Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

Phantron

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well Pitou certainly was born as a Special (he literally did the test 5 minutes after he was born). If you're born as Special, for the system to make sense you'd have to be 40% on Reinforcement, 80% Manipulation, and so on. I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if you change your type permanently at some point (Kurapika is only temporary), since we got no example of anybody who's like that. I'd assume if you started out as a Reinforcement and permanently changed to Specialization, you must lose something in the process. Otherwise type change would be a huge advantage if you retained your original skills assuming you maxed them out prior to the change.
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Specialization isn't a school by itself- it an addition.

Someone is materialization that became specialization, or manipulation that became specialziation.

WHAT? He makes his aura a damn all-kicking-asses electricity. He doesn't suck at it AT ALL.
Killua suck at En.
 

Phantron

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Specialization isn't a school by itself- it an addition.

Someone is materialization that became specialization, or manipulation that became specialziation.



Killua suck at En.
Pitou was born as Specialization, unless his type changed in the 5 minutes between his birth to when he did the test.
 

Jack Van Burace

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Imo, Specialization is represented by conditions and benefits from these. Materialization and Manipulation are the best suited to get benefits from conditions, while Reinforcement should never attempt it. Furthermore, Special Hatsus usually are all conditions over conditions, such as Chloro's steps to taking one's ability and how to use it (that book of his could be Materialization, for instance) or Neon's conditions for predicting the future.

Of course it is a Hatsu type entirely different as well, but I like to think about it as manifesting into others as the conditions and benefits one may gain when putting them in their Hatsus. The usefulness distribution that this practice has along the schools supports this: Gon shouldn't, but Kurapica had to use it, as the first is opposing to it and the latter's school is right next to it.

So, Reinforcement should never use conditions (40% efficiency), Emission and Transformation surely have some degree (60%) of conditioning (Lazer's game was full of rules), and Manipulation and Materialization use it all the time despite not being the main thing (80% efficiency). Specialization would be entirely about rules and what's born from them (100%). The chance of learning wouldn't apply since the conditions and benefits are born from experiences one has in life, not actually learned, so it would be always 0%.
 
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kkck

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well Pitou certainly was born as a Special (he literally did the test 5 minutes after he was born). If you're born as Special, for the system to make sense you'd have to be 40% on Reinforcement, 80% Manipulation, and so on. I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if you change your type permanently at some point (Kurapika is only temporary), since we got no example of anybody who's like that. I'd assume if you started out as a Reinforcement and permanently changed to Specialization, you must lose something in the process. Otherwise type change would be a huge advantage if you retained your original skills assuming you maxed them out prior to the change.
I don't think you would lose anything if you become a specialization. Mainly because there are no rules when it comes to the thing to begin with. It is something innate, something inherent, something which just kinda happens as the manga has put it. Is it unfair? Pretty much but in turn it is something so rare that it kinda makes sense. Lets see how this would apply to netero now.

His ability cannot be conjured because there is no material on earth that could possibly take on something as powerful as the king without some serious restrictions to it. We had no reason to believe there were any conditions to the thing to begin with. In that regard the thing has to be made out of nen. However the thing also has a definite shape. In that regard we are talking about it having a element to it. He is also manipulating it since the thing is obviously following what netero makes it do. Now, if netero is an enhancer we are talking about him developing the power to flatten mountains with a hatsu which uses non of his main type and lot of two nen types for which he can only get 80% and one he can only acquire at 60%. As an emission this nen would be plausible given the high acquisition rate for manipulation and the limited transformation it would require would make sense. If netero is an enhancer then I would think the insanity he sank into for years and subsequent illumination which followed resulted in him naturally acquiring a specialization technique. I don't see any other reasonable explanation for his technique. If he really developed it because his enhanced body became weaker than his emitted attacks then I really can't imagine what kinda destruction he could have been able to bring about if he put his mind to it in his youth. His kou alone would be so grossly overpowered it is unreal...
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

I don't try to estimate character's power by the size of the wreckage they made because if you go by that measure, there are very few people who made a bigger wreckage than Ubogin, even guys who seem like they ought to be stronger. For example, Razor's ball when deflected to the ceiling just made a small hole. Shouldn't that blow up the whole building? At any rate, an attack that flattened mountains did no appreciable damage to Meryem, so relative to the guy he was fighting, Netero's move wasn't particularly powerful and fits with his self-claimed '50% of prime'. The exact details of the Kannon isn't that important, since whatever % of his prime that represents, it has to be considerably weaker than his prime or he wouldn't be lamenting about that in the first place. Remember, Netero said all along he expected the Kannon to do little damage to Meryem, so it's expected, and I'd say it's expected precisely because Netero knows he's far from his prime right now.
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Pitou was very clearly a Specialization that follows Materialization rules.

