Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I don't see why you think of the charging time as a part of the limitation in the same context as a condition/pledge/determination. When in the manga has such a thing been even vaguely implied? For gon to use rock he must move aura from around his body into his fist, that is the most basic thing about it, that is in itself the charging. Why wouldn't the charging time improve if gon becomes more adept at moving his own aura (which we know for a fact that for him it is still a slow, awkward and easy to read process even for regular attacks)? Gon has the liberty of adding any restrictions to his nen, that is his priviledge however when advised on the matter gon has been told he needs no such thing hence not to do it. He could do something franklin-ish to show his conviction (say, gon will always charge for 5 seconds regardless of the circumstances) however the manga has never even vaguely hinted at that either.

I was not talking about the charging time. I was talking about 'first is rock'. This IS NOT charging time.

It's Gon choosing to restrict Jajanken by using a special incantation: http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter150/153322-3.html

Now, knowing HXH, it's practically impossible a Manipulate user would have the personality that fits the Jajaken, but even if you halve the effectiveness, 720 is still comparable to about 4 hits from full strength, so it'll still hurt the opponent, though using 2000 AP for 720 damage has to be a pretty lousy trade.

Not only that, but the depth of the reinforcement would be different.

'Turning' all the aura into reinforcement (100% efficiency) is different from using Reinforcement itself well. A Manipulation user will always use reinforcement on a lesser level than would a reinforcement user of similar talent and training, even with equivalent AP.

E.G, a reinforcement user who uses Shuu with 20% Aura in it, and a global Aura of 2000, will be stronger than a manipulation user who uses Shuu with 50% Aura, and a global Aura of 2000.

Different examples of higher levels Reinforcement:
http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter99/153234-6.html Zeno here.
http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter306/190775-10.html Gon here.
http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter108/153248-6.html Kurapika explaining it here.

Reinforcement can be used on anything, but reinforcing anything besides your body isn't very smart usually. Take the guy in Celestial Tower who uses spinning tops as a weapon. Making the tops spin faster is reinforcement. However, if all you're doing is make them spin faster, that's not exactly useful. You've to have some way to turn it into a weapon, and you'd need Manipulate to control where these spinning tops go. Note that all the guy was able to do is make the tops spin around in random directions and hope they somehow hit someone.

That was the manipulation part.

The reinforcement part was improving the damage output.

Even for basic techniques, reinforcement only applies to stuff that's clearly related to damage. There's quite a few basic techniques that has nothing to do with damage. There's no reason to believe any school would naturally have a wider radius in the Circle ability, for example.

If any school would, it would be Transformation, and Killua sucks at it.

I think you can only reinforce physical objects, though, and not aura-based objects. If two identical users of Emission/Reinforce agreed to just shoot aura fireballs at each other, I don't think you can say "I reinforced the aura fireballs". Here you'd expect the Emission user to do more damage, though the Reinforcement user might be better able to shrug them off on the defense. Otherwise that'd make Reinforcement the God school, since you can just say "I reinforced my Manipulate ability!" "I reinforced my Materialize ability!"

Indeed. You *can* reinforce the materialized object, but not the 'materialization ability'.

Reinforcement is basically a 'make the object more effective' thing.

What does physical strength have to do with being close to reinforcement? I really don't think there is a correlation between then two in the least(not a direct one at least). Heck, nobunaga is a confirmed reinforcer and a swordsman and he is ranked 8 for arm strength in the ryodan. As for feitan, based on what we saw I would think he is a conjurer. He made the armor out of nowhere, I doubt he actually had it with him and instantaneously put it on so it has to be a conjured object at least. Emission is unlikely as the armor does not actually leave his body (the sun could be argued to be emission but the conjured armor would predate it so I would still lean towards conjuration). Transformation and reinforcement would not make sense. Since he has been mentioned to have several abilities, I get the impression he can actually conjure several armors perhaps each with different effects. Also worth noting, hisoka was about to cut the body of killua with a regular card, would it make a shred of sense that a reinforced sword could be stopped by a nen guard alone? I really don't think that makes a shred of sense. IMO a hunter would get hurt just the same as anyone else with a regular weapon in the case their nen guard is not up, I don't think the manga indicates otherwise.

Fei-tan is usually believed to be transformation, and using Pain as a source of power.

'Nen Guard', A.K.A ten, is using reinforcement. Same with KEN.

The 'nen guard' of Ten is *always* up, though real fights using require Ken.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I was not talking about the charging time. I was talking about 'first is rock'. This IS NOT charging time.

