Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Copy Panda]

however customizable, i think theres something like a hard cap on how far you can go with the amount of nen you have

like he might be able to develop another bookmark but it's going to take a hella lot more than a few cute rules about 'saving' a skill

 

[uberfayt]

I would also assume that if Killuah was even more talented than he is, he could do his thing without charing up.

That's quite a possibility, especially if the actual electricity he needs is just so that he can form a clear image in his mind about his aura gaining the properties of electricity. Personally I do not believe that's how his Hatsu works, I think that he uses up bits of actual electricity to generate his transformed aura (think of it like the energy from a strong explosion created using a simple spark and Gasoline. In this example, actual electricity is the spark, Gasoline is Killua's aura and the produced energy is the lightning-like aura). Therefore in my conception of his hatsu, he needs actual electricity regardless of his level of mastery of nen (we can say that the better he gets, the stronger his lightning gets).

Even a completely normal person would fight hell of a lot better if he fought his sworn arc enemy who he has vowed to defeat while having also sworn to suicide if his thirst for revenge shall ever weaken.
It wouldnt enable him to do things he could not do before tho, just strenghten the resolve. Someone who cannot swordfight still wont be able to do it

For the rest of your post, I share your opinion, except on this example you gave. I understand that your message is to emphasize that the stronger the determination through vows, the better the result, which is true in general. In the case of nen though, I do not thing "anybody" can casually make use of the "vows and limitations" thing. Here is why : When people get motivated to follow a certain vow they made to themselves (it can be anything from a simple time table to rules and principles), at that moment their determination is at it's peak and they have a clear image of it in their mind. However as time passes, that mental image of their determination starts to be forgotten, and thus it may become weaker. Of course this happens if the person gets distracted by future events, so it depends a bit on the level of discipline of that person. So here is the thing, for "vows and limitations" to work for nen, the user has to constantly keep fresh in his mind the image of his determination to follow the set rules, as well as clearly remember the feelings which pushed him to make such a vow. Otherwise I think the nen won't get stronger. Also the nen might get weaker if it somehow senses that it's user went astray from his first determination.

This is why it is only possible for even a handful of skilled hunters, as it requires tremendous amounts of discipline and focus. Kurapika of course is able to do it, since not only he does satiisfy the conditions I stated, but he also can be reminded of his hatred and animosity towards the spiders as soon as he sees a simple spider lol.

 

[Copy Panda]

Since Nen is influenced by emotion, the more honest and primal the emotion or desire is, the more powerful the nen will be.

It's not that just being angry or sad will unlock you some spicy power, it's just that Nen will 'respect' your desire to channel it if it's emotionally honest. Which is why Gon could power up so much to fight against Neferpitou. Besides, Nen taps into your potential, not into some third party reservoir that will you give you Nen as you get more and more upset. So not everyone equally upset will get the same amount of power.

 

[uberfayt]

Since Nen is influenced by emotion, the more honest and primal the emotion or desire is, the more powerful the nen will be.

It's not that just being angry or sad will unlock you some spicy power, it's just that Nen will 'respect' your desire to channel it if it's emotionally honest. Which is why Gon could power up so much to fight against Neferpitou. Besides, Nen taps into your potential, not into some third party reservoir that will you give you Nen as you get more and more upset. So not everyone equally upset will get the same amount of power.

True. But that is not exactly what i'm talking about. I'm saying that after the nen gets powerful by sensing the "honest and primal emotions or desires", then in order to stay that way the user has to always conserve the mental image of that exact "honest and primal emotion". I don't think anybody can do that, as it requires some level of discipline to pull-off.

 

[Copy Panda]

yeah i know, but i meant that once that contract is established, as long as its not breached, the power and whatnot will stay. i was thinking that the emotion thing is like a condition to set up the power, not to maintain it (as far as nen goes, forget for a moment the physical tax). we've not seen any circumstances of a gradual power down right?

 

[uberfayt]

yeah i know, but i meant that once that contract is established, as long as its not breached, the power and whatnot will stay. i was thinking that the emotion thing is like a condition to set up the power, not to maintain it (as far as nen goes, forget for a moment the physical tax). we've not seen any circumstances of a gradual power down right?

Yeah I agree with that. But I still think one needs more than that.

Of course it's just my own interpretation of it, but for me it would be a bit cheap and easy if the only requirement to boost one's hatsu is just establishing and respecting the contract. I always think that it is implied one needs to keep the feeling from his initial determination (which he had while making the contract) fresh in mind, otherwise the contract will be breached automatically. It's never been mentioned in the manga for this case, but IMO it is quite natural to assume it as it makes that power up quite balanced.