By that, i mean that beyond his unique specialization power, his affinities are the same as a materialization nen-user.

'Specialization' is just a unique ability 'added' to your nen, it's not really its own category.
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

I don't think pitou's nen had an affinity to materialization. Actually the manga gives conclusive proof that it is not. Materialized objects have the quality of being real objects which can be seen by normal people. Pitou's puppets could not be seen by normal people, he actually used them to manipulate a nation's leader and a number of soldiers and no one saw them.

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

I don't try to estimate character's power by the size of the wreckage they made because if you go by that measure, there are very few people who made a bigger wreckage than Ubogin, even guys who seem like they ought to be stronger. For example, Razor's ball when deflected to the ceiling just made a small hole. Shouldn't that blow up the whole building? At any rate, an attack that flattened mountains did no appreciable damage to Meryem, so relative to the guy he was fighting, Netero's move wasn't particularly powerful and fits with his self-claimed '50% of prime'. The exact details of the Kannon isn't that important, since whatever % of his prime that represents, it has to be considerably weaker than his prime or he wouldn't be lamenting about that in the first place. Remember, Netero said all along he expected the Kannon to do little damage to Meryem, so it's expected, and I'd say it's expected precisely because Netero knows he's far from his prime right now.
As far as raw power goes I would think the comparison is relevant. Obviously not all battles are decided by that. The situation of netero being an enhancer and at the same time going in an entirely different direction reminds me of the kastro situation. He was also an enhancer but developed a hatsu which did not suit him. Ling made a point of saying he would have been better of developing enhancement which suited him more by quite a bit to say the least. Its the same situation, if netero was an enhancer but instead made a hatsu which used emission, transformation and manipulation then the same would apply and would have still been better of developing an enhancement related hatsu. It would be a safe assumption that in any scenario he would have had superior offense and defense since enhancers have those attributes which other classes do not (specially in his prime).
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Gon went away from Enhancement with Paper and Scissors, and that was ok. Why couldn't Netero have a move based in a lot of other Hatsu types, just like Gon's uses others? It's natural that a Hunter develops other Hatsu types accordingly to their affinity, and an Expert like Netero would certainly know quite a few of every Hatsu there is.

I don't think Netero abandoned Reinforcement, just like Gon, and just developed others as well. That blast from Kanon wasn't just aura being thrown, I bet it was Reinforced to cause damage.

I also suppose that Emitters often use Reinforcement applyed to long-range attacks, in order to increase damage that Nen bullets do, and manipulation applyed to creating "Nen bodies" (Lazer's devils). Regular aura wouldn't take shape and move independently so well without manipulation. Emission mostly just works with distances by itself, it shouldn't make refined movements that Lazer's devils were able to do.

Lazer is a good example of how much a Hunter needs to learn other Hatsu types to become complete. I'm sure Netero could do everything reasonably well besides Specialization. It would have been stranger if he was limited to Reinforcement like Ubogin, using others as well suits him.
 
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kkck

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

I still don't think you can reinforce aura with aura. Aura is used to reinforce other things, how exactly would it work when it comes to reinforce aura itself? To me that sounds like trying to get water wetter with water..... lol

But you have to consider gon does use reinforcement with rock. On the other hand the statue not being a specialization or a real object which could be enhanced with nen would imply netero developed a hatsu which does not use his affinity at all. As we saw with kastro, this is bad, very VERY bad. Even if netero maxes emission, transformation and manipulation the fact of the matter would be that using enhancement would have yielded better results. Thats not even debatable, thats manga fact.
 