It's Gon choosing to restrict Jajanken by using a special incantation: http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter150/153322-3.html

But the time it takes him to speak is supposed to be constant. Otherwise this would mean he can reduce the restriction by simply speaking faster. Gon's been shown to be able to use this move without actually able to speak (battle against Gensuru), and he didn't take less time to prepare while not speaking, and there was no observeable change in power.

The incantation seems to be more like Leol's headphone, a timing mechanism to ensure consistency. Otherwise it'd be way too weak to have a restriction that can be reduced by simply speaking faster. It'd also be inconsistent with the time he used it without speaking at all.

Not only that, but the depth of the reinforcement would be different.

'Turning' all the aura into reinforcement (100% efficiency) is different from using Reinforcement itself well. A Manipulation user will always use reinforcement on a lesser level than would a reinforcement user of similar talent and training, even with equivalent AP.

Actually there are two ways you can calculate the number. Using 2000 damage for Reinforcement as base. Assuming everything else is completely identical with a hypothetical Manipulation Gon, is it:

1. 2000 damage * 0.6 (affinity penalty on level) * 0.6 (affinity penalty on power) = 720 damage.

2. Treating Jajaken as a X10 mod (100 base * 2.0 (Reinforcement natural mod) * 10 = 2000), the Manipulation Gon should get 100 * 1.36 * 10 = 1360. I'm assuming the special modifier does not change just because your type changed. The restriction should not be sensitive to what your base school is, though using the wrong school can lead to a further reduction due to experience. For example paper's 4000 AP -> 500 damage is way below what the formula predicts, and Knuckles say that's because Gon's inexperienced. When Gon is in adult form, his paper appears to do comparable damage compared to rock, whereas in child form the damage done by those two ability isn't even comparable (one hit kill versus swat away with one hand).

It is likely that had this Manipulation Gon existed, he might not even get to 60% due to lack of interest/training, but it has to be possible to at least hit his theoractical limit.

I think you have to include the base physical damage, which is not dependent on what type of user you are. Netero said he's declined to 50% compared to his prime. Since everyone says Netero's mastery of aura is unparalleled, I don't see how that statement can mean 'my aura ability is only half of what it used to be'. It has to mean 'my physical body has declined to 50% of my prime, so I"m limited to 50% of my prime's power".

Looking at the scale used (2000 enough to KO someone from full health), 1360 would be a respectable amount of damage. A Reinforcement user might be forced to use Kou to defend against that, or take some damage by playing safe (since a misjudged Kou can be fatal). These numbers seem inline with Shalunark's ability to control himself. There's no way he could be stronger than an equivalent Reinforcement user in this form, but if you're stuck with no other viable methods of escaping, it's still better than nothing. Although he is a Manipulation type, it seems his powerup is at least enough to give an equivalent Reinforcement user some trouble. He most likely won't win (since he doesn't even have intelligence at this point), but might be able to inflict some damage before falling.

If any school would, it would be Transformation, and Killua sucks at it.

Circle seems to be a pretty inconsistent ability relative to type. Pitou's radius is far greater than Pufu and they're only one base school apart. Neither uses much from the Transformation school. I think it might be one of those things where some people just happen to be better at it than others.

That was the manipulation part.

The reinforcement part was improving the damage output.

What good is a weapon if it can't possibly hit anything? It seems like if you want any control over a object, then Manipulation has to be the primary school that determines the effectiveness. There are no high level Reinforcement users I can think of that manipulates an object as a weapon. For that matter, most high level Reinforcement guys don't even use a weapon at all. I guess if you want to use spinning tops as visible stationary land mines, you can skimp out on the Manipulation skills, but that wouldn't exactly be a very useful weapon either.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

But the time it takes him to speak is supposed to be constant. Otherwise this would mean he can reduce the restriction by simply speaking faster. Gon's been shown to be able to use this move without actually able to speak (battle against Gensuru), and he didn't take less time to prepare while not speaking, and there was no observeable change in power.

The incantation seems to be more like Leol's headphone, a timing mechanism to ensure consistency. Otherwise it'd be way too weak to have a restriction that can be reduced by simply speaking faster. It'd also be inconsistent with the time he used it without speaking at all.

Restriction aren't just about making the technique harder, they are about expressing Belief. It's a Will thing. Gon doesn't need to say his words clearly, but he still needs to get into his position, and say the word 'first is rock' (which he did against gensuru).

He needs that, because he believes it's the right thing to do. It makes it much stronger than a absurdly limiting restrction like 'must only use kou on human' or Kurapika's Chain Jail, were Kurapika any different.

Kurapika's chain jail is so powerful not because the restriction is that limiting (it's really not), but because it fits him so well, and because he really believes in it.