Edit : Here is the motivation behind what I'm saying : in the manga it is actually mentioned how important to keep the mental image of the aura quite precize and fresh. For example, when Gon and killua first awaken nen, Wing teaches them Ten then asks them to describe the feeling of their aura. Afterwards he tells them to remember that image. he then advices them to practice the other Ten and Ren everyday, and as a result they got better at the actual molding of their aura. When you think about it, the other nen is basically a meditation process to make the mind focus on the first image of their nen. eventhough it is not shown afterwards, it is implied that Gon and Killua practice it everyday, as well as Kurapika. Tsezuguera who did not practice any basic stuff for a long time found some problems as we know.

Now if this holds for Ten and Ren, I assume there should be a similar implicit procedure for "vows and limitations".

 

[shionoro]

For the rest of your post, I share your opinion, except on this example you gave. I understand that your message is to emphasize that the stronger the determination through vows, the better the result, which is true in general. In the case of nen though, I do not thing "anybody" can casually make use of the "vows and limitations" thing. Here is why : When people get motivated to follow a certain vow they made to themselves (it can be anything from a simple time table to rules and principles), at that moment their determination is at it's peak and they have a clear image of it in their mind. However as time passes, that mental image of their determination starts to be forgotten, and thus it may become weaker. Of course this happens if the person gets distracted by future events, so it depends a bit on the level of discipline of that person. So here is the thing, for "vows and limitations" to work for nen, the user has to constantly keep fresh in his mind the image of his determination to follow the set rules, as well as clearly remember the feelings which pushed him to make such a vow. Otherwise I think the nen won't get stronger. Also the nen might get weaker if it somehow senses that it's user went astray from his first determination.

This is why it is only possible for even a handful of skilled hunters, as it requires tremendous amounts of discipline and focus. Kurapika of course is able to do it, since not only he does satiisfy the conditions I stated, but he also can be reminded of his hatred and animosity towards the spiders as soon as he sees a simple spider lol.

Yes i do agree that vow and limitation can weaken over time.
But i think that this functions like general hatsu tweaks.

For example, it might be that a beginner needs a limitation so that he can use his hatsu.
Take a sword hatsu. A beginner might only be able to pull it off when he still has a swordhandle in his hand and it becomes like a lightsaber.
When he gets better at imagining the sword, naturally he wont need the handle anymore at some point.

It is a lot about feeling. Hisoka was impressed that chrollo was able to still keep his book conjured after he hit him, so even good nenusers (like chrollo definitely is) can lose their focus on complicated hatsus by just being hit hard.

Thus, you can't just 'tell' your limitation, you have to feel it, much like you have to feel good in your nen ability.

So, I agree with you that the limitation is a way to better form the mental image and to be more comfortable in your nen ability so you can intensify it (or even pull it off).

It seems like in the HxH world, you can get worse at nen rather quickly.
Tsezguerra is a one star hunter, so very very capable, but he noticed that his general nenhanding got bad because he didnt train enough.

I think if chrollo was to be confined in a prison without any chance to train his nen for a year, he could not pull skillhunter off anymore or would at least need new limitations on it.

 

[uberfayt]

Yes i do agree that vow and limitation can weaken over time.
But i think that this functions like general hatsu tweaks.

For example, it might be that a beginner needs a limitation so that he can use his hatsu.
Take a sword hatsu. A beginner might only be able to pull it off when he still has a swordhandle in his hand and it becomes like a lightsaber.
When he gets better at imagining the sword, naturally he wont need the handle anymore at some point.

It is a lot about feeling. Hisoka was impressed that chrollo was able to still keep his book conjured after he hit him, so even good nenusers (like chrollo definitely is) can lose their focus on complicated hatsus by just being hit hard.

Thus, you can't just 'tell' your limitation, you have to feel it, much like you have to feel good in your nen ability.

So, I agree with you that the limitation is a way to better form the mental image and to be more comfortable in your nen ability so you can intensify it (or even pull it off).

It seems like in the HxH world, you can get worse at nen rather quickly.
Tsezguerra is a one star hunter, so very very capable, but he noticed that his general nenhanding got bad because he didnt train enough.

I think if chrollo was to be confined in a prison without any chance to train his nen for a year, he could not pull skillhunter off anymore or would at least need new limitations on it.

