no sense whatsoever about what in the world his hatsu was. Materialization is a good deal away from enhancement so it is unlikely that is what is going here. My little theory is that Netero became a specialization and the statue appeared as a result if his enlightenment.

You're probably right about him having a specialization nen, I also have another theory, we all remember how Netero spent years training his fists and praying, and how he ended up completing the punching training so fast he ended up spending most of his day praying? well my theory is that because of that training praying and punching became intertwined , let's also not forget that it's easy to confuse emission with conjuration, the difference being that an emitted object is made out of pure nen while a conjured object is physical, so the statue he apparently created was done using emission which is the nen reinforcement users have the most affinity with after their own, so my theory is that every time he prays (since as I said earlier punching and praying were almost linked to him because of his training), he transmits the power of his reinforced fist into an emission technique, serving only as a relay, and using it to punch enemies at longer ranges and unpredictable angles.

 

[Phantron]

I'll go with the consensus on the Japanese boards that Netero using Emission is due to his physical skills have atrophied due to old age. HXH isn't a world where the older you get the stronger you become. Although Aura users have a long peak, it's definitely not forever. Reinforcement techniques are dependent on your body strength and is subject directly to effects of old age. While other techniques no doubt is affected by your physical strength, they presumably don't have a direct dependence the same way Reinforcement does.