Same for Netero's "Prayer". Netero can "pray" pretty much instantly now. But that doesn't mean it's not something primordial for him.

Snip about Kou and reinforcement

My point was that manipulation, when it comes to reinforcement, is 2000 x60% x 60%, first 60% for efficiency in reinforcement aura, and second 60% because of how reinforcement quality is also limited compared to a pure Reinforcement user.

Circle seems to be a pretty inconsistent ability relative to type. Pitou's radius is far greater than Pufu and they're only one base school apart. Neither uses much from the Transformation school. I think it might be one of those things where some people just happen to be better at it than others.

Yep.

What good is a weapon if it can't possibly hit anything? It seems like if you want any control over a object, then Manipulation has to be the primary school that determines the effectiveness. There are no high level Reinforcement users I can think of that manipulates an object as a weapon. For that matter, most high level Reinforcement guys don't even use a weapon at all. I guess if you want to use spinning tops as visible stationary land mines, you can skimp out on the Manipulation skills, but that wouldn't exactly be a very useful weapon either.

Manipulation is usually about infusing nen into an object in order to use it to use your manipulation ability on something else.

When it's not that, it's usually about 'programming orders' (or direct control).

Usually a weapon to hit someone else, you use Shuu reinforcement (basically, you include the weapon into your aura, which improves the weapon the same way it improves your body).

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Transforming nen into heat? I guess it is plausible however the armor itself is evidently conjured. Wouldn't it make more sense that once certain conditions are filled he conjures the armor which has that special ability?

I also have problems seeing reinforcement being simply ten, ren or ken.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_hunter/v20/c201/9.html
If using ten, ren or ken constituted reinforcement then why isn't killua's significantly weaker than gon's? Gon is an enhancer leaning towards emission yet his efficiency at that is at around 25% and yet killia being a transformation user can use reinforcement at the same efficiency as gon? Its not like this is a recent thing, from the first time killia learned ten he never seemed inferior to gon in that regard. More so, at least ten and ren are basic techniques which were in a separate categories from hatsu, they are 2 of the 4 principles. I don't see how they can be specifically part of reinforcement. I guess an argument could be made about the advanced versions of those techniques however even then it does not seem like there is an output difference between killua and gon which is inherently strange.

There is still the issue that the manga gas never said anything about gon saying "janken..." being any form of an incantation nor it ultimately resulting in a stronger nen than what would appear otherwise. The genzuru bit is more than proof enough. If the "incantation" is what you claim it is then not actually using it, not saying it, would basically mean gon did it wrong which would either result in less power being outputted or even a worst price paid as he would have broken a condition which he added to his nen (breaking a condition can result in a permanent loss of that nen).



http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_hunter/v28/c306/10.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_hunter/v28/c306/11.html

I was thinking about that particular image. I think this shows what gon intends on his rock eventually looking like once it is fully developed. Take a note that it is dramatically different from what we are used to seeing. Ordinarily to use rock gon needs to use at least ren and concentrate all of his aura around his fist. He basically converts his ren or ken into that punch. In turn what gon does in the first link is dramatically different. First he outputs and enormous amount of aura and then he concentrates it on his fist. More so, the second link shows gon's body covered with aura which should not be the case under normal circumstances since most of his aura should have gone to rock. I get the impression that rather than fulling his rock with the aura around his body he fuels it by releasing nen from his inner reserves and then concentrating them on his fist. It would effectively get rid of one of the more important weaknesses of the technique as he would be able to charge it without lowering the rest of his defenses.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Transforming nen into heat? I guess it is plausible however the armor itself is evidently conjured. Wouldn't it make more sense that once certain conditions are filled he conjures the armor which has that special ability?

I also have problems seeing reinforcement being simply ten, ren or ken.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_hunter/v20/c201/9.html
If using ten, ren or ken constituted reinforcement then why isn't killua's significantly weaker than gon's? Gon is an enhancer leaning towards emission yet his efficiency at that is at around 25% and yet killia being a transformation user can use reinforcement at the same efficiency as gon? Its not like this is a recent thing, from the first time killia learned ten he never seemed inferior to gon in that regard. More so, at least ten and ren are basic techniques which were in a separate categories from hatsu, they are 2 of the 4 principles.

It seems you don't remember that 'Hatsu exercise' are basically using Ren on water, and that Gon's kou is basically using Ren solely on his fist.

Also, Killua's Ken is significantly less reinforced than Gon's- it's not *weaker* though. It's just that Killua's Aura is only as Reinforced as 80% of someone with an equivalent Aura mass.