Yes, Nen mastery hugely depends on keeping focused on a certain mind state, image or feeling. As you've said, if the nen user loses his concentration (anybody), then he will lose the ability to control nen. Hisoka was impressed by Chrollo since even after such a hit to the head, he was able to keep his concentration and keep the book conjured, and even more. However we have seen instances where the break of the concentration causes disturbances, like for Leol, when he started feeling dizzy from the CO2 he inhaled, his ability disappeared. Hisoka, when he lost his fingers he said he couldn't control nen precisely anymore in that part of his body, and it can be explained by the fact that he had yet to get used to the new feeling of nen in his fingerless hand.

So, I agree with you that the limitation is a way to better form the mental image and to be more comfortable in your nen ability so you can intensify it (or even pull it off).

About this part, it's not quite what I'm thinking. I'm saying that in order to keep a contract of limitation, you need to keep remembering the mental image of the moment when you've formed said limitation. Of course here we are talking about extreme vows and limitations such as in Kurapika's or Gon's case.

 

[shionoro]

es, Nen mastery hugely depends on keeping focused on a certain mind state, image or feeling. As you've said, if the nen user loses his concentration (anybody), then he will lose the ability to control nen. Hisoka was impressed by Chrollo since even after such a hit to the head, he was able to keep his concentration and keep the book conjured, and even more. However we have seen instances where the break of the concentration causes disturbances, like for Leol, when he started feeling dizzy from the CO2 he inhaled, his ability disappeared. Hisoka, when he lost his fingers he said he couldn't control nen precisely anymore in that part of his body, and it can be explained by the fact that he had yet to get used to the new feeling of nen in his fingerless hand.

Yes, i think so too. I think hisoka can relearn shooting bungee gum adequately, but it seems like he needs the feeling of limbs for it and thus has to create them himself. It makes sense that he can only keep the state of mind he needs when he imagines 'pointing' at things with one of his limbs.

About this part, it's not quite what I'm thinking. I'm saying that in order to keep a contract of limitation, you need to keep remembering the mental image of the moment when you've formed said limitation. Of course here we are talking about extreme vows and limitations such as in Kurapika's or Gon's case.

That is true. What i think is that the whole deal of why a limitation makes you stronger is that it enhances your mental image.
So if your mental representation of the limitation is not very strong anymore, it simply means that it does not help you a lot anymore.
I think that if kurapika's rage would soothe, his power against the spiders would be severely diminished.
I could imagine that even the oath could mellow down over time.

As a generalization, i see oath and limitation as a part of your hatsu. Since you can tweak your hatsu, you can tweak those.
The less you believe in your limitation anymore and your oath, the less it does (positively and negatively).

 

[uberfayt]

I've been wondering about something : No matter how you look at it, human Palm's ability "Mermaid clairvoyance" is more likely within the specialisation category, however we do know that Palm is an enhancer, so how did she develop such an ability ?

Note that the merman corpse and the crystal ball seem to be real objects and not conjured. One explanation could be that those are actually the powers of the crystal ball itself, and it just so happens that it can be activated by her blood only...What do you guys think ?

 

[shionoro]

I've been wondering about something : No matter how you look at it, human Palm's ability "Mermaid clairvoyance" is more likely within the specialisation category, however we do know that Palm is an enhancer, so how did she develop such an ability ?

Note that the merman corpse and the crystal ball seem to be real objects and not conjured. One explanation could be that those are actually the powers of the crystal ball itself, and it just so happens that it can be activated by her blood only...What do you guys think ?

It speaks for palm because this is very rare (but not impossible).
It does fit to some extent tho.
Palm is, one the one hand, a very honest and upright person and also very stubborn, but on the other hand she is insanely weird (at least at the beginning).

We don't know much about palm's upbringing and life,

Anyway, it is quite beautiful actually if her ability is specialization. We know only those people with a strong sense of individuality are open to get into that category already.
But only after she got a chimera ant she could use the full extent of the ability (not having to spill blood and just having to cover her right eye) .
Because she matured and stabilized her own personality, in my opinion, so her selfdestructive behaviour (spilling blood) was not required anymore.
At least like that it makes sense to me.

 

[uberfayt]

It speaks for palm because this is very rare (but not impossible).
It does fit to some extent tho.
Palm is, one the one hand, a very honest and upright person and also very stubborn, but on the other hand she is insanely weird (at least at the beginning).

We don't know much about palm's upbringing and life,

Anyway, it is quite beautiful actually if her ability is specialization. We know only those people with a strong sense of individuality are open to get into that category already.
But only after she got a chimera ant she could use the full extent of the ability (not having to spill blood and just having to cover her right eye) .
Because she matured and stabilized her own personality, in my opinion, so her selfdestructive behaviour (spilling blood) was not required anymore.
At least like that it makes sense to me.