Uriel

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

We have to remember that Kastro had insufficient memory. It's not like he's the prime example of multiple school techniques. I mean...If we look at Biscuit we could realize that every school is able to be trained and used in one technique regardless the penalties as long as it fits you and you train for it.
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

There is a difference between using multiple schools and using all schools but yours. Kastro did the latter and got terrible results (the insufficient memory part is not an actual justification, it just added to the disaster he made). The manga still pointed out kastro made a mistake (not a thing of perspective, not a thing of opinion, he was just outright wrong to make the hatsu he did) and he would have been far better off focusing on your own nen type. The scenario we are suggesting is the same. By focusing on emission, transformation and manipulation to use a hatsu without even including the one he had an affinity for netero worked twice as hard as he would normally have to and still could not possibly get the same results he would have gotten from using his actual affinity. In this particular scenario netero would have actually sacrificed the perfect offense and defense enhancement gets you for... less offense and defense. There is nothing wrong with using several schools however you still have to use and focus on your main one to get the best possible results.
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

There's no rule saying you shouldn't diversify, but it'd make no sense if a guy who was said to be the strongest man in HXH during his prime, who is a natural Reinforcement, got there by using a move that is definitely not Reinforcement. Some may even argue the Kannon is Materialization/Manipulation, but whatever it is, it sure isn't even primarily a Reinforcement ability if you assume aura itself cannot be reinforced.

Actually Kastro's clone brings up a good point. Hisoka says the clone will always have clean cloths since it's created by aura. This seems to suggest that the clones are fixed at some constant power level and do not reflect the state of the user. So if Kastro became a frail old man, maybe his clone would still retain some decent power. Thus, even though he learned a bad ability, it might still be a good move to use if his physical body has declined to the point where he is no longer capable of meaningful physical combat.

I think it goes something like this. In his prime, Netero may be able to punch for 1000 damage, and Kannon does 640 damage (assume Emission only, modified by 0.8^2). At this point, he never needed to use the Kannon. In his flashback, there was no visible statue, even though Emission based objects can be seen by anyone. In all his flashback scenes, Netero always appeared to be fighting people at point blank range, not the mid range game he used against Meryem.

As he gets older, his physical prowess declined. According to him, he's at 50% of his prime. This means his punch only does 500 damage even reinforced. However, the Kannon still does 640 damage because it's not a physical object. Maybe he lost some total AP due to age too, but that just reduces the number of time he can use it, not the damage. In essence you can say his Reinforcement declined to 50% because his physical body declined to 50%, so at this point it'd be better to use other techniques. Of course, he still must pay the inefficient AP penalty, but since he already expects Meryem to have exceptional defense, being efficient while doing even less damage isn't going to even have a chance of winning, so he's got no choice here.
 

kkck

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

But that leads us to the idea that netero developed a hatsu which did not suit him to begin with. How strange is that? Unless he developed that hatsu exclusively because he was getting old however that is kinda weird too. Besides, can you even develop abilities indiscriminately? Wouldn't there be somewhat dire consequences to developing abilities indiscriminately such as a reduction in power to them?

More so, does it make sense that netero's emitted, transmutted, conjured statue is stronger than netero's reinforced body? In a best case scenario, exactly how fast can the statue attack? Since the statue is controlled by netero's prayers the maximun speed it can have is the speed at which netero completes his prayers. In this regard the statue can NEVER be faster than netero himself. The statue itself is in fact just as fast as netero himself, if anything it could even be a bit slower so as to follow netero (although I doubt that is the case). So, if netero is an enhancer which would be stronger and faster, the attack and defense from the statue or the attack and defense of netero? Regardless of netero not being as physically powerful as before netero's defense and offense with enhancement techniques should be stronger than the offense and defense of a hatsu which does not suit him. The way I see it, as long as netero can move freely the odds of the statue surpassing his defense or offense are astronomically low, if not impossible considering the multiplier of using techniques such as ko (even with the risk) is many tens of times against the force of nen alone which is what the statue is made of. Then we have to consider the reduced power the technique would have due to using solely nen types with which he is not compatible.
 