I don't see how they can be specifically part of reinforcement. I guess an argument could be made about the advanced versions of those techniques however even then it does not seem like there is an output difference between killua and gon which is inherently strange.

Output = ! = Efficiency.

There is still the issue that the manga gas never said anything about gon saying "janken..." being any form of an incantation nor it ultimately resulting in a stronger nen than what would appear otherwise. The genzuru bit is more than proof enough. If the "incantation" is what you claim it is then not actually using it, not saying it, would basically mean gon did it wrong which would either result in less power being outputted or even a worst price paid as he would have broken a condition which he added to his nen (breaking a condition can result in a permanent loss of that nen).

Because he kept his condition. He did say it, it just was mangled.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_hunter/v28/c306/10.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_hunter/v28/c306/11.html

I was thinking about that particular image. I think this shows what gon intends on his rock eventually looking like once it is fully developed. Take a note that it is dramatically different from what we are used to seeing. Ordinarily to use rock gon needs to use at least ren and concentrate all of his aura around his fist. He basically converts his ren or ken into that punch. In turn what gon does in the first link is dramatically different. First he outputs and enormous amount of aura and then he concentrates it on his fist. More so, the second link shows gon's body covered with aura which should not be the case under normal circumstances since most of his aura should have gone to rock. I get the impression that rather than fulling his rock with the aura around his body he fuels it by releasing nen from his inner reserves and then concentrating them on his fist. It would effectively get rid of one of the more important weaknesses of the technique as he would be able to charge it without lowering the rest of his defenses.

It doesn't show his whole body covered with Aura.

It shows The aura in his fist, except seen from above it can look like covering his whole body, as it's so massive.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Ko is the enhanced form of gyo which concentrates aura in a particular area of the body. Ren is basically a higher than normal output of aura and ken is the superior version of that.

Also, from what we saw with gon using emission, his emission attack required the same amount of power or more to make than rock however its actual power once finished was significantly diminished. If the same applied to a transmutter doing enhancement then killua's ren or ken would have had to be necessarily dramatically inferior to gon's yet that was never the case. Nen in itself us not reinforced either, you reinforce your body or an object so in that regard you can't have a less reinforced nen (perhaps a more concentrated one though). If enhancement worked in the manner described then it would take significant training for a non enhancer to be able to use even a mediocre ren yet anyone can do that from the moment they awaken their nen and control it. Enhancement working that way would also imply that for a nen enhancer merely using ren would imply a massive waste of energy almost regardless of the nen type they actually are. I would think that the release of nen from the body along with the basic non hatsu techniques and their advanced forms should be 100% achievable to anyone hence why they are separated from the hatsu area.

---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------

To be honest my current impression is that enhancement refers to an users capacity to concentrate nen in a single point. In that regard using ten, ren, ken and ryo does not qualify as using reinforcement since power is not being concentrated but rather its output is being controlled. Gyo is perhaps not concentrated enough to qualify as enhancement but in turn ko, which concentrates all of the aura around your body in one point would. That people other than enhancers could not use something as basic as ren or ken with complete efficiency does not make sense IMO however that a large concentration of nen would result in dramatically diminishing returns for a non enhancer makes a lot more sense.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I think the problem is that you are thinking too hard that Aura reinforcing the body = it's only for that.

It's true that Ken is in melee, but that doesn't mean that the Ken from a Materialization user would look any smaller than the one from a Reinforcement user.

It just means that only 60% of that Ken would be considered Reinforcement in the first case, while 100% of that would be considered Reinforcement in the second.

Basically, if Gon and Killua both have a constant aura of 2000, Gon has 2000 in Reinforcement in them, and Killua has 2000x80% = 1600.

However, both would look the same.

Btw, Ko isn't the enhanced form of Gyo. Ko is the enhanced form of Ren, Zetsu, and Gyo.

Gyo is usually used with Ren anyway, btw.

And 'Ken' Itself is also usually used with Gyo, as Ken gives 50Def/50Attack. When you use Ken with Gyo, it's called Ryuu, and it can do things like 20def/80Attack, or the opposite.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Output is a matter of training + special. Netero's Zero does far more damage than his normal Kannon, and it's basically a more powerful Kannon. If he can merely focus more power into a regular Kannon, why would he need to use the Zero which carries a nasty side effect? The normal Kannon represents Netero's maximum output without additional penalty. He seems to be capble of using Kannon hundreds of time, and he said he expected barely a scratch from the Kannon. So is he stupid just doing hundreds of negligible damage instead of focus all his aura in one strike? No, it's because it's physically impossible for him to increase his output without a nasty side effect.