When you say "this is rare but not impossible", you mean for someone to be born with two affinities of nen at the same time ? This is simply not possible as was stated by Wing.

No matter how you see it its contradictory to be an Enhancer, and have a Specialization ability. Normally Palm must have zero affinity to Specialization.

Oh and btw I'm not deducing that she's an Enhancer from her personality, it's a fact from the manga when she uses her Hatsu on coffee and increases its volume.

 

[Demonspeed]

I've been wondering about something : No matter how you look at it, human Palm's ability "Mermaid clairvoyance" is more likely within the specialisation category, however we do know that Palm is an enhancer, so how did she develop such an ability ?

Note that the merman corpse and the crystal ball seem to be real objects and not conjured. One explanation could be that those are actually the powers of the crystal ball itself, and it just so happens that it can be activated by her blood only...What do you guys think ?

I think she was a medium or wanted to be one and her ability enhanced these skills.

The crystal ball is not conjured IIRC so she is using it like a Manipulator, and with her blood as the trigger, she can track someone with it.

 

[uberfayt]

I think she was a medium or wanted to be one and her ability enhanced these skills.

The crystal ball is not conjured IIRC so she is using it like a Manipulator, and with her blood as the trigger, she can track someone with it.

She is probably just activating the crystal ball's powers using her blood. The fact that she might have wanted to become a medium and her personality may be the reasons why only she (or among few people) can activate the ability. Her nen definitely plays a role in this as well, although I don't see how.

 

[shionoro]

When you say "this is rare but not impossible", you mean for someone to be born with two affinities of nen at the same time ? This is simply not possible as was stated by Wing.

No matter how you see it its contradictory to be an Enhancer, and have a Specialization ability. Normally Palm must have zero affinity to Specialization.

Oh and btw I'm not deducing that she's an Enhancer from her personality, it's a fact from the manga when she uses her Hatsu on coffee and increases its volume.

Every nenuser can develope a specialist ability later in life, with enhancers being the least like to be able to develope a specialist hatsu.
So Palm is still enhancer as type but, as izunavi stated, the developes specialist abilities.
Palm has the affinity 20% to specialist abilities, much like specialists have 20% in enhancement.
At least that is how i understood Izunavi's explanation.
The 0% applied to kurapika's state as someone without a specialist ability.
Specialist abilities have no basic applications like emission, enhancing and so on, thus you usually have 0% there until you do develope an ability through whichever reason, and then you have the usual affnity as in any other class away from your own.

In any case (even if my guess that the affinity is only 20% might be wrong), izunavi said that the placement of specialist classes corresponds with the likelyhood of developing it in a given group. He never said that the likelyhood of enhancement was zero at developing specialization nen, just that is is the unlikeliest scenario.
So i do not think palm getting a specialist ability is out of question.

 

[uberfayt]

Every nenuser can develope a specialist ability later in life, with enhancers being the least like to be able to develope a specialist hatsu.
So Palm is still enhancer as type but, as izunavi stated, the developes specialist abilities.
Palm has the affinity 20% to specialist abilities, much like specialists have 20% in enhancement.
At least that is how i understood Izunavi's explanation.
The 0% applied to kurapika's state as someone without a specialist ability.
Specialist abilities have no basic applications like emission, enhancing and so on, thus you usually have 0% there until you do develope an ability through whichever reason, and then you have the usual affnity as in any other class away from your own.

In any case (even if my guess that the affinity is only 20% might be wrong), izunavi said that the placement of specialist classes corresponds with the likelyhood of developing it in a given group. He never said that the likelyhood of enhancement was zero at developing specialization nen, just that is is the unlikeliest scenario.
So i do not think palm getting a specialist ability is out of question.

I think Izunabi meant that all non specialists have 0% affinity with specialisation, not just Kurapika's case, so unless one is under the specialisation category, one cannot develop specialisation Hatsu. If Palm had her nen category changed to specialisation, then at the time when she used Hatsu on Coffee it wouldn't have overflown, but something else would've happened.

 

[Copy Panda]

yeah i dont think u can have specialist techniques as a non specialist

 

[shionoro]

I think Izunabi meant that all non specialists have 0% affinity with specialisation, not just Kurapika's case, so unless one is under the specialisation category, one cannot develop specialisation Hatsu. If Palm had her nen category changed to specialisation, then at the time when she used Hatsu on Coffee it wouldn't have overflown, but something else would've happened.

Yes, all people not only kurapika have before they actually develope such an ability.

I do think there is a misunderstanding about kurapika and izunavi: Most ppl think kurapika changes his nenclass when his eyes turn scarlet, but i think kurapika keeps being a plain old conjurer and the scarlet eyes are just a requirement for him to use that hatsu.