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Phantron

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

I think you can safely assume Netero has already learned up to his limit in all schools by the time he's done with his prayer training. He can pray and then just punch directly (flashback shows he is still praying, without the statue), or he can pray and then channel that energy into a statue. Just like Adult Gon's paper and rock seems equally developed, he can use at least Emission (assuming this is type for Kannon) and Reinforcement to the maximum of his ability. Now, in his prime, he has no particular reason to rely on Emission. You certainly don't see him trying to put distance between himself and his enemy in the flashbacks, and it make sense. He is already the strongest man in HXH during his prime. He is surely capable of dodging, blocking, or even just withstanding any conceiveable attack his opponent might throw at him.

I don't think Kannon is something he developed to combat old age. It's just something he always learned, that he has no particular need for until he's old. It'd be the same case with Gon too, if you assume his adult form represents his peak. Eventually his physical power will decline, and his rock will go down in damage, but paper should retain its power since it's not a physical attack.

I'm sure he can still punch just as fast the Kannon, but what would be the point if his punch now does less damage? We know Meryem is practically unscratched from the Kannon, which has to represent his maximum damage at that point. Also, don't forget that he is fighting against beings with incomparable physical defense and durability. If there are two Neteros hitting each other with Kannons I'm sure both of them will probably die after 10 hits (neither can dodge each other's attacks). Refer to Killua versus Machi in the darkness, where Machi trapped Killua's hand with her muscles. The difference between the two is far smaller than the physical difference between Netero and Meryem or even a Royal Guard.

Even if Netero can have enough power to say blow off an arm off a Royal or Meryem in one punch, given Royals and Meryem are totally fearless, all this might do is given them for a chance to counterattack. During the Razor arc, against the boxing guy we're told that the optimal strategy for an Emission user is to keep distance in limited space (i.e. boxing ring) and this sure looks like Netero's strategy. Hand-to-hand, given his opponent's strength and his physical decline, is probably just too risky since he cannot possibly expect to exchange hits with these guys. He might be able to do that in his prime, but not at 50% of his prime.
 

kkck

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

But the way you describe it you make it sound as if netero acquired 100% emission, 100% transmutation and 100% manipulation which is as we know impossible. Even maxing out his capacity at those would not allow him to reach the same level as enhancement, basically under any scenario his enhancement is superior to his emission, manipulation and transformation. Obviously going up against the king with his physical body would have been a bad idea but the idea that hyakushiki kannon, the technique which even zeno stated was netero's strongest would have been useful only once in his life is outright strange.

More so, that still does not chance that enhancement techniques increase the power by many, many times, bisk even described the power of ko as being many tens of times stronger than a regular attack. So, regardless of whether netero is in his prime, what would be more powerful, an enhanced attack of netero or an attack from the statue? The statue is made of as much as netero has available and so are his enhanced attacks. The statue assuming it is emitted, transmuted and manipulated can only attack as hard as the speed it has times the amount of nen in the amounts of limbs it has less the result of using a bunch of non-primary nen types. In turn an enhanced attack will have 100%of what is expected from the nen in it plus times the speed it has times the multiplier inherent to reinforced attacks. Same could be said for defense, can we expect an emitted, transmuted, manipulated statue to have higher defense than netero using reinforcement to defend himself considering the multiplier involved in this? Of course not. It is also worth noting that if netero is bedridden then the statue is also insanely limited because netero would have trouble praying. Ultimately, as long as netero can move the statue can never exceed regardless of how weak or strong he is. The statue is just nen, a reinforced attack or defense is the multiplied strength of netero's body. I don't see how it makes sense for the statue to ever exceed netero, the statue cannot have more defense than netero, the statue cannot have more offense than netero. This leads us back to an acquired specialization in which case the rules do not apply and the statue makes sense.
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

I think you're both stepping in two false assumptions:
1) Reinforcement can't reinforce Nen.
2) School have a cap learning.

And I said it before. Everything you're discussing become more logical taking these two points out of the equation, since it was never stated in the manga or hinted at.

Netero could have very well be Reinforcement and he fully reinforces the strength of the Statue. The Statue is materialized so it can actually hit and it uses manipulation trough prayers. Because it's a reinforced statue, it doesn't break each attack. Netero uses Emission to have it far away from him and still retain his power.
Even if Netero doesn't belong to any of these school, his training over Nen has not cap and when his body became weak (Let's say, because He can fall from an airplane with no damage) He developed a way to fight keeping the force somewhere: The statue. Probably in his prime He did not needed the statue to fight since its bones and muscles were enough to defeat almost everything.
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

School has to be capped or the whole affinity thing makes no sense. It'd be impossible to 'run out of capacity', so to speak, if you can simply train even more.