Output has nothing to do with affinity at all. Jajaken uses exact same total amount of AP for the three schools it represents. This is stated by Knuckles, and it's one of the key weakness of his Jajaken that no matter what technique uses, it consumes the same amount of total AP. Gon's paper and scissor does far less damage due to inexperience in these schools, but still charges him the same total AP as his devastating rock. Now why would he ever use anything but rock? Because if you only use rock it's too predictable, though for the most part Gon pretty much only uses rock, and only mixes it up when he needs the element of surprise.

Gon's trademark is always his ridiculous output power. He's fighting guys who are way stronger than him (Gensuru, Razor, Knuckles, Morel), and most of them panic just seeing the amount of power he's gathering up, before he even attacked! The inefficiency argument may apply to all attack minus rock, but rock is just a straight up punch and I don't see how you can be inefficient at that. Knuckles said if he blocked the wrong area he could've died the first time he encountered Gon. At that point he has never seen him actually attack, so that estimate has to be soley based on the damage that should be done by the amount of AP gathered. Given the attack knocked him out in one hit, it seems consistent with his estimate (he did block correctly). It'd be completely meaningless to measure power if it was possible to be more than 100% efficient. In that case you can see someone gather a tiny amount of power and then kill you in one hit because that guy was 100000% effective at converting AP to damage. And if Gon's rock which is the simplest action possible (put aura on fist and punch) isn't 100% effective at converting AP to power , I'm not sure what can possibly be 100%.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

. It'd be completely meaningless to measure power if it was possible to be more than 100% efficient. In that case you can see someone gather a tiny amount of power and then kill you in one hit because that guy was 100000% effective at converting AP to damage. And if Gon's rock which is the simplest action possible (put aura on fist and punch) isn't 100% effective at converting AP to power , I'm not sure what can possibly be 100%.

Was that for me?

Anyway, if it was, Rock definitely uses 100% reinforcement. However, there is a difference in the 'quality' of reinforcement. now, it's possible that the difference in the quality of reinforcement has more to do with a stable output than a max outpout, but given that there are clear example of higher-end reinforcement ability, i doubt it.

So, i am not talking about 100000% efficiency, i am talking about 100% efficiciency with a Kou that also uses a high-quality Reinforcement.

And, yes, this High-quality reinforcement can be seen quite easily from outside, even beyond Aura Mass.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

It is true that paper was that much weaker than rock due to inexperience however it was also attributed to gon not being an emitter. Gon will eventually master the technique and improve its output however it can never be as strong as his rock simply because it is not his category. In this regard, output of a hatsu is indeed affected by the nen type you have. Also, I did not get the impression that gon's paper had the same amount of power as his rock but for some reason it packed a less powerful punch. Gon did use the same amount of power as with rock to make it however what actually came out of that effort was something significantly weaker. Knuckle was able to discern merely by observing the attack that it was weaker. He did not say "it has 2000 worth of power but hits for 500" he simply said it was MUCH weaker.

Now, the reverse should also be true. If gon was an emitter he should be capable of using a very powerful paper while in turn his rock would be dramatically weaker right? He could master his reinforcement however in itself his reinforced punch would never be as strong as his paper.

Now, if ten, ren or ken in itself counts as reinforcement how would the same not apply? Now, if the same applies it provides another issue for other nen types. How would they use their own hatsus if their ken is innately weaker due to it not being part of their affinity? The energy around their body, which they need to fuel their hatsu, would be weaker than that of a reinforcement by default which simply cannot be right. This is why I just can't see ten, ren, or ken counting as reinforcement, they have to be generic skills which any type can use at 100% by default through training.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

It is true that paper was that much weaker than rock due to inexperience however it was also attributed to gon not being an emitter. Gon will eventually master the technique and improve its output however it can never be as strong as his rock simply because it is not his category. In this regard, output of a hatsu is indeed affected by the nen type you have. Also, I did not get the impression that gon's paper had the same amount of power as his rock but for some reason it packed a less powerful punch. Gon did use the same amount of power as with rock to make it however what actually came out of that effort was something significantly weaker. Knuckle was able to discern merely by observing the attack that it was weaker. He did not say "it has 2000 worth of power but hits for 500" he simply said it was MUCH weaker.

Now, the reverse should also be true. If gon was an emitter he should be capable of using a very powerful paper while in turn his rock would be dramatically weaker right? He could master his reinforcement however in itself his reinforced punch would never be as strong as his paper.

Now, if ten, ren or ken in itself counts as reinforcement how would the same not apply? Now, if the same applies it provides another issue for other nen types. How would they use their own hatsus if their ken is innately weaker due to it not being part of their affinity? The energy around their body, which they need to fuel their hatsu, would be weaker than that of a reinforcement by default which simply cannot be right. This is why I just can't see ten, ren, or ken counting as reinforcement, they have to be generic skills which any type can use at 100% by default through training.