I know he did the water test and it said that he was a specialization user at that point, but i would argue that the water test is only accurate for beginners of nen.
It seems out of question for me that people like biscuit can do with that water whatever they want to.
It is only accurate for beginners because they usually can only do things in their dominant nenclass, if anything, thus you only see that effect.

I think anyone who is somewhat proficient in nen and is only one class away from manipulation could move that leaf a bit.
Kurapika, in the state he was in, simply used specialization nen without knowing it (once his eyes turn scarlet) and thus something else happened with the water when he applied his nen to it.

Thus, my guess is it goes like that: Every person has a most dominant nenclass.
Thus class dictates two things definitely: Roughly how good you are at other classes (minus maybe specialization) and how likely you are to learn specialization skills later (if you are not a specialist initially, which seems rare regarding izunavi's explanation).
However, once you develope specialization nen (which every nenclass can do, at least izunavi only spoke of likelyhood, not that it is impossible for enhancers), all bets are off.
I assume it corresponds with affinities, but that is not stated in the manga.

 

[uberfayt]

Yes, all people not only kurapika have before they actually develope such an ability.

I do think there is a misunderstanding about kurapika and izunavi: Most ppl think kurapika changes his nenclass when his eyes turn scarlet, but i think kurapika keeps being a plain old conjurer and the scarlet eyes are just a requirement for him to use that hatsu.

I know he did the water test and it said that he was a specialization user at that point, but i would argue that the water test is only accurate for beginners of nen.
It seems out of question for me that people like biscuit can do with that water whatever they want to.
It is only accurate for beginners because they usually can only do things in their dominant nenclass, if anything, thus you only see that effect.

I think anyone who is somewhat proficient in nen and is only one class away from manipulation could move that leaf a bit.
Kurapika, in the state he was in, simply used specialization nen without knowing it (once his eyes turn scarlet) and thus something else happened with the water when he applied his nen to it.

Thus, my guess is it goes like that: Every person has a most dominant nenclass.
Thus class dictates two things definitely: Roughly how good you are at other classes (minus maybe specialization) and how likely you are to learn specialization skills later (if you are not a specialist initially, which seems rare regarding izunavi's explanation).
However, once you develope specialization nen (which every nenclass can do, at least izunavi only spoke of likelyhood, not that it is impossible for enhancers), all bets are off.
I assume it corresponds with affinities, but that is not stated in the manga.

One thing to consider is that an individual's "dominant nenclass" is basically his affinity by birth, as was explained by Wing. I believe that the water divination technique is a way to determine only the affinity by birth, meaning that even if a nen veteran masters other affinities then redoes the water test, the effects would be those corresponding to his affinity by birth. At least this is what one can deduce from the manga. But I do agree with the "how it goes" part of your post (the last part). If I recall correctly, somebody mentioned that Conjurers and manipulators are the most likely to turn specialists.

 

[shionoro]

One thing to consider is that an individual's "dominant nenclass" is basically his affinity by birth, as was explained by Wing. I believe that the water divination technique is a way to determine only the affinity by birth, meaning that even if a nen veteran masters other affinities then redoes the water test, the effects would be those corresponding to his affinity by birth. At least this is what one can deduce from the manga. But I do agree with the "how it goes" part of your post (the last part). If I recall correctly, somebody mentioned that Conjurers and manipulators are the most likely to turn specialists.

Yesm Izunavi said that manipulators and conjurers are most likely to turn to spezialization nen.
It is kinda tricky if we assume that nenaffinities can change generally.

Izunavi called specialization an 'outer nenclass' that is kind of independend from the rest.

However, we know that some people are spezialization nenusers from the get go and are not in another class before they develope a specialization nen ability (like neon, or chrollo, or even meruem).

So i do think that the divination test measures roughly the quality of any given nen, but that once you learn nen (or if you are a very special person) strange things can happen.

I think the water divination test measures first and foremost what kind of nen is applied to the water and the leaf. And the kind of nen that is used in case of beginners is always the one dominant in them.

But if someone becomes a specialization user, his nen quality is something not contained in the other 4 categories, and thus his nen does strange things with the water, EVEN IF another class might be dominant inside him.

In case of palm however, i simply think she is an enhancer developing specialization nen later, which, after reading the izunavi explanation, seems quite possible.
She might only be able to dish out specialization nen once she hurt herself (so her blood is flowing) or s th like that, which is why in the divination test she just enhanced the water.

I believe that if she took it at the moment she would normally use specialization nen, s th else would have happened with the water.