You should not be able to reinforce aura, otherwise you end up being able to reinforce a manipulation for better manipulation. That'd mean reinforcement can potentially be better at manipulation (or anything else) if it reinforced another school by enough, which makes no sense. I think it just happens most Reinforcement users can consume massive amount of AP at once, but that's not a property of the school. Gon's jajaken consumes 2-4K AP no matter which school he uses, which gives him a pretty significant edge if he was able to use all those schools well. But that's a property of the jajaken, not because he's a Reinforcement user.

What I mean is Netero has say, level 100 Reinforcement and level 80 Emission (at 80% the power compared to a true level 80 Emission) during his prime. This is within the limit of what is possible to learn.

In his prime, he has no reason to use Emission, and based on the flashback, he seems to do mostly hand-to-hand. During his prime, of course his Emission can't match his Reinforcement. Remember that absolutely no one we've seen in HXH that gave a testimoney to Netero's power is alive when Netero was in his prime. Even Zeno only knows of Netero as an old man since he was born, so the fact people say Kannon is his strongest move isn't contradictory, because no one has seen him in his prime.

However, Reinforcement is tied directly to your body, while other schools may be less dependent. I'm sure you decline some other ways too as you get old, but I'd think Reinforcement declines the fastest due to age. This isn't necessarily a bad thing since Reinforcement also gains the most while your body is at physical peak. For example if Shizuku got old, I doubt she'll be unable to vacuum anything. Maybe she can't keep the object materialized for as long, but I don't think the power itself declines. Gon can use paper without having an arm attached, while this is clearly impossible with rock, so I'd think Emission is likewise not as dependent on your body. To put in an extreme way, if your physical attack power is 0 (no arm), your Reinforcement anything has an attack power of 0. But I think we can imagine someone still doing an Emission attack without an arm. It might not be very effective either, but it's not going to be 0.

The numbers I pick are only for illustrative purposes, but I think it's reasonable to assume all schools declines slower than Reinforcement as a function of physical atrophy (and Reinforcement gains the most from physical superiority), so at this point of his life, Netero can deal more damage from other schools compared to his prime. He is ridiculously old so we shouldn't expect him to be able to fight enemies hand-to-hand anymore.

Although the Kannon is inefficient (not primary school), he's fighting guys where he has no chance of winning an endurance fight at all, so he can just concentrate on damage and ignore the inefficiency. You can pretty much say that if Netero's Zero doesn't take out his enemy, he's pretty much dead anyway. Presumably he always saves enough AP left to use the Zero, so the fact that he's wasting AP isn't a big deal. Netero clearly views Zero as his trump card, and whatever extra damage he got in before he had to use it is just a bonus. If the Zero failed to kill someone, do you really expect the regular Kannon hits to kill that guy?
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

I don't see where it makes no sense, actually, when it's completely logical o.O The cap is what makes no sense in the whole equation, actually.

And you can't reinforce the manipulation per se, but the thing you're manipulating. And that's where is your mistake lies, to think that you reinforce the school and not the technique.
 

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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Netero's prime is something like 50 or so years ago (when he wasn't an old man). It has to be the case that in those 50 years he never got any better at aura, or even if he did, it cannot outpace his physical decline. Otherwise the statement 'only 50% of my prime' would not make any sense. Even if you don't believe there's an actual cap, whatever level you're able to reach in your life time has to be an effective cap. Let's say Netero reached level 100 Reinforcement during his prime by training continously, then he cannot possibly go above level 80 Emission/Transformation either. If Netero can start over in life and say he decided to devote all his energy to learning Emission, it still shouldn't be possible for him to exceed level 80 in that. Otherwise why even have affinity at all?

Note that most characters in HXH never even come close to learning their theoractical cap, so it looks like they can improve. Gon, for example, is pretty bad at Emission and even worse at Transformation, so he's nowhere near whatever his cap is for those abilities and can improve in these fields with training. But eventually he'll still hit an absolute cap that represents the limit of his ability.
 
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