I'm not sure how you can possibly get the conclusion that paper consumes less total AP. It says flat out here Paper consumes 4000 AP for 500 damage:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_hunter/v20/c211/5.html

The amount of AP you can consume is not tied to what school you are. If you're bad at a school, expect to get nothing useful out of your effect, but you're still charged the full amount of AP. Gon generated 500 points of damage with 4000 AP consumed for paper. It even tells you why: affinity + general inexperience with school.

If we assume all the Royals are of the same basic level, we already know Pitou's circle radius is far greater than Pufu, and Yupi sure doesn't look like he's even aware of what circle means. Looking at the distance drawn, it looks like Pitou's radius is at least 5 times bigger. However, this doesn't mean when Pufu's circle requires 1/5th the amount to maintain. If they both use circle at the same time, it has to consume whatever is considered standard for a character of their power. Killua's radius is 57cm. This doesn't mean he is only using less than 1/1000th the AP to maintain it compared to Pitou's circle that can reach up to 2KM. In the case of circle we have no idea what it's affinity needs are, but there's no way Pufu's radius is shorter than Pitou simply because he's using less AP, since he wanted to cover a larger area if it was at all possible.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I didn't say AT ALL that paper consumes less nen than rock.

Gon did use the same amount of power as with rock

I wrote that in my post. Ok, I made a mistake there, gon uses even more power than with rock and hits for way less but I still did not say paper is any less power consuming than rock.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Was that for me?

Anyway, if it was, Rock definitely uses 100% reinforcement. However, there is a difference in the 'quality' of reinforcement. now, it's possible that the difference in the quality of reinforcement has more to do with a stable output than a max outpout, but given that there are clear example of higher-end reinforcement ability, i doubt it.

So, i am not talking about 100000% efficiency, i am talking about 100% efficiciency with a Kou that also uses a high-quality Reinforcement.

And, yes, this High-quality reinforcement can be seen quite easily from outside, even beyond Aura Mass.

Putting aura on your fist and punch seems to be the simplest task with Reinforcement in HXH. Let's call maximum efficiency for task means you convert 1 AP of aura for 1 point of damage, delivered via your fist. You're a natural Reinforcement so no additional penalty issue to worry about.

I'm saying just because you become higher level in Reinforcement doesn't mean you can ever get past this cap of 1 AP -> 1 point of damage. You might be able to reinforce other stuff that's considered 'hard to reinforce' and still deliver the same ratio. You might be able to tack on beneficial side effects at negligible cost. But if I see you gather 5000 AP, then 5000 damage is the maximum damage you can deliver.

Adult Gon has clearly mastered all the related schools (his paper vaporzied Pitou). He can gather an unfathomable amount of AP at once, but let's say he gathered 50K AP for rock, then his damage is still limited to 50K. It can't go up to say, 500K, just because he's now a higher level at Reinforcement. If this isn't the case, there's no point to judge anything based on amount of AP gathered, because then someone can gather 200 AP (no big deal) and convert it to 2000 damage (one hit KO versus Knuckles). Yet the characters in HXH clearly look at the amount of AP gathered as an estimate for the power of the impending attack. Against a high level Reinforcement user, you might expect his 5000 AP to do carry side effects on top of damage, but his damage threshold should never exceed 5000 damage.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Was that for me?

Anyway, if it was, Rock definitely uses 100% reinforcement. However, there is a difference in the 'quality' of reinforcement. now, it's possible that the difference in the quality of reinforcement has more to do with a stable output than a max outpout, but given that there are clear example of higher-end reinforcement ability, i doubt it.

So, i am not talking about 100000% efficiency, i am talking about 100% efficiciency with a Kou that also uses a high-quality Reinforcement.

And, yes, this High-quality reinforcement can be seen quite easily from outside, even beyond Aura Mass.

That would bring us back to what is reinforcement though. Now you are separating ken from reinforcement at least given how you phrased things meaning that ken in itself is not reinforcement. Of course, this would mean we are reinforcing aura which in turn does not make much sense. You use aura to reinforce your body or objects but what is it that reinforces aura? I don't think you can have reinforced aura. To me the only logical conclusion that that "reinforcement" consists of concentrating aura on something, not just putting aura on it (shu does not concentrate aura on an object, rather you simply extend your ten over it). Take gon, his rock (which is pure and generic reinforcement) is simply his entire ken concentrated in his fist, ko which as bisk explains is a special power which is many tens of time stronger than a regular punch with nen in it.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

That would bring us back to what is reinforcement though. Now you are separating ken from reinforcement at least given how you phrased things meaning that ken in itself is not reinforcement. Of course, this would mean we are reinforcing aura which in turn does not make much sense. You use aura to reinforce your body or objects but what is it that reinforces aura? I don't think you can have reinforced aura. To me the only logical conclusion that that "reinforcement" consists of concentrating aura on something, not just putting aura on it (shu does not concentrate aura on an object, rather you simply extend your ten over it). Take gon, his rock (which is pure and generic reinforcement) is simply his entire ken concentrated in his fist, ko which as bisk explains is a special power which is many tens of time stronger than a regular punch with nen in it.

Reinforcement increase the physical offense and defense of a physical object.

The generic aura guard boosts both physical offense and defense, so it'd benefit from Reinforcement. A Reinforcement user's guard is more powerful compared to any other school's guard assuming all else is equal.

Circle, on the other hand, has nothing to do with physical offense and defense, and there's no evidence Reinforcement users have wider radius for the ability. Pitou is as far away from Reinforcement as you can physically be, but his circle has a wider radius than any character (minus perhaps Meryem) in HXH. It's also wider than the other two Royal guards, who presumably are of comparable level to him.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Of course reinforcements does that but that "definition" by no means gives the exact scope of it. Don't you think that killua should have been specifically told that his ren of ken would be inherently weaker than the ren or ken of an enhancer? He was never told such a thing, such a thing was never even vaguely implied.

Also, I think that second paragraph is illogical. Reinforcement does boost offense and defense however that does not mean that generic skills have to be from reinforcement. By that simple logic a conjured shield and sword would also be reinforcement since they would boost offense and defense. Lets say we have two people with the same physical capacity and nen skill. One is an enhancer and the other a conjurer. Has the manga ever said that in a direct, non hatsu, confrontation the conjurer would have an innately inferior ren or ken? It most definitely hasn't and that is a huge assumption considering ken is a must in any mid level battle and ren is something EVERY hunter must train for all their lives to become stronger.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

An observation. HXH notes that Reinforcement is the premier school for fighting in HXH. This is because hand-to-hand combat dominates the vast majority of fights in HXH and if you can Reinforce your body better than anyone else, you already start on a significant edge. This isn't some kind of universal truth. It's only true because HXH is focused on hand-to-hand combat.

If the dominant form of fighting in HXH is two guys throw aura fireballs at each other like DBZ or a Street Fighter game, Reinforcement would no longer be the premier school. You'd hear people say, "Look at that fool try to power up his own body when he should be working on throwing bigger aura fireballs!"

If the dominant form of fighting in HXH involves two guys controlling a Pokemon to beat each other up, the dominant school would be Manipulation. Now you'd hear people say "Look at that fool try to throw an aura fireball when its power is meaningless compared to controlling your Pokemon more effectively!"

I think the whole point of the election arc is to show that combat doesn't have to be hand-to-hand in nature. At least I sure don't see Pariston start punching things to death. Reinforcement would be pretty much useless in politics, for example, and it seems like Pariston's political pull is just as deadly as physical force.

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:26 PM ----------

Of course reinforcements does that but that "definition" by no means gives the exact scope of it. Don't you think that killua should have been specifically told that his ren of ken would be inherently weaker than the ren or ken of an enhancer? He was never told such a thing, such a thing was never even vaguely implied.

Also, I think that second paragraph is illogical. Reinforcement does boost offense and defense however that does not mean that generic skills have to be from reinforcement. By that simple logic a conjured shield and sword would also be reinforcement since they would boost offense and defense. Lets say we have two people with the same physical capacity and nen skill. One is an enhancer and the other a conjurer. Has the manga ever said that in a direct, non hatsu, confrontation the conjurer would have an innately inferior ren or ken? It most definitely hasn't and that is a huge assumption considering ken is a must in any mid level battle and ren is something EVERY hunter must train for all their lives to become stronger.

Err, the basic techniques are just that, basic. It's stuff everyone learns automatically as they get more powerful. So just because you're less effective at it doesn't mean you stop trying. Besides, due to HXH's dependence on special moves, the fact that you've an overwhelming base disadvantage is less important than you think. When's the last time you see two guys fight it out using only basic skills? Shalunark controls himself as a last ditch move. This is essentially a Manipulation using attempting to use Reinforcement (autopilot Shalunark uses only physical moves). If this move is so weak that he can't even expect to beat an equivalent Reinforcement user using no special moves, then he might as well slit his own throat and save the embarssment. You can surmise that his move is expected to at least force an equivalent user to take him seriously. Of course he can't expect to match a Reinforcement user's physical power, but it can't be so weak that a Reinforcement user can just beat his autopilot form with basic moves. Otherwise that move would be a joke.

A conjured object is no longer physical so Reinforcement will not apply to it. There is a very distinct difference between 'physical object' and 'an aura object that looks physical'. Shizuku cannot vaccum any aura object even if they appear to be normal physical object.

Let's take chains as an example. If you materialize some chains, then its power is determined by Materialize school. A Reinforcement user can pick up some real chains and swing it around for great damage, but it's hard to imagine anybody actually get defeated by such a primitive attack. A Manipulation user would be able to control the chains with great precision and other side effects, but it wouldn't be powerful. Of course, if your side effect is 'paralyze', then the chains never need to do much damage in the first place.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Fights with basic skills are quite common. Remember knuckle? His life depends on his 1 on 1 skills for the most part. If his ken was innately inferior to that of an enhancer of the same level then winning against that enhancer is virtually impossible and he was exceptionally stupid when making such a technique. In turn if ten, ren or ken are 100% effective on any kind of user then knuckle has a decent chance of pulling it off since he would actually simply have to take care of attacks which are actually reinforced. Killia uses his basic skills in every fight he is in. His electricity was not even useful until a while ago. All the royal guards used melee combat (even if puppets or weird bodies are part of the mix).


Actually I would think you can use reinforcement on an conjured object. Conjured objects are real physical objects, that much is manga fact. Of course, a conjurer would get very little benefit at very high cost from doing this though. If this was a transformed object (say that one nen bow or the numbers made by bisk) then reinforcement probably would not work on it since it would imply you can reinforce nen however with conjured objects you are talking about real physical objects. If I recall, didn't kurapica use his nen to reinforce his chain when uvo was trapped? And didn't he use reinforcement on a chain to heal himself? This works because kurapica can actually use 100% of all categories.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Let's take some Transformation users and see how they fight against Reinforcement users, or just guys who simply possess higher physical strength overall.

Hisoka's bubblegum can be defeated by anyone who is stronger than him, since it goes both ways. Is this a useless move against a physically stronger opponent? No. Kastro is a Reinforcement user, and it seems to imply his physical strength is quite bit higher than Hisoka (he chop an arm off easily). But look at where Hisoka stick the bubblegum aura at: his jaws. Just because the opponent is physically stronger doesn't mean he can pull you with his jaw muscles compared to your hand. He did the same against Gon. Hisoka sticks his bubblegum aura around places where the user is cannot apply force easily. Note that this is also why he immediately broke off the bubblegum where Razor's clone #13 caught his ball. Clone #13 clearly is physically stronger than Hisoka, so all clone #13 has to do is pull on the ball, and it'll yank Hisoka over and then he can throw the ball in his face for an easy hit.

Feitan's special ability converts stored damage to heat. We know Zanza has way higher physical defense compared to him (Feitan's Kou did no damage to Zanza), but the heat still killed her. It's clear that this heat attack bypasses physical defense. I'm guessing the balancing factor here is that since every member of the Spiders evacuated on time, including those who are injuried, it'd actually be pretty hard to use this attack to hit someone who isn't dumb and just watching you do it. Still, if he gets this move off, it can bypass the physical defense of his opponent.

Killua uses lightning. It can stun Yupi, who is a Reinforcement user more than 10 times as powerful as Killua (Yupi said it himself, and no reason to believe he's lying). Therefore lightning is not something that can be defended physically, and stun is a huge advantage. It's not like a Reinforcement user's body is indestructible. If Killua wasn't fighting two beings with incomprehensible physical durability (Yupi and Pufu), he can easily hit the weak points of an opponent, or just snap their neck, during the time they're stunned by lightning. Again, a Reinforcement user isn't going to have a stronger neck compared to a Transformer's hands. He might be able to Reinforce his neck better, but it's still a weak spot that should be easily defeated. Let's say Killua just tried to poke a Reinforcement user's eyeballs out. We can actually assume the eyeballs of a Reinforcement would be stronger than any other school, but the point is the eyeball is still so weak that it wouldn't matter you can reinforce it better than anyone else.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I don't quite see the point of your post obviously transformation users have more elaborate hatsus than enhancers-without skimping themselves on the physical part (and I doubt feitan is really a transformation user considering the armor is obviously conjured). I also have my doubts about kastro being physically stronger than hisoka.Half the stuff hisoka did (including his mutilated arms) were done to destroy the guy mentally and for the fun of it. If he had been more serious he would have not have to go that far once he figured out the clone IMO and he could have taken kastro with melee